/lit/ - Literature

I've been stuck for a long time now and it's killing me. I'm caught between determination, despair and completely empty of motivation. My latest story (written 4 months ago) is definitely my best thing I've ever done, in a realist sort of tone, and I've gotten the more reception from it from editors at the quarterlies I send my stuff to then I ever have, although they think it's not the right tone for what they're planning for (one guy said they're looking to approach how COVID and isolation have fucked life up, and my story is just about family). Anyway, all things should be rolling down hill at this point but I have nothing whatsoever to put to page, it's really, really haunting and I'm getting depressed. Cut to the other day, my friend asks me to help him with his tabletop fantasy setting and wants a few lore dumps he can use for the campaign, so I gladly just type thousands of fucking words about wizards and orcs and get so sucked into this shit and feel like FINALLY I've unblocked it. Back today, and still nothing.

>>16889377
>Probably not many, but it only takes a rewrite or an editing pass to turn things from bad to good.
This. It's been said a hundred times before, but don't get too stuck on finding the "perfect words" in the first draft. You have all the time in the world to edit it afterwards. It's more important to get the basic structure down, so that you can see the big picture and what it needs.

And the fun part is, the more you write, the less you have to tweak it afterwards when you start to recognize the elements that your scenes need as you write them. But it only comes with time and experience.

>>16893162
Here's the first page to a story I'm trying to write. Any feedback is appreciated.

I never thought of the thing hanging from my shoulder as my arm. It was apparent that it did not think so either. It was just an arm, that for the most part, choose to be cooperative, for it's own sake rather than mine. It knew of course, that it would not take much for me to persuade it's left counterpart to do bad things to it, since they already had a feud going on– a rather vicious sibling rivalry of sorts.
At present though, these two fellows were calmly hanging by their respective sides, and the source of my distress were the lower twins, who, right after breakfast, decided that it was time for an elaborate pirouetting session,which they may or may not have planned and quietly practiced on my bed, while I was sleeping. I tried and tried to get these two mischievous brats to stop, but they, starved for action since yesterday, continued on with their frenzied jig. I felt the eggs I ate rise up to my throat. The right arm, anticipating what was about to happen, flung me across the room and grabbed a cup, just in time to catch the first wave of vomit midair.
This might seem like a noble deed, but the fact is that it knew a cup was easier to clean than a carpet, and it was going to be the one to do the cleaning anyway, since it was Saturday–Right's turn.

>>16893188

Hang in there. Inspiration and ideas are refilled slowly. You’ve finished some good stuff only 4 months ago and now this well needs to be refilled. And dont listen to ”dont wait for inspiration”-advice. There’s some truth to that but it doesn’t mean you can take a shit without having eaten first.

Relax, enjoy life and the small things, take time off for the holidays, go to coffee shops, read for the enjoyment of reading and eventually ideas will start poppin back into your noggin.
You cant force shit when you dont need to poop.

Any updates on /lit/ quarterly?

>>16893275
>dont listen to ”dont wait for inspiration”-advice.
Do you really think so? I get so afraid of what you're saying. I believe it too, but I can't help feeling like it's laziness talking. I get to these points and I can never remember how I managed to start the last time and start telling myself it's just a part of the process to smash your head against a brick wall until something comes. I agree with what you're saying and have been giving up most days after an hour, or 1000 words of something shitty, but it's the guilt of doing that that fucks me up more than anything as far as basic mental health goes.

Professor Abrafo Van Hassain examined Lupita’s sleeping form. Her skin was pale, and she struggled to breathe.

“My squad is looking fly,” murmured Lupita.

The retired doctor adjusted his spectacles.

“This is very serious, Jabari. You should have contacted me sooner.”

Van Hassain paused for a moment.

“Miss Lupita doesn’t have much time. She needs a blood transfusion immediately.”

“I’m already on it,” said Jabari. “I have my blood transfusion equipment right here.”

Van Hassain smiled.

“You were always my favorite student.”

Jabari tied a knot above Van Hassain’s elbow and disinfected his arm. He attached the other side of the tube to Lupita’s arm. Soon, red blood flowed from the old doctor to the young woman. As Lupita’s face regained its healthy pink flow, Dr. Van Hassain’s body slumped. Jabari shut off the pipes and bandaged his former teacher’s arm.

“I took too much, Professor,” apologized Jabari. “Let me go downstairs and get you some food.”

The two men ate dinner in Lupita’s room. Van Hassain slowly chewed his dikgobe, a traditional Botswanan dish of beans, corn, and lamb.

“What do you think of the marks on her throat?” asked Doctor Jabari Seward.

“Yes, the twin marks are curious,” said Van Hassain. ““There is no sign of disease. But look at the edges of the wound. The edges are serrated, as if something had gnawed on it.”

“I think those marks are related to how Lupita lost so much blood. But …”

“But what?”

“But the wounds are so small. She has no other injuries on her body. If she were attacked by a wolverine or dog, wouldn’t you expect her entire body to be covered with scratches and bites?”

Van Hassain tilted his head and looked over his glasses at Jabari.

“Exactly.”

He put his napkin on the table and stood up.

“I must go back to Amsterdam tonight. I will return in a week. In the meantime, you should move your office into this hotel room.”

“Abrafo, you can’t go back to Europe now. You’re still weakened from the transfusion.”

“In my home are my books. I wish to consult with them.”

“Then let me escort you.”

“No! You must keep Miss Lupita in your sight all night,” said Van Hassain. “Do you understand? It is vitally important that you stay awake here in her room. Do not slack in your duty – not even for a moment.”

>>16893275
>>16893321
Peter DeVries once said, "I write when I'm inspired, and I see to it that I'm inspired at nine o'clock every morning." Words to live by.

>>16893353

and that's maybe why i have no idea who he is.

The quote implies everyone is the same and that all ideas are of the same value. Which they're not. Maybe ol Pete worked that way, and i know you'll call me a pleb for not knowing who he is, but honestly different people work differently. That's what i find funny about people on these boards: they ask for life advice when they are perhaps nowhere near being the same kind of person as the one giving the advice. And believing we are tabula rasa and completely rewriteable is the biggest load of horseshit that ever hit the day of light.

Try different things, get to know what works for you and stick with it.

>>16893321

oh i missed your post, sorry!

Yes i really believe so. I have been creating art in different forms all my life and if there's one thing i learned is that there are passive processes that need to happen for things to get good.

I've had songs that took years to finish just cause i couldn't find the perfect matching chorus or whatever. But eventually many of them have become finished. Same is with writing, and with other things. Don't force shit, or you'll be mediocre like King or whoever this DeVries guy is.

(Practicing is a whole nother story. You can always practice, but then know you're doing it for the actual practice.)

>>16893400
That's such a loser mindset. You're saying people should just give up if something feels a little difficult at first, that you're stuck with whatever skill set you were born with, and that it's impossible for people to learn and grow. And that, my friend, is real bullshit.

Playing around is fine if you're just doing it for a casual hobby, but if you have any serious ambition to make it in the field, then you'd better find some semblance of professionalism in you.

>>16893487

that is not what i said, but you're right that if you wanna work nine to five with writing you'd better find a way to do it every day. Goes without saying really.
And i do have to stress again that i never said "give up when it gets hard". What i am saying however is that when you've done good, finished a project that's received positive reviews and you feel a bit exhausted and are having trouble staring again, you should give yourself a rest. Let ideas perculate, consume other culture, look at people and the world and get inspired. The fact that you have an active ambition for writing will automatically shape the things you see and try them as ideas. And eventually you will have enough stuff to start anew. But beating yourself up over not being where you'd hoped instead of looking at how far you have come is in fact what will make someone quit. I hope i have clarified what i mean.

However, i must say that i don't believe the people who work the most to be the best. Some people have better ideas and in my experience these people get them by having an open mind to the world instead of spending their time gettin whipped by stress and anxiety. The only thing a stressed mind will produce is a reiteration of that state in written form.

>>16893536
>that is not what i said
Well, your aggressive response to the quote made me assume otherwise, because it doesn't actually conflict anything what you said now.

>>16893239
I would rather shit in my hands and clap than read any more of this trash. Don't cling to this like some sunk cost bullshit, throw this entire fucking idea out the window.

>>16893162
Here's an excerpt of a book I'm writing. I'll appreciate any criticism

Jubilus groaned with exultation. "Why must it be me!". The quarterly solstice was coming to an end. A godhead became a necessity. Jubilus walked towards the edge of the empty pit. It reached down quite a distance. Maybe a kilometre, maybe to the other side of the quagral continuum. The primitives weren't allowed any tools except weapons. They couldn't measure. Jubilus glanced towards the distant forest as if he were to make a grand escape from this desolate rock of an complanet. Retard. There's no escape. Before he could make any more gesticulations, a primitive pushed him over. Down he fell into the pit. He kept screaming until he felt like it served no more purpose and fell to God knows where. Personally, I never liked him so whatever. The rest of us live to see another day.

>>16893730
>Jubilus groaned with exultation

>>16893580
Sorry for the aggro response but after all we’re on the internet and we are here to fight

Why don't you guys get a girlfriend who knows how to write/edit, so she can help you every day? Whenever you get stuck you can brainstorm with her, and she can always give you constant feedback without you having to spoil the entire plot online to strangers who don't care about your book or you.

>>16893828
Get a gf? Wow that's a great idea, I never thought of that before

>>16893790
I'm always up for a fight, but it's too much effort to dig up dispute where there is none.

>>16893239
Truly dreadful

>>16893828
Don't mix work and relationships

>>16893828
>write together with your gf
Sounds pretty damn gay. Like all those books where the author is "John <Surname> & Jill <Surname> and the dedication is "to my beloved wife who never gave up on me and helped me through the hard times!" Holy hurl

>>16893621
>>16893876
Can you elaborate?

>>16893828
I had a gf who would proof read and edit my work. I ruined it and am now dating a slav model who only reads in Serbian or Russian.

There are stories with bad prose that are successful and there's stories with good prose that are failures. Prose has nothing to do with the success of your book and anyone who is retarded enough to waste time & energy improving it is NGMI. Spend your energy on the things the reader actually cares about and maybe you will be able to write an interesting book.

>>16894126
I want to drink Hana's pee

>>16894131
GMI

I think I need a black version of garlic. What kind of seasoning vegetable or flower is quintessentially black, or at least African?

>https://pastebin.com/LpT98yZD
Why'm'st're you'nt write ??.

>https://pastebin.com/9ZYkiy3F
Pissed it

I have 330 page experimental novel/graphic novel that I spent a year sending out and getting rejected.

I got about 100 pages of good short stories I’ve spent another year trying to get into journals. I was going to self publish the short stories but then I thought why? Who would read it? I don’t like contemporary journals. Why should I try to shoehorn my goofy writing into peoples minds?

I am amazed that people still have an impulse to create anything when it takes 10 minutes on the internet to understand that modern people are utterly incapable of recognizing beauty or taste and your efforts will give you nothing back, whether that be payment, recognition, or simple thanks. That is, unless you cater to developmentally stunted children and reject any principle or virtue that makes a good man.
I'm not saying this with the implication that those who still sit down and do honest work are stupid or cucked, on the contrary I would love to find that motivation again but I am simply too jaded and bitter from the things I've seen over several years that I have spent in denial ni order to keep working, and in complete isolation in order to avoid the people I despised.
Where do I find this fortitude? It feels so absurd that I'm swarmed by ideas and I can work long hours, but I fail at this basic task of answering "why do it".

