/lit/ - Literature

>>16818623
If you’re Nietzsche’s last man sure

>>16818623
No you fucking idiot fuck you. A fake life of fake pleasure artificially imposed upon you to prevent self growth is not a utopia. A level of suffering, or rather adversity, is necessary to create a full and healthy human being.

>>16818623
if you mean how they live in the Reservations then yes

>>16818684
>A fake life of fake pleasure artificially imposed upon you to prevent self growth is not a utopia.
What about Brave New World though?

>>16818623
kali yuga

>>16818623
I'm addicted to soma irl but we call it golden brown and the texture's like sun.

>>16818684
>compared to the real world

>>16818684
who determines if a a pleasure is fake

>>16818700
Self growth towards what end exactly? Being a blackpilled clown world poster? Most people don't enjoy random short lives filled with pain and fear.

In the absence of a caring God to mend the wounds of the world, it's humanities role to reconstruct reality into the home it should have been all along.

>>16818684
>A fake life of fake pleasure artificially imposed upon you
This is the current world except you have to also be a wage slave for the other 50% of your life

>>16818623
BNW is not a utopia. A thing cannot become utopian by comparison to an other thing. A thing is either a dystopia, a utopia, or neither. If a thing is neither then it can be more or less utopian or dystopian. BNW is an outright dystopia.

>>16818781
It's a utopia that tries to be a dystopia

>>16818790
What do you mean?

>>16818735
The world is going to end with a horror, and there's a caring God but He lets the world take its course, intervening where He wills. It is human to endure, subhuman to complain, and transhumanism is just dehumanization. There will be nothing left to enjoy because we will be so removed from our humanity. Even if there is something to enjoy, we'll grow bored and be overstimulated

>>16818790
If it was a utopia the Savage wouldn't have went out the way he did. It was kinda the point of the ending.

>>16818623
Yes but incels existed. MC was an incel

>>16818822
No I meant Huxley clearly wrote it as a dystopia, because that's what sells.
>>16818806
Humanity was always in disarray, we've always been victims to circumstance. The logical consequence of being conscious of ourselves is to transfigure the world around us to our own desires. Those who have the gift of thinking outside of the box through imagination are the ones who are going to bend and mold this world into something different.

>>16818822
Savage was a /pol/tard who wanted to suffer. But he couldn't so he had to kill himself

>>16818623
With the ending in mind, undeniably so. If you aint happy with infinite happiness, you get to hang out on a private island with the other malcontents

>>16818684
Fake pleasure doesn’t exist, if it feels good it’s real.

>>16818822
whose interpretation of the world defines it as a utopia or dystopia? the savage was the only one self-aware enough to realize it was a dystopia, but to those who didn't question things, it was a utopia.

huxley's point is that a utopia or a dystopia can never exist because someone will always interpret one as the other and vice versa

>>16818623
If you're a small souled bug person then yes

>>16818879
They even have reservations for tedfags. Everyone wins.

>>16818866
The ruling elite, the authorities, the government, whatever you want to call those in charge in BNW are aware of the way society has been manipulated.

>>16818684
seethe harder distractionlet

>>16818623
If you're a coomer and consoomer, yes
>>16818748
Which is why many people say the current world is a mixture of BNW and 1984. It's a cliche but it fits pretty well.

>>16818684
>A level of suffering, or rather adversity, is necessary to create a full and healthy human being.

>>16818915
>deal with it

>>16818915
See the insect seethe at the Chad who says Yes to life

The Great Reset will bring this about.

Why do you think they legalised weed? Wake up

>>16818866
We're transfiguring it but we'll never have an eternal utopia. The only way to escape suffering is to make ourselves non-humans, but that's not desirable for humans (only lab rats). Also, donate your mother's dead body and your own to science so they can do research and stuff. C'mon, you're keeping Progress(tm) behind.

>>16818915
you can make fun of it all you want but where is he wrong?

>>16818914
>Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business (1985) is a book by educator Neil Postman.
Orwell died, Huxley became a Hindu and wrote Island.

>>16818940
>The only way to escape suffering is to make ourselves non-humans
Humanity is always becoming, it's inevitable that we will eventually change into something completely different. Even the human itself was built upon past biological circumstances

>>16818948
A “full healthy human” is an arbitrary phrase and there’s no reason to believe that one has to be traumatized to be a proper person. The idea that one needs misery is just stockholm syndrome.

