/lit/ - Literature

>>16975936
It is your choice to see the machine as evil.

>>16975936
Me after reading The Culture of Critique

>>16975936
I want to get into this insane frenetic schizo metaphysical-warrior sage conspiracy stuff. Where do I start? I’ve already read Plotinus and liked him

>>16976011
I too want to know

>>16976011
Take 500mg LSD and (when you peak) put on a headset playing noise music on full blast while wearing a blindfold for at least 2 hours.
Proceed down the reading list till you reach schizoanalysis, at which point you wont need any acid, music or blindfold anymore.

>>16976011
Read Valis, the Hypostasis of the Archons, the Gospel of Thomas and Monroe's Far Journeys

>>16976011
commence dump.
I unironically recommend reading holy scriptures before venturing here

>>16976011
I also personally recommend la-bas

>>16976011
Read Schelling, Goethe and Novalis.

Will reading these books stop making me a wagecuck?

>>16976030
sorry if I sound ignorant but what does christian mysticism actually go into?

>>16976011
Read Lucian, Herodotus and the Gnostic scripture.

>>16976030
it's kind of hard to explain, you'd have to read it. it goes into theology, basically.

>>16976136
meant to quote >>16976083

>tfw you will never mix powdered blood with semen and ashes and send a ghost to poison your enemy

>woah, art of memory really works, giordano bruno so cool
>oh nonononon

>>16976083
Broadly, the general goal is to get closer to God. What exactly that means varies thinker to thinker, to say nothing of HOW you even go about it.

It should be noted that this is the point of Jewish and Islamic mysticism as well.

>>16976011
None of you faggots are or ever will be warriors. You are the male equivalent of that girl who calls herself a witch.

>muh saturn
Just punch everything.

>>16976188
Esotericism is "I'm not like other girls" but for racists.

>>16976188
>>16976212
t. hylic

>>16976217
t. larper

>>16976221
cope

>>16976212
>>16976188
Fucking lol, how will these cucksotericists ever recover from this penetrative critique

>>16976217
Nigga I'm a schizo catholic myself, so these critiques could just be as easily applied to me.
Stop taking yourself so seriously.

>>16976212

>>16976882
Defending democracy in any way is retarded,pax

>>16976882
>>16976891
This is good until it gets to the racial soul reincarnation shit

>>16976897
I agree, only an individual soul has racial elements - there is no "collective soul" for any group, race included.

>>16976897
>>16976929
Care to explain both sides?
I haven't started reading into it yet.

>>16976929
>only an individual soul has racial elements
What if my cultural heritage is mixed between european catholic and oriental christian?

>>16976939
At least today, the idea of "collective souls" draws on the work of people like Jung or theosophy. The collective is necessarily quantitative and spirit is qualitative - an awakened spirit is perfectly united in oneness. A "collective soul" would require the dissolution of personality into an inferior rather than a superior (gnostic, enlightened etc) state.

>>16976891
>,pax
Pax Romana did not last forever,neither will democracy or egalitarianism or liberalism,the anti-christ is methaphorically real,and will be very similar to the first one.
All gods are real,to wish to be virtuous like an angel and deny gods with it's same virtues is retarded,all are in reality production of the human conscious

Gnosticism is kind of ''real'' too
>>16976897
I think the racial soul reincarnation thing is exaggerated too but ultimately true,will post it anyways
>>16976929
>>16976939
Read Jung,everything

The collective soul is very complex.
Religious experiences are real,anyone of any religion can have them,and they can be very meaningfull and even explain the future,dig deeper,the jews knew saturn had a hexagon,and nobody told them,it was natural for them.

>>16976095
a somewhat informative but misleading chart, especially on the subject of the races

The European races can be said to have overlaid too much emphasis on their own rationality, creating such a dire imbalance that they disconnect themselves from the spirit and get swamped in a trash heap of their own mental processes and can't see anything beyond it; their own societies reflect it

None of this is true and you guys know it

>>16976967
Read "Synthesis on the Doctrine of Race" by Evola if you are interested and can find an English translation. Your case will have its own specific nature and I don't have the tools or information to give you the right answers.

>>16976198
>good image
>jpg artifact
>FB_IMG
anon...

>>16976968
Not the same guy.
What I've gathered from reading about esoteric traditions is that there are two main views on soteriology: one is the return to the whole (neoplatonism, platonism, all abrahamic religions, hinduism, arguably buddhism) and is the most popular theory, the other is the whole returning to the individual, or put another way the transcendence of the self (this is gnosticism).

Why were gnostics the only ones to have that theory?
personally, I'm more attracted to the gnostic view, but that may be because I'm scared to let go of my ego and sense of self. But I'm really interested in knowing more about these opposed soteriologies. How do you work towards one while avoiding the other?

>>16976987
>Your case will have its own specific nature
Does Evola give the tools to figure out that nature? Or does it just mean that being mixed basically makes you a hylic?

>>16976998
Well a mixed cultural heritage is a very individual thing. Mixed ethnicity can be more straightforward. Generally, in that book Evola examines the Italian case but you can apply a lot of his methodology to your own individual case too, I am sure.
Mixed heritage does not make you a hylic, but it can make it more difficult for you to attain inner harmony, balance and form. It certainly isn't a fatal roadblock. The Buddha himself in all likelihood had significant foreign admixture yet he is one of the most resplendent sages in history.
>>16976994
Are you referring to monism and dualism? As in, trying to go beyond the self or working within the confines of the self to attain the transcendent?

>>16976972
Hitler,Mohhamed,and Genghis Khan,Wotan(literally meaning murder frenzy) were all possesed by the same archetype,you could even go to say they did not own their own souls,collectives of people projected their ideas onto them.

Your ancestors morals have a powerfull impact on wether you can be a mentally sane degenerate or not,the Jungian concept of shadow comes along.
The reason the lgbt comunity

In this case,the racial soul might seem disproven,but sub saharan africans cannot create a messiah of ''aryan'' nationalism,and neither can the deutch create one of kang ultra-nationalism

The racial soul is but a smaller aspect of the collective consciousness,Euros have no right to exterminate/mix anyone,but neither does anyone to Euros
4chan is a collective too,social media too.

>>16977016
>it can make it more difficult for you to attain inner harmony, balance and form
Even if the two parts of my heritage have similar spiritual roots (both christianity)? In essence the only difference is geographic, not really racial (central europe vs. the levant).

>>16976011
Just read Pynchon

>>16977026

>>16977016
>Are you referring to monism and dualism?
I don't know, am I? I'm saying that methods of enlightenment like moksha and henosis subscribe to the "droplet reuniting with the ocean" narrative, while gnosis is the only method which does the opposite and says that the droplet basically absorbs the entire ocean, or something like that. I'm struggling to explain it well, maybe someone who knows more about gnosticism can chime in, but I was wondering why gnosticism was so different from other traditions and what different methods gnosis entailed since it's clearly not the same as other doctrines of enlightenment.

>>16976039
Why are these charts allowed and reposted?
No one has read Jahresringe by Plassmann for example because it's simply not available outside of 4 libraries in Germany.
Does anyone actually work with these things?

>>16976188
But I am a girl uWu

>>16976011
David Icke

>>16976072
I would like to learn more about Philo of Alexandria. What are some good intros to his work or his most essential work?

>>16977030
>Even if the two parts of my heritage have similar spiritual roots (both christianity)?
It's complicated. Consult this post if you'd like: >>16973572
>In essence the only difference is geographic, not really racial (central europe vs. the levant).
Evola would consider this a racial difference between the Indo-European and Semitic component.
>>16977051
Gnosticism isn't my strong point, but there's multiple different and equally valid ways to approach transcendence. What perspective is taken - the infinite looking to abolish the human obscuring it or the human awakening the infinite within itself - boils down to how suitable the perspective is for the practitioner and his goals.

>>16977124
>there's multiple different and equally valid ways to approach transcendence.
Then the difference between seeking to go back to the source and seeking to assimilate the source into yourself is, in the end, of no consequence and leads to the same place?
>the human awakening the infinite within itself
This appeals to me far more but I'm not sure where to proceed from here.
You mention goals, but isn't transcendence itself the goal?

>>16976188
Esoteric people are on the schizo spectrum, astrology witch girls are BPD.

>>16977052
Those charts are mostly made by people who havent even read the books and just like the aesthetic. That's why half of them are have inconsistent quality and many of the listed books contradict each other.

>>16977149
>Then the difference between seeking to go back to the source and seeking to assimilate the source into yourself is, in the end, of no consequence and leads to the same place?
If I am understanding you correctly, then yes. It is worth noting that this is still referring to spiritual concepts. For example, in Buddhism you scrub off the human part in order to reveal the divine beneath. In Kundalini Yoga, which poses the opposite principle, you awaken a divine energy within yourself which then proceeds to gradually scrub off the human self (though not in some Hollywoodesque brainwashing fashion as many people seem to think). The perspective varies, but in all cases the animal ego remains an obstacle, though sometimes also a vehicle. The attempt to tame divine powers for the use of the animal ego itself is called Red Magic and it's considered a degenerate practice.

>>16977048
please explain these numbers: 777, 888, 333

>>16976082
no. It's only for the elite or for those otherwise outside of the daily grind for money.

