/lit/ - Literature

>>16880194
Reminder that Marx didn't believe in the labor theory of value, rendering this common criticism of him irrelevant.

>>16880194
Correct. I still read Marx and Lenin fairly often, though - they're really good writers and are good at banter. Lenin BTFO'd Kautsky so fucking hard that it's just impossible not to enjoy it.

>>16880204
Dialectical materialism is not real. It is false, it is a false analysis of the world and it is not scientific.
Without it, you do not have Marxism nor Communism.

>>16880236
Philosophy is subjective, there is no universal truth. Your argument is a spook

>>16880648
How old are you? I don't believe you're older than 14

>>16880648
Cope and wrong

Reminder that none of the left-wing people you're angry at have ever read Marx and will never in a million years bother with "Marxian economics" or even trying to understand what dialectics is because they're too busy being normal and having a life. For them, Marx and Communism are just abstractions, cultural tokens that stand broadly for "equality" and "opposition to the status quo", meant only to be emptied, appropriated and given new meaning.

People's political lexicon and collective pool of references are so limited that they can't move slightly to the left or right of the mainstream political parties without immediately resorting to labels they heard in history class, but that doesn't mean they're serious about any of that or that they're actually going to start reading books and rationally forge a political agenda out of that. You worrying about all that nonsense as if ideas are a matter of linear genealogical evolution and you're just about to destroy the foundations of leftism like that would make the average Twitter leftist wake up tomorrow and decide he's no longer going to cancel people or vote for AOC because his worldview was debunked is ludicrous, get your shit together

>>16880194
Dialectical Materialism is correct and everything in the universe that is observable proves it.

>>16881023
Cope and wrong on all counts. There is nothing in the universe that serves as evidence for it.

>>16881030
Literally everything does. Even the fucking big bang.

>>16881077
>This is what Marxists actually believe
Bit sad really.

>>16880984
This guy gets it

>>16881077
You either don't understand Dialectical Materialism or physics.

>>16881077

L M A O


Can we add Marx to pic related please?

>>16880194
Can you spambot retards fuck off now

>>16881023
>he took engels drivel seriously

>>16880194
> "at its not infrequent worst"
Nice

>>16881115
>>16881140
>>16881149
>>16881155
There is no evidence of metaphysics or dualism anywhere. Even the fucking laws of physics can change, as false vacuum proves.

>>16881182
"Every scientific man in order to preserve his reputation has to say he dislikes metaphysics. What he means is he dislikes having his metaphysics criticized." - Alfred North Whitehead

>>16881216
Dialectical Materialism isn't metaphysics, dialectical materialism is the opposite of metaphysics.

don't care still a communist

>>16880984
>because they're too busy being normal and having a life.
>leftoids
>normal life
Yeah sure bro, if you consider overdosing on anxiety medication to be "normal".

>>16881232
Dialectical materialism is incorrect. Engels' Dialectics of Nature is an embarrassment. Explain what you think dialectical materialism is. What does it show us about the world?
>>16881235
Statistically speaking you'll probably grow out of it when you get older.

>>16881241
lol most slightly political people are leftoid-liberal, obvs actual communists are a rarer breed but i feel like the BLM-Biden types are super common and generally normal/average

>>16881247
Dialectical Materialism in a line is the unity and interpenetration of opposites, with a materialist world-outlook.

>>16880984
Based.
The democrat and Republican Party are the same on economics, one offering reform and one offering libertarianism. They both agree on corporate capitalism and retaining the strongest sectors of the stock market. They mainly differ on cultural rightism and leftism, but will both fuck you on wages, healthcare, rent, and destroying unions.

>>16881232
You missed the point of the quote. You claim to have no need for metaphysics because of dialectical materialism, even though materialism is itself a metaphysical position.

>>16881276
>unity and interpenetration of opposites, with a materialist world-outlook.
That sounds closer to mysticism than anything scientific. Do you think physicists are studying 'opposites'?
>World-outlook
Aka a speculative metaphysical position.

>>16881261
>i feel like the BLM-Biden types are super common and generally normal/average
They are not really common, they just get tons of publicity. If it makes you feel better, I know about a dozen of those people and literally all of them are at least two of the following:
- Mentally ill (anxiety disorders, autism, panic attacks etc)
- Perpetually depressed
- On drugs
- Queers
The compassionate liberal NPC types are another story, though there is some intersection particularly with millennials.