>>16818931
There can't be another war at all if they all just legalize weed. People will be too 420 blazed to fight

>>16818948
Not him but it's unfalsifiable and and also vapid. It's just some edgy shit cope to excuse so-called tough love.

>>16818960
>Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business (1985) is a book by educator Neil Postman.
It's a pretty decent book but what are you trying to say?

>>16818966
Suffering does not need to be traumatizing or misery, you weak-minded bugman. You need adversity in order to grow. You can't grow as a person if you spend your entire life in a bubble. You just don't like facing reality.

>>16818972
see >>16818982

>>16818931
Weed was criminalized at the behest of Dupont and their nylon ropes. The war on drugs is lucrative for the prison industrial complex.

>>16818982
If you have ants crawling on you, biting you, you should probably wipe them off and move lol

>>16818972
>unfalsifiable
go back

>>16819001
What are you trying to say?

>>16818982
If you change traumatize to uncomfortable you're still wrong. Let everyone be relaxed and calm and at peace in tranquility.

>>16818982
People justify suffering because it leads to growth but the purpose of growth is to be better equipped to deal with more suffering.

It’s circular nonsense, there is no inherent value to “growth”.

>>16819010
You need to go back yourself and pick up a dictionary.

>>16818961
Then any supposition is valid. The future is not guaranteed to be a progress towards something inhuman simply because we "evolved" from something lesser in the past.

>>16818966
>stockholm syndrome
A misdiagnosis; everything is stockholm's syndrome, eh? Has anything ever made you suffer, and despite that, you've justified it? That's Stockholm's syndrome. In reality, we're naturally inclined to justify life and the like, other views are dysgenic and promote deathliness, which does not carry over well to future generations. So no, it's not really stockholm's syndrome. Just hardiness. Besides, "stockholm's syndrome" is not actually a refutation or argument, it's just a buzz word pessimists use.

>A “full healthy human” is an arbitrary phrase and there’s no reason to believe that one has to be traumatized to be a proper person
A "full healthy human" is not arbitrary at all, healthiness is not arbitrary. It's as concrete as disease. One does not have to be traumatized to be a proper person, but the idea that science will magically solve all of our problems without creating other, larger problems is naive.

>>16818972
What do you mean it's "unfalsifiable?" It's falsifiable by showing that any amount of suffering makes an unbalanced human being. You haven't made any arguments, just meme words ad nauseam.

>>16819020
>>16819017
Why do I know you're both depressed failures who suffer from anxiety and hide from the world? Truly bugmen.

>>16819041
>Then any supposition is valid. The future is not guaranteed to be a progress towards something inhuman simply because we "evolved" from something lesser in the past.
Life is a never-ending story nigga

>>16819043
>accusing people who object to your glorification of suffering to be people who suffer and thinking it’s an argument

>>16819001
No, you transhumanist fucks are saying "if you have ants crawling on you and biting you, you should alter your body so that you do not feel any physical pain." A normal human would brush off the ants. A self-proclaimed intellectual with poor physiognomy would alter his body to "transcend" pain, for what reason? You are appealing to the weakest of men, and this technology will only lobotomize or weaken them further. You think a technocracy cares about the drones that sustain it? You want us to become placated machines? Why not lobotomize yourself, it's the same thing?

>>16819027
He's not wrong, your use of "unfalsifiable" doesn't even make sense

>>16819020
>the purpose of growth is to be better equipped to deal with more suffering
According to your brain trauma-inspired conception of it.

>>16819041
>Besides, "stockholm's syndrome" is not actually a refutation or argument, it's just a buzz word pessimists use.
There was nothing to refute, you haven’t made a case for why suffering is good or necessary. One could easily imagine a functional humanity without it.

>>16819059
I never thought it was an argument, it was an observation. Only people who are deeply depressed view the world as suffering. There is no arguing with people who don't dare face reality.

>>16819020
Yes, not everything should grow. Especially that which doesn't want to. Transcendence is for real humans. The world-weary and the stagnant should speed up their departure.

>>16819074
Everyone in the world acknowledges that there is suffering in life and almost everyone agrees we should diminish it, except for a few edgelords like you desu.