>>16976082
If you count becoming a hermit as an end to wage slavery, yes.

>>16977265
I'm considering doing this though. I'm financially independent and could live very frugally without working

>>16977215
Where can I learn more about this?

>>16977296
I've read most of Evola's books which is where I get this from. The particular bit on Red Magic is from the Yoga of Power, iirc, though I may be wrong. Guenon and the rest of the Traditionalist school are also worthwhile reads.

>>16977207
it's more like a curated library from which you can choose a book to read but ok. obiously no one has read every single one of those book. unlikely, at least.

>>16977312
Is the traditionalist path to enlightenment the only viable path?

>>16977124
>Evola would consider this a racial difference between the Indo-European and Semitic component.
And what is the spiritual implication of this? In the post you linked to, you say that the environment takes part in shaping the soul. So in the end, one of the components overtakes the other, yes?

>>16977124
>So looking at things from Evola's perspective, it might be possible to bring up a central African in a way that allows him to develop a northern european "race of the soul", but his race of the body or spirit would still be central African. This would lead to a splitting and loss of cohesion, vitality and identity in the person in question, since his body and spirit will not fit his soul properly. Evola considers all three aspects of race together rather than individually.
Wow this is literally me, how do I cope with being born a shitskin but always try to act white?

>schizo occult rambling
>brings up race out of nowhere
Like clockwork.

>>16977333
Well, the Traditionalists aren't the only ones with a claim on canonical works. Hermeticism, the Rosicrucians etc all have their own path to enlightenment. The Traditionalists just try to compile every viable tradition into a united field of research. Personally, I distrust the vast majority of "occultists" etc. unless the Traditionalists have a positive opinion of them.
Anyway, to return to the topic at hand, you could definitely attain enlightenment with Buddhism, Kundalini Yoga, Hermeticism or any other tradition without ever reading or calling yourself a Traditionalist.
>>16977351
All manifestations in this world are composites, but one or the other ideal type will generally be expected to prevail, yes. We live in extraordinary times though, so the influences of mass media may and mass culture may have totally undermined your organic development and substituted your expected upbringing with a totally different character. It's a difficult matter and you should do your own research into this topic if you are serious about it.
As to the spiritual implications, the Semitic ideal type espouses lunar spirituality and the Indo-European one espouses solar spirituality. To give some examples, Buddhism is a solar tradition because it finds the divine within itself, not outside itself. European paganism is similar - the Romans viewed themselves as equals to their gods. Lunar spirituality would be something like Christianity or Islam, where the divine is identified explicitly outside man. As you might have guessed, the moon revolves around a center it lacks, whereas the sun is itself the center and is sufficient within itself. What the spiritual implications would be in your specific case depends on your specific circumstances in regards to your race of the soul and race of the spirit.
>>16977373
Honestly don't know desu, when I try to think about this topic it just hurts my brain. The best I can recommend is if you are interested in spirituality you might want to try your hand at esoteric traditions and see if you can attain enlightenment - enlightenment nullifies all profane factors so in it you will find wholeness, completion and freedom.
>>16977383
Is it really out of nowhere, bro? Besides, what's wrong with talking about race? Just because it drives normies and spergs into a frenzy in various ways doesn't mean it's unworthy of discussion.

>>16977466
>see if you can attain enlightenment
How are you supposed to know when you're actually enlightened?

>>16977484
>How are you supposed to know when you're actually enlightened?
You'll know when you get there. The form enlightenment takes depends on the tradition you follow. For example, Kundalini Yoga has very clear stages that can be observed by a vigilant practitioner.

>>16977523
Diving into the traditions has given me more knowledge on what they consist in, but hasn't given me clues on which one I should actually follow. I'm hitting some kind of invisible wall where there are many options and none of them seem either attractive or unattractive.

>>16977466
>I distrust the vast majority of "occultists" etc. unless the Traditionalists have a positive opinion of them.
What did they have to say about Gnosticism in particular? I recall Guenon was interested in it at some point but eventually moved on to something else.

>>16976011
A bunch of Jung, and Nikola Tesla's essays are of comparable vibe

>>16977466
>What the spiritual implications would be in your specific case depends on your specific circumstances in regards to your race of the soul and race of the spirit.
Should I trust my gut feeling on this or is that too shallow a judgment?

if you understand German this guy is pretty interesting (his fanbase is full of New Age retards but he is immensely knowledgeable about Bruno, Goethe and German Idealism and supports a cosmology based on the anima mundi)
https://www.youtube.com/c/JochenKirchhoff

>>16977532
I know exactly what you are talking about, I am the same way. I've currently settled on Kundalini Yoga and am going to try to get something done with that. I'll probably mix it up with Hermeticism later. If that doesn't work, I'll have to pursue another path. You just have to look for what is available, accessible and convenient for you - if you can find a good spiritual teacher, even better. So long as you keep walking forward, you will be able to do the best your destiny can provide.
>>16977545
I am not very well read on Gnosticism. I think Evola preferred Neoplatonism because he disliked the messianic aspect of Gnosticism, but don't quote me on that. In either case, I believe it's a regular and reliable spiritual tradition, though I can't vouch for the degree of its effectiveness as I lack information on the topic.
>>16977592
I don't know, anon. I have had a similar dilemma to yours, but it feels like my "gut feeling" is just whatever I am leaning towards at any given moment. Sometimes, defeatist or arrogant tendencies try to manifest themselves in the field of emotions and instinct in order to control you. If you can rigorously analyse your gut feeling and why you feel in such and such a way, your findings will certainly be worth keeping into consideration. I can't help you with anything beyond that, since this is something only you can figure out.

>>16977645
How do you find a good teacher? Not specifically for Kundalini but for any tradition in general.
If you can't find a teacher, what should be the plan then?

>>16977699
>How do you find a good teacher? Not specifically for Kundalini but for any tradition in general.
"Trust your heart" is what I keep hearing over and over. Also, make sure to see what kind of person your would-be teacher is. A lot of emphasis was put on knowing what you're getting into in premodern societies.
>If you can't find a teacher, what should be the plan then?
Well, you do what I'm doing right now lol. Read books on esotericism and try to consistently practice certain techniques until you get results.

>>16976198
>>16976990
Here's non-shit quality of that image, I don't know what the fuck anon did to download that specifically. Ironically, I had to end up on actual Facebook to get this full-quality one.

>>16977978
>>16975936
Where is most of that Saturn shit coming from anyway?

>>16977048
Imagine putting so munch time and effort into this shitty pretentious picture that is wrong in so many levels.
I bet the guy who created this wish he had people sucking his dick on twitter, but since hes a bitter pseud, making this shitty meme and posting everywhere is a good way of coping.

>>16978644
I'm certain that if it wasn't mentioning race you wouldn't bat an eyelid.

>>16976011
Join a mosque and after isha hang around with the hairiest young men you can find. Inshallah it'll happen for you anon.

>>16977373
Read Spengler and realize that the physical form of physical races are just raw materials for spiritual civilization-spirits to imprint themselves onto, and that all people white brown or black are part of the same mass produced globohomo ethnic sludge.

Then move to the forest and the mountains and eat a lot of raw meat and practice tantric meditation my king.

>>16976891
It looks like the consciousness influencing RNG is completely false, at least, I read every study I could on it and then read later meta-analyses and such and it seemed statistically insignificant or due to selection bias

>>16977265
>>16977288
So, being a filthy hobo?

>>16977226
>>16979333

>>16975936
Philosophy WILL ruin your life

>>16979391
What if you read it with a completely skeptic attitude bordering on pyrrhonism?

>>16976030
this list is pretty interesting me

>>16976011
Jump to hermeticism then to gnosticism

>>16976048
This one is legit

>>16976011
I mean you could join us and Jesus Christ with the Bible.

>>16976011
watch a bunch of anime and think about everything like it's anime

>>16976011
For the magic side of Neoplatontism
Iamblichus, On the Mysteries.
The Chaldean Oracles
Ficino, The Platonic Theology
Bruno, On Magic

>>16976011
Read and understand life, read and understand books. Live life, and don't depend on drugs for this, only they may help you sometimes but never do it to "experience the spirit for the first time."

>>16976082
You'll keep on wageslaving but might end up finding your passion

>>16976083
Basicaly the Plato dialogs and reaching god throught meditation like every serious religion does

>>16976994
Imo the trascendence of the gnostics was to be one with the monad through working on the individuality

>>16976011
High doses of stimulants and sleep deprivation mimics schizophrenia. If you're predisposed to schizophrenia, stimulants and sleep deprivation can actually trigger latent schizo tendencies.

You want to visit hell? Be my guest, faggot.

>>16976973
>>The European races can be said to have overlaid too much emphasis on their own rationality
Agreed. They degenerated from the exaltation of the Logos of God to the Logic of Man.

>>16977112
Go to 275

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www2.uned.es/dpto-hdi/History%2520of%2520Non-dual%2520Meditation%2520Methods.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiQy4LK87_tAhWoGbkGHfOiCgoQFjAHegQIGBAB&usg=AOvVaw0jpNf3KxtAPQxjhBJviBN9

>>16976188
I'm in awe

>>16976030
>Christian Mythology list
>Doesn't include the fucking Bible
For what purpose

>>16978644
So tell us why it's so wrong and mistaken. Undergo the trouble for us.