>>16894344
I would really love to see that graphic novel

>>16894344
Pay to get someone to look at your work.
Honestly, you sound like you'd be better off with self-publishing as it seems a unique medium/story and those are a very hard sell, but an editor would help you regardless.

>>16894361
Drop the nihilism and apocalyptic view. If there is no reason to try, don't try, go be a hedonist. There are plenty of beautiful and classy things created today, they're just very hard to find because the majority of society wants simplicity and directness from art. Art is no longer highly regulated by rich people, so you need to actually search for it yourself.

If you give a single shit about being paid or having "recognition" you should not write. The majority of writers have small followings at most and they're at a financial deficit trying to get their work out into the world. You should write for self-exploration, for self-fulfillment or, if you have a bit of artism, self-expression. If the act of writing isn't fun to you, you should not write.

Everything else you said is just nihilism and that's all on you to try and overcome it or just meander your whole life repeating "why bother?"

>>16894387
>If you give a single shit about being paid or having "recognition" you should not write. The majority of writers have small followings at most and they're at a financial deficit trying to get their work out into the world. You should write for self-exploration, for self-fulfillment or, if you have a bit of artism, self-expression. If the act of writing isn't fun to you, you should not write.
Of course, but why try to share or publish it then?

>>16894344
>I have 330 page experimental novel/graphic novel that I spent a year sending out and getting rejected.
How much time have you spent rewriting and editing? Is the draft you're pitching the closest to your vision as you can possibly get it without outside help? Completely, 100% free of grammatical/spelling issues?

Re: "why," that's something I've thought about a lot. How do you summon up the borderline-arrogance required to ask other people to read what you've written? How can anyone be so self unaware that they want to commit to the public domain a work in the same medium the greats worked in? I don't have a definitive answer, except to say that when I create something I like, I want to share it with others so maybe they can like it too. Or maybe not. Probably not, even. When it comes down to it, the only thing you have control over is what's written. You have to decide for yourself how much you want to water down your vision to make it more palatable to others. We're in a mature stage of capitalism where the economic structures around art supercede the art itself. As the margins diminish, so does the willingness to take risks. In an industry as developed as literature, the moneymen have figured out what works of art actually "work" economically. Their toadies, the professors, the agents, the publishers, the critics, the advertisers, they all work in concert to constrict the range of expression; all in the name of the almighty bottom line. Advertisers have successfully created an economic electorate glad to put into power the trite, sparse drivel which dominates the literature industry, and if you don't want to write like that, you'd better be the next Joyce. But because we don't reward experiments anymore, there will never be another Joyce.

So just, like, you know...

>>16894392
>If you give a single shit about [...] having "recognition" you should not write.
>The majority of writers [...] at a financial deficit trying to get their work out into the world.
Why are they trying to get their work out? This is what I don't understand since virtually every writer tries to get "recognition" for his work in one way or the other. Are you implying that these writers shouldn't write, simply because they desire some sort of validation for their writing?
>You should write for self-exploration, for self-fulfillment or, if you have a bit of artism, self-expression.
If all this act of creation should be entirely centered on the self, why not keep everything into a closet or destroy it after it's made?
>If the act of writing isn't fun to you, you should not write.
You can find the act of doing something "fun" but still find it pointless. Example: stroking your penis is fun, but it doesn't really amount to art if all you get out of it is fun, it's nothing but hedonism. If you are saying that the writer or artist should create for the fun of hitting a keyboard and seeing letters appear, then why pay editors? Why publish? Why anything, really? If the true end goal of the creator should be "having fun", how is making art or writing poetry any different from jerking off or playing video-games?

>>16893162
The Ode Less Travelled by Stephen Fry should be included in the OP under 'For Poetry'. It's a very educational and easy to read introduction to poetic forms and meter.

>>16894392
>>16894427
>Why are they trying to get their work out?
The same reason people talk to one another. It feels nice sharing ideas and having others say they enjoyed something you made. That sort of recognition is normal and healthy, but recognition of the sort that fame or popularity bring are different.

>>16894427
>why not keep everything into a closet or destroy it after it's made?
Most do keep them in closets, frequently unfinished. Even prolific authors like stephen king have a list of unpublished stories longer than their published stories.
>why pay editors? Why publish? Why anything, really?
Because not everyone ascribes to the "everything is worthless" point of view like you do. Some people try their hardest to have as many people enjoy their stories as possible because it brings them happiness knowing they have affected people. Regarding fun, I simply meant, to you personally, that if you're having an existential crisis over whether to write or not, it's clearly not something you should be doing and you should focus on more quick and direct ventures that fit your mode of thinking better. Others value things more and have passions.

>>16894392
I self publish on instagram because it isnt economically feasible to submit to journals

>>16894459
how much do you make on instagram?

>>16894451
>That sort of recognition is normal and healthy, but recognition of the sort that fame or popularity bring are different.
This. Really, don't try to get too absolutist about the recognition thing. There's a kind of recognition which is what a craftsman seeks for his best work. There's another kind of recognition which stems from a desire to take part in the structures of power which can arise around recognition. It's nice to be compensated for the things you do well, but the dichotomy at the heart of this is of motivations: do you create art for the sake of the creation itself or does he creation serve a function wrt you as the creator?

>>16894451
>That sort of recognition is normal and healthy, but recognition of the sort that fame or popularity bring are different.
Actually that sort of recognition was the recognition I was talking about. But even then, this looks like a no true Scotsman fallacy: it's still desire for "recognition" o "validation" even if it's not in the "fame or popularity" sense. And where exactly do you draw the line? When is it that simple validation becomes fame? What happens then, is the writer no longer a real writer?
>Some people try their hardest to have as many people enjoy their stories as possible because it brings them happiness knowing they have affected people.
Sound like a bunch of attention whores who don't do it "for fun", doesn't it? Why do they care so much that their work affects other people if they should be doing it all for themselves with no other narcissistic poison clouding their base motive to write?
>Regarding fun, I simply meant, to you personally, that if you're having an existential crisis over whether to write or not, it's clearly not something you should be doing
>Others value things more and have passions.
It's kind of weird that someone who isn't passionate to begin with, would have an existential crisis over whether or not he should keep going? Do you also think that suicides have no desire for a better life, and instead just like the idea of dying?
Yes I am nihilistic but I just don't see it.

>>16894485
See >>16894497
It's still "recognition" or "validation" and anon condemns it because the true artist should not be motivated by such things but just enjoy the act of creating.

>>16894427
>since virtually every writer tries to get "recognition" for his work in one way or the other

I just want my readers to have fun.

>>16894503
I don't want to get too P-zombie, but I basically believe that art for art's sake approaches altruism. If art is made for personal enrichment, it's functionally a different implementation of any other for-profit endeavor and deserves no glorification. The distinction is unknowable to an observer, but the unknowability doesn't invalidate the concept—it just makes it unknowable.

>>16894497
The point of nihilism is to deny all point and "not see" motivations, passions or cultural norms as necessary or having any reason behind them. It's a hole that you need to manually crawl out of because there IS no logical reasoning against it. Everything has no worth. Whether we all die of covid tomorrow or civilization continues for another thousand years, it doesn't matter. But that line of thinking does nothing for anyone and we wouldn't have the ability to think like that if its how our ancestors had thought. If you ever have any hardship in your life, you will understand how pointless it is to wallow in your own insignificance when you could be attempting to better things for yourself and those in the future, just like everyone before you.

As I alluded to, I can't see this discussion going anywhere because arguing with nihilism is pointless. I hope you find a way to escape the hole, anon, and can find reasons to actually dream and work towards those dreams.

>>16894319
i kinda like it

>>16894532
Yet this altruistic motive to art is always condemned by the public, who say that you should simply do it "for fun", "for yourself", etc. at the same time the same people glorify those who create explicitly with the intent of pleasing the public, give them awards, etc. Shouldn't these people be shunned instead, since everyone's idea of artist is of an autistic hedonist who creates for the thrill of creating and nothing else?
If one does accept creation as some sort of altruistic task, then what is the point of writing if one doesn't cater entirely to the public? Once it is established that people will not like your personal expression or the contents of your heart, why create? The point should be pleasing them, catering to them, and so one should write YA or something else that is relatable and pleasurable to the general public.
This entire conversation is drenched in hypocrisy.
>>16894542
>Everything has no worth.
But I don't think that? I think art has immense worth, but I see no point in making more of it since the worth of art is contained within its ability to impact other people. My issue is not with art, it's with the receiving end of the deal. How can you be more more nihilistic than I am toward the craft?
>If you ever have any hardship in your life, you will understand how pointless it is to wallow in your own insignificance when you could be attempting to better things for yourself and those in the future, just like everyone before you.
Actually it is hardships that made me think about this: in a time of high pressure and discomfort I am understanding how powerful human bonds can be. I have given immense value to my actions because I have seen actual rewards come back to me when I did something for others and this is actually a mechanic that ennobles both me and the people receiving my acts. There's none of this when it comes to art in its current state. Actually there's only the far end of the spectrum that exists in real time: no holds barred sociopathy will get you to climb higher and quicker. That's it.

>>16894584
>Shouldn't these people be shunned instead, since everyone's idea of artist is of an autistic hedonist who creates for the thrill of creating and nothing else?
I gave up on trying to understand what the general public does a long time ago. Personally, I'm actually completely unable to cater to them because I don't really participate in their culture. I can only write things I understand from my own point of view, and I don't actually know anything. Why should anyone pretend to? The commonly agreed-upon notions of what makes something "good" have utility only in the more abstract sense that they are agreed-upon. Some people are very firmly entrenched in that social commonality and therefore make digestible works of art with that commonality in mind.

I went off on a tangent I'm realizing. I've never thought of the act of creating art as hedonism and would have to think on it.

Stupid question maybe but what do you guys write with?
I've been just dumping words in a google doc

>>16894721
Word

>>16894637
>I went off on a tangent I'm realizing. I've never thought of the act of creating art as hedonism and would have to think on it.
I'd like the hear your thoughts. I'm waging war against hedonism in my life and this is an important point to me. Is my attachment to the arts just a vice in disguise? That's all there is that is left. I have read some Buddhist texts and there are arguments against art that are coherent with the thought system, see Talaputa sutra. So far I can only think of art in two dimensions, one is communication, which people condemn in the hypocritical way I pointed out before and which will give me no results whatsoever because I cannot cater explicitly to a public I do not respect, nor I cannot impact anybody with my most genuine efforts, the other is the pleasure of creation itself which is clearly hedonistic and thus I would better do without in favor of other practices.

One of the young vagabonds suddenly stopped, pointed with his skinny finger at one of the houses and said that a witch lived there and that his brother, when he had to fetch water one night, saw her come riding out of the chimney on her broomstick laughing like mad. The other boys had stopped, too, now, looked at the smoking chimney and debated whether one of their skinny troop would fit through the narrow shaft. It was generally considered more than questionable - not to mention the impossibility that a full-grown witch on her broomstick could fit through. Thus the story was dismissed as a fabrication, not because there were no witches, but, as I said, because the chimney was far too small to fly through. As a result, Pietr, who was only recounting what his brother had told him, was puffed on the skinny shoulders by seven hard hands. Only the thoughtful Rurin remarked, after puffing Pietr, that if a witch signed the contract with the devil, she could transform herself into all kinds of animals and perhaps even change her size. He did not find an ear with this objection, however, and while he was still speaking, he had put a big gumdrop between his teeth, which muddied his limping mouth even further.