>>16819060
>No, you transhumanist fucks are saying "if you have ants crawling on you and biting you, you should alter your body so that you do not feel any physical pain." A normal human would brush off the ants. A self-proclaimed intellectual with poor physiognomy would alter his body to "transcend" pain, for what reason? You are appealing to the weakest of men, and this technology will only lobotomize or weaken them further. You think a technocracy cares about the drones that sustain it? You want us to become placated machines? Why not lobotomize yourself, it's the same thing?
You're very much a brainlet. Transhumanism is no different than the biological evolutionary process, other than the fact that we've evolved self consciousness and awareness of evolution

>>16819091
>Everyone in the world acknowledges that there is suffering in life
But not everyone view life through the lens of suffering which you seem to do
> almost everyone agrees we should diminish it
We should diminish some forms of suffering, not all, that would make us weak
>except for a few edgelords like you desu.
kek

>>16819091
Diminish the level of suffering to what? Isn't all desire suffering? Is the goal to abolish desire itself?

>>16819111
Buddhists thought trillions of years in advanced, we're just focusing on creating heaven on earth as opposed to hell on earth

>>16819131
Are you assenting that the goal ought to be to abolish desire altogether?

>>16819142
Buddhism is not ant-desire. It is against desire that brings the cycle of suffering, i.e. impermanent happiness.

>>16819152
anti-desire*

>>16819142
Sometimes satisfying a desire can help you to detach from it

>>16819152
>It is against desire that brings the cycle of suffering, i.e. impermanent happiness.
Which is all of it. Even desiring Nirvana can lead you astray.

>>16819073
I could not imagine such a humanity. We are designed to grow desensitized when over stimulated by pleasure, and perpetual blandness is an existence no man could desire. No MAN, mind you, but perhaps a transhumanist mongrel would envy such a life, because at least it has no PAIN. Oh my Darwin, no one can stand pain! Suffering is good because it strengthens one's character, it provides a struggle and a transformation. It makes you think more, it makes you less complacent, it makes you want more. Don't be an Eloi. Only science could create a "functional humanity without suffering," but thinking that this would be a perfect reality, without grave compromises and problems is, as I said, hopeful bugmanism.

>>16819049
Yes. And every good story has chapters. Our chapter is coming to a close. No utopia has or will ever work. No attempt to eradicate all life has or will ever work (most proponents of this are too mentally ill or depressed to do much in the way of achieving such a goal, anyways). The only hope is to go forward, with God, and to accept what cannot be ameliorated. Instead, we'll just chop off whatever irks us, and go the way of Event Horizon. "Where we're going, we don't need eyes to see!" Sure, a future with suffering isn't desirable for humans. However, a maddening hive populated by mindless, inhuman technojunkies isn't attractive to humans, either.

>>16819107
Transhumanism is manmade evolution, but there's no real pressure to evolve in the direction that transhumanists propose- that is, removing pain. But this is what the technocracy profits off of- making weak people to desire the cure they peddle. Weak, dysfunctional nerds who can't handle suffering and ill-feeling.

>>16819111
The goal is to abolish everything that makes us human. This is "evolution." Evolution towards shit, that nobody sane desires.

>>16819110
>We should diminish some forms of suffering, not all, that would make us weak
The only reason weakness is bad is because we live in a world where it causes suffering. This is that circular reasoning again.

>>16819152
By impermanent desires, do you mean earthly things like wealth, health, food, shelter, and so on?

>>16819186
>We are designed to grow desensitized when over stimulated by pleasure, and perpetual blandness is an existence no man could desire
This can be circumvented, direct brain stimulation does not cause tolerance. Gradients of functional bliss rather than blandness is within reach for humanity. Read our lord and savior David Pearce.

>>16819189
No, weakness is inherently bad. Whereas suffering isn't inherently bad. Why won't you face reality?

>>16819186
>The only hope is to go forward, with God, and to accept what cannot be ameliorated
The Dark Enlightenment was a failed reactionary experiment, we're not going back to medievalist ways of thinking about reality. We've barely even started moving to greater vistas of reality, and human utopia will eventually be a reality some day, and exist in a liminal space between human and post human.

>>16819230
What are you doing here Bill Gates, we don't want your transhumanism

>>16819186
>The goal is to abolish everything that makes us human.
This is where I was trying to lead the discussion. Human life is inseparable from desire, and desiring is suffering. A world where stomachs are never hungry is one where man has stopped existing, because the only way desire can be totally abolished is in nonexistence of the human body. The life deniers would rather humans stopped being born than humans live in a world with suffering.

>>16819230
Yea and maybe you'll kiss a girl too in VR lmao. Get with reality dude, history doesn't end

>>16819238
What you want didn't work or else we wouldn't be here. It's our job to imagine something better in order to transcend the prison

>>16818684
The purpose of a full and healthy human being is to endure suffering cuck

>>16819256
Just because history doesn't end in a cosmic sense, doesn't negate the fact that we still strive towards goals. If you woke up in a garbage dump, you wouldn't just lay on your back and accept it as the way things have to be.