>>16977466
>Besides, what's wrong with talking about race
It has little importance, should talk about culture instead. And western culture has been grossly materialistic for centuries. America was the beginning of the end.

>>16978729
Thats the point. The creator included muh racial spirit so the meme would spread.

>>16981804
Fantastic way to look in the mirror and not recognize yourself and not even understand who this so called [your name] is.

>>16977226
please explain THESE numbers

>>16976011
If you're into podcasts listen to Aubrey Marcus or Duncan Trussel

>>16976096
"Otto Rahn"?
the same Otto Rahn that joined the SS despite being vocally against the regime as well as a flagrant homosexual, who was discharged and died under mysterious circumstances shortly after?

>>16976011
The post, the replies. Muah. Perfection.

One psychotic episode is all it takes to exit the matrix, but it could easily ruin your life too

>>16982757

333 Girl, maiden (παΐδισκη)
333 The hope (η ελπις)
333 Excess (1 Corinthians 7:5) (ακρασια )
333 Wantonness, dispersion (ακολασία)

777 The cross (σταυρός)

888 Jesus (Ιησούς)
888 I am the Life (η ζωη ειμί)
888 Hated by the gods (δυσθεος)
888 Excessively mighty (υπερμενης)

>>16983442
thanks for this.

I feel there must be more to 333 at the very least- I saw that number referenced in many ocult works and used in phrases in occult groups and forums, yet they never reply when I ask what it refers to. Wantonness, dispersion might make most sense from the context I see that number used.

Occultism is quite confusing.

>>16976011
read the oration on the dignity of man, but make sure you read the borghesi, papio, riva translation, the other one sucks
people are recommending hermes, but the corpus hermeticum didn't really make sense until it was edited by an orthodox scholar. it's interesting, although i wouldn't jump right to it just because it's well known
>>16976030
if you (or anyne else) are going to read christian mysticism, i would start with something like in the shadow of the temple by oskar skarsaune so you have a decent understanding of early christianity. be especially aware of kabbalistic influences, they are important

>>16981795
>be one with the monad
Not really

>>16976030
naah

>>16983523
>removing Meister Eckhart

>>16975936
You only need to read Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius. Nietzsche's ideas about the superman and overcoming nihilism are also good, but his works can be difficult to digest.

Cynics are the god tier philosophers, though.

>>16983689
midwit take

>>16976019
>just turn yourself into tao lin

no lmao

>>16982237
While I think people can reincarnate into other races,making racial supremacy icky,I also believe in the racial soul,and that race mixing fucking sucks
This comic is great,bumping it.
>>16976882
>>16976891
>>16976972
>>16977026
>>16977048

>>16983785
Varg theorizes that the soul of each race is on its own path as it progresses throughout reincarnation and if you racemix that child born out of it will have a new soul with no experience and has to start from the very beginning without any wisdom.

Hmmmmm.

>>16983818
What constitutes racemixing? Is a northern european fucking an indian, a russian or a turk not racemixing because they're all caucasoids? Or is there a cultural criterion? Seems shoddy to me

>>16983838
I can't remember the context of this quote, but I assume he emans the major races, not the many ethnicities therein.

I think he might be onto something (->Carl Jung), but it needs to be fleshed out more.

>>16983855
>the major races
Then caucasoid, mongoloid and negroid?
Isn't it quite arbitrary? There's as much of a cultural gap between an european and a chinese than between an european and an arab or a hindu despite the latter being the same "race"

>>16983870
I'd argue that Hindu religion is quite compatible with the European pagan streams, but I'd be out of my depth there. Arabs didn't seem to be so different to Europeans before Mohammed.

As I said it needs to be fleshed out more. The brain is, in my opinion, the main driver of who we are and evolution has optimized our brains in certain ways. Race sthat evolved apart from each others surely could be argued to come into teh world with different neuronal patterns, apriori knowledge, subconscious dream worlds and most importantly the collective unconsciousness by Jung. Those might be possible approaches to that question. I can't really answer it.

>>16983896
>I'd argue that Hindu religion is quite compatible with the European pagan streams
What about Buddhism?
Also, if we're talking about the collective unconscious, I'd argue that Christianity has a stronger influence now than pagan traditions.

>>16983870
most esoteric, occult, new age cosmological assertions are just so. even plato is like that

>>16982253
the both of you misunderstand racial spirit

>>16976188
Yeah... Dugin and Bannon sure are LARPers for someone in power

>>16983902
Why should Buddhism not be compatible.
Christianity has changed considerable since it reached Europe. Kept many pagan elements and became something more European with the neoplatonism and mystic interpretations of it. At the end Christianity is now fading away. Maybe it never quite gripped our hearts as much as the faith we gave birth to. Somehow there's always a pull to the old OG stuff or the mystic interpretations.

It is impossible to surely know, like all things that are esoteric in nature. It's full of footnotes of the nature of "this was revealed to me in a dream" and one has to experience such revelations oneself, meditate deeply or otherwise have faith and do the leap of said faith.

>>16983956
>Why should Buddhism not be compatible.
It's often said that it's incompatible with the western mentality, which leads it to get butchered by mistaken interpretations.
>Christianity is now fading away
Is it, though? Also, Islam is getting a lot of converts in Europe, yet it's not being modified with European pagan elements like Christianity was.
>one has to experience such revelations oneself, meditate deeply or otherwise have faith and do the leap of said faith.
Yes, but those things require to choose a path in the first place.

>>16983956
a thing to add: the worst part of Christianity is the lack of reincarnation.

>>16983918
Nobody takes him seriously in Russia, but it's laughable that you think the larpers on this board are comparable to a legit Schizo like Dugin.

>>16983971
Why?

>>16982237
>It has little importance, should talk about culture instead.
Of course you will think it is of little importance if you dismiss it a priori. To talk of culture as a concept distinct from race is nonsensical anyway.
>>16983838
>>16983870
Depends on who you are reading. Personally, I think there's no point in reading about race if you don't view Indo-Europeans as a distinct category.
>>16983971
No it isn't. A more apt criticism would be the limitation of the horizons to that of the "individual soul", but reincarnation as a doctrine is wrong.

>>16984202
>reincarnation as a doctrine is wrong.
Could you explain?

>>16984208
The concept of reincarnation belongs to telluric earth cults who lack true experience of spirituality. It's the idea of coming from the earth and going back to the earth, rather than the heavens (symbol of the divine). This is confirmed by examining the specifics of reincarnation. What is there that can be reincarnated? Certainly not the individual personality, which is dependent on contingent factors and is lost upon death. It also can not be a superior, divine, spiritual principle, which is not limited to material form and therefore can not be said to "reincarnate" - it simply individuates itself in various forms. The only way to make sense of reincarnation is to conceive of it in a quantitative, collective, material sense - the natural cycle of life, where the death of one leads to the birth of another; eternal reproduction of temporary beings.

>>16984291
>the death of one leads to the birth of another; eternal reproduction of temporary beings.
Isn't that the way Buddhists conceive of Samsara though?
Either way, assuming you believe there is a superior principle that makes up the higher self, are you saying it necessarily exits the material plane upon death to enter whichever higher realms you believe in? Then why did that principle come here in the first place?

>>16984311
>Isn't that the way Buddhists conceive of Samsara though?
Yes, though I would also levy part of this criticism against Buddhism - there is no "cycle of reincarnation" to escape from, since you'll dissolve on death unless you attain Nirvana. The reincarnation part seems to have been tacked on later in order to assuage the worries of normies.
>Either way, assuming you believe there is a superior principle that makes up the higher self, are you saying it necessarily exits the material plane upon death to enter whichever higher realms you believe in?
I would rather not comment on this until I experience this for myself. Maybe not even then. Certainly, once freed from the human form it is associated with, this higher principle abandons material reality totally - if it returns to the One or not, I can not say. The writers I read have proposed that in the normal case this principle is too distorted from the time it has spent on earth, so is reduced to a type of larval, Hades-like afterlife. If that still constitutes a return to the One, again, I can not say.
>Then why did that principle come here in the first place?
I don't know. Some competent people claim that if you advance far enough down the road of spirituality, you can remember why you personally chose to come here. I don't think anyone has a general answer as to why. Most of our pre-life and post-life memory is completely off limits while we are on this earth, so even if there is a general answer it will probably only be available to us after our bodies die - if our spirits are strong enough to survive without a body, that is.