>>16894371
Thanks anon. Here is a sample no one outside my friend circle has seen.

>>16894387
Good advice. I did have one publisher offer to do that. For $5,000 and a year of working with him. It was going to be a lot of work to redraw everything digitally, cleaning the writing, and promoting it myself. He would help set up book signings and promotions at bookstores, but I would do the majority of promotion. I turned it down because it didn't seem worth the effort.

>>16894412
It is 99.% there. I spent a lot of time re-reading everything, grammar checks, rewrites, etc.

To your second paragraph, I agree. That's essentially the feeling I had when the 1 publisher offered to help me for $5 grand. I wrote my book over 3 years and mailed it in sections to about 10 of my friends who live throughout the US. It wasn't intended to be a book, but a creative exercise because I had moved away, had no friends, and wanted to create something. It doesn't fit a marketing strategy or a revenue stream. It is fucking real and I made it.

I appreciate the thoughts everyone.

>>16893162
what's the point in even trying to get published when your work will be rejected by crying Penguin employees who think you're racist/sexist/homophobic?

>>16894865
you should write for fun
finish your manuscript and be happy that it's finished :^)

>>16894721
I started in notepad, then went to Word. Eventually when I reached the point of getting things ready for publishing, I switched to Scrivener for ease of exporting to manuscript formatting.

>>16894790
You're better off asking on /adv/ or outer /lit/. Or even better, stop asking for opinions on 4chan and decide for yourself.

>>16894865
Not everyone has content that would fall into those categories, though they do seem to be broadening in recent years. If you're worried, self-publishing is just as viable and you won't randomly get dropped unless it's some extremely racist shit.

>>16894878
>unless it's some extremely racist shit

by racist I just mean the main character is white

>>16894878
>You're better off asking on /adv/
lmao
>Or even better, stop asking for opinions on 4chan and decide for yourself.
So basically there is no counter-argument to what I am saying

>>16894977
I'm not arguing for or against what you said because I honestly skimmed all the ranting above. I just read that post and can see that discussing "the philosophy behind whether humans writing and creating art is hedonistic" isn't meant to be discussed in a thread talking about writing and getting published. People here want to talk about writing techniques and post things for critique, outer /lit/ talks philosophy.

>>16895006
aight

>>16894865
why doesn't Penguin offer a print on demand service? They could probably make money hand over fist

I've started to doubt the solidity of the premise upon which my entire novel is founded. I don't know whether this is a regular hindrance for most writers, or if this is something that should not happen in the process of writing and which I ought to interpret as an alarming sign.

>>16893828
I have this / do this. Very comfy not going to lie. And because she's a GF she doesn't try to force her own ideas into the story, she just listens and then helps me edit. Occasionally she'll point out something specific she likes, but keeps it simple.

>>16894886
Just leave the race of your protagonist without mention unless it is crucial to the plot. Then you can get published without any issue and the only concern you'll have is that they will cast a black guy for the movie adaptation of your novel (least likely scenario) or portray him as black in the book cover (most likely scenario). And those are such non issues that you should not even worry about them.

>>16895437
>Just leave the race of your protagonist without mention
Easier said than done. Sometimes you want to describe the tone of skin, or the hair, the color of the eyes, etc, for a scene. Those moments may reveal the "race" of your characters.

>>16895428
Depends on the story you're telling. If its sci-fi or fantasy then you're going to have to accept your world is retarded on some level, as your reader will. If its a normal drama without magic of science fiction elements, then yeah you might be in trouble.

>>16895428
If your novel is based on the premise of Berenstein Bears being spelled Berenstain Bears, then you're fucked

My novel includes two narratives; one that's the main body of the story, and a second one that is relates to the original, but as an account of the chain of events that led to the main plot. I've thought of having the protagonist relate those events now and then as a first person narrator in conversation, but I'm not sure if that would be the smoothest way to convey it. Do you have any suggestions?

is there any chance that my novel about how much I despise my ex-gf would get picked up, or will I have to self-publish it?

>>16895776
It's a personal drama in a setting that teeters between magic realism and fantasy. My protagonist is supposed to work through her issues in this enviroment. I'm concerned that her trauma isn't profund enough to justify her mental state. Basically, she feels responsible for the death of a family member, has a mother who claimed to hate her, an emotionally distant father, a stalker who brutalized her, and a man who took advantage of her to put his dick in her. Is this too much or too little?

>>16896323
I'm not sure I'm fully understanding, but having a "past" and "present" narrative is a somewhat common practice. If you're thinking about switching between 1st and 3rd person, I'd say it should be avoided. You could add a small flavor text to the beginning of each chapter in 1st person, succinctly getting across one piece at a time whatever information you want to reveal.

>>16896407
Too much, unless she's going to snap. As long as you do a good job of explaining why and how things affect her, you could get away with one or two of those. Having so many traumas can feel edgy or unrealistic.

>>16896393
Heartbreak has inspired lots if authors. Try to dissimulate the most grounded and personal details, keep the sentiments as real as possible and your chances of publication won't suffer beyond the usual.

>>16896424
>I'm not sure I'm fully understanding, but having a "past" and "present" narrative is a somewhat common practice. If you're thinking about switching between 1st and 3rd person, I'd say it should be avoided. You could add a small flavor text to the beginning of each chapter in 1st person, succinctly getting across one piece at a time whatever information you want to reveal.
I've thought of having sections a la Heart of Darkness in which the protagonist's dialogue takes over the role of narration for a while before returning to the third person, retelling the past events as they relate to the present story at hand, rather than going for a chronological order of presentation.
>Too much, unless she's going to snap. As long as you do a good job of explaining why and how things affect her, you could get away with one or two of those. Having so many traumas can feel edgy or unrealistic.
That's what I feared. I did want her to feel like someone whose need for affeccion has mixed in with a certain level of misantrophy and a profound sense or unworthyness to be loved. But I don't want to write about how "life sucks, man". I want to compose a picture of melancholy that still leaves a window open for hope and healing. For that I need people to care about the protagonist. Do you believe that so much hardship will evoke apathy rather than sympathy?

>>16896491
It really depends on the pacing and the way you approach it. If there is positivity dappled throughout and it's not just a trauma bonanza with an occasionally positive outlook, then it could probably work. If the negatives are explained with a significant distance between them and it doesn't ever feel brooding, and instead the focus is on the positives despite the negatives that are brought up, I think you're fine.

As for the viewpoints, Heart of Darkness sits unread on my shelf so I can't be sure the exacts of how it's implemented, but it sounds neat. If it seems within your capability and you think it fits the story, give it a shot, anon.

What is the difference between a well written rape scene and a bad one?

Anyone here published smut on amazon? How well does it sell usually? I write smut for commissions so I know I'm halfway decent at it.

>>16896550
Thank you for your encouragement. I decided to start the story after all the trauma has taken place so that I can sprinkle it more broadly over the larger narrative. The setting for the majority of the book will be a fantastical one, nonexempt from danger, of course, but which will allow the protagonist to find a friend with whom to share her journey. I do want there to be a tinge of sadness enveloping everything, but without giving up on some lighter situations and character interactions. The traumatic events would be relayed through the protagonist's recount filtered by the passage of time. Still open wounds, but without the immediate violence of the cut, so to speak.
What Heart of Darkness does is having its main character overtake the nameless narrator that presents himself at the beginning. So you end up with a character that takes away the role of narrator from the main narrator, but done in a clever way that allows the reader only to hear what the protagonist wants to reveal. We get no insight into the thoughts he doesn't want to share because we're hearing him through the ears of the actual narrator. I want to try something like that, but on a much more reduced scale.

>>16896583
even the letters are taken by coomers
one day I'll quit everything and decide to do woodworking and I'll discover that everyone sculpts wooden assplugs on a lathe

>>16896662
What letters?

>>16896572
If it's written as traumatic from the side of the victim, it's bad. If it's written as the greatest, most exhilarating experience of the rapist's life, it's good.

>>16896701
these

>>16896707
What, the letters t, h, e, and s?

Will I seem cooler if I start drinking when I write? I hate drinking alcohol but I am desperately obsessed with what others think of me

>>16896719
yes. and these as well

can I be writer pls, yes?~~~~

will look through the thread to see if I can give some constructive criticisms :3c

Any ideas on how to avoid writing superfluous prose and sacrificing substance for overly meticulous descriptions?

>>16896835
Write screenplays instead

>>16896835
Editing comes to mind.

I know nobody cares but I quit.
I tried this year's NaNoWriMo but lost inspiration a few days after starting and haven't write shit since then.
I'm a failure with no motivation.

>>16894847
I feel like this could be way more dynamic if you made some cuts and introduced some dialogue instead of sticking to only indirect speech. Here I'll have a go at the beginning:
One of the vagabonds stopped and pointed at the house on their right. The others shuffeled on without even looking at him.
“A witch lives there”, he said. Five heads, five faces smeared with dirt and boredom turned to him.
“Me brother saw ‘er while gettin’ water”, he continued. “Swear ta God. Laffin’ like a made one too, she was.” He scratched his head.
The others followed his skinny finger to the rickety hut. Its crooked chimney drooled ribbon after ribbon of dark smoke into the air.
“Nah”, said the tallest of the bunch.
“Ye. Nah, Tom”, said another. “Don’t noone fit through there.”
The hairlipped one put his hands flat on his waist, moved them up, then, with one eye closed, to and fro in line with the chimney.
“Nah, Tom. Yer a moron”, he said. A few droplets of spit rolled from his lips and carved lines into the dirt on his chin. “Kid wudn’t fit, unless it’s a teensiest one, I reckon, and a grown woman”, he shook his head, “Yer a moron, Tom.”

>>16896884
I never even attempted it

Scrivener unironically helped me. Had to pirate it because I'm a poorfag, but my story is starting to pick up steam because of it.

>>16896835
Write line by line.

1. There once was a boy.
2. He knew he was destined for great things.
3. His father was the king of an entire kingdom, but the boy wanted none of that.

The above is an example of telling a story in a fable-like fashion. Stops you from describing the colour of the sky and the smell of the air too much.

Line by line, not paragraph by paragraph.

>>16896884
>muh inspiration
>muh motivation
it's time to grow up

>>16896957
these comics are always drawn by shit and appeal to the lowest common denominator because they're ironically, uninspired consumer trash
it really shows that all these people have going for them is shitting one awful relatable instagram comic a day like it's some kind of high achievement. Never had a problem with work ethic but these days I fully stand by the people who quit and feel uninspired, there's nothing to say, not because there is actually nothing to say but because nothing is valuable in the hearts and minds of people
so yes get disciplined and write some 1000 words of that YA novel or something who fucking cares

>>16897015
>all these words to cope with having no discipline
It's still time to grow up.

>>16897040
I said I never had a problem with work ethic or getting "motivated".

Tips on writing sonnets?

>>16897046
Don't

>>16897044
So you're just being a contrarian for the sake of it. Gotchya.

>>16896957
This is horrible writing advice given by Brandon Sanderson. You should only force yourself if you go weeks without writing, and only if you're trying to make a living writing uninspired genre fiction, admitting you're making lesser work because most people can't tell the difference (as Sanderson admits to doing).

If you aren't trying to make it or you write every day or every few days naturally, just keep going. If you're the type of person who writes 5k words in one sitting and then skips a week or two, do that.

