/lit/ - Literature

I’d go with the one which has a book about how everything is going to turn out in the future (now) and then was correct. That’s just me personally though

>>16942774
>and then was correct
Would you mind elaborating?

Sorry to tell you, but Buddha was a crypto-Hindu

>>16942776
Well, see, Jesus said that he was going to return sometime before 100AD but then he didn't, and then every ten years after that since someone swears it's going to be this time, but THIS time, it's going to happen FOR SURE! That part in Revelations where John of Patmos talks about how the Romans are going to come around and round up all of the Jews and kill them is ACTUALLY talking about how Bill Gates wants to microchip us, because he likes dragons!

>>16942760
Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self

Near Sāvatthī. There the Blessed One said to the monks: “In one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena [or: phenomena that offer sustenance = the five aggregates], craving develops. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

“Just as if a great mass of fire of ten… twenty… thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, and into it a man would time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, & dried timber, so that the great mass of fire—thus nourished, thus sustained—would burn for a long, long time. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena, craving develops. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

“Now, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

“Just as if a great mass of fire of ten… twenty… thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, into which a man simply would not time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, or dried timber, so that the great mass of fire—its original sustenance being consumed, and no other being offered—would, without nutriment, go out. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress.”

>>16942805
Go right on ahead and find me those passages.

>>16942760
The most Abrahamic book you have.

>>16942991
Isn't he supposed to look like this?

>>16943082
No. We actually have surviving images of Christ, picrelated.

>>16943105
Why is his portrait so asymetrical?

>>16942760
No book. Only practice.

>>16943115
But what kind of practice?

>>16943105
That’s literally from centuries after the supposed events. Are all christcucks this delusional?

I'm still getting filtered by the problem of evil, frankly.

>>16942935
go right ahead and take the bait

>>16943129

>nooo don't use the image from centuries after he lived, use the image we made 2000 years after he lived instead!

>>16943108
There is no canonical answer and there are lots of theories. (E.g., one side is the forgiving face of God and the other is the judging side.)

But the most likely answer is that it's probably just how they used to draw faces back then when they wanted 'realism'. See the Fayum portraits (picrelated), they're drawn in a similar style and also asymmetrical.

>>16943129
*Every* *single* surviving portrait of an ancient historical figure is also "from centuries after the supposed events".

If that is your standard, then you'd have to trash all portraits from Ancient Greece and Rome as well.

bump

>>16943343
>>If that is your standard, then you'd have to trash all portraits from Ancient Greece and Rome as well.
I have no problem with this.

>>16943216
>I'm still getting filtered by the problem of evil, frankly.
There is not solution to a mental fart.

>>16942805
Revelations is fan fiction added to the bible in the 1400s.

>>16943845
What?

>>16942760
Well since you are trying to make Jesus more Buddha-like I would advice you to just discard Jesus and go with the Buddha.

>>16943998
That's a pic I found on google, it doesn't imply anything.

>>16942760
Frithjof Schuon - Treasures of Buddhism
Frithjof Schuon - The Fullness of God

>>16944015
You still picked that one specifically. Trust your intuition.

>>16944041
It was the first one that had both Buddha and Jesus in the same pic. I picked it out of convenience so I wouldn't have to open gimp and make a shitty collage.
The fact that my intuition is failing me is precisely why I made this thread.

The Doctrine of Awakening by Julius Evola

>>16944054
All you're gonna get here is perennialist sissies trying to get your to join in with their apathy though. >>16944030 You must avoid these people like fire. BEGOME ZEALOT. And more precisely a Buddhist zealot.

Friendly reminder that even morally upstanding Christians will get a bad rebirth, so sayeth the Buddha.

>>16942760
orthodox christianity is quite spiritual and has many similar elements with eastern philosophies.

>believes in rebirth

>>16944089
>orthodox christianity is quite spiritual
I often read such claims, but Orthodoxy doesn't seem so different from Catholicism. I personally know some people from the assyrian church and their liturgy and traditions seem similar to catholics.

>>16944116
There's more empirical evidence pointing towards rebirth than any other afterlife doctrine though, with past life memories and the like.
I'd like it to not be true because it sucks ass but it makes more sense than us just getting one life then ascending to the etheric realms forever.

>>16944030
This

>>16942760
Why can't you decide what is right out of what they tell you? Who are you relying on to tell you what is the truth? What makes you pick what you pick?