>>16819263
You started from the wrong premise, life is not a prison. It's only becoming a prison thanks to the transhumanists. What we did worked fine until order was inverted by your kind.

>>16819274
What you suggest isnt forwards, it's mass suicide

>>16819271
t. sadomasochist
No the purpose is completely constrained to what's desired, the rest is the consequences of those desires. Evolution is steered by what was once desired, and without self awareness it just becomes more circumstance without end

>>16819283
>What you suggest isnt forwards, it's mass suicide
How?

Unironically yes. The thoughtless ones get to enjoy all their hedonism. The ones who have free will and try to rebel get sent to cities of like minded individuals.

>>16819297
See>>16819246

The idea that humanity can be made into a race of unsuffering, undesiring non physical beings via our own technology is a nihilistic cope

>>16819338
Is it unthinkable that someone with self awareness and free will would actively choose the utopia over struggle for struggles sake? This is just a cope to feel superior to everyone else, because that smug sense of superiority gives you more satisfaction than actually living an enjoyable life

>>16819352
You're a reactionary, you don't understand what humanity actually is but you're afraid of anything that's potentially better than our current state. It's a similar mentality to people who are in abusive relationships.

>>16819368
>you don't understand what humanity actually is
But you do huh? Lmao
>you're afraid of anything that's potentially better than our current state
No, we're afraid of anything that's probably worse than our current state. The way the transhumanists are taking us is definitely not better than where we are now.

>>16819383
>The way the transhumanists are taking us is definitely not better than where we are now.
How so? What are you going to miss out on? Most people who are against trans-humanism would rather humanity exist in a never ending race war

>>16819396
>How so? What are you going to miss out on?
Because it takes away what makes us human - free will, choice - and replaces it with their inverted vision of it. I don't want some deluded cult deciding where the entirety of humanity is supposed to go.
>Most people who are against trans-humanism would rather humanity exist in a never ending race war
War and race are part of being human. Thinking you can transcend those is folly and playing god. You are not god.

>>16819440
You're way too dumb to see beyond the circumstances you're used too. You're like a battered housewife who thinks that wife nature is to be battered and there's not much more outside of her sad state of affairs

>>16819440
On another note the God you talk of either doesn't exist or is indifferent. The mere fact that we're self aware and conscious gives us the initiative towards transfiguring ourselves instead of waiting for salvation from some higher being.

>>16819458
No, you're so dumb you think you're enlightened while you're not. Where people like you want to take us will end up in tragedy. You may think you sound like a rational pacifist, but you sound like a totalitarian freak. You will be the battering husband in your analogy, forcing all of humanity to follow your enlightened ways or else. If you and yours want to pretend to be god to yourselves, do it. Just don't force it upon the rest of us.

>>16819487
When you grow older and learn more about life, you'll find out that god exists but is not what you thought it was.

>>16819359
Nothing is stopping you from living with the savages bro

>>16819208
Then the question remains- will it be desirable to experience constant, unabating pleasure? Science can make it so, no? Science seems to be able to make anything happen, but that doesn't mean it will. All of the frontiers will be exhausted, and we'll just be barely human pleasure-machines. It's all a pie in the sky. We need to get there to see the problems it will raise.

>>16819230
We've barely even started moving towards nihilistic dystopias, there's nothing redeemable about our direction. Things aren't getting any better, and keep in mind the powers that be don't want "transhumanism for all." All that you said is just blind hope in science's magic ability to do anything. It can, but will it?

>>16819263
It didn't work? Hasn't every attempt at making a utopia fallen on its ass? What makes you think your scientific wet dream will be flawless and eternal? You advocate "transcending the prison" when the technology given to you by your scientist priests is a jumpsuit given to you by new prison guards. Their technology will have back doors; if it will even help you "escape your prison," it will also put you in another. Unless you really think they're brave philanthropists who just want to help us escape this "jail cell" of a life (not a necessary view) so that we can become mindless drones that spout enlightenment/gnostic slogans all day despite not having tasted any of that "transhumanist utopia" they are promised.

>>16819292
>t. sadomasochist
For a believer in the gospel of science, you're not awfully smart. I don't derive sexual pleasure from causing or receiving pain. Perhaps you get off on getting embarrassed, otherwise you wouldn't have made such a mentally bankrupt accusation.