WOW you convinced me OP!!!!! Thanks for the quality thread. Fuck marx. Im glad the CIA has spent trillions of taxpayers money subverting class consciousness

>>16881283
Materialism is the position material is *primary*, it doesn't the existence of ideas, it says they follow material first. This is a dialectical outlook, not a metaphysical one.

>>16881301
Yeah it sounds mystical because you don't know what it means. It means all change is mediated by the conflict of opposites, things that are mutually exclusive with each other.

>Aka a speculative metaphysical position.
Its not a metaphysical position.

>>16881320
>class consciousness
A meme. People side with nation / race over class 99 times out of 100. If Marx was right we would be living in communism right now.

>>16881312
>>i feel like the BLM-Biden types are super common and generally normal/average
>They are not really common, they just get tons of publicity. If it makes you feel better, I know about a dozen of those people and literally all of them are at least two of the following:
>- Mentally ill (anxiety disorders, autism, panic attacks etc)
>- Perpetually depressed
>- On drugs
>- Queers
>The compassionate liberal NPC types are another story, though there is some intersection particularly with millennials.

Huh, I guess I mean the NPC type (though I imagine they'd express mild-moderate support for BLM, despite never getting involved). People who get really into it though, for sure, kinda kooky. I think that's something that crops up among all true believers tho

>>16880204
>Marx didn't believe in LTV
What the ever loving fuck is SNLT you fucking faggot. Marx's ENTIRE idea of "exploitation" is fundamentally built on LTV. I'm guessing you haven't actually read Marx, just some gay furry porn artist on twitter who tweets about BLM? Get off this board retard

>>16881329
Explain why the CIA has spent trillions of dollars subverting marx. Explain why internationalist bankers conceptualized racial and gender issues as a way of subverting class consciousness as early as 1913.

I don't want to hear your pathological reaction to marx or your delusions as an answer, I want proof, a coherent and logical argumentation.

>>16881323
>It means all change is mediated by the conflict of opposites, things that are mutually exclusive with each other.
This is just Daoism. Also you're repeatedly claiming not to be doing metaphysics while also claiming to know the underlying structure of how all change in the universe operates. You need to read more. Read The Main Currents of Marxism by Leszek Kołakowski.

>>16881329

Yeah this is a hard truth communists have to confront. Class consciousness only seems to arise in certain conditions, and even then only for a moment. Stars have to align for people to break out of their default settings, ie. country good

>>16881329
>People side with nation / race over class 99 times out of 100.
Yea, because they don't understand the concept of class. Why do you think countries always mock mutts for being so stupid?

>>16881301
>Do you think physicists are studying 'opposites'

>>16881369
What's your point? That it must be true if the CIA have tried to repress it?

>>16881381

but if class consciousness is basically impossible to acquire how do you go -> revolution

>>16881381
>because they don't understand the concept of class
No it's because they have a stronger identity with nationality in every instance, even in countries that had communist revolutions. You just don't want to accept that fact.

>>16881407
You don't. I never implied that a revolution was possible. In fact I'd even go as far to say that a revolution would never happen in the US given the neoliberal stronghold the cultural left neoliberals (democrats) and the cultural right neoliberals (republicans) have and the ease of getting this information as opposed to a century ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_situation

>>16881407
You don't accept in the fantasies of leftist students.

>>16881372
Its not "just" Doaism, but yeah, this conflict between dialectical and metaphysical ideas has been going on in every culture for a long time.

>you're repeatedly claiming not to be doing metaphysics while also claiming to know the underlying structure of how all change in the universe operates
That's not metaphysics. Dialectal Materialism is a world-outlook. Its not claiming to know everything about the universe and how it works anymore than scientific analysis does.

>>16881439
everyone just needs to realize that the suffering will never end, the world will always be terrible for 99% of people living on it and our own ignorance is what will eventually doom us all

>>16881402
what part of my post did you not understand? I asked for logical argumentation, not sophistry.

Explain why the CIA has spent trillions of dollars subverting marx. Explain why internationalist bankers conceptualized racial and gender issues as a way of subverting class consciousness as early as 1913.

>>16881329
People do loosely identify with class and you can see it in the contempt a lot of working class whites have for upper class liberals but people's immediate experience doesn't give them a highly articulated concept of society or class. If the people you're working with at a menial job know that you're rich for example there's going to be resentment there and they do recognize that you've essentially been spoon-fed for most of your life but that doesn't mean that they have coherently anti-capitalist politics

>>16881346
It's not even a true believer issue, DSA/chapocel types are exactly like this - obese NEETs coked up on anti-anxiety medication. You can get a lot more woke than chapo of course, but those people are on even more drugs.
The NPC types are harder to talk about, since there's so many of them that are shockingly aggressive in America.