According to Guénon, metempsychosis occurs when the psychic residues associated with past incarnations appear in association with another being, human or animal. “Sometimes this gives the impression of reincarnation, as when a being contains identifiable psychic residues from the past. In such a case, one may remember past lives, but in the deepest sense they are not one’s own. They are an inheritance from other beings who will never reappear on the earthly scene.” This explanation would account for all of the anecdotal accounts and proofs for reincarnation, and it would further explain why the child who would become the current Dalai Lama was able to remember some things associated with the previous Dalai Lama, but could not gather together all of the memories and abilities that the previous mature individual possessed into the body and mind of the young boy.

>>16944352
>psychic residues associated with past incarnations appear in association with another being
But why?

>>16942760
the right path is shooting heroin into your neck and dying from pure bliss

>>16944393
Based

>>16944393
All religions condemn suicide, I wouldn't risk it

>>16943884
>Revelations
Yeah, you seem like you know what you’re talking about.

>>16944355
>>psychic residues associated with past incarnations appear in association with another being
>But why?
Genetics are passed on on the level of the body. Why can't other levels pass on other things?

>>16943105
Looks like he has down syndrome

>>16943343
It's probably an attempt at some degree of perspective. The Romans used a lot of "cheats" when it came to that. The other one they'd like to use was putting things at different heights to simulate depth.

>>16942760
Read What the Buddha Taught and then the Heart Sutra for Buddhism, then read Mere Christianity followed by the New Testament (don't bother reading the OT if you're on the fence).

>>16943082
The skull is based off of dead Jews found in the region from that time. Assuming his bloodline is what the Bible says it is, there's simply no way he would be as pale as in >>16943105. Go look at the Mizrahim if you want to see what a "pure Jew" looks like.

On the other hand, if we take the Gospel of Pilate as accurate (you shouldn't), then he was forty feet tall, on fire, and made of molten gold. But then, he was also (supposedly) able to do things like walk on water and multiply food, so he could also look like whatever the fuck he wanted to.

>>16942760
The Buddha was a crypto-Christian. Read the New Testament.

>>16942760
>which books?
>MATTHEW
>MARK
>LUKE
>JOHN

>>16944127
Seems like you're looking at the exoteric side of Christianity and not the esoteric. There's more depth there than you realize, it's just not emphasized at all in the west. Look into Christian Mysticism, Hesychasm, The Philokalia. Things like that.

>>16944089
>>16944127
The differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism seem to be largy aesthetic.

>>16945141
> Go look at the Mizrahim if you want to see what a "pure Jew" looks like.
The Mizrahim have no genetic relation to ancient Hebrews whatsoever, you stupid mongoloid.

The people closest to ancient Hebrews today are the Syrians. E.g., look at Assad.

And in any case, brown Middle Easterners are a modern phenomenon, they only appeared on the scene after the Arabs started importing Africans.

>>16944127
>>16945207
Both of you need to do more research then. There are pretty important departures from Catholicism in Orthodoxy including of the sort which might be of particularly interest to OP given his question. For example, Hesychia is almost non-existent in modern Roman Catholicism but exists in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

>>16944393
Heroin overdose symptoms:
>Shallow breaths
>Gasping for air
>Very pale skin
>Blue tint to the lips and fingertips
>Pinpoint pupils
>Discolored tongue
>Delirium
>Constipation
>Spasms or seizures
>Nausea or vomiting
>Coma
Wow such bliss

>>16945164
>The Buddha was a crypto-Christian
I don't recall Jesus mentioning aggregates and the fundamentally empty essence of all things

>>16945191
>Hesychasm
Is that basically Christian meditation?

>>16945256
>Ecclesiastes
>Kenosis
>The storehouse of the world is perishable, the storehouse of 'heaven' eternal
It's implicit

>>16944393
>>16945232
Yeah my uncle od'd on heroin. Suffocated in the cold outside for hours until he was discovered. Went into coma for week until he died, was braindead because previously mentioned suffocation. Not bliss

>>16945265
I think they would prefer the term meditative prayer but yeah basically.

>>16945268
You're reaching. There is no "Absolute" in Buddhism, everything is empty, nothing is permanent. It's inherently anti-Platonic, and Christianity borrows heavily from Platonism.

>>16945269
Sorry to hear that. A lot of people seem to have an almost romantic view of heroin sometimes.

>>16943216
Anyone? Dharma addresses this pretty well but frankly I haven't seen anything convincing from the christian doctrine and I don't mean this in a provocative way

>>16945286
>sunyata
>buddha-nature
>buddha-mind
It's implicit

>>16945265
No, meditation is the cheap Chinese clone of prayer.