>>16819359
Yes, and what a good thing to give up your free will and self awareness for the sake of feeling pleasure and avoiding pain. But who is administrating the system that allows you to exist in this catatonic state? It seems you've put yourself into another jail cell. You have to ask yourself, "who is making all of this technology that I am going to put into myself?" Either you'll dismiss it as a "conspiracy theory" or you'll be given pause.

>>16819368
I want something better than our current state, but I also recognize it's impossible and completely worthless to wish for a utopia unless you're an atheist. If you're an atheist, then of course you'll die advocating for something you'll never see or experience. You don't want something "better than our current state," you want to make us inhuman so that the "current state" that is a corequisite of human life can be abolished. At this point, it's a question of pleasure over humanity, and whether turning your back on your humanity and "evolving" (so you think) will really turn out as well and ever-lasting as you think it will.

>>16819488
>Where people like you want to take us will end up in tragedy
We've existed in perpetual tragedy, the entire human condition has been in mire for the last 2000 years. Cope harder
>>16819498
God is not relevant to our situation, there isn't some benevolent higher being who's guiding us all we have is the Vatican pedo state who have been larping as God's messengers

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue (whether or not suffering is necessary for self development), but none of these posts arguing for either side are very good. Any good related reading on the subject?

>>16819458
science will crumble. transhumanis have a total dependence of science. the grandiosity of their ideas depends on science as Truth.
transhumanism is just some partial consequence of humanity embracing science as his saviour and truth-teller. even if there is no explicit transhumanist party, their ideas probably will spread the same.
in a way, its inevitable this kind of sects come and go in the times of science. but science will be replaced by another Truth in the future, and everything will be the same.

dont believe in science as the ultimate truth, science nor transhumanism go to extint suffering, they are just deluding themselves. they are making wishful thinking and nothing more.
>now yes, now we are, finally, giving you the haven on earth

>>16819520
>will it be desirable to experience constant, unabating pleasure? Science can make it so, no? Science seems to be able to make anything happen, but that doesn't mean it will. All of the frontiers will be exhausted, and we'll just be barely human pleasure-machines
Wouldn't we just get tired of the monotony of experiencing the same emotion over and over again? Don't we crave variety, even if that might include suffering? As it is, a lot of people willing seek out depressing art
Not really arguing by the way since I'm no neuroscientist, genuinely wondering

>>16819525
>We've existed in perpetual tragedy, the entire human condition has been in mire for the last 2000 years. Cope harder
If you call the past 2000 years perpetual tragedy, what's coming under transhumanism will be hell on earth. Yes, the past two millennia have been bad, but it couldn't have been any other way since we are in the Kali Yuga. You do not have the key to solve this.
>God is not relevant to our situation, there isn't some benevolent higher being who's guiding us all we have is the Vatican pedo state who have been larping as God's messengers
That's why I said:
>When you grow older and learn more about life, you'll find out that god exists but is not what you thought it was.
Your abrahamic idea of god is not god. If you continue developing yourself, you will find out what god is eventually.

>>16819545
You're a fucking retard, all your fears boil down to "le science bad, le nature prevails". There's nothing normal about human nature as it is, were entirely the product of archaic circumstances. It's not wrong to adapt toward better more vivid desires than to just accept whatever the current situation entails which has been confusion, fear, and violence

>>16819396
>How so? What are you going to miss out on?
A life of struggle and overcoming. A real, genuine life. I don't want the safety wheels, I don't want the IV drip of pleasure that I'll never grow tired of because I'm not human anymore.

We'll talk when science has made significant progress towards a "transhumanist future" without any equally bad repercussions. But just know that if something can go wrong in the future, it will go wrong. And you're putting your future in slimy hands, you credulous geek.

>>16819458
But who's doing the battering? And why am I the victim in this situation? I am not being forced to justify this existence through Stockholm's syndrome because it is natural to accept this existence and to justify it. There is nothing to this existence beyond pain, to "transcend this existence" would be to cease to exist. It would not be anything that me, as a "battered housewife," could actually experience. If you divorce (transhumanism) yourself (housewife) from your husband (humanity), you're just opening yourself up to other problems. In that case, life would not be suffering, because suffering would be abolished. But then we'd just devolve, going back to being mindless creatures of instinct. Otherwise, if we are all-powerful and do not suffer, there is no reason to do anything.