>>16881182
That has nothing to do with Dialectical Materialism you fucking idiot.

>>16881454
>the world will always be terrible for 99% of people living on it
Yep. But as a leftist I realized that there will always be people like >>16881441 this who couldn't grapple the concepts even if they wanted to.

It's better to just use your knowledge of capitalism to become a better capitalist and better the lives of the people around you through the exploitation of the knowledge you have. I've gotten into stock options and economics and it's surprisingly easy.

It's better to be a rich capitalist and exploit the ignorance of the culturally right/left leaning neoliberals that are the democrats and republicans to even the apolitical normies than to try and convince them to give a shit that their system is corrupt.

>>16881182
Wrong.
QFT is inherently Platonic and not Materialist.

>>16881470
>>16881470
>Explain why the CIA has spent trillions of dollars subverting marx.
I imagine from the CIA's point of view Marxism is a dangerous ideology that has gotten many people killed, political freedoms restricted and caused economic disasters.
>Explain why internationalist bankers conceptualized racial and gender issues as a way of subverting class consciousness
This is almost conspiratorial. You're talking as though the upper classes and CIA read Marx, agreed with him and then decided it would be in their own interest to subvert Marxism as opposed to them seeing Marxism as a dangerous ideology that would be a security threat to the US.

I have never heard a coherent compelling argument against the labor theory of value. Every time someone says it's wrong and should be dismissed, which is very often, it inevitably turns out they don't understand it. Usually the mudpie argument is employed. Every single time.

Anyone got a link to an actual honest and good argument against it?

>>16881470
Political movements created outside of the government agencies are hard to control and an actual threat to the established order.
There's been effort over decades to swing it in their direction.

>>16881487
You are not the rational, free thinking individual you think you are. You've bought into centuries old economic, philosophical and political theories and decided it is the truth like a cult member.

>>16881538
What about the transformation problem? How come Marxism economists still feel the need to explain it and have different opinions on it? Why is there no clear solution for a Marxian economic analysis?

>>16881548
Alright, show me the truth then, wageslave.

>>16881543
>Political movements created outside of the government agencies are hard to control and an actual threat to the established order.
>There's been effort over decades to swing it in their direction.
So this is an admission that Marxism and class consciousness are a threat to the established order. Thank you.

>>16881538
If you can prove the labor theory of value is not retarded, you should do a Phd about it because it would be news to most economics departments...

>>16881563
Do you think Marxism is the truth?

>>16881571
That being the case doesn't make it automatically true you fucking retard. Isis would be a threat if they started gaining influence in the US, does that make them correct?

>>16881571
That was my first post itt I was just adding to the point I thought you were trying to make

>>16881571
I should've said Marx because marxism is a pathetic attempt at disarming the revolutionary potential of early marx. Every single marxist intellectual is an asset of capital, every single "communist" leader is a state capitalist.

>>16881538
Oh, you haven't?

>>16881577
What? That's like asking if stoicism is "the truth." It's an economic philosophy.

If you're asking what economic framework I'd prefer to live in, there are already existing examples of social democracies. A crony capitalistic economic framework within a democratic republic and representatives that don't even represent the people is a dogshit system.

>>16881571
>So this is an admission that Marxism and class consciousness are a threat to the established order.

So is the rise of the alt-right and islamic extremism. Being a "threat to the established order" doesn't make it good, if anything it would be the opposite.

>>16881557
>What about the transformation problem?
I don't have enough background knowledge in the subjects involved and probably intelligence to understand it.

>How come Marxism economists still feel the need to explain it and have different opinions on it?
I don't know? Can't say I care or see why I should.

>Why is there no clear solution for a Marxian economic analysis?
I don't know what you mean by this. To the transformation problem or in general? If the latter, I don't know if that's true but if it is perfect should not be the enemy of good. Just because something doesn't explain everything everywhere completely and perfectly does not mean there is nothing of value in it.

>>16881582
Terrorism doesn't exist. ISIS cannot be a threat to the US since they are funded by the US.

Terrorism doesn't exist, it has never existed, and never will. If an act of terrorism leads to societal change then it is manufactured.