>>16984346
>you'll dissolve on death unless you attain Nirvana
But Buddhism says you already are in Nirvana, it's just that you are also in Samsara.
>this higher principle abandons material reality totally
Although it can't be constrained by material reality, nothing indicates that it's free of immaterial constraints. This alone could be used as a case for reincarnation.
>The writers I read
>Some competent people
Who are they? I'm interested in reading more about that subject.
>if our spirits are strong enough to survive without a body
And this is the point of spiritual cultivation through the pursuit of an ideal of enlightenment, right?
Although if only the people who've reached enlightenment get to not be dissolved at death, this makes everything quite bleak

>>16984371
>But Buddhism says you already are in Nirvana, it's just that you are also in Samsara.
Does it say that? If we are already in Nirvana, why do we need to attain it? I think that unless you are referring to some specific school I am unfamiliar with, you've misunderstood something, anon.
>Although it can't be constrained by material reality, nothing indicates that it's free of immaterial constraints. This alone could be used as a case for reincarnation.
The highest divine principle itself is free of all constraints. It is what we call "the One", the Absolute, the Unmanifest, the Unconditional etc. It is beyond all dualism and therefore has everything within its power.
>Who are they? I'm interested in reading more about that subject.
The particular book I am referring to is Evola's "Introduction to Magic". The title is a bit sensationalist, but it deals with some esoteric doctrines and practices.
>And this is the point of spiritual cultivation through the pursuit of an ideal of enlightenment, right?
Yes. The aim of initiation and spiritual enlightenment is a "return to the origin" - you "die" while you are still alive, so that your spirit will be immune to death when your body perishes.
>Although if only the people who've reached enlightenment get to not be dissolved at death, this makes everything quite bleak
There are various opportunities that can be pursued for existence after death, but I am not qualified to talk about them. For example, Evola once mentioned that even the Calvinist attitude of a life lived on the brink between salvation and damnation can, if lived to the utmost limit, lead to a survival after death, though on quite different terms from something like enlightenment or initiation.

>>16983689
cynics aren't.
Sceptics are, sceptics who see truth but are wise enough to be unsure.

A cynic is no different than somebody who says "nobody can really know so why bother?" A PICKLE! ONIONS MASON!

>>16984402
>If we are already in Nirvana, why do we need to attain it?
I think the point isn't to attain Nirvana but to see through the illusion and thus break free of Samsara. I might be saying complete nonsense though since this is mainly stuff I read on this board.
>The highest divine principle itself is free of all constraints.
Yes, but we're not this principle, are we? Not yet, at least.
There could be "steps" between material reality and what you call the One.
>Introduction to Magic
Does he talk about people choosing to come here? This is something I've only heard from new age speakers up to now so I'm surprised that the traditionalists might've introduced the concept.
Making an individual choice also implies that the self after death is not undifferentiated from the One.
> you "die" while you are still alive, so that your spirit will be immune to death when your body perishes
Yes, this is the typical perennial symbol of death and rebirth and of the initiatic journey, but some paths towards this must be better than others, right?
>various opportunities
Have they been compiled or documented, or just mentioned in passing?

>>16975936
No, the machine must continue to turn at all costs.

>>16984468
t. Archon

>>16976011
>try to write down my beliefs
>lol can't be hard
>it all sounds like a toddler overdosed on mescaline

>>16984402
>you "die" while you are still alive, so that your spirit will be immune to death when your body perishes.
Is that ego death? Is the psychedelic experience good then?

could someone rec some books, i currently believe there is no soul or no "conscious" afterlife, im interested in lucid dreaming and would like to feel connected to the world and as if there is something more to me than physiology

>>16984540
Robert Waggoner - Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self

Stephen LaBerge - Lucid Dreaming: A Concise Guide to Awakening in Your Dreams and in Your Life

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche - The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep

>>16984575
Lucid dreams or astral projection are still part of the subtle body, so what comes after?

>>16984575
will any of these also resolve my problem of not believing in a soul?

>>16976011
>>16976019
This is how I did it anon. Not entirely fun.

>>16984448
>I think the point isn't to attain Nirvana but to see through the illusion and thus break free of Samsara. I might be saying complete nonsense though since this is mainly stuff I read on this board.
You might want to read deeper into it. I think what you are saying lines up a lot more closely with Guenonfag's Shankara stuff. There are similarities with Buddhism, but obviously when it comes to Nirvana, you either have attained it or you haven't. It's a state of being.
>Yes, but we're not this principle, are we? Not yet, at least.
You are and you aren't. That principle is intermixed with material trash, so it doesn't manifest properly. It's like a gold coin debased with bronze. As soon as you separate the gold from the admixture, you will become recognise your true nature. This is the exact symbolism the Hermetic alchemists used, too.
>There could be "steps" between material reality and what you call the One.
There's the Mysteries of Life and the Mysteries of the Eternal. Technically speaking, you could tap into a deeper vital force (and probably will on your way to the spirit), but that vital force is not itself the spirit.
>Does he talk about people choosing to come here?
I am not sure where exactly he discussed that, I think he had a passage on that in Ride the Tiger, particularly the chapter on Death.
>This is something I've only heard from new age speakers up to now so I'm surprised that the traditionalists might've introduced the concept.
New Age is a mixed bag. Usually they take health foundations and subvert them into some dreadful form.
>Making an individual choice also implies that the self after death is not undifferentiated from the One.
As far as I understand it, it both is and is not. It's better not to speculate on these things unless you have direct knowledge, so I try to not maintain any specific position on it. Still, I think one possible reason we come here is to individuate ourselves - the One manifests as the specific one, which can then rejoin the whole with its newfound sense of its individuality. I am not sure about that, though.
>Yes, this is the typical perennial symbol of death and rebirth and of the initiatic journey, but some paths towards this must be better than others, right?
What works best for you is the best path for you. I am still trying to figure out mine.
>Have they been compiled or documented, or just mentioned in passing?
They have been documented, but it is best not to speculate about them. The Tibetan Book of the Dead deals with the various option that an ascetic will face. Evola analyses that. Introduction to Magic also expounds some views regarding the fate of the soul after death, as do various doctrines like Buddhism for example. Buddhists believed that the "bad ending" of Buddhist ascesis could result in the negative conclusion of achieving godhood (mastery over the realm of being) rather than nirvana (mastery of both being and nonbeing).

>>16984488
>Is that ego death?
Depends on what you mean by that. A lot of contemporary spiritualists refer to something different than what was traditionally meant. For example, Eckhart Tolle has experienced ego death and an awareness of the communal and all encompassing life force that flows in all human beings, but that's not the same as achieving enlightenment or initiation - it's a considerably lesser achievement that he's confused for the real thing. Similarly, apart from tapping into this force, another possible confusion is the identification of the self as everything rather than the self beyond anything. Think pantheism versus monism.
>Is the psychedelic experience good then?
What I mentioned just now also crops up here. Drugs can be useful for spiritual enlightenment, but they are typically strongly discouraged. Their function is to dissolve the personality - a spiritually adept person will be aided by them since they will remove some of the material baggage weighing him down. A spiritually unaware person will undergo the inverse of that and will fall down to a lower plane, since he has no higher awareness to ascend to but will instead have his normal awareness flattened.

>>16984672
>when it comes to Nirvana, you either have attained it or you haven't.
Would you say that all doctrines of enlightenment are different? I know the Hindus disagree with the Buddhists for example and that Moksha isn't the same as Nirvana. Christianity doesn't seem to have enlightenment except in some Orthodox circles, Gnosis being its own (extinct) thing.
Yet are all of these the same when you actually get to achieve them?
>recognise your true nature
I'm still not sure what is meant by that when I read about it, some make it sound like a pantheist return to the source, others say its not that at all. I'll assume it's something that cannot really be explained but has to be fully experienced.
> that vital force is not itself the spirit.
What I meant is more like the (new age?) concept of densities, or maybe the Kabbalist idea of the path of spheres. Buddhism and Hinduism also have that idea of there being several realms, some above the material, some below it, that you might pass through at some point.
>New Age is a mixed bag
You mean there are good things in it?
The thing I find interesting is seeing detailed reports of near-death experiencers explaining what they went through. I'm guessing this is related to what you call the "vital force" subordinate to the true spirit.
> rejoin the whole with its newfound sense of its individuality.
How do you rejoin a whole while being an individual, that sounds like a contradiction no?
>I am still trying to figure out mine
What makes you hesitate?
>it is best not to speculate about them
Well if they've been written about, I'm thinking it must be good to at least have them in mind to prepare for what'll inevitably come.

>>16984718
>Yet are all of these the same when you actually get to achieve them?
All authentic doctrines of enlightenment are different, but they all lead to equivalent qualifications. Even Christianity can lead to enlightenment, it is just a very unwieldy and unsuitable doctrine for that. The Orthodox concept of Theosis is just that - it is simply very difficult to achieve and in its theistic version artificially restricts the monk. So long as the monk believes himself to simply connect to, rather than become one with the divine, he will find his powers limited and horizons restricted.
>I'm still not sure what is meant by that when I read about it, some make it sound like a pantheist return to the source, others say its not that at all. I'll assume it's something that cannot really be explained but has to be fully experienced.
It is something that you have to experience, but you should beware of pantheism. Pantheism consecrates all differentiated forms, whereas in reality the sacred element precedes all form. Pantheism leads to confusion and decay.
>What I meant is more like the (new age?) concept of densities, or maybe the Kabbalist idea of the path of spheres.
Kabbalah is a legitimate tradition. I don't know about New Age, but depending on what you mean by densities, then that can be a legitimate concept, too. Traditions typically have milestones that you achieve along your way to the ultimate goal - this can be considered as you gradually abandoning attachment, "density" or "multiplicity".
>Buddhism and Hinduism also have that idea of there being several realms, some above the material, some below it, that you might pass through at some point.
I would need to know exactly what you are referring to in order to address it. If it's a purely theistic concept then it may not be of interest.
>You mean there are good things in it?
I am currently reading a New Age book. It includes legitimate techniques, but all of the dogma is subversive, which I can recognise of because of my Traditionalist background. Make of that what you wish.
>The thing I find interesting is seeing detailed reports of near-death experiencers explaining what they went through. I'm guessing this is related to what you call the "vital force" subordinate to the true spirit.
That would depend on the specific case. Some might gain an insight into that, others might gain an insight into something more. Technically, every time you are in danger you get a taste of the vital force. If you are observant, you can probably feel it in your body right now, if you try.
>How do you rejoin a whole while being an individual, that sounds like a contradiction no?
The analogy I give here might be improper in some ways, but think of it this way - does a drop of water "disappear" and cease to be when it rejoins the ocean? Some will say yes, others will say no. I think both are possible depending on the perspective. Enlightenment is also at its core a deep, holistic awakening to a new perspective.