>>16819487
Yes, we can improve ourselves. No, there is no reason nor is there a desire to transfigure ourselves. The God we talk of is not indifferent, He merely exists in eternity, outside of time. He allows some things to happen, other things He prevents. If the End Times are coming, He is not truly indifferent; this would also throw a wrench into transhumanist eternal-utopia pipe dreams.

>>16819564
>we are in the Kali Yuga
Doesn't the Kali Yuga preceed an age of utopia?

>>16819595
>There is nothing to this existence beyond pain
If you think this way, you ARE a battered housewife. You don't have the ability to think in terms of meta narratives, maybe you should go find a plot of land and graze on some grass fields

>>16819597
Yes, but not the transhumanist utopia. It is not something that can be brought about by will. If you try to force it, like the transhumanists want, you will only create worse circumstances here until the golden age comes. It's bad enough already, don't do it.

>>16819582
>>16819582
>has been confusion, fear, and violence
you really think science will resolve this?. ok, go for it. and dont forget your prays.
science is an idea, a tool. dont forget it.
i dont have any fear, i see science as part of humanity "fear, confusion and violence". not like the salvation.

>>16819609
>le everything magically sorts itself out through non action
Derp

>>16819620
>I am a frothing at the mouth religious zealot
>science is also evil because its religious

>>16819622
That's not what I said nor implied but apparently you are too shallow of a person to understand anything that falls outside of your limited imagination. When you grow up you might understand.

>>16819368
You don't understand that life without self overcoming has little to offer. Let's say you manage to increase the global life span to a potentially infinite length. Let's even say that bodily desires like hunger can be abolished -- who cares? Why does it matter? What's gained? If the value of life can be derived from a function, why would length or level of satisfaction of one's hunger be more important than say, spiritual fulfillment? Tell me.

>>16819631
No you were advocating slavery to circumstances over proactive direction. You're critical of human consciousness yet at the same time defend problems which were created by human consciousness.

>>16819525
>We've existed in perpetual tragedy, the entire human condition has been in mire for the last 2000 years. Cope harder
What makes you think science will get us out of this mire? If men control and use science, it will be tainted by our imperfection. Techno-illuminists just have their heads in the clouds, they're good ol boys like the rest of them, denying conspiracy theories and goosestepping one by one into their perfumed mire.

>God is not relevant to our situation
Because you've excised yourself from Him, like a child throwing a tantrum in the corner, away from the other normal children.
> there isn't some benevolent higher being who's guiding us
Because you don't have a holistic view of the universe. No one has.

> all we have is the Vatican pedo state who have been larping as God's messengers
That's all we have? Truth be told, you believe all God-believers to be mentally ill, so I wouldn't bring up Matthew 18:20 as you'd desperately fling a "yeah but they're also larping because they're, uh [pulls crank on tombola, ticket with "schizophrenic" written on it comes out], schizophrenic. Yeah, that's right. Their experience raises questions science can't answer, so I'll make unfalsifiable claims about their mental status!"

>>16819542
Join the discussion then, fren

>>16819561
No, apparently science has a magical quality that allows it to circumvent all problems. Not only is it possible to make humans that will experience constant pleasure without feeling monotony, but science will actually make this happen in the future. It's true, I read it in a transhumanist magazine. Oh wait, it's a pipe dream with no hope of practical application, and the author didn't foresee the problems it would raise. It's just a pessimism-optimism ouroboros. It's better to accept what is, and keep fighting. We are not really battered housewives, because He who does this to us does it for our own growth. For our own, real transhumanism. Transhumanists believe the same thing, that we need to continue to reproduce (creating more battered housewives) so that some humans in the future can eventually have our little utopia. My belief not only makes this utopia available to all, right now, but also posits an eternal, transcendental utopia.

>>16819582
Sure, it is not wrong to do so, but you want humans to become non-human, a thing most humans do not desire. It is not wrong to have a robotic limb here, a genetic alteration there, but utter transcendence requires an utter alteration of the human. If we abolish suffering, we must also abolish agency and personality, because there is no reason to do anything at that point. You are totally complacent. Your "vivid desires" are new joyrides that get old fast

>>16819641
Why does it matter? Because I can imagine better worlds than the one I was thrusted into by chance, and it's my purpose to help realize these worlds to the best of my ability. Look into buddhist cosmology, they're already aware of higher heaven realms where peoples lifespans are vastly longer, and life is abundant

>>16819647
>No you were advocating slavery to circumstances over proactive direction.
No I wasn't, that's just what you want to think I advocated for. I haven't even touched upon what constitutes good action, I have only criticised transhumanism so far.
Also stop being so disingenuous. You know very well that transhumanism will end in global slavery, don't try to invert it.
>You're critical of human consciousness yet at the same time defend problems which were created by human consciousness.
Human consciousness is a result of divine consciousness. So long as you don't understand that, you will be grasping at straws. You make a lot of assumptions based on very limited understanding.