>>16881592
An economic philosophy not taken seriously by 99% of economists, isn't that interesting? Must be the CIA brainwashing people, right comrade? You're a cocky student who thinks he knows it all going through a Marxist phase. Why don't you actually read down philosophers who challenge your beliefs? Isaiah Berlin, Leszek Kołakowski? Marxism is dead for a reason. But in the mean time, fuck off back to leftypol.

>>16880984
So you agree? Most leftists are just progressive liberals that serve the interests of neoliberalism and LARP to attach themselves to a fake commodified revolutionary aesthetic?

>>16881593
These are no threat to the system, there are just manifestation of capital's inherent contradictions. Read Debord and Kaczynski.

>>16880204
Yeah but that is how he performed his analysis of capitalism. Have you read capital?

>>16881617
>cocky student
I literally just showed you my portfolio here >>16881487

Your reply doesn't refute shit btw, and I have read some of their works actually lmao. Why don't you actually read some leftist material so you can actually argue my points like I'm doing yours? You retarded wageslaves never fail to make me laugh.

>>16881444
Do you know what metaphysics is?

>>16881575
I mean, orthodox economics has obviously political motivations and biases. It justifies the rulers of the world and tells the masses they should just accept their place. And the empirical record of orthodox economics is a joke.

But the idea, beyond some technical Marxian LTV, of a labor producing value is pretty obvious and simple. Imagine you're on a desert island. Now produce something of value. How.... ? Or simply trace the production process of a commodity to its seed and see the common factor in all of them (hint: it's labor).

>>16881591
His arguments, as I know them, are laughable. But at least he tries. "lol what if poors are just lazy assholes that choose to not have value out of time preference" Whole lot of moralism and language of deserve" there. Which is no serious scientific explanation of reality. I'm no philosopher, but I think that's a severe is/ought distinction failure.

>>16881301
>Do you think physicists are studying 'opposites'?
Well all measures are built on 'opposites' so that's a pretty stupid argument.

>>16881617
Economy is false consciousness.

>Must be the CIA brainwashing people, right comrade?
Yes. But you think the CIA is an archaic political institution that exerts its power directly, so obviously the CIA cannot brainwash all of us if it worked this way. The CIA doesn't even understand what it's doing. Nobody in the CIA has a full picture of what they're doing. CIA is a cybernetic entity. Read up on project manhattan and realize that every institution is ran this way in 2020.

Imagine thinking we're still living in a pre-WW2 society in which political power operates from the top down lol. As if the "elites" had any power. They don't. We're under real subsumption, the market dictates our every movement. COVID isn't a fucking pandemic too, but there is no conspiracy. As if the murder of Ferdinand lead to WW1 lol. As if some weak virus plunged the world into adopting lockdowns lol.

>>16881364
exploitiation makes no sense once marx makes the distinction of labour power and labour.

>>16881646
>>16881646
You haven't made any points. What points have you made? The CIA don't like Marxism therefore it's correct? Dialectical materialism describes change in matter as the struggle between opposites so therefore it's basically science? These are pretty weak fucking points.
I've read leftists, I used to be one, that's why I know you'll grow out of if. You're so fucking obnoxious for someone who hasn't said anything of substance in this entire thread.

>>16881660
>bro the people who study the performance of modern society aren't calling for everyone to overthrow modern society
woa dude this is mind blowing this changes everything I wonder what other profound implications Marxism has for us.

>>16881517
>You're talking as though the upper classes and CIA read Marx, agreed with him and then decided it would be in their own interest to subvert Marxism as opposed to them seeing Marxism as a dangerous ideology that would be a security threat to the US.

Even a bourgeois brainlet would understand no longer owning the means of productions would be against their class interest, how are you this dense?

>>16881677
Take your meds

>>16881689
>thinking the cia nigger is me
bruh

>>16881705
>class interest
People don't think in class interests, this is one the biggest fuck ups of Marxism. Class interests are a meme. Obviously Marxism taking root in America would be bad for the upper classes, that doesn't necessarily make Marxist theories correct. You do understand that?

>>16881381
they're not supposed to understand the concept of class, they're supposed to become aware of their condition, identify with it and act accordingly
according to the theory at least

>>16881712
You all type like catty women so it's easy to get you all confused.

>>16880194
Reminder that the Labor Theory of Value was invented by Adam Smith and also used by Ricardo who are the fathers of classical economics. Neoclassical economics was invented because 'ltv' got associated with Marx and the ruling class didn't like that.

>>16881627
Communism isn't a threat to the system either considering your phone is made in China and your shoes are made in Vietnam.