>>16984718
>What makes you hesitate?
It's hard to find something that:
A) works
B) is sustainable
I also struggle to identify my strong points and weak points. Each tradition has a different methodology, some more effective for one kind of people and others for a different kind. I don't know what fits me.
>Well if they've been written about, I'm thinking it must be good to at least have them in mind to prepare for what'll inevitably come.
That's the mindset the Tibetan monks used as well. Just make sure not to get attached to speculative images. At any rate, the more important part is to make sure you can grow spiritually before you die.

>>16983818
>Varg theorizes
Whelp. Guess I can't believe in the racial soul anymore.

>>16983838
The idea or the racial soul is complex,the only thing that people seemingly agree on is that racemixing is bad,I think racemixing simplifies man,where as europe succeded because it wasn't one empire,but because it was split in 100 states,all with different ambitions,dreams,and claims.
>uuhh actaullehh social reason historical events etc..
I am not contradicting that,only adding another layer.
Countries like Japan sat in isolation for long periods of time,they are still east asian,but have developed very differently to the rest of their neighbours.
I mean in theory we could specifically have a country for racemixed people like another anon memed about,I don't think that would be a bad idea,nor do I think racemixed people are inferior,since noone is 100% pure unless he's a habsburg.
>>16983870
Read Carl Jungs analysis of Hitler,it's somewhat related.
Carl Jung also has some quotes about jews being nomads,so that might be tied.
Religion also plays a big part,I agree that the euro and indos are closesly related,but the semite peoples,like the arabs and jews are very different,maybe not genetically but spiritually.
I also think language matters,as symbols are very powerfull,even the arhitecture around you will have both subconscious and conscious impact,and the powerfull symbols of today,even company logos,tend to be tied to past ones.

>>16983855
>need to be fleshed out more
I agree,I am sure another anons could find different spiritual reasons as to why racemixing is bad,I just think it's related to how close the people were,a swede and a dane is technically racemixing but no way they aren't genetically the same already
On a close level like this,culture plays a bigger role.
>>16984311
>afterlife
I tought that ''chose your afterlife'' was a meme for a long time,I don't think there is any logical way to disprove it.
If you say,become a hero people tell tales to children to, a archetype is created from you,the archetype is not you,the archetype is what people think of you and project into you.
You still die,but your childs subconscious will ''remember'' your deeds,and continue to develop,if people think the same and worship the same god,have the same virtues,and don't mix with people that say inherited different virtues,people should gravitate towards having the same subconscious morality,desires,and ambitions of their ancestors.
Once again,pretty sure Jung talks about something similar.

>>16984787
I'm interested in >>16984600 if you can answer it.
>Kabbalah is a legitimate tradition
Is it as ethnically closed-off as mainstream judaism is to gentiles?
>depending on what you mean by densities
Well, the new age idea is that it's like layers of an onion, material reality being described by some as the third density, dreams and the astral as the fourth, reunion with the higher self as the fifth, etc. There are more details but that's the basic idea.
It implies the abandonment of detachment you're talking about, but it's not just a metaphor.
>know exactly what you are referring to
Well for example, you brought up the Tibetan book of the dead, which says there are six realms I think. Tibetan buddhists don't believe in Pure Land as far as I know, but some Mahayana believers would also add the Buddhas' Pure Lands to the list of other realms.
Sure, it is a theistic concept, but it's also one that is recurring throughout most if not all religions. Hinduism has the Lokas, Sufi cosmology has other realms as well though I'm not familiar with them.
>I am currently reading a New Age book
Which one?
I'm thinking I should indeed become familiar with the Traditionalist school before continuing with spirituality, it looks like it provides useful tools to reach your goals more efficiently.
>does a drop of water "disappear" and cease to be when it rejoins the ocean?
The answer that comes to my mind is that it becomes the ocean by being stripped of its individuality. If I extend the analogy to enlightenment then what constitutes the individuality of the self? Personality?
>>16984796
>is sustainable
How do you mean?
>identify my strong points and weak points
Wouldn't you have an easier time by seeking out the guidance of someone from a tradition that you at least acknowledge as valuable, even if you don't know if it's the right one for you?

>>16984824
>the semite peoples,like the arabs and jews are very different,maybe not genetically but spiritually
you mean that jews and arabs are different, or that semites are different from indo-europeans?

>>16984917
Jews and arabs are genetically the same,or atleast they were until the jews migrated everywhere.
The arab languagge is a semitic language.
Semites should be different from indo-euros,but there is are a lot of conspiracies,I meant aren't mohhameds ancestors today redheads(don't know if natural) very white skin too
''Semites'' are different from indo-euros,however certain jews who live in europe are probably more euro than semite.
Once again,if you are trying to bait me,I don't think you can truly be pure race unless you go full habsburg,and I also don't think my theories are guaranteed to be 100% correct

>>16976083
It goes into the genre of wanting to feel interesting and unique when in reality it makes you sound like a schizo wacko kinda guy or just an edgy 14 years old

>>16976891
Peter Sheldrake's TED talk is hosted on the TED website, not banned.
https://blog.ted.com/the-debate-about-rupert-sheldrakes-talk/

>>16984965
I'm not trying to bait you
But trying to clearly define races outside of the four main ones that are directly and anatomically observable is just really hard
People can't even agree on what constitutes an arab or a semite in the strict sense. Some geographic zones (like Turkey, Assyria) contain a variety of ethnic groups that are pretty much impossbible to truly schematize at this point
And I'm not even getting into the complete clusterfuck that is MENA as a whole.
As you say yourself there have also been crossovers between those populations and the European peoples. So how do you draw a clear map of the races then?
Before accepting metaphysical doctrines reliant on race at face value, it's probably important to answer that question
Then there's culture, most people nowadays have no attachment to their roots, I could easily find you the blackest looking dude ever if I went downtown right now and the guy would have no fucking idea what the land of his ancestors even looks like, let alone what their traditions were.
This raises the question: for all the people who were raised in no tradition, but instead were born into the current culture-less landscape of globalism, what is their spiritual heritage? Do they not have any?

>>16985067
Sorry, *Rupert

>>16984025
>Nobody takes him seriously in Russia
I bet you heard that on /lit/.

>>16976048
This

>>16984787
>So long as the monk believes himself to simply connect to, rather than become one with the divine, he will find his powers limited and horizons restricted.
Borella addresses this by saying guenonians are misguided in assuming that the created can ever become (or was ever in the first place) the creator.

>>16985072
even the European ethnicities can be anatomically differentiated. The apricity forum is quite good for this. Modern science has not and cannot work towards studying such things for obvious reasons.

>>16985145
I should've said skeletally, I wasn't implying the european ethnicities can't be differentiated physiognomically

CRIIIIIIIIIINGE Thread!!
THIS THREAD is CRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGE!!!
ALL OF YOu are so fucking CRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINGEEE!

>>16984872
>Is it as ethnically closed-off as mainstream judaism is to gentiles?
Esoteric traditions are generally as closed off as it gets.
>Well, the new age idea is that it's like layers of an onion, material reality being described by some as the third density, dreams and the astral as the fourth, reunion with the higher self as the fifth, etc. There are more details but that's the basic idea.
I am not sure about that, I am sure a genuine tradition could use this framework too but it sounds suspiciously like something taken out of theosophy. The "fourth" chakra is the heart chakra, though, which is where you gain access to the Heart and the subtle body in a free way and that is what generally enables astral projection etc. As to what comes after knowledge of the subtle body, you are supposed to aim for the Unconditioned, Unmanifest, the One, etc. whatever you want to call it.
>Tibetan book of the dead
This is an esoteric text, so you should distinguish it from exoteric ones. One is an operative guide for enlightenment after death, the other is a speculative cosmological system.
>Which one?
Kundalini Awakening by John Selby. Whenever he's talking up the lower chakras or referring to "evolution" and "ecology" I know he's talking out of his ass.
>I'm thinking I should indeed become familiar with the Traditionalist school before continuing with spirituality
If that's how you feel, read Introduction to Magic first. It's fine if you don't understand much at first or can't get results with the exercises. The wolrdview laid out is valuable in itself.
>The answer that comes to my mind is that it becomes the ocean by being stripped of its individuality. If I extend the analogy to enlightenment then what constitutes the individuality of the self? Personality?
Higher personality. I gave the analogy because my view is that the form is lost, but the content (enlightened self) is retained. If you only have form, then you will lose your individuality, yes.
>How do you mean?
Some traditions are very effective but require you to go live in an Indian monastery. I neither can nor want to do that.
>Wouldn't you have an easier time by seeking out the guidance of someone from a tradition that you at least acknowledge as valuable, even if you don't know if it's the right one for you?
I was planning to do that right as the pandemic started, now everything is closed or off limits.
>Borella addresses this by saying guenonians are misguided in assuming that the created can ever become (or was ever in the first place) the creator.
The Traditionalists would pose that there is a higher level than that of the creator.