>>16819666
>You know very well that transhumanism will end in global slavery, don't try to invert it.
Nope, it's a step towards equality and justice. There is no sense of justice in nature, it's just the strong overpowering the weak for better or worse. Transhumanism is proactively repairing the human condition towards something closer to a divine home

>>16819605
>maybe you should go find a plot of land and graze on some grass fields
This is indistinguishable from the future you espouse

>If you think this way, you ARE a battered housewife
No, because I also believe in a God that will redeem this existence, that will add meaning to this pain. I also believe that this existence will not last forever, and that any attempts to create utopias will fail disastrously (as they always have), and those who attempted to construct them will be forever reviled as eugenic, scientifically murderous charlatans. I do not believe that any suffering here on earth is unbearable, or gratuitous, so there is no "battered housewife" dynamic going on here. That's just weakness speaking. Transhumanists ride on the coattails of scientists, but who owns the scientists? Who funds the research? Who profits from the technology they make?

> You don't have the ability to think in terms of meta narratives
I do but I reject them all as farces that don't deliver on their promises, just as you consider them as inevitable.

>>16819628
Your view of religion is that it is evil, he is trying to show you how you are what you hate (i.e., you are religious, and for something unworthy to boot).

>>16819647
Proactive direction falls under slavery to circumstances. Everything that occurs is fated, so it is "enslaved" to circumstance. Of course, because it precedes a utopia, this term "slavery" is unmerited or powerless.

>>16819641
Exactly, they're just moving the frontier one step further. Once you get tired of the final frontier, you move on to the next one. And so on, and so forth. The only way forward is to make yourself a lobotomized pleasure-slave, thereby not having transcended this "prison reality" in any way. Rather, you've enslaved yourself to its worst elements and excised your consciousness so you don't see how low you've gotten. Slaves to carnal pleasure; that's only a problem because manmade utopias always fail. We need something truly transcendental, not just more prison cells masquerading as the outside

>>16819628
science is not evil. my point is that is just an idea. and as an idea will change and eventually cease to give interesting answers to humanity.
the "dont forget your prays" is just a retard wink. i admit it. but its because i see too dumb to really believe science will erradicate "confusion, fear and violence". i really do. it make me feel like im talking with people who believe in superpowers or something like that.

>>16819665
What makes longer life or lessened hunger for all a good thing? Just because you think it would be an improvement? Also, thrust into the world by chance, where else would you have been thrusted? I can imagine a better world where disenfranchised young men become pirate raiders on the coasts of South Asia.

>>16819690
>Nope, it's a step towards equality and justice.
>Some animals are more equal than others
You're either naive or stunted if you truly believe that. Equality and justice are not what should be aimed for, harmony and order are the highest goods. Those are not the same by any means.
>There is no sense of justice in nature
Yes there is, just not the kind of justice you like, because you're weak, and want to use transhumanism as the vehicle to raise you to god-like status.
>it's just the strong overpowering the weak for better or worse.
As it should be.
>Transhumanism is proactively repairing the human condition towards something closer to a divine home
You know nothing of divinity. You cannot repair anything if you don't know why or how it is broken. You think you are doing good but you are inverting order.
I really hope you're just a very naive 17 year old who is depressed and has been brainwashed by corporations to think equality and justice are the highest goods, and thinks transhumanism will make him happy, but somehow I doubt it.

>>16819665
Then go to those higher heaven realms, where surely they have other problems to tackle than ours, and bother us no more.

>>16819690
Yes, it's an attempted return to the Garden of Eden by fallen sons of Adam and Eve. It's like a retard making a house out of cardboard to imitate the house he was kicked out of. You're attempting to repair the human condition, but you'll fail at it because the human condition was inside of you all along, and whatever is begotten of the human condition will only perpetuate it. It's just atheistic heaven, and as you'd expect, it's built on trust in scientists (as opposed to God). Why you'd trust them so whole-heartedly, I cannot answer. But I can recommend taking your medications. Side effects may include depressive or suicidal thoughts or actions, diarrhea or vomiting, constipation, severe bloating, and severe transhumanism.