>Start planning a story
>Quickly takes a depressing and emotional turn
>Get to the ending
>Emotionally exhausted

I hate this.

What do y'all (you all) think of my iambic pentameter play? I wrote it to accompany another project. It's meant to be like Shakespeare except terrible.

>>16893162
>Write something and think its good
>Look at it this morning
>Its garbage
T-time for another rewrite

>>16897188
If by terrible you mean not even iambic pentameter, then good job. If not, learn what it is, count the syllables properly and be more careful with stressed and unstressed sounds.

>>16897128
Isn't that good? If the audience has the same kind of emotional reaction to it then you know its a good story.

>>16897194
>one day
>hate my ideas and everything I've ever made
>next day
>love my ideas and the good things I've made
Seems to be an endless cycle. The only solution is to power through the bad times and not get too excited in the good times.

>>16896894
I can't write like that, regrettably. I have to tell, not show. I have to keep my narrator at a distance and I have to filter everything through his nasal voice. You are right though: I have to make things more dynamic. I like parts of the last sentence: "He did not find an ear with this objection, however, and while he was still speaking, he had put a big gumdrop between his teeth". Playing with time and the sequence of events seems to be a possible way of making things more dynamic. Thanks for your effort, anon.

>>16897213
Fun fact, I couldn't even comprehend what was meant by "stressed" and "unstressed" syllables until I had finished that draft of that play.

>>16897092
>with us or against us
I was pointing out that "motivation" and "discipline" mean nothing if what you are producing is garbage, and I find it annoying that every single hack who shits relatable instagram comics or crappy YA fiction will stand by this idea tooth and nail because that's all they have going for them. As with many things, a creative craft is a mix of elements and this view is simplistic as shit.

>>16897095
Depends. Writing is not some magical thing where a muse whispers words into your ears when she gets in the mood and your write when that happens. It’s work, usually hard work, sometimes unpleasant, boring, frustrating, but in the end it’s work. I have written plenty of great stuff (math stuff) when under the wire and there’s a deadline looming. A lot of times much better quality work than the writing I do when I get into the mood after screwing around a lot.

>>16896957
This reminds me of this one guy on twitch who streamed every day. Probably still does, if he believed his own rhetoric. He'd explain everything he was doing and why he was doing it as he prepared to write.
>"Okay guys, I'm going to do a warm-up. This is to get my creative juices flowing! Doesn't matter what you write, as long as you're writing. Feel free to join me, grab a paper and just write whatever is on your mind. 'Sally is on a boat on the ocean.' "
>reads every word out loud as he types it
And then he would write and he'd talk through the whole thing and it was all so bad. It was some fantasy epic with seventy characters and a multiverse and read like a screenplay. But half the time he'd be saying "t-this is how the professionals do it" to try and motivate himself. He had that image and others cycling in the corner of his stream, which is what reminded me of him. I hope he's doing well. I doubt he has improved, but as long as he's happy.

>>16897314
For me, it is separated into two processes: writing and editing. I never force myself to write, but I do frequently force myself to edit. Writing doesn't feel like work at all, editing is hard work and I hate it.

>>16897235
Aw. You should've mentioned that before, anon. I put some thought into that post.

>>16897319
Sounds like fantasy RC Waldun

>>16897095
>This is horrible advice given by (some hack)
No it's not. It's ancient wisdom you happened to hear from (some hack) and immediately disregard because you heard it from (some hack).
In reality, forcing yourself to write is absolutely a good thing to do no matter what caliber of work you're making. A terrible draft is better than no draft, because a terrible draft can be improved, while nothing can happen to nothing. That mentality of "just write whenever you feel like bro XD" is what leads to spending years working on something terrible that may never even get finished.
If you set aside time to write every day, even if it's only fifteen minutes, you will produce a greater volume of work than if you lie down and wait for the next fleeting moment that passion takes you. And the more you write, the better you'll get at it.

Sup /wg/,

Super excited with my final word count for my first novel's 3rd draft. My sources tell me a debut fantasy novel should be no longer than 120K, so I'm quite excited with getting it down to 113K !

Also, I'm new to the thread. Any general advice for a first-time writer?

>>16897319
>streaming yourself writing on Twitch
huh. i guess it makes sense because they added the "creative" category but I would never have guessed someone actually does that.

>>16897425
Congrats! Remember us when you're published with Random Penguin

>>16897319

>>16893239
No fucking idea what's going on but I enjoyed reading it anyway

>>16897402
I didn't first hear it from him, it's a common piece of advice for other fields, but he is the one that people frequently quote in regards to writing. Just like Bukowski is often quoted as saying the opposite.
It's a bad piece of advice because that sort of advice is only for and taken seriously by new writers. Anyone with a few years of experience writing already knows what works for them. Saying "you need to force yourself to write, even if you don't want to or feel like it" will turn away anyone who writes from inspiration, and acting like you're only a true scotsman if you follow it is false altogether. I have books published and I write in spurts because it's what works to me. I'm jealous of those who are more regular, but when it comes to writing, forcing myself makes my writing have poor vocab, poor pacing and outright dumb decisions that need so much reworking that it's better to just wait a day or two until I feel like writing and likely only need to edit.
If people can work like a machine, writing exactly 2k words a day, that's great for them and I understand why they'd recommend it to others, but implying that it's the only way to work is simply false.

>>16897521
Obviously it's not the only way to work.
But writing more is better.

>>16897521
? The advice is centered around new writers, who need to write quantity, write shit stories, and write shit novel's. No one is telling a Penguin published author that they need to write everyday, but, new writers (teens, early 20's) absolutely should write as a habit.

>5k words a day
>50-120k words total
Jesus. You people have no idea how good you've got it. My longest screenplay is 26k words and that's extremely excessive.

>>16897521
Also, there's a difference in writing only when you get some magic inspiration that comes out of no-where, and writing only after you've mentally plotted it out and given it a couple days of thoughts. You should absolutely not write only when you get some supernatural tingling that you should.

>>16897566
Screenplays are different, in all fairness to you, anon. Aren't they usually only around 20-30k?

>>16897521
>>16897402
Nobody has ever dealt with this sort of idiotic conception of work ethic before the internet. If you were good you'd get signals that would keep you going, if you were bad you'd quit. Relatable instagram comic artists say that motivation works like this:
>I will sit down in my airtight bubble and spam relatable marketable trash and then spam that shit in the internet abyss for an indefinite amount of time until the algorithm grants me a high enough number of followers to pitch my merchandise (it actually kind of works if you make relatable instagram comics)
How motivation actually works is something like:
>Finish yet another draft of that story you were told had potential by a friend or something
>"I made a short story, are you interested?"
>"Yes, we'll pay you 50$ if you write 3 more of these short stories due end of month"
>Later at the fair where you published in a zine with friends or something
>"I made a thing and printed it out, wanna read it?"
>"Sure here's your 1$!"
>"Hey I have read your thing, that was nice! Have you written more like that?"
>"I have this other idea, maybe I can try pitching it to that magazine, they already know me after all..."
>"Hey someone finally accepted that other thing I made"
>"I have to finish those 3 stories first and then I'll get to work on the other thing"
If you think this is wishful thinking you are insane. People work on simple conditioning mechanics where you do a thing and you get rewards somewhere, there is no other thing that sustains in the human mind. Literally everything works on the basis that you get some kind of reward for what you put in it, at some point. Maybe that reward will be miserable by all sane standards but for someone who is passionate any amount of reward will be enough to keep going. This idea that you should no matter what get up and sit down and work as if motivation didn't depend on anything at all is tailor made for the atomized modern society of lone salarymen.

>>16897698
No one picks up a pencil and writes anything good for the first time. Authors wrote for many years before anyone gives a fuck about them, the positive signaling only occurs when they've spent a decade grinding, tossing away shit draft over shit draft. That's what makes writing different, unless you're talking about positive reinforcement relative to the experience level of the writer, then sure.

>>16897698
There's two delusional retards on /lit/ - the ones who think that if they just sold their soul, they could write the ASOIAF or Wheel of Time series, and the other is the moron who thinks they're just going to wake up one day and write Finnigan's Wake.

>>16897720
Of course not, but in this stage you usually know that you are growing. You're also likely a teenager and you have a buddy who likes what you do or also does the same thing. No fucking person spends a decade doing a thing with no motivating feedback in return until all of a sudden he gets published and sells a million copies.
Working people got a reward here and there for their craft. That's what kept them going. if you don't believe that you can read their history and look at their resume. I have never found a single case where this kind of schizophrenic work ethic was enabled. There are plenty who didn't publish anything but they had people around them who appreciated what they did. This is what motivation takes root in.

How to write a scene of an actress trying to seduce a director during an audition?

>>16897634
Screenplays are measured in pages rather than words since the format is standardized. Each page translates to roughly a minute of runtime. My 90 page screenplay (1hr30min, standard movie runtime) is only 14k words. Then again I always try to keep it simple with the action descriptions which are usually what inflate a screenplay's word count.

If you guys think editing your manuscripts is hard, try writing a screenplay. The one I'm in the middle of could easily turn out to be 260 pages (around 45k words, over 4 goddamn hours) and I have no fucking clue what I'm gonna do with it. I'm in love with every scene, but I'm gonna have to kill some of them.

>>16897766
Is your frame of reference only author's who became famous before the internet? As someone who lives in reality, and has seen the advent of many unknown faces becoming well-known throughout the globe in the half-end of their lives, authors who have only appeared in their late 30's, and as someone who doesn't know how many times any of these author's got a pat on the back from mommy or their childhood friends, it's pretty clear that a-lot of these guys spent decades, at the very least, one decade, writing garbage that fills up their bookshelves, if not publishing middling works and only hitting it off 20 years later.

To become an author, and I'm not talking about Bukowski or [insert great author here] you're going to need to bite down and look at a grim future before you can ever collect a first check.

I'm debating myself between writing or reading. I'm not sure I feel like writing, but today would be the second day I do nothing to advance my novel and that sense of guilt starts to build up.

>>16897793
First, you must understand that that's a very rare occurrence. Coppla did an interview with Howard Stern where he explained it well. The image of a flirty actress trying to seduce a director is a rare occurrence. Most of them want to come off as smart and sophisticated. My experience casting actresses was much the same.
Second, you must discard everything I've just told you because realism in art is a fool's pursuit. Just think of whatever would make you all hot and bothered and make her do that. Don't hold yourself back, either. Your goal is probably to incite catharsis, so the more emotion you spark in yourself, the better.

>>16897808
I have never read of, or witnessed anybody who went on honing a craft every day without any positive stimulus coming back in any shape or form for decades. I have certainly not read about any authors who experience that, as - like you pointed out - they published middling works throughout their careers and then hit it off sometime later. With the internet these rewards are incredibly abstract, people celebrate follower milestones, you don't interact with real people but practiced marketers all the time who adopt the same mindset.
What I am saying is that the internet and the motivational hack frauds that market themselves on it have completely distorted the idea of "discipline" or "work ethic" as if they were completely unhinged from getting some sort of reward or positivity back for what you do, whether that's a pat on the back from mommy or money from a publisher. It's absolute shit to work like this. Have you ever had a real life friend, in the flesh, who was as passionate as you were about the craft? Have you been encouraged by a woman who saw potential in what you did? Do you know how good it feels to be paid cash and be told your work is valuable? Now what's the reward, 100 followers, 1000 followers? Being surrounded by other marketers?