>>16945306
Explain please, I'm not seeing it.

Was the Buddha divine by nature the way Jesus was?

>>16945297
>Anyone? Dharma addresses this pretty well
Kek, the reverse.

>The second major problem traditional Therevada Buddhists confront is what could be called the "karmic management" problem. Traditionally Buddhists have believed that by and large the circumstances of one's rebirth are determined by one's karma--that is, one's deeds, whether good or bad in this and previous lives. This, however, seems to require that there exist something like a "program" that arranges your genes, the family conditions you are born into, and the like to correspond to the moral worth of your past deeds. Such a program certainly would have to be highly complex and well-designed, much more so than any computer program that currently exists. The existence of such a karmic "program" would make sense if one believed in a God who created it, as Hindus do. But, traditional Therevada Buddhists do not believe in any such God. Thus, they are forced to simply assert that such a highly complex and well-organized system simply exists, and has always existed, as a "brute given." This, however, seems highly implausible: cases of such intricate apparent design, such as a watch, a computer program, or the human body, seem to require an explanation.

>>16945307
Why do you say that? Both seem to be able to lead to states of transcendence.

>>16945316
loss of self-contents through faith and being in christ may be functionally equivalent to loss of self-contents through meditation on emptiness

>>16945330
Christ and emptiness are ontologically incompatible though. And there is no real implication of the loss of self-contents through union with the divine in Christianity.

>>16945347
Guenon holds that the scholastics approached his idea of metaphysics, which is heavily based on advaita. the sophia penis (perennis) may not be universal, but i'm thinking it may be undeniable that a glimpse of it, or that aspects of it are to be found in any tradition calling itself religious

>>16945347
(sorry for pulling your leg, i don't actually believe this. it's just fun to argue for ridiculous ideas)

>>16945322
At least karma is a good "system" to justify the existence of evil.
Christianity is just confusing, even putting aside famously controversial texts like Job.

>>16945347
Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, even as Our Lord in Heaven is perfect"
Corinthians I 14 where Paul, after talking about the importance of Agape does a brief metaphysical statement when he says that right now we see the world through a mirror darkly, but how in the future life to come we will know even as we are known i.e beatific vision through real union with God

>>16945347
the idea of doing good for the only reason that it pleases God is pretty self-effacing

>>16945412
>At least karma is a good "system" to justify the existence of evil.
Karma isn't logical with the rest of the buddhist doctrine, so no

>The first major problem that these doctrines present for Therevada Buddhists is that they seem to generate a tension, if not contradiction, at the core of the Buddha's teaching. On the one hand, to eliminate attachment to our own ego concerns, the Buddha denied the reality of an enduring self. On the other hand, in order to affirm justice in the world, he had to affirm the doctrines of rebirth and karma, according to which we reap the consequences of our present thoughts and deeds in a future life. Rebirth and karma, however, seem to require the existence of an enduring self: how, for instance, could we reap the fruits of our past deeds unless our self continued to exist in the future? Moreover, the doctrine of nirvana also seems to require the existence of an enduring self: if your self does not continue to exist from moment to moment, why bother trying to obtain nirvana? Thus, on the one hand, Therevada Buddhists deny the existence of an enduring self, but on the other hand their doctrines of rebirth, karma, and nirvana seem to require that the self continues to exist through time.
> ...
> In the above evaluation, I focused on what I consider some of the most vulnerable aspects of the core tenets of traditional Therevada Buddhism. Although the above critique has not definitively demonstrated that Therevada Buddhism is untenable, it does show that it runs into significant problems resulting from their belief in nirvana, rebirth, and karma, and thus that this form of Buddhism is less plausible than standard Western atheism. To see this, note that traditionally Therevada Buddhists have been atheists (or perhaps agnostics), since they do not believe in the existence of a creator God. Thus, unlike the theistic worldview, their worldview does not help explain the ultimate origin of the world, its apparent design, and the like. Instead, their worldview has the same drawbacks as standard Western atheism, along with the additional philosophical problems resulting from their doctrines of nirvana, rebirth, and karma, as elaborated above.

>>16945485
also symbolically: the golden calf is smelted

>>16945496
This only serves to demonstrate that anatta is indeed the weakest idea in Buddhism and really shouldn't be a part of the doctrine. Being unable to qualify the self does not imply its nonexistence.