>>16881761
They'll say that's not real communism

>>16881703
Theology and religion has lasted thousands of years, studied and practiced by some brilliant people. It's obvious bullshit with holes a teenager could see through, but it endures to today. And it's also been in the business for apologizing for social elites and inducing passivity and conformity in the public. Curious.

Notice how you can't answer the original question and this drifts further away though? Like I said, it always happens. Never is there a simple, neutral clear headed explanation why it is wrong by an informed speaker.

I can get kidz explanations for the theory of relativity on youtube in a pretty damn comprehensible manner. But apparently one of the economics is just too tough.

Marxism in its pure form is dead. It was essentially an analysis of modern society that claims class conflict will lead to a massive restructuring of society, however, Marx never describes this new society outside of a view vague descriptions. He said the new society will arise organically. Well there has been tons of class conflict since then and modern society has been restructuring itself since then to adapt to the class conflict and persist itself. This is why Marxism is a dead subject outside of people who enjoy philosophy. It called for a violent international (not a revolution isolated to one nation) revolution to occur. All there is to do is wait until that happens organically if you're a true Marxist. Otherwise you start delving down Maoist/Stalinist bullshit that is a bastardization of Marx. The reality is after WW1 was the greatest chance for a revolution. Now this society is going to progress until it collapses. No ideology is going to suddenly make people stop. The system has to fail organically.

Trolling people into arguing against a dead ideology like communism is /lit/'s last dying grasp at user engagement. Communism failed and Marxism is wrong. The end. Go do something else with your holiday instead of hiding in your room arguing with a larper on the internet.

>>16881774
Reminder that you will live and die under neoliberalism, or if the trends among the youth continue, fascism.

>>16881381
Retard. People mock Americans precisely BECAUSE Americans get class better than any other people on the planet. Americans completely and utterly lack any consciousness except the economic. It's the Enlightenment dream: man distilled to nothing but how much he consumes and how much he produces.

>>16881750
Not really. Even Smith and Ricardo admitted the LTV only held under very specific circumstances (precisely because of the "polishing a turd doesn't make it valuable" problem). The term was invented to refer to Classical economists who had abandoned the LTV in favor of Marginalism. Other economists (such as, but not solely, the Austrians) had abandoned the LTV prior to the coining of the term, but had also abandoned large segments of Classical economics alongside it.

Which has nothing to do with the ruling class as "neoclassical economics" is actually a back formation, such that there were "neoclassical economists" long before the term was invented. It also has nothing to do with the opinions of the ruling class as the ruling class loves Marxism precisely because it completely blinds people to reality (you are not just the summation of your paycheck and your monthly expenditures).

>>16881796
the fuck? the youth are the most progressive and liberal generation in human history. literally all they talk about is human rights for LGBT or black people or any other woke shit they perform. where is the threat of fascism with the youth, 12 year olds on reddit?

>>16881783
I feel like most of the leftists that were disillusioned by Marxism went full retard in that they rejected the material analysis of politics

>>16880204
Marx believed that labour was the substance of value, see his first and second letters to kugelmann.

>>16880194
Wissenschaft=/=science, diamat wasn't something used by marx.

>>16881813
They're not exactly going to shout about it in public are they? But in private they are moving right. Support for LGBT people among the youth has gone down. Young white men are being radicalised left right and center.

>>16880236
define your terms and defend your claims please

>>16881843
never mind you got me for a sec there

>>16880984
I am familiar with Marxian economic and political theory and do not really have a life

>>16881707
>marx foucault clastres deleuze debord camatte kaczynski baudrillard zerzan should take their meds

Ok anglo

Marxism does not work.

Communism does not work.

Socialism does not work.

Capitalism works.

>>16881854
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/24/lgbtq-acceptance-millennials-decline-glaad-survey/1503758001/
>The number of Americans 18 to 34 who are comfortable interacting with LGBTQ people slipped from 53% in 2017 to 45% in 2018
>And that is down from 63% in 2016

>>16881886
Capitalism is anti-racist and therefore anti-truth

>>16881886
>Capitalism works

> Marxists exist

>>16881866
Go back to r/sots

>>16880194
>and Marxism is not a science.
It's actually a religion.

>>16881811
>the LTV only held under very specific circumstances (precisely because of the "polishing a turd doesn't make it valuable" problem).
yea, just like marx
>the ruling class loves Marxism
delusional

>>16881908
the dumbest place on the internet, only after /lit/. I'm good.