>>16985143
I forgot to tag you for the last line in this post.

>>16976011
I want to get out of it. What do I read?

>>16976048
Needs the Gita

>>16985324
>"The God Delusion by Dawkins, obviously. Don't tell me you seriously believe this spiritual mumbo-jumbo, anon?"

>>16985324
You can't

Books/texts on how2 astral project?

>>16985302
>Esoteric traditions are generally as closed off as it gets.
Then how are you supposed to find a teacher if you're seeking to be initiated to a tradition that's not part of your culture?
>The "fourth" chakra is the heart chakra, though, which is where you gain access to the Heart and the subtle body
How is it opened, is it a gradual process where you need to open the lower chakras first then work your way up? I've been wanting to experience what you refer to as the subtle body, but I'm struggling.
>you are supposed to aim for the Unconditioned
Perhaps I'm asking a retarded question, but how can we be sure that there is nothing above it?
>This is an esoteric text
How do you determine if a text is esoteric or exoteric? The Tibetan book of the dead is read by pretty much all Tibetan buddhists, so you'd think it would be considered part of the exoteric tradition.
>Whenever he's talking up the lower chakras or referring to "evolution" and "ecology" I know he's talking out of his ass
What's wrong with these concepts?
>read Introduction to Magic first
Will do. I'm assuming it'll give me the tools to better analyse spiritual doctrines and find my own path, since that's my goal? I'm not looking for a doctrinal take in and of itself yet since I want to explore possibilities.
Do you think there are good authors to contrast the Traditionalists with in order to get a full picture? Their main argument is the existence of a "sophia perennis", have they ever been countered by any author claiming that initiation into ancient doctrines are not the way to go? I'm asking mainly out of curiosity.
>If you only have form
By form you don't only mean the material and subtle bodies, right?
>I was planning to do that right as the pandemic started, now everything is closed or off limits.
Can't you contact them by mail?

>>16985072
>trying to define races outside of the four main ones is hard
I agree,I cannot do that alone,you can make the difference between a northern and west-southern european however,and continue until you get to a more specific group from the top down
>As you say yourself there have also been crossovers between those populations and the European peoples. So how do you draw a clear map of the races then?
No clue,that doesn't mean it must not be done.
>Before accepting metaphysical doctrines reliant on race at face value, it's probably important to answer that question
I don't really think that,it's not reliant on race at face value,it's more related to inheritance in general I would dare say
>Then there's culture, most people nowadays have no attachment to their roots, I could easily find you the blackest looking dude ever if I went downtown right now and the guy would have no fucking idea what the land of his ancestors even looks like, let alone what their traditions were.
That's a bad thing
>This raises the question: for all the people who were raised in no tradition, but instead were born into the current culture-less landscape of globalism, what is their spiritual heritage? Do they not have any?
Not sure about anything regarding this.
Intution tells me that they don't have any,and this manifests a lot of bad shit.
But idk,maybe somewhere in their subconscious there is something.
For example take hood culture,and how tribal black societies tend to be today,even in first world countries.
Of course I am not a expert on this,I don't even live in a blacked country,but I think this whole hood culture and gangs and shieeet might be a subconcious thing,related to their still recent tribal past.
The bastardization of language is probably the same phenomenon that created all the languages of today,negroids might have some subconscious wish to differentiate themselves even more,and create new culture,and language,since they only lately left their tribal societies
>but that kang empire
>haha white boi doesn't know what he's talking about
Don't care,don't even know if I'm white,white and poc are just retarded modernist terms created relatively recently

>>16985145
Good point,genetic research is kind of getting fucked over by muh globalism.

>>16985406
>doesn't mean it must not be done.
What will come out of it?

>>16985374

>>16985435
The one by Ophiel?
>>16985374
I've heard good things about https://obe4u.com/files/the_phase.pdf, haven't tried it yet, maybe anons can chime in.

>>16985324
not even death will free you my friend. You will be reincarnated as a demon included in a pantheon from 1500BC, thus closing the spirit/matter circle

If the mods permabanned everyone who posted a sincere suggestion on this thread the IQ of /lit/ would go up 10 points

>>16985552
True but it would make the board 100% more boring

>>16985552
They should permaban all materialists instead

>>16985386
>Then how are you supposed to find a teacher if you're seeking to be initiated to a tradition that's not part of your culture?
Finding a teacher is generally harder today, but finding a teacher of a foreign tradition is comparatively far easier. Information and people travel freely today.
>How is it opened, is it a gradual process where you need to open the lower chakras first then work your way up?
Different methods work differently. Kundalini starts from the root chakra. The Introduction to Magic book I recommended to you earlier uses Hermetic methods that aim to directly awaken your spiritual perception with the Black Work and then eventually to awaken the Heart through what's called "the descent into the heart".
>Perhaps I'm asking a retarded question, but how can we be sure that there is nothing above it?
Above the Unconditioned? Because it's the Unconditioned. What could be above it? It is beyond all form, all conditioning, all manifestation, all action and inaction, so on and so forth. It is the pure state.
>How do you determine if a text is esoteric or exoteric?
The audience it is addressed to. Some, like the Hermetics, use code in order to make their texts incomprehensible to any outsiders. This is my first time hearing that the Tibetan Book of the Dead is read by just anyone, though. AFAIK it is aimed at monks.
>What's wrong with these concepts?
The higher is superior to the lower. To try to treat them in an egalitarian fashion because "mother earth is also important" is antitraditional. The higher is always superior to the lower. This is why enlightenment matters, in the first place. There's nothing wrong with ecology but it has little to do with enlightenment. As to evolution, again, the higher can not proceed from the lower. Your spirit does not evolve, it awakens. If evolution figures into your thought patterns, it will give you trouble.
>Will do. I'm assuming it'll give me the tools to better analyse spiritual doctrines and find my own path, since that's my goal?
There are probably better works for that, but it gives you what you need to grow spiritually, including some indispensable ways to look at the world. If you make progress with the exercises, that will also be good.
>Do you think there are good authors to contrast the Traditionalists with in order to get a full picture?
That's what the Traditionalists try to do, give the full picture. I am not aware of any other writers that complete them.
>have they ever been countered by any author claiming that initiation into ancient doctrines are not the way to go?
There are many people who disagree, but I am not impressed by them. It's also worth mentioning that initiation is a more complex issue than it might at first appear - Evola promoted self-initiation as a viable route to take in the Kali Yuga, even though he was a Traditionalist.

>>16985386
>By form you don't only mean the material and subtle bodies, right?
This is getting a bit advanced for me. The important part is that materially conditioned form disappears when the material conditions for it also disappear. Form can still survive and be carried into the Unconditioned, but to do that you need to shift your centre into the spiritual realm rather than the physical realm. Awakening the Heart accomplishes that.
>Can't you contact them by mail?
It would be pointless, if I want to deal with text I already have a whole series of books on spirituality that I need to get to and besides I can always chat up more advanced schizos on /lit/ or elsewhere.
>>16985566
Damn bro you're very smart, huh?

>>16985566
Fuck wrong guy, I meant to tag this clown.
>>16985552
I guess I was the very smart guy all along.

>>16985580
>Finding a teacher is generally harder today, but finding a teacher of a foreign tradition is comparatively far easier.
I thought it was just a matter of lineage? As long as the teacher had the right master, who himself had the right master, etc, isn't that sufficient?
>Information and people travel freely today.
Yeah. Although going from an urbanite lifestyle in a developed country to getting initiated into the greater mysteries in the Himalayas or wherever is quite the jump, if I were to do something like this I'd need to be sure I could handle it.
>Different methods work differently.
Are you exploring different methods (with Kundalini vs Introduction to Magic) to better figure out what kind of system works best for you?
Why is syncretism bad, to what extent can you mix up different methods from different traditions without getting burned?
>What could be above it?
I have no idea, I don't even understand the Unconditioned itself. I just figure that when you're at a high enough level that qualification of your state transcends logic, anything is possible.
>The audience it is addressed to.
Nowadays though, all books can by read by everyone, and analyses and comments make it even easier.
I don't know if every Tibetan reads the book of the dead but at the very least they're getting it read to them as they die.
>it gives you what you need to grow spiritually, including some indispensable ways to look at the world
That's good. Do you think it's better to start with Evola, then move on to Guenon? Schuon and Coomaraswamy also seem interesting but they're probably not entry level.
>There are many people who disagree, but I am not impressed by them
None of their arguments are compelling?
>Evola promoted self-initiation
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of initiation? How can you be sure that you're not fucking up?
>Form can still survive and be carried into the Unconditioned, but to do that you need to shift your centre into the spiritual realm rather than the physical realm. Awakening the Heart accomplishes that.
Awakening the Heart is not the same as enlightenment, right?