>>16893321
i try to have a few different strands of projects going on at once. prose, poetry, and essays. chances are if im stumped on one for a while one of the others will be easier to work on. im primarily a prose writer but i treat poetry as a kind of brainstorming workshop for using interesting words and phrases and ideas that come to me without having the pressure to fully incorporate them into narrative, and can think more on the level of sound and rhythm. definitely not saying poetry is easier or that im any good at it, but working in a medium of literature that you enjoy but isnt your primary pursuit is a good way to take pressure off yourself in the downtime between your primary project while still letting you write and play with language. depending on your other interests this could be screenplays, drama, song lyrics, art criticism, etc.

overall i think that "treat writing like your job" is bad advice if it isnt your job and unless you have a very particular kind of sensibility will just make you hate doing it and/or produce middling work. that said i think that if you find yourself inspired to write so rarely that in a year you finish nothing or very little, you will need to either reconsider your literary ambitions or find some way to get more writing done. even if i hate the machinistic way pop-writer gurus talk about how youre not ever going to amount to any unless you churn out words constantly no matter what, it is still true that it's a craft that you need to practice for a long time to be competent at, and then even longer to be good at.

something else that takes pressure off of me that i would recommend is coming to terms with the fact that you will never be a "famous author." people like stephen king or whoever base their writing advice on the premise that you want a chance the best-sellers list. first of all, you need to curtail your artistic ambitions for there to even be any chance of that, and second, there will still be basically no chance of that at all, youll just be one of the other millions of people reading blogposts about 10 tips on how to structure a compelling plot or whatever and never write anything decent. come to terms with that and be okay with it, then focus on finding smaller circles whose main literary ambition is to write good things theyre proud of, and those are good people to read and provide commentary on what you write

>>16897884
I think there are a-lot of aspiring authors who've gotten published in their highschool/community college/ maybe University's newspapers and have gotten positive feedback in their critique class or local library's writers workshop, but still, know they're writing shit and are looking at 15 years before they ever get published. Now, I totally agree, that if you've been writing for 5 years and never get positive feedback, only comments like "that's relatable and interesting" then sure, that's folly and bullshit. I'm not talking about Instagram followers of people who whore out their books (which their audience likes as a secondary to their asses or blogs) but, writers who have a natural real-life inkling that they might be talented at this, and are looking at publishing through legitimate outlets decades in the future. I just don't like the attitude that tells aspiring writers that they aren't going to have to work half of their lives without getting actual public recognition for their work, because the road is going to be really fucking hard, even if you're talented.

>>16897874
Anon, that's exactly the answer I wanted. You seem to know how this works. I want the scene to feel "real", because I want to show the actress subtly trying to seduce the director for a role she knows she can't get, unless she resort to these kind of things. But, how would a plausible scenario look like?

>>16897319
>I'm going to do a warm-up. This is to get my creative juices flowing!
Wait is this a thing?
How do you warm up for writing?

>>16897935
I think if you have any positive signals and you love what you do, then you will be naturally inclined to work as hard as you can on it. If you do not function like this you probably aren't very interested to begin with and you're maybe more of a hobbyist who can sustain with nothing but also treats the thing as a very secondary time killer. So I think all the "you MUST sit down and do it" stuff is bullshit. If you love it you will do it, but there needs to be a spark.
At least this is how I function and how I have seen other sane, driven people function when it came down to their own passion projects. After everyone moved over to social media this has become so incredibly dull and the rewards so abstract that you have to be more of a calculated, planning type of person than someone who functions on this basis of simple action and reward to not go insane.

>>16897986
>How do you warm up for writing?
You write zany greentexts on 4chan for 12 hours, obviously

>>16897986
I think it's a thing for people who are trying to write. No one who has finished a novel does a warm-up.

>>16898015
Okay, I think we agree. If you're someone who is actually devoted to writing, you're naturally going to be obsessed with it, and you aren't going to need people telling you online how much to write. Conversely, I think anyone who "decides" though it's more of an obligation if you're serious, that they're only going to write when they get some supernatural random spark, then they're never going to get anywhere. It makes me really angry when I see all of these people thinking they're just going to wake up one day and write "The Road" when they haven't even written a story yet. I mean, the road to authorship is going to be brutal, and that also means understanding that you can't just sell your soul and hack it to getting some Fantasy book published, that's delusional thinking. Look, if a twelve year old family member came up to you and asked for your advice on where he/she should start, wouldn't you tell them that just writing is a good first step? Regardless of age, any "new" aspiring author needs to work out their ability to just write, and I've found that people adverse to this (but people who think way too highly of themselves) think that greatness is just going to arrive on an invisible chariot.

>>16897986
Press every key on your keyboard one by one to warm up your hands for typing

Any good books on academic writing? I'm looking at going to university next year (as a mature student) so would be helpful

Whenever I read stories on here they're boring because you guys take 3 pages to get across the point that someone went to the bathroom to take a shit and then washed their hands afterwards.

>>16898057
>you can't just sell your soul and hack it to getting some Fantasy book published, that's delusional thinking. Look, if a twelve year old family member came up to you and asked for your advice on where he/she should start, wouldn't you tell them that just writing is a good first step? Regardless of age, any "new" aspiring author needs to work out their ability to just write, and I've found that people adverse to this (but people who think way too highly of themselves) think that greatness is just going to arrive on an invisible chariot.
I think "just write" makes no sense just like that, in a bubble. There's a mix of things that go hand in hand.
When you teach a kid something you usually watch the kid do a task and fix things as he goes. You also have to motivate the kid in some way or he'll get burned out. The advice you give will be always different because everyone makes different mistakes and does things in a different way. It's incredibly reductive to say "just do the thing" with no direction, no possibility of a reward nor a remark about what someone's doing wrong, and so on.
You need to be doing a specific something first. You can't just sit down and write if you have no fucking idea of what you want to write. After that you need to understand that your judgement is flawed. You'll need something that tells you what you are doing right or wrong, but that can be arranged. What you need in the end is some kind of reward, even something symbolic, that says "this is worthwhile, keep doing it".
The "just sit down and do it" thing works on one assumption: that you're following a very specific formula. If you just set out on writing YA you can probably just sit down and grind until the formula looks right. You can sit down and make a shitty relatable comic where you tell people to draw every day to get good at drawing except you can't draw yourself. You already know what the final thing should look like because there are dozens of things like that and you can see that they are well received numerically. You take a look at those and you can see how they're merchandized etc. If you do mindless work that formula is great. Actually you're not even going to work that much on the thing, since you'll realize pretty quickly that most of your work will be marketing.

>>16898161
>take 3 pages to get across the point
True. On my first draft I would spend way too much time on what my BFF would describe as "routine", as in things that are not dramatically relevant. I'm hoping that now that I went through the entire thing a few times and reduced/removed as much as possible of this, the flow of the writing is going to be a lot better (the word count certainly improved!)

I think the key there is to find a balance about what is relevant to show, and what you can leave to people's imagination. Trying to over detail descriptions, mundane actions and etc is not only pointless but also works against you

>>16898161
I think a lot of the prose here just tries too hard.

Would rewriting (turning an author's prose into my own, but keeping the concept the same) short stories be a better practice than creating my own stories from scratch? I have been doing the latter and my stories just suck. John Keats learned by rewriting classic poems as well.

>>16898179
It's absolutely delusional to think that you can get published if you just "sell your soul" and structure a winning formula. It's absolutely delusional to think you could write some Dan Brown adjacent novel if you just hacked it up. You can't.

>>16897970
>I want the scene to feel "real"
The operating word here is "feel," and it is contrasted by "be." Like I said, I wouldn't try to simply replicate reality. Any dunce can do that. Takes more skill to boil reality down to its most essential parts and use them to create something more real than real i-m-o. But your work, your choice
I recommend you watch Muholland Dr. It does an excellent job of depicting the casting process. But most Lynch films are about as far from real "real" as you can get, so keep that in mind if you're still in pursuit of "being" real. My casting process is more like a psychological evaluation, I've never seen the value in having the actors perform a scene, but that's how most of Hollywood does it. It's usually either in some drap office or on a set being built, depending on how far along preproduction is. There's also generally a lot of people sitting around, most of whom don't need to be there, piping in every now and then. It suffers greatly from the boardroom effect; everyone offers conflicting opinions and they setting on an option nobody is particularly happy with. Not what I'd call a romantic atmosphere, but with a small dash of unreality, you could make it work.

>>16898213
Writing the thing? Absolutely, are you crazy? Have you ever read middle ground YA fantasy trash that people buy? It's stuff that makes you want to gouge your eyes out. The hard part is marketing. Now that's something you can't just do without know-how.

>>16898238
You really think all of the thousands of people who think they could recreate Stephen King novels or Sanderson novels could, if they just really dropped their moral standards and decided to stoop into the intellect of midwits and soccer moms? I mean, anyone who has been in any workshop circles, at the local library. Barns and nobles, college, community writing circles, has met these kinds of people, and they're usually shit. If it was so easy, everyone would be doing it.

>>16898270
Do you think it's the writing that makes the difference here?

>>16898276
I dont think anyone regular on /lit/ who shares your sentiment could write The Shining if you gave them a hundred years. And I'm not saying the book is incredible, I'm just saying that I think there are a shit ton of people here who are either resentful writers who overestimate their abilities by a mile, and delusional egotistical morons who think they're just too morally high to write "The Stormlight Archives" but actually could if they decided to tomorrow.

>>16898295
I am pretty sure that although there are many delusional people in the world, there are plenty who are capable of shitting out yet another milquetoast YA urban fantasy adventure that would look like similar works of the genre after a round of editing. Among those people, it's not the writing that makes the difference but how fucking hard they shill their product.
I don't know why you insist that I'm talking about future millionaire best sellers. I'm talking about people who sell, there are plenty of those who self-publish or run their biz on Amazon.

Hey, anons. I'm looking for criticism. It's a short story, nothing ambitious. Tell me if you were entertained. I'm planning to end things there but idk, may extend it if you think it's worth it.

Sorry for being so blackpilled btw. I'll leave you guys alone.

>>16898384
Also you should copypaste that in a post, the image is microscopic

>>16898406
What you said makes sense, it's okay.
>>16898411
Doing that right now.

I rubbed my tired eyes and prepared to bid goodbye to my group of friends on discord.

jingleballs3030 : alright, gotta go guys

Batman12 : G'night pal

FanOfDorothy : Good night be careful on your way out

jingleballs3030 : thanks, what's to be careful about?

jingleballs3030 : ah nvm you talking about my psychotic wife lmao

I let out a low chuckle as I clicked out of the channel discussion, not bothering to check the following message notifications.

"Guess it's another one of those nights," I said to no one, looking at my empty bed on the corner.

I reached my parameters and stared at my desktop, ready to shut down my computer when I thought back about a website an online acquaintance that I met on our discord group told me about.

'Was it incomingsuccubus.com or some shit like that?' I thought.

He suggested that I subscribe to that site after I told him about my relationship issues. He was a man in his thirties that always loved to talk about magic stuff. I'm not judging, really. That's what you get when you chat with depressive people and it's still warm company.

Anyway, the rule is to never click on any link. More often than not, it's the same motherfucker that changes names, keeps spamming screamers and somehow never gets banned.

I looked at the clock... Then decided to do it for the lulz. It couldn't hurt, after all. And if it was a screamer, who cares, I had set my volume at 0.