>>16945444
the lamp of the soul being the eye is about this too I think. the eye being a kind of primary "sense" to represent consciousness.

God knows best though, just theorizing.

>>16945496
>...
=
> The standard solution to the apparent contradiction between the no-enduring self doctrine and the doctrines of rebirth, karma, and nirvana begins by admitting that one's present self does not literally get reborn since it does not exist for more than a moment even in this life; rather, they claim, one's "karmic energy", that is, the set of fundamental personality traits and life energy (one's "candle flame"), gets transferred to some future fetus. Buddhists then go on to claim that although the future self is not strictly identical with our present self, it is not totally unrelated either. Much as a candle flame which is passed from one candle to the next is neither the same candle flame nor a different candle flame, the future self can neither be said to be the same nor different from the present self.

>Although this response might seem initially plausible it faces two significant problems. First, it does not really resolve the problem. To see this, note that the major point of the doctrine of rebirth and karma is that we should not be lax about our behavior in this life, since we will pay the consequences in the next life. This, however, not only requires a degree of sameness of the future self with our present self, but it also requires that we really care about what happens to that future self. But the more Therevada Buddhists affirm that our future self is the same as our present self, and hence that we should care what happens to it, the more the whole point of their practice and metaphysics is undermined: namely, to eliminate concern about what happens to our self by realizing that it does not exist for more than a moment. Thus, simply asserting that our future self is in some sense the same as our present self does not resolve the apparent contradiction between the Buddha's no-self doctrine and the doctrines of rebirth, karma, and nirvana.

>Second, even if the reborn self is in some sense the same as our present self, it does not seem to be sufficiently continuous with our present self to justify claiming that we are actually reborn. To see this, consider the following analogy to the Buddhist's account of rebirth explicated above in which one's karmic energy, basic personality traits (and perhaps one's memories in an unconscious form) get transferred to some future fetus. Suppose a mother dies during pregnancy, and through some futuristic technology her newly discovered biological energy and her basic personality traits are transferred to her unborn child. Further suppose that her memories are transferred to the unborn child in an unconscious form that will never be consciously accessible to the child. In such a case, we certainly would not say that the mother continued to survive in the unborn child, except perhaps in some loose or figurative sense of "survive." Rather, we would say that a future successor of the mother survived that shared her life energy, personality traits, and her memories in unconscious form.

>>16945514
>God knows best though
Why does He behave in such a human way in the OT?

>>16945509
This shows that :
- karma is not coherent with the rest of the system
- it does not solve the problem of evil any more than Western atheism, and even adds more inconsistency
- it doesn't explain more things, always needs to be explained itself, especially because of its design

>Thus, unlike the theistic worldview, their worldview does not help explain the ultimate origin of the world, its apparent design, and the like. Instead, their worldview has the same drawbacks as standard Western atheism, along with the additional philosophical problems resulting from their doctrines of nirvana, rebirth, and karma, as elaborated above.

>>16945496
not very striking criticism imo. karma exists when karma exists. after nirvana karma does not exist, so karma doesn't exist

>>16945527
I have no idea. It was revealed to Moses, peace be upon him, creating the jews. If I were to go looking for an explanation, that's where I'd start.

>>16945496
https://suttacentral.net/mil3.2.6/en/tw_rhysdavids
Your argument was brought up in the Buddha's time, but people always forget that it was.
Buddhism does argue that there is something which receives the results of karma, it just denies that this thing is an immortal "soul"

>>16945523
I guess the question is "what are 'we'"? if the designing feature of non-enlightened life is desire, and the desire is reborn, then it is reincarnation. it is very possible that this perceived "non-continuity of selfhood", if real, is entirely secondary in every meaningful way

>>16945537
>the additional philosophical problems resulting from their doctrines of nirvana
>viewing nirvana as a philosophical problem
cmon bruh

>>16945567
>‘Just so, great king, it is one name-and-form that finds its end in death, and another that is reborn. But that other is the result of the first, and is therefore not thereby released from its evil deeds (its bad Karma).’

This is exactly what is said and criticized in the passage I quoted.

>>16945523
>The standard solution to the apparent contradiction between the no-enduring self doctrine and the doctrines of rebirth, karma, and nirvana begins by admitting that one's present self does not literally get reborn since it does not exist for more than a moment even in this life; rather, they claim, one's "karmic energy", that is, the set of fundamental personality traits and life energy (one's "candle flame"), gets transferred to some future fetus. Buddhists then go on to claim that although the future self is not strictly identical with our present self, it is not totally unrelated either. Much as a candle flame which is passed from one candle to the next is neither the same candle flame nor a different candle flame, the future self can neither be said to be the same nor different from the present self.