>>16985668
>I thought it was just a matter of lineage? As long as the teacher had the right master, who himself had the right master, etc, isn't that sufficient?
It is, but there aren't too many legitimate masters who offer their teachings in the open these days.
>Yeah. Although going from an urbanite lifestyle in a developed country to getting initiated into the greater mysteries in the Himalayas or wherever is quite the jump, if I were to do something like this I'd need to be sure I could handle it.
I don't plan to go that far desu, I live in a big city and there are probably at least a handful of proper spiritual teachers here. I'll look for one for a while and if I can't find anyone I'll just go at it solo and do my best.
>Are you exploring different methods (with Kundalini vs Introduction to Magic) to better figure out what kind of system works best for you?
A lot of the practices aren't mutually exclusive. I want to make some progress with Kundalini first if possible, then go back to the Hermetics and start messing around with the advanced stuff. Of course, I'll keep up with Kundalini too if it works for me.
>Why is syncretism bad, to what extent can you mix up different methods from different traditions without getting burned?
Depends on what you mean by syncretism, usually esoteric teachings are very similar since they pursue the same goal, so it's difficult to speak of syncretism. Typically, the downside to combining techniques is that it may not be the optimal use of time. However, different techniques develop different faculties, so it's also not hard to benefit from variety. What matters most of all is success.
>I have no idea, I don't even understand the Unconditioned itself. I just figure that when you're at a high enough level that qualification of your state transcends logic, anything is possible.
I could try to explain the logic behind the Unconditioned, but speculative logic doesn't really matter and can in fact inhibit you instead. If you don't identify with anything impermanent and keep going beyond your spiritual limits, you will eventually get to the end beyond which no progress is possible.
>Nowadays though, all books can by read by everyone, and analyses and comments make it even easier.
There is still a process of selection. For example, all the anons in this thread who speak on this topic form a clear, separate group from those who call us schizos. This makes it easier to know what is addressed at who. The terminology also immediately disqualifies some more subversive types (Theosophists etc).

>>16985668
>That's good. Do you think it's better to start with Evola, then move on to Guenon? Schuon and Coomaraswamy also seem interesting but they're probably not entry level.
None of them are entry level, haha. Personally, I started with Evola and found him the most penetrating. You can read them in any order you like and go from one to the other then back again.
>None of their arguments are compelling?
After being familiarised with the Traditionalists, I can't say that I found any other spiritual arguments compelling.
>Doesn't that defeat the purpose of initiation? How can you be sure that you're not fucking up?
There are empirical tests you can undertake, but it is hard. Evola himself said that this is an almost impossible undertaking.
>Awakening the Heart is not the same as enlightenment, right?
It's complicated. I'd rather not comment on something without having experienced it myself. It's important to note that one of the chief goals of Hermeticism is to awaken the Heart and that in the Kundalini tradition even though the crown chakra is the symbol of ultimate enlightenment, the centre remains the heart chakra.

>>16984346
>>16984371
>>16984402
>>16984448
>>16984672
>>16984689
>>16984718
>>16984787
>>16984796
>>16984824
>>16984872
>>16985302
>>16985386
>>16985406
>>16985580
>>16985668
>>16985786
>>16985791
the birth of /lit/ talmud

>>16985801
What does that mean, anon?

>>16985786
>there aren't too many legitimate masters who offer their teachings in the open
Will most claim that they're not teaching anyone, then?
>I'll just go at it solo and do my best.
What about monastic orders? Not in any faraway country, but close to where you are.
>go back to the Hermetics
Have you read the Corpus Hermeticum? The emerald tablet alone mostly went over my head (I guess that's what you meant by a "process of selection") so I've been putting off Hermeticism since.
>esoteric teachings are very similar since they pursue the same goal, so it's difficult to speak of syncretism
Then the syncretism Guenon warns about only concerns the exoteric?
>I can't say that I found any other spiritual arguments compelling.
What other thinkers are you familiar with? Not necessarily anti-Traditionalist, but in general.
>There are empirical tests you can undertake
Are they listed somewhere?
If it's an "almost impossible" undertaking then is there some kind of fallback plan or something similar to that? For example, Pure Land (not an esotericism, I know, but I'm pretty much using it as an analogy here) says that if you fail to achieve Nirvana, you can follow a few easier steps to make sure you at least get to a Pure Land once you die. I'm talking about something like that, in case your self-initiation does not bear fruit, yet you want to ensure it wasn't for nothing.
> It's important to note that one of the chief goals of Hermeticism is to awaken the Heart and that in the Kundalini tradition even though the crown chakra is the symbol of ultimate enlightenment, the centre remains the heart chakra.
I don't think I fully get what this implies, but I'll keep it in mind.

>>16976166
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the art of memory about memory palaces?

>>16985931
yes, among other methods

>>16985867
>Will most claim that they're not teaching anyone, then?
Most are just very difficult to recognise. The ones that are recognisable are hard to distinguish from poseurs, too.
>What about monastic orders? Not in any faraway country, but close to where you are.
If you can find a good monastery of a fitting tradition, sure. You could even go far away if you are looking to spend your life in a monastery, anyway.
>Have you read the Corpus Hermeticum? The emerald tablet alone mostly went over my head (I guess that's what you meant by a "process of selection") so I've been putting off Hermeticism since.
Read Evola's book "The Hermetic Tradition". Everything is deciphered and clearly explained there.
>Then the syncretism Guenon warns about only concerns the exoteric?
This is the first I hear of this. Perhaps he was referring to the Theosophists specifically? I know he opposed them and I also know that they syncretised their beliefs into one huge mess, but the Theosophists can't really be compared with any legitimate tradition or practice. Even when the Theosophists borrow legitimate concepts, they turn those on their heads.
>What other thinkers are you familiar with? Not necessarily anti-Traditionalist, but in general.
If you go to the occult threads on this board you'll find a whole bunch of them. Chaos Magicians, Black magicians, Satanists with various different names, etc. There are also various occultists, some of them good, others bad, others simply suspicious.
>Are they listed somewhere?
Many places. I've given you some books you can start with and you'll find many others on your own.
>If it's an "almost impossible" undertaking then is there some kind of fallback plan or something similar to that?
You have to trust that you are destined to see more. If you are certain that it is in your nature to pursue matters of the spirit and spend your life doing just that, then you weren't living "for nothing", you were living according to what is proper for your nature. This too makes enlightenment easier and more likely.

>>16985983
>Most are just very difficult to recognise. The ones that are recognisable are hard to distinguish from poseurs
I thought the notion of lineages made this easier.
For example if you're looking for a Zen teacher, isn't there an international association that documents their lineage and tells you to what extent the master's master and his own master before him can be eventually traced back to Bodhidharma?
>If you can find a good monastery of a fitting tradition, sure
For now I don't trust I'd be able to spot the differences between what makes a good monastery and a bad one, but since the goal is to end up dedicating oneself to the pursuit of spirituality, the monastic life seems like the best catalyst for enlightenment.
>This is the first I hear of this.
The quote I read about this is from Guenon's "The Symbolism of the Cross". He says the Traditionalist school aims to draw parallels between doctrines, but not to fuse them together. He says that the goal is a synthesis, not a syncretism, in that blending elements together leads nowhere.
>Chaos Magicians, Black magicians, Satanists
Aren't those usually said to be spiritually counter-productive, useless, or even harmful?
>You have to trust that you are destined to see more.
I understand.

>>16976011
get in a fight while on a high dose of LSD

>>16986044
>I thought the notion of lineages made this easier.
Lineage itself is not enough, the line must also be "alive". The teaching must not have degenerated at any point through the line of transmission.
>For example if you're looking for a Zen teacher, isn't there an international association that documents their lineage and tells you to what extent the master's master and his own master before him can be eventually traced back to Bodhidharma?
I don't know.
>The quote I read about this is from Guenon's "The Symbolism of the Cross". He says the Traditionalist school aims to draw parallels between doctrines, but not to fuse them together. He says that the goal is a synthesis, not a syncretism, in that blending elements together leads nowhere.
I think he must have been referring to the Theosophists. Synthesis refers to observing the functional element and then understanding its use and purpose. Syncrtism would be just slapping tenets from various doctrines together and thinking that's wisdom.
>Aren't those usually said to be spiritually counter-productive, useless, or even harmful?
Yes, lol.

>>16986507
>the line must also be "alive".
Is there even a way to know this for sure? Seems like an impossible endeavor. Asking the master "is your lineage alive?" would be retarded, same for the disciples, so whose word do you trust?

>>16986534
I don't have an answer to many of these questions. You just have to figure it out as you go along. If the teaching is deformed, then it's your job to see that and if you do not grow within that tradition, it is again your job to do something about that.

>>16977312
Do the traditionalists really argue against mysticism or is that a meme

>>16986543
Okay then.
Thanks for the advice and good luck, friend.

>>16986544
I can't speak for the rest, but Evola does argue against mysticism, yes. It depends on how you define mysticism, though. Evola's definition of mysticism was very specific. It referred to using the mystical method - identifying as the human part of you and then expecting mysterious revelations from the divine, which is conceived as distant and something to be emulated and obeyed, rather than an integral part of your self. This is the "lunar" method. Evola thought it was too ineffective and rife with various possibilities for confusions and stagnancy, which is why he instead promoted other methods of spiritual advancement.