I went to search for the site on Google, but I found nothing. "Looks like the owner didn't do any referencing, what a professional," I said, forgetting that I was searching for a succubus site at 3 AM like some horny nerd - which I probably was, looking back - even though I would wake up early for work that day.

I entered the complete address in the search bar and a simplistic black and white design greeted me. The index page was void of information except for a poem. The title read:
"Your everlasting companion."

"Grim-faced, short and boorish man,
You wish for a faithful wife with a beautiful tan,
Tired of your old one, sleepy on the divan?
Worry not, Ann's got a plan."

Part 1/2

I couldn't help but lean closer to the text as I read it a second time. The amount of information I could relate to in this poem was mind-numbing. In fact, I was in the exact situation described. 'That's funny,' I thought. 'Nice-sounding poem, too.'

I let out a chuckle as I reread the first sentence a third time, "Grim-faced and boorish? Seriously? If I didn't already make fun of myself all the time, I'd find this offensive." I scrolled down and found a few categories, "Contact Us" and "User comments".

I moved the cursor down on "User comments" and clicked. The page took a little while to load, this time. Earlier, it only took a second to display the simplistic index page and I had expected the same for the whole site. I waited for a full ten second, watching nothing being loaded. After about twenty seconds, I got up to smoke a cigarette on the porch and went back.

Still loading.

'Welp, that's website optimization for you,' I thought. I had quite a few friends proficient in web-related languages, such as HTML and CSS, and they always cringed when a page took less than four seconds to load. Those guys would hate it.

Thinking of them made me wonder how that discord guy had found that website in the first place. 'What if he's the owner? Then, the highly-descriptive poem...' I slapped myself in realization, "Ah, fuck you, VerycoldIgloo2321. What a shitty joke."

I closed everything, sent an insult to that bastard on discord and went to bed, alone.

The same morning, I checked up on my wife in the living room. Usually, she would sleep until she heard me clapping the door, then she'd call the lover she's been cheating on me with so that she could have sex with him all day in our bed. Then she'd wash the sheets before I got home as if nothing happened.

She wasn't there so I checked in the bathroom where she wasn't either. I looked on the porch, in the garden and the cave. I couldn't find her.

After a while, I had eventually figured out that her clothes were still in the closet. I stopped searching for her and prepared for work.

She was just gone.

Part 2/2

>>16898384
>a website an online acquaintance [that i met on our discord group] told me about
Bit within [...] can be removed. You already mentioned about discord, and you are saying it's an online acquaintance, so there's no reason to crowd the sentence with that over-detailed description

>I moved the cursor down on "User comments" and clicked it
You can sum that up by simply saying "I clicked on 'User comments' ". Most people know how clicking works

>The page took a little while to load, this time.
Maybe it's me, but either you should drop the commas, or put it on the beginning ("This time, ..."). Also, the sentence after that one is really dull

>web-related languages, such as HTML and CSS
wut

So, sorry for the overly-detailed comments above, just felt like pointing it out. But overall, I feel like it ended prematurely - where the hell is the new wife? Also, the whole part about cheating felt too much "thrown out", and I would recommend bringing her up earlier on, as before that I thought the guy was some 20-something yo virgin, not a married cuck

That's what I could think of. I would read more if you post more, though

>>16898502
Thanks! You're actually being very helpful. I figured it out too for the "thrown-out part", I'll get rid of it. When I wrote I thought of keeping it "thrown-out" because I wanted to convey the feeling of the narrator thinking fast, but I'll prepare it, sure.

For the commas, I'll keep it in mind, didn't think it was going to be disturbing. I'll remove/change the parts you pointed out.
Nice comment. You rock.

How hard would it be to start your own publisher? Seeing as there are multiple publishers dedicated to twitter theorycels, I would assume it's pretty easy.

>>16898384
I don't like reading about other people using the internet. I also don't like your prose. I also don't like the subject of the story, which seems silly in a dumb way.
Sorry, anon. I don't like this at all.

>>16898451
>>16898441
You've gotta work on optimizing your prose. There are too many useless words floating around, ruining the pacing. As an example:
>After a while, I had eventually figured out
"After a while" and "eventually" mean exactly the same thing. Either one of them could be deleted and the sentence would still carry the same meaning.

>>16898554
I had a professor in college who had his own publishing house for his poetry and novellas. No clue how it works or how feasible it is, but it's apparently possible.

>>16898714

new thread

>>16894126
But my prose is really bad.

>>16898721
Anon, aren't you like, 200 posts too early?

>>16898737
Yes. Surprise.

>>16894865
Most children learn that you should never cede bullies any degree of control over your life, if you can help it. Most great books are/were seriously iconoclastic in some way or another, many were rejected by publishers for stupid reasons, many great authors were mocked, imprisoned, even tortured, and many faced censorship from petty bureaucrats, ideologues, etc. The censorship of art for stupid and evil reasons is a recurring theme in the history of literature. Liberal anti-white discrimination is a fleeting trend that will look extremely petty and backwards in 100 years, maybe far sooner than that, so write whatever you want, however you want, wherever you want, and don't let evil people ruin your life so that you can be the pawn of their backwards ideology.

>>16898843
>>16898721
I used to believe in you

Anyone get accepted to the Lit Quarterly?

>>16897227
It's just exhausting, every story I try to make, even if I try to keep it lighthearted eventually turns depressing and dehumanizing during plotting.

My story is the biggest flop in Royal Road history. Over 40 chapters, under 40 followers.

>>16899056
Did you remember to start your story with a lonely protagonist then introduce the obivous waifubait 2 chapters in and then have the character pick the most boring evolution paths possible?

>>16898937
Doubt that’s him. People have a vendetta or something against him on this site.
>>16898721
Post proof ur who you say you are.

>>16899056
At least you're #1 at something

Has anyone ever felt like they want to help people via their writing?

>>16899133
The Lord helps those who help themselves.
So, no.

>>16899162
nice b8

>>16899086
It’s the same asshole who’s been mass spamming negative reviews for his books.

>get notebook
>write handwritten draft of what I hoped to be my first novel
>tfw know it's underwritten like fuck, but also know what needs fleshing out and ways to improve the story and add length
>tfw type up the handwritten draft
>it's not even 9000 words, and it reads like shit
I'm currently having a crisis of faith and feel like I should just give up the whole writing thing. My shut in life style has made me completely incapable of writing "realism" and relationships believably(at least in my mind). This is why Lovecraft wrote what he did, I'm convinced. I currently hate everything and want to die so I don't have to live with how much of a fucking failure I am.

tl;dr I'm bitching like we all do in here. Nothing special. Move along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSS2IgnnBo8

>>16899302
forgot the part where I wonder if I should just give up long form writing and become a screenwriter.

>>16898973
if you haven't received any updates by now then you probably didn't make it. sorry, pal. just email him and he'll let you know.

>>16899302
Just write something simple that you can actually complete at first. Read writing books, see where the flow is blocked, rinse and repeat. Beginners game devs don't just go and develop 3A games, they all start small with 2D platformers, short 3D games on unity, etc.

And stop bitching, it's fucking annoying. You got tons of reference books in OP's post that you can use to improve the readability of anything you'll be writing from now on.

>>16899450
>actually complete
I've done that. I've written tons of short stories, which is why I wanted to finally tackle an idea I knew was bigger. Unironically, I think my problem is that idk IRL relationships, romantic or otherwise. So I guess my shitty writing is going to force me to at least attempt some level of normiedom

>>16899234
That actually makes sense. I remember an anon sperging out back when he was giving away copies of his book on here. A lot of people just don't like to see others succeed.

>>16894847
testtest

>write sfw fiction that clearly has a fetish fanbase
>make patreon and release nsfw scene exclusives
>????
>profit

So that's my game plan. Write a halfway decent episodic smut story but without the smut. Any scenes where smut would logically take place I'm fading to black in the public release, but will write-in for the exclusive patreon release.

I want just enough coomer bux to quit my job and I'll be happy. That's not even that much money considering I'm a low income wagie.

>>16899056
Share it I'll take a look.

>>16899485
If you did everything I told you to do then you're a decent writer already and no one should be cringing at your work. If IRL relationships are your problem, just read great dialogue books and get the pattern done... Stephen King comes to mind and is a good writer in that aspect.

It's stupid to limit yourself because you don't know enough. A lot of male writers wrote successful books with female main characters. Not being social doesn't mean you cannot write about people or complex romantic stories.

I'd even say that people are people. If you were to write about real people, half of their conversation would be meaningless shit. Just write the meaningful parts you know are necessary for your story and it'll go well.

>>16899056
Share it.

>>16899635
What's the fetish anon?

>>16899680
>If you were to write about real people, half of their conversation would be meaningless shit. Just write the meaningful parts you know are necessary for your story and it'll go well.
I agree with this. A lot of writing dialogue isn't knowing what to put in so much as what to leave out of a conversation.

>>16899989
Gender bender. Male to female transformation.

>>16899366
God fucking dammit
If I can't even make it in a publication like this I'll never make it anywhere
Painless ways to commit suicide?

>>16900821
Jeff Bezos has his own publication called Amazon KDP, maybe you could submit there :^)

>>16900876
If it isn't on paper and go through some kind of filtering process it isn't real. Pls tell how to an hero

>>16900885
I've looked through Submittable and a lot of the smaller publishers actually use Amazon's print on demand service and just put their name on it. You could do the same thing by
> buying a bunch of ISBNs from Bowker
> make up your own publishing house name
> link your ISBN to your house's name
> submit to KDP with your own ISBN
> wala, your book is """traditionally published"""

one indie fantasy publishing house didn't even buy their ISBNs off Bowker, all their books had the Amazon "independently published" mark on it

>>16898381
>I'm talking about people who sell, there are plenty of those who self-publish or run their biz on Amazon.
Yes, and the majority of them make fucking nothing, despite the relentless shilling. You just think they do, because they plug themselves everywhere. You think they're annoying? Well, guess what, so do most of the others.

>>16898384
The rest of it could be the most beautifully written solution to the meaning of life and I'd refuse to read it just because you opened with "and prepared to bid goodbye to my group of friends on discord" and then wrote out a chatlog.

>>16899056
Mate, I just saw a fiction with 26 chapters and 4 followers, I think you're doing pretty good.

>>16899302
>My shut in life style has made me completely incapable of writing "realism" and relationships believably(at least in my mind
So write about what you know.

My prose is utter shit but by sticking to writing autism, people think my dialogue is decent for some reason.

>>16893162
Does anyone have that infographic/chart which recommends 3 books on writing? I think it was titled the Trivium.
Most specifically, I'm looking for the rhetoric book that was part of that list.

Nevermind, I found it. I'll post this anyway to share.
Classic Rhetoric for the Modern Student - Corbett

>>16897376
I tried my best, mate, I tried my best to make something a little more active – to recompense for the work you have put into your last post.

Huang Xi cleaned his flat for several hours a day. At any given moment it was so clean that you could eat off the floor as if from a freshly washed plate. But since he only earned enough money to stock up on chemical detergents, but not enough for the protective gloves, his hands, which were immersed in the steaming detergent water several hundred times a day, had begun to peel off their bones.

When the pain became unbearable and Huang Xi had to stop cleaning temporarily, he called Doctor Zheng Shi's clinic to make an appointment.

"No, I can't give you an appointment until next week on Wednesday," said the woman's voice on the other end of the line. Then she said something incomprehensible to a person who seemed to be in the room with her and who gave a muffled laugh.