>>16945596
We talk about the combo kamma + anatta + nibbana here.

On nibbana, see: http://home.messiah.edu/~rcollins/EASTR1.htm

>>16945603
when we say "we" do we include people who believe themselves to have experienced enlightenment?

>>16945648
>The third sort of reason that followers of Sankara have offered in support of their position is an appeal to mystical experiences in which people purport to have a powerful and direct experience of the absolute unity of all things, including their self and Brahman. Purportedly, the validity of these experiences cannot be doubted once one obtains it. In critique of this line of support, however, philosophers such as William Wainwright (1988, p. 183) have pointed out that mystics in other religious traditions--including other branches of Hinduism--interpret similar sorts of mystical experiences in a very different manner. Thus, these experiences are not self-validating as advocates of the Sankara school often claim. Second, as argued above, even if one did have a powerful mystical "experience" of the absolute oneness of everything, advocates of the Sankara school would still offer the worst possible explanation of the sum total of our experiences, as discussed above, for they cannot explain our much more extensive ordinary experience of distinctions in reality. In contrast, by assuming the real existence of the world we see around us, we are able not only to explain our ordinary experiences, but also to explain the mystical experiences to which Sankara appeals. For example, we could explain these mystical experiences as either being valid experiences whose content has been misinterpreted, or as being a delusion generated by, among other things, the practices of meditation.

It's the same path

>>16942760
which one was humble enough to make a sacrifice

fasting and prayer (meditation) is integrated in true christianity

>>16945741
is it your impression that various interpretations of knowledge of oneness are/can be that different from one another? Im really not in a position to argue for buddhist psychology

>>16945756
Is it really?

>>16945864
the way I see it the significant difference is if you believe that christianity includes a law that is to be enforced. like old testament law for instance. if you don't then I think the similarities can be very great, although if you asked me to sign my name to that I'd be hesitant to be so certain

>>16945924
>if you believe that christianity includes a law that is to be enforced
The golden rule, yes, but if you meant the Decalogue then not really.

>>16945567
>Buddhism does argue that there is something which receives the results of karma, it just denies that this thing is an immortal "soul"
The results are passed on because unmanifest Souls which is brahman are atman from the aggregates ever ascending upwards. the Aggregates are not the self but they are the clothing. The self is where it never left, the unmanifest or not self. It is in the transcendental reality where God in his multiplicity and sameness dwell.

It seems that Buddha refined the doctrine of samsara. By denying even Gods as inferior he drew the line between that which is formed in samsara and that which is the transcendental reality of everlasting Bliss.

The Immortal soul is then a principal in Nirvana. In between the wheel of suffering and the Ultimate Reality are countless other realities depending on what is left of the samsaric aspect of being. The idea is that God would not needlessly torture himself since samsara already does that and that there are countless many incomprehensible realities along the way. But ridding oneself of suffering and refining oneself in this world is to already prepare for the greater experience of reality which abrahamic faiths speak of, because they claim the transmigration of the soul is wrong.

It is only God ridding himself of suffering. Samsara itself spawns all kinds of beings from different worlds some of which would be considered to be gods in comparison to humans, they're not gods in the higher unmanifest sense.

>>16945951
>if you meant the Decalogue then not really.
I mean Jesus, peace be upon him, does uphold some Law as eternal (not one letter of the law will change), though I at least don't know what the common interpretations of that are. I suppose you could decide for yourself that these are like the facts-of-life of something like karma, but.. as far as I remember the statement is a little vague, and in the context of highly legalistic judaism, to come to that conclusion. I really don't know though, just my thoughts.

>>16943332
>the image we made 2000 years after he lived instead!
WITH SCIENCE!!

>>16943833
>I have no problem with this.
Hello, this is ISIS speaking, would you like to come over for some tea?

>>16945993
>has never read the scientific papers in question
>believes that speculative averages of hypothetical Semitic faces provide a more reliable representation of a person's particular face than ancient representations
cringe

>>16943108
>>16943343
Maybe its simply cause faces tend to be asymmetrical? why do people stretch their imaginations so wide instead of just going for the obvious answer?

>>16942760
I got DPDR(dissociation), everything the Buddha said is clearly true from this state. So I'd go with Buddha.

>>16946096
lmao