>>16986563
Thanks, good luck to you too!

>>16983918
>implying either of them have power
Dugin exists to convince people that Russia is secretly the last stand of traditional values.
Bannon got himself kicked out of the Trump administration for being arrogant, then got banned from every payment processor and platform.

>>16986578
I'm just talking about the usual definition
>1 : the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics. 2 : the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience
But apparently that's not what you mean

>>16986621
No, the general definition of mysticism today is very different from what it was in the past and even more different from what it meant in the distant past, which actually referred to initiation.

>>16977624
posting again to give you a taste in English:

If the I-being "human" (that doesn't have to be the earth-inhabiting human we know) is included in the development of consciousness, which underlies the totality of cosmic Becoming, then it won't just be the idea of human, that we have to set as teleological principle. When I am saying this, I use the term "idea" in its weak form, which points to a kind of potential: as we can't deny that we are there, there must have been a potential for it, which makes the "idea" in this case almost trivial, if we don't expand the idea to the effect, that cosmic Becoming fundamentally and in its essence aims towards the Anthropos (not only in this part of the universe, but everywhere). If that really is the case, then evolution in its current form is refuted, because it relies on the premise, that life is extremely rare and improbable. Neo-Darwinism needs a predominately dead universe. Cosmic evolution can only be understood from an involution, from the descent of a higher conscious being into the darkness of matter. The dust of stars that we are made of could be the dust of gods: the cosmic dust of fallen gods or titans. Similar figures of thought can be found in a lot of myths, for example in the ancient Greek myth of Dionysus. The Gods who fell into the darkness of matter (titans) work themselves towards a new light of consciousness. Cosmic evolution is the Becoming of Gods and the Memory of Gods. Cosmic evolution is the ascending motion towards Atman-consciousness. That before the ascending motion comes a more or less brutal descending motion, a fall, combined with the total loss of consciousness and memory, belongs to the primordial thoughts (Urgedanken), that humans clearly grasp time and time again and that apparently exists deep within the archetypal bottom of the Soul. If ascend and descend rely on each other, Evolution not without involution, then the whole process that underlies every living Being (including human) is one of rememberance (Anamnesis to use the Greek word, which is a key word to Platonic thought Episteme=Anamnesis). Becoming conscious is remembering and is used for memory, we are deeply anamnetic Beings. We awake to ourselves by remembering ourselves. The lower realms serve as source of our Being and manifested memory. Man discovers in nature, the lower realms, the anamnetic path of his own soul.

>>16977026
Wouldn't the "hermits" of this thread be in the same pitfall as the indians who "became so obsessed with spirituality that they were crippled physically"?

>>16977048
How do you define "one's own" tradition? Is not any non-atheist lifestyle and belief system againt the tradition of someone born into atheism? Can the person making the image use greco-roman symbolism in good faith when there's a good chance they were not raised under ancient greco-roman culture? "Own tradition" is most synonymous with one's upbringing, trying to claim traditionalism while telling people not to act in the way they were raised is self-contradictory, therefore making promoting a new belief system by appealing to tradition in almost all cases futile.

>>16986950
You know you have ancestors before your parents right, and they leave a very significant imprint on your mind through heredity alone. You are employing the fallacy that socialization is all that determines anything in one's life

>>16982237
You are employing the fact a priori that race is irrelevant, and it shapes all your future cognition, hence you cannot imagine yourself not taking as a priori that fact that race is irrelevant

What do you think cultures spontaneously form out of thin air? Or do you really think human evolution magically stopped 100k years ago?

>>16983870
>than between an european and an arab or a hindu despite the latter being the same "race"
Obviously this isn't true, since Greek and Hindu thought blended quite easily upon contact

>>16986984
The fallacy is thinking you get to cherrypick. No shit, a person's background contains a myriad of traditions, some learned and some original. Christians, atheists, nationalists, romaboos, paganists, and just about every other major dogmatic organization uses this as one of their main appeals to NPCs. "Your life is shit because you/your parents/society in its whole went astray from the old traditions". To be a distinguished truth you need to rise above the tired old jew tricks, not try to compete in them.

>>16985435
This any good? The only book I've read on the subject is Astral Dynamics.

>>16978930
>Read Spengler and realize that the physical form of physical races are just raw materials for spiritual civilization-spirits to imprint themselves onto, and that all people white brown or black are part of the same mass produced globohomo ethnic sludge.
this

Good thread anons, always love mystical threads which dont devolve into dogma debates

>>16985435
Read this last night. Author rambles on a lot how "other authors dont teach you what to do, I will!".
Well its just pages of brief descriptions, a collection of summaries. Good starting place to branch out though, seeing as the author gives the complete basics.
Golden Dawn rituals. Body of Light was very interesting, would like to work on that. But I dont want to bend my fingers for 6 months before I can start...

>>16985454
The Phase and Ophiels book go well together.

>>16987373
We were lucky that the kek comic didnt start a pol shit fling. Thats what normally happens in these threads.

>>16987671
Yeah, always a bit dangerous posting that. I dont agree with alot of it, but seeing decent discussion about it and its themes is an increasingly rare pleasantry on /lit/

i never see Schwaller de Lubicz's name on these reading lists. how come he is missing?

>>16975936
With each rebirth comes a rainbowave of reexperience --renewed experience; if you cannot bring it to fruition, nor appreciate it, even whilst knowing that this world is temporal & transitory, then existence is certainly not for you.

>>16976103
I've seen chart in this thread except for this, thanks.

Anyone interested in mysticism should start with physical fitness first. Want to harden your mind? Want to have out of body experiences? Want to gain clout and new abilities? What you want is an intense workout program. It's tangible, it's undoubtedly valuable, and no one will call you a schitzo for it. You might even make friends.

Am I on /x/ ?

all i ever wanted was the truth

>>16975936
test

>>16985094
Oн пpaв

>>16981804
Pussy

This racial soul thing implies that there's somehow a dependent relationship between the metaphysical and the material, which is nonsense. Mysticism is interesting, but this whole race reincarnation thing sounds really dumb.

>>16979333
No, retard.

>>16981804
>barely sleep
>320 - 480mg caffeine daily
>diagnosed psychosis

What's a good book that has all of the apocrypha, deuterocanonical, and non-canonical (Book of Enoch amongst others) books of the Church and Christianity? I just finished the King James Version of the bible without apocrypha.

>>16976198
Astrologically speaking, wouldn't Jupiter make more sense as the Chad to Saturn's virginity?

>>16985454
ok, so astral projection is literally just lucid dreaming?

>>16990794
No, that's just the author's interpretation because he's a physicalist and doesn't want to admit it's not the same thing, but the method to induce both states is similar

>>16984824
>'chose your afterlife
What does that mean
If you're a christian you go to heaven, if you're a buddhist you get reincarnated, if you're an atheist you hang out in the void until you figure out you fucked up...?
What's the end game?

>>16987373
/x/ is all about that nowadays,fucking sucks
>>16990934
You can't know what the after life is until you die,I didn't say I could prove it
Reincarnation is people being ''possesed'' with your personality,your archetype once you die.
I've seen proof of actual reincarnation,and there are many books about this.but I think my extremely simplified explanation can apply.
As for other afterlifes,we know that the mind influencing things outside of it can't be explained with the laws of physics,yes it still does,Christ says that the Kingdom of God is inside you,an afterlife where you are able to live inside you own idea of God might be possible I don't know.
I think it is possible that Christians go to heaven.

>>16991002
>Reincarnation is people being ''possesed'' with your personality,your archetype once you die.
Yeah but it's not "you" who's coming back, it's the imprint you left on the collective unconscious
>I've seen proof of actual reincarnation
Story?

>>16987156
excellent book. helped me astral project into your mom's ass

>>16991048
I was reffering to what I read anon,just expressed myself wrong because because autism,there are books on reincarnation mentioned earlier in the thread,and you can just search up some if it interests you,the closest thing to proof of reincarnation an average joe can get is some rituals from magical,maybe pegan traditions.
I kind of want to add somethingl, what I said regarding ''my'' extremely simplified theory on it might have exceptions regarding actual reincarnation,I cannot be 100% sure afterall.

>>16991002
>/x/ is all about that nowadays,fucking sucks
After my experience with a couple of /lit/ threads about the occult I thought it might be worth it to check out /x/, since I expected more of the same. Nope. 95% schizoposts.

What should I read if I want to learn about sacred geometry? but from a more historical and scientific perspective?

>>16991749
in case some of these weren't already charted

luca pacioli - divina proportione (the classic renaissance treatise)
william m. ivins - art & geometry, a study in space intuitions (very short survey)
somewhat scientific:
matila ghyka - the geometry of art and life
robert lawlor - sacred geometry, philosophy and practice

>>16985324
Start with the Over-Soul by Emerson, branch off to Theosophy and Madame Blavatsky, whom Joyce loved so much.

>>16991942
thanks

>>16985324
Build a structured satire. Only this way will you determine the absurd from the abstract, the abstract from the concrete. A comedy yes, but divine.

>>16992308
could you expand on this? not him

>>16979333
Talk about bias.