"Are you sure I can't come earlier? You see, this is an emergency, so to speak. I really must see the doctor today or tomorrow at the latest. My hands are falling off. I really need help". There was a long pause as Huang Xi waited and pressed his ear against the red plastic shell of the telephone, listening anxiously.

"That won't be possible, Mister Xi", a deep male voice suddenly said. Loud, immoral woman's laughter rose up and would not stop, and Huang Xi thought he heard the deep voice in the background, saying something to the woman, which doubled her screaming.

Translated.

>>16898929
>Liberal anti-white discrimination is a fleeting trend that will look extremely petty and backwards in 100 years
You're assuming that it will be white people who'll look back at this in 100 years.

>>16894361
>but I fail at this basic task of answering "why do it".
Because if you don't nobody else will. I wish somebody would write the things I want, because I am incapable of writing anything good. But nobody else has my specific taste or ideas.

This is what I do instead of laying in bed all day watching the boob tube.

>>16898572
>I don't like reading about other people using the internet.
This but I imagine that younger people will relate more than I do.
>>16898441
Is it really necessary to mention products like Discord? I think it's always a bit more elegant to go generic or use a fictitious program. Also I would avoid having people who talk in chatrooms actually talk in chat speak. It does look like shit if you say "nvm" and "lmao", you can go with "nevermind" and "hahaha" or something.
Either way you should be more synthetic and trim the fat, you do a lot of
>I let out a low chuckle
I chuckled
>I rubbed my tired eyes
I rubbed my eyes
And you could probably do even better by removing the cliché actions. Not a fan of the subject matter so there's that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBFWDeOGicM&t=3s

>>16901277
Keep going

>>16900821
if it's worth anything, i got a short story published by a small journal but another piece didn't get into lit quarterly. hang in there, bro.

>>16901271
sounds surreal. i can dig it. your previous piece, too.

>>16901271
poor Huang. I feel bad for him

>>16899302
>it's not even 9000 words, and it reads like shit
Dude, ALL first drafts will read like shit. Having it written down is actually a great first step, so you are definitely on the right path

>>16898546
Np m8. Also remember do not take guys like >>16898572 too seriously. A lot of people here will try to bash everything you show disguised as "constructive criticism".

>I don't like reading about other people using the internet
That's utterly a personal preference. Personal preference is NOT feedback (at most, it is a warning like "read the rest of my feedback taking in consideration i'm not your target audience")

>>16901277
Seems OK, but from that small snippet I have 0 context and 0 interest on keep reading. Also, if the flowers are not meant to keep vampires away, I'm getting totally the wrong vibe

>>16901547
>Personal preference is NOT feedback
Jesus, what a shit take. The only feedback you can possibly give is an expression of your personal preference. No matter how objectively you try to word it, it's always just some variation of "i like this part" and "i don't like this part."
And ex-cuuse me for being honest with the poor bastard. It's not like I told him he'll never amount to shit, something very often said in these threads. I just let him know he's got some improving to do. I hate how pussified creatives have become that someone's honest negative opinions are thought of as "trying to bash everything." If you can't handle people on an anonymous imageboard saying bad things about your work, how do you expect to stand up against seasoned literary critics? If they don't like your stuff, they sure as hell won't care to make their criticisms sound polite.

>>16896757

the amount of people who write about their personal expereince of anxiety makes another rendition of it seem extremely unattractive. I only read the first sentences and just quit. If you had experienced something maybe you could be a writer but if you're gonna write about being a NEET... i'm sorry but no one cares.

>>16901813
it's not about me though and it's not from personal experience. I guess the Rollenprosa was convincing then :3

I need to learn how to describe things.

>>16901799
seasoned literary critics will actually provide arguments and analysis though.

>>16901849
Not him and I'm no literary critic but the more focused your narrative is about a currently developing cultural phenomenon the more likely it is that not only it will age like milk, but also that it will fail to speak to anybody but the people who participate to that specific cultural phenomenon at the time your narrative was written. Of course if I made a novel about 4channers where every paragraph is a reference to a meme, nobody outside of this culture would get it. This is all the more evident when focusing on a cultural phenomenon instead of using something broader is not necessary to deliver the narrative. Specificity is not just a detail. If I say that a character pulls out his phone, it's not the same thing as saying he pulls out his Samsung Galaxy S7. Not only I'm advertising a product, I'm also filtering all the people who would feel alienated because they cannot imagine a Samsung Galaxy S7 without looking it up. Is it important that I am mentioning exactly what phone? Does this show that the character is rich or poor, or something like that?
Just dumping internet life shit because it's exactly what other teenagers do and not because you have a real narrative about it comes off as really cheap and alienating to anybody who doesn't belong to that demographic. It's not hard to figure out what anon meant when he said "I don't like reading about people using the internet".

>>16901849
>seasoned literary critics will actually provide arguments and analysis
Good luck finding those in these parts. Their arguments are elaborated preferences – which is fine.

>>16899302
>be me in middle school
>write out novel
>super proud, let friends read it
>get permission to use computers at school to type it out
>diligently teach self how to type and work on it every day after school
>ends up being 18k words
>research standard novel length
>60-90k
>heart cleaved in two
That was over over 9000 years ago. My books now are usually the proper length because I've been practicing ever since and understand how pacing works. I was also a NEET for five years after college and I believe it was the biggest help because it allows you to see things more objectively than the average person. Just keep writing. As long as you are trying to actively improve, you will get better. The only people who don't improve are the ones who don't care to or don't think they need to.
For example: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11688251/1/Smash-Life this guy who has three million words of smash bros fanfiction and has not improved. That's because he is entirely focused on the story and pandering to the fans reading it. He doesn't care about his writing style or quality as long as it's telling the story. If his goal had been writing publishable works and he cared about emulating better writers, after three million words he would be a very good writer. Keep writing. By a quarter million words you will probably be way better than this guy (if you aren't already) simply because you are capable of critiquing yourself.
Also, every first draft is shit. Even your favorite book had a shitty first draft that had loose ends and weird red herrings without follow-ups and extra scenes or important scenes that just weren't there, etc. Editing is as much a part of the process as getting the words down is. Keep at it. It's a learning process, but it can be more fun and rewarding than plenty of other hobbies.

>>16901964
So you wrote a novella, what's wrong with that?

>>16901844
No, you need to practice describing things. If you look at an object, I'm assuming you're capable of identifying it as a chair, and attributing to it the color red, provided you're looking at a red chair. You already know how to describe things, but a big part of description is also in observation. Maybe "chair that is red" is the greatest precision with which you interact with objects in your daily life, but you can practice observing things more closely. So you've got a red chair in front of you. What else? Is it wooden? Plush? Describe the pattern of grain in the wood chair, or the fabric of the chair. What makes that chair interesting? Crucially, how does it relate with its environment, both the environment of things and the environment of people.
>the chair's red cushion still bears the shape of my grandfather
That's not exactly the height of prose, but consider that it describes a chair and imparts some degree of greater meaning and why the narrator cares about the chair. It also implies his grandfather is dead. All this with a simple description.

>>16901981
I had thought it was a novel and had no idea what a novella was.
Imagining writing something four times as long seemed impossible as my 13 year old self had struggled just writing that 18k.

>>16901990
>the chair's red cushion still bears the shape of my grandfather
>That's not exactly the height of prose
Why not?

>>16901964
This is what I used to believe as a retarded kid.
>if it isn't a gigantic book it's not good enough!!!
So I'd try to pad my stories with boring parts to make them longer and got bored of writing them.
Mind you they never were good anyway because I was a retarded kid, but regardless length has absolutely no importance.

>>16899302
You can easily write good short books (EG: men and mice)
Write more short stuff and take your time to edit them, making sure they at least read well and there's no mistakes (grammatical or plot holes).
Focus on "high concept" stories so you don't have to worry with twists or super complex characters and what not; instead focus on pacing until you're satisfied with the result.
And hey if you're a total shut in you can still show your stuff to your parents and get some feedback and encouragement.

>>16896957
>not suffering/enjoying congenital hypergraphia
Your aptitude is for marketing.

>>16898721
I know your not him
post face

>>16902034
I can only speak for myself, but I guess what I meant is really that it doesn't meet my standard for lyricism/flow/whatever. That's all I meant by it.

>>16902034
it's really goofy, I imagined cartoony asscheek shaped grooves in the cushion

Seriously, how do I get my poetry out into the world?

>>16902119
Yeah that too. I almost wrote "my grandfather's ass" because it was a natural extension. I couldn't find a way to gracefully weave all the elements I was trying to demonstrate together so I just attached the disclaimer. To avoid the grandpa's ass conundrum, I considered dimpling the chair's arms but it just came out very obtuse.

>>16901849
But they aren't nice about it.

I know no one will understand where I'm coming from, but I really wish I had someone I could write books with, someone who isn't lazy and isn't looking to just take credit for minimal work, but someone I could spend all day together brainstorming with ideas and collaborating. It would make writing more fun but also allow someone to fix any issues I have with my story and make it where I stop getting blocked for weeks on my writing. I have wrote 4 visual novels and I'm not happy with any of them. I hate how I can't get any fucking feedback till after the story is fully written. Sometimes I will want to know simple stuff like "does this sound like an interesting character", I don't want to wait till after I finished my game to find out that the character is annoying.

>>16902215
At the heart of every literary critic is an author. It's just that most of them are failed authors. They've got nothing to be nice about.

>>16902241
Maybe you could get an artistic or literary girlfriend. There's another anon in this thread who has a gf that actively edits his work. Richard Dawkins's previous wife also had a similar role in a couple of his books.

>>16902248
how do I get one

>>16902255
Just bee yourself!

>>16902255
If I knew, I wouldn't be here. The moment I get a gf, I'm leaving 4chan forever. Going to be too busy having sex and shit

>>16902274
This is why I have trouble believing that anyone on 4chan has an active sex life, especially the LARPers who say they have children, a six figure job AND an active sex life. Like for fuck sake, why would you be on 4chan having conversations with incels of all places if you could be smashing pussy or doing something productive. The LARP really ruins this board.

>>16902241
>anime
this is why nobody likes you

>>16902284
I'm pretty sure I posted here while I had a gf at one time, eons ago. I simply wanted to talk about subjects I couldn't talk about with the people I knew IRL.

>>16902301
Now that I think of it no, it happened after I broke up. I haven't had sex since I joined this site.

>>16902284
To be fair even if I was having sex regularly this site would still be the only place where I could engage with my spiritual peers

>>16902284

the pattern goes like this
>get gf
>have a lot of sex
>quit 4chan
>sex diminishes
>almost no sex
>go back to 4chan

>>16902324
are you saying that quitting 4chan is what leads to loss of sex?

>>16902284
It's not like this site gets any less interesting or entrancing when you occasionally sleep with people. Whatever ideal you are envisioning, it contains plenty of downtime, and that downtime can either be filled by doing something productive (which is unlikely, seeing as you already visit this site) or it can be spent pointlessly browsing the internet (aka this site). There is nothing exclusive about any of the activities you mentioned. You don't suddenly stop being a weird unsociable human when you get a girlfriend or a job, you just get better at hiding it. If anything, having kids made me go on this site more because I was always exhausted and whenever I found five minutes free and I didn't feel like closing my eyes, I'd grab my phone and end up here. Also remember that people who make tons of money usually have way more free time than those who make minimum wage, so, if they were coming here already, they'd arguably be more likely to end up here as well.

>>16902311
You wouldn't be among spiritual peers anymore.

>>16902358
That's not true, at least in my case. When I had a girlfriend, I never had the time or inclination to come here. I rarely even looked at normies forums like Reddit. I mostly stuck to the default homepages like Yahoo or maybe watched trending videos on YouTube

> You don't suddenly stop being a weird unsociable human when you get a girlfriend or a job
I remember I was much more of a normie, or at least I was forced to be a normies and spend time doing things like going on dates, dinner parties, festivals, restaurants, etc

>>16902284

Literally imagine your Dad spending all waking hours on the computer talking to people on a chinese cartoon forum instead of playing catch with you or going out to eat with the family. Anyone who says they have children & make six figures here is a troll.

>>16902358
>phone starer

You're just a mindless drone.

>>16902434

>> Implying we all want pleb background stories for our children

>>16902475
Instead you get the nigger background story where the dad never talks to the kid.

>>16902480

With the void to fill that comes with it, increasing the chance of becoming an interesting and capable individual not relying on the approval of retards on a honolulian palm leaf weaving forum

>>16902358
>It's not like this site gets any less interesting or entrancing when you occasionally sleep with people.
Yeah, because it's simply not possible to get any less interesting or "entrancing" lmao. When I actually had a job and real things to do, I didn't spend one minute in this shit hole

>>16902434
>Literally imagine your Dad spending all waking hours on the computer talking to people on a chinese cartoon forum
Makes no difference to the kid if it's that or answering e-mails and other job shit.

>>16902491
You just called vast majority of black people interesting and capable individuals

>>16902498
>> Increasing the chance

It's a dice toss, not my fault the dices are rigged

>>16902514
If this was true then that means on average black people are more interesting and capable than white people. Since vast majority are neglected.

>>16902535
Ofc not. They're surrounded by niggers. You can't escape the nigger vortex. Were only in this nigger domain cus you likened absent parenting with nigger parenting. It only applies to whiteys

>>16902546
>the nigger vortex
In a world where people are less easily offended, this is the name of a successful book.

>>16902495
Why are you here now if it's not interesting?

>>16902561
Because I can't leave

>>16902573
because it's entrancing you faggot, there is nowhere else like it

>>16902598
If you have to spend your free moments either sitting on a piss-ant hill or being boiled in a cauldron of fat, me diving into the ant hill doesn't mean it's somehow an entracing experience. It just means there's no real choice.

Today’s a shit day. I’ll be in and out I suppose. You got questions, I got answers yadda yadda. Worked in the industry, etc etc.

I have the biggest dick in the industry AMA

>>16902884
How do you approach potential publishers without scaring them off by being a sperg?

>>16902909
Learn to socialize I guess?

In all honesty though if you are trying to approach publishers, getting an agent is pretty helpful. When looking for an agent the general rule of thumb is to find someone as excited about your work as you. You want them in your corner, rather than just treating you like a client. So shop around and don’t be afraid to say no.

>>16902884
is this guy >>16902908 lying?

>>16902929
What does one need to have already done for an agent to bother with you?

>>16902929
>find someone as excited about your work as you.
I despise my work on pure principal so this seems like bad advice for me

>>16902943
You’d need a manuscript to publish at the very least. Something that is done and has been edited. If they believe in the manuscript then you’re all set to go.

That being said of course, being published elsewhere is always a big plus. (Wether it’s short stories, poetry, to actual large novels etc). On top of that a following is good too. So having a writer twitter or an Instagram is also an advantage. (Also take note, while followers are important, generally being a part of the community is a better place to start than just buying sub bots etc.)

Finally referrals/knowing people in the industry help as well, but isn’t make or break.

>>16902063
This. Gardner's a namefag. >>16898721
I don't know what your beef is with him but your clearly trying to ruin his reputation on this board. Your attempt has been thwarted and your thread is dead. No one here is believing your bullshit.

>>16893884
its not that bad. its kind of stupid, but if the narrator is supposed to come off that way then it could work as a comedy.

>>16902953
Fair enough. In that case look for someone who genuinely likes your work.

As a side note, why do you hate your work so much?

>>16902969
>how do I get published
>get an agent
>how do I get an agent
>be published somewhere else bro
Kafkaesque

>>16902987
That’s just life, isn’t it anon?

But as I said it helps, but it isn’t essential. And by being published elsewhere, that can be as large as getting a novel out, which does lead to the cycle you are talking about. But often smaller publishing is all that is needed. Find a small set of magazines/presses and try to get a small short story published. Or a piece of poetry. Doesn’t really matter. Once you have a small start, that’s what you can use to get the ball rolling.

It’s something a lot of people don’t think of/know about. While working on your big projects, take breaks to write some small ones and see if they can get published elsewhere. If they do, congrats you are now officially published and have broken the cycle. If not, don’t sweat it so hard.

>>16903023
>Find a small set of magazines/presses and try to get a small short story published
I have no idea how to even start looking for something like this since I don't read any...

>>16902248
Being so-called artistic or literary does not at all qualify someone to be an editor. They can find typos and point out things they personally didn't like. That's it. It should be someone you have nothing but a professional relationship with.

>>16902284
Some of us pop in for a few minutes during lunch. It doesn't have to be an all-day time sink.

>>16898208
just try it and you'll see if its good practice or not

>>16903033
Then now is the time to start looking.

The easiest way to start is by looking near your region. Literally google “Town/city/state magazine/publisher/press.” You’ll more than likely find something small and local. Once you’ve found one, it’s usually easy to find others. Just go onto their twitter or Instagram and see who they reblog/retweet. Usually it’s other small presses/publishers, which you can now look into yourself. And of course their twitters will be filled with publishers who they reblog/retweet. Pick and choose who you will try and get published with/who’s best suited for your work and then go from there.

I’m also not sure, but here in Canada we have some sites where we get industry news from. These sites are are also good for finding publishers, but I don’t know if there is an American equivalent.

>>16902978
I made it, and I'm a pathetic moron. So all my work is the work of a pathetic moron.

>>16903088
Well I'm European anyway

>>16902884
Question: How do you know if a book is good to bother trying to get it published? How do you show it to people without getting it stolen?

>>16903106
I think the problem runs deeper than the writing then, and getting to the heart of that problem is probably the best way to fix the issue.

That being said, focus down small then. And I mean small. Get a small short story, or a handful, and focus on small press publishing. It takes time and there will be rejection letters. Take it in stride. Remember to edit your work. But at some point, if you keep chipping at it and keep improving, you will get published. Once you do take solice in that. Someone, somewhere, liked your work. They liked it enough to fight for it to eat published. They believed in it. They believe in its quality. And they wouldn’t have done that if it was written by a pathetic moron who didn’t know what he was doing.

Focus on that once you get published. Really hone in on that feeling. Then do it again, and again. Don’t get a massive ego, but get a little bit of one. It should hopefully help you to understand that your work, and you as a person, are more than just the scribblings of a pathetic moron.

>>16903116
Same still applies. Just replace state with whatever the European equivalent is.

>>16903143
Make them read it, get their opinion and then kill them.

>>16903143
>How do you know if a book is good to bother trying to get it published?
Tough question. It’s usually you who has to decide that however. First it has to be all finished, then edited AT LEAST once. If you feel confident enough in the work that you have produced, then try to get it published. Make sure to take criticism as it comes and decide if it’s something you want to act on. If so, keep your earlier draft by create a new one based off of criticism. Start the process again. And if sharing the book with someone else to edit helps, then do that if it helps your confidence. (Though professional opinion will always be better than layman. And keep in mind everyone has an opinion on things.)

All this being said, breaking down a good editing process might help as well. Once the work is finished you’d start substantively. Go over the work and view it through narrative and character. Are you okay with the events as they have gone? Do you feel like a section bogged down somewhere, or does it need more explaining? Are you chapters too short, or do they end appropriately? Does your character stay in line with who they are? Focus on the big structural parts of the story.

Once you are happy there, go stylistic. Paragraph by paragraph. Do you say things in the way you want to? Are your choices of phrases acceptable to you? Is your style of long, or short, paragraphs useful in this section? Does it speak; You. Etc etc.

Then once you are happy there, go copy editing. Look for spelling mistakes and grammar errors. This is the final step of the process.

Once you get to the end, you’ll either be sick of looking at it, or satisfied enough to publish it. Either way you should be good to go.

>How do you show it to people without getting it stolen?
I’ve never actually thought about this before. Mostly, I think, because I’ve never had to consider it. I work with others like me and I work with people whom I trust. So I don’t really worry about it too much. So start there. Only share things with people whom you trust and who you know aren’t going to steal the work. That means probably not posting it here in all honesty.

Secondly keep records of everything. You send work to someone, jot it down. Keep the emails, etc etc. When you write, have multiple drafts. Don’t just keep saving your edits or changes over and over in one document. Copy the damned thing and make changes there. That way you have a record of progress.

If you only give it to people who you trust, you should be fine. But if they betray that trust, then having a paper trail will help you prove they stole it/it was your own work.

This is a story called Mason. In it a tribal man living in what is basically a mudhut hires a mason to build him an oven.
Please teach me how to improve.

https://pastebin.com/BPgMQXba

>>16898572
Sure, anon, there's no man that can please everyone.
>>16901547
Mah, don't worry anon, it's fine.
>>16898639
>>16901333
>>16901000
Thanks! You guys got a point. I went for a fictional chatroom and removed the tidbits that went against the flow. For the chatroom dialect, I'm going to fix this.
Next time I'll double-check for prose with reference books and edit the stuff more thoroughly before asking for /crit/, I'm a bit ashamed most of the stuff pointed out were parts of the prose, but hey, gotta live and learn.

>>16894140
okra? or various peppers used in west african pepper stews

How do you go about structured writing practice to improve technique, as you would with any other discipline like drawing?

>someone comes up with a fantheory that's better than anything I would've written
>I end up stealing their idea for the next book
>they're excited that they "predicted" it was going to happen

I want to write a fantasy novel. My head is full of ideas but no thread to tie any of these ideas into a cohesive whole. If I succeed in the writing of this novel that only exists on a theoretical level I will die content.

>writing a book in the present tense
y/n?

>>16903454
why would you ask other people if you should do this? Don't you read books, can't you figure this out on your own whether it can work or not?

>>16903502
geez, pardon me

>>16903510
Next you're going to ask what genre you should write. Or if your protagonist should be a male or a female.

>>16903454
I think it works well for comedy, but mostly it's cringe

>>16903530
I prefer writing about cute girls

>>16902550
Everyone stops. This man is going to make it.

>>16903443
I wish this happened to me. I hate it when people try to predict what happens in a story and it's so dumb, I'm like, do they actually think I'm that cheap?

>>16902550
Someone tell me what a nigger vortex could be and I will write a novella about one.

I'm going to start practicing cursive handwriting so my writing isn't so slow and uncomfortable

and it'll look nice

>>16904592
Maybe you are left handed. It's a possibility.

>>16904733
I broke my right arm when I was a child and I'm pretty confident in saying I am not a leftie going by my writing those couple of months

>>16902972
Anybody know who this is about?

Your book does have black people, right anon?

>>16904870
well, humanoids with black skin

>>16904870
every time I write a story set in the future I try to come up with reasonable excuses as to why black people have gone extinct

>>16904870
I don't mention skin color ever, so they can be whatever the reader wants them to be.

>>16904870
As villains, yes