>>16819710
>No, because I also believe in a God that will redeem this existence
There's no reason to believe this, all the evidence points towards a wholly indifferent and impersonal God if you try to look for him externally. It's up to us to transfigured ourselves and steer this world in a better direction. There aren't higher beings who are going to do it for us. Religion is the opiates of the masses in the sense that it can alleviate the symptoms but it doesn't solve anything as far as fixing the problem is concerned

>>16819724
The God of this world is a sado masochist, I don't worship that God or his twisted idea of nature. It's through our own divine spark that we can revolt against circumstances and transfigured reality. Nature fags are cuck fetishists

>>16819724
>Equality and justice are not what should be aimed for, harmony and order are the highest goods
Not him, but I'd argue that equality and justice are seen as things that will combat the evils that prevent us from achieving harmony and order. I don't think that transhumanism would be a step towards equality and justice, though

>>16819728
Religion is a cope, I'm a man of action. Instead of waiting for salvation, I want to create salvation in this world

>>16819710
There is, objectively speaking, nothing but pleasure and pain in the world, we live in a godless void with no meaning or purpose, "God" is about as likely as a space unicorn because all the deists and theists' arguments are fucking garbage, videos like Kurzgesagt and all the mainstream sources like Reddit have lead hundreds of millions of people beginning to embrace atheistic, optimistic nihilism as the only rational way to live.

We know practically everything about the Universe, we know it is Cosmic Inflation and either an infinite cycle or it will end at Heat Death, eitherway, it will end life, no meaning, and it has no origin, leaving no origin for deists and theists' shitty arguments like "Uncaused Cause", "Contingency" or such absurdity.

There is no empirical evidence that these made up arbitrary human values like knowledge and "meaning of life" have any value beyond increasing pleasure, and if you deny the reality that pain is incomprehensibly awful all across the world, the greatest atrocity ever that must end at all cost, the observable reality too, that pleasure is all there is to it, you are deluded.

To top it all off, all the greatest geniuses in history and modernity, like Nietzsche, Elon Musk, Krauss, Hitchens, Kurzgesagt and Benatar have all been atheistic nihilists since it is the default position for rational beings that are not terrified of eternal oblivion, they know consciousness is just a bunch of information vibrating and being self-aware, there is no Hard Problem of Consciousness or "souls", you are fucking delusional to think the empirical method could be wrong when it has never failed.

The idea of philosophy and metaphysics too is also lunatic in this age of irreligious scientific enlightenment, it is objective matter now what morality is (Pleasure), what the meaning is (None), what originated the Universe (nothing).

The afterlife is self contradictory, all forms of God are self-contradictory, purpose and meaning does not exist, we are headed nowhere but maximizing pleasure with the action of ethical rational AI that will reject God too, there is nothing but pleasure. Swallow it up you weak bitch, it's just reality. All of you are unbelievably fucking retarded and can't debate. And your religions have ruined countless lives and caused more suffering than good because you unironically think humans can accomplish meaning, FUCK YOU. RELIGION IS THE SOURCE OF ALL HATE AND INTOLERANCE IN THIS DOOMED PLANET O FUCKING ARBITRARY IDIOTS.

>>16819754
>Instead of waiting for salvation, I want to create salvation in this world
you talk like a tv saturday morning cartoon super villain comic charachter.

>>16819743
>The God of this world is a sado-masochist
YES!

>>16819762
The moral of the story is always to NEVER EVER question the status quo, goy.

>>16819759
>it is objective matter now what morality is (Pleasure)
the problem with people like you is that you dont understand that this is a philosophical assumption, not a fact.

>>16819768
fuck BDSM unless its femdom

>>16819743
You don't know what god is. You think of the abrahamic god but that is not god.
>It's through our own divine spark that we can revolt against circumstances and transfigured reality.
You don't know what that divine spark is since you don't know god.
>Nature fags are cuck fetishists
And transhumanist fags are moral fetishists. Now what?
>>16819745
> I don't think that transhumanism would be a step towards equality and justice, though
Correct. But apart from that, the question will always be, equality and justice in whose eyes? They can be by-products, but never goals in themselves.

>>16819780
You don't know God yourself, you worship the excrement and mistake it for God

>>16819773
It is a fact until you provide empirical evidence that there is anything but pain and pleasure, that is how argumentation and science works.

>>16819759
Christrannies gonna dillate hard.

Paradise is obvious to anyone with a soul. If you are conscious you deserve to be God more than what is currently God. It's really easy to understand how the world should be it's piss easy to make paradise. I could do it right now if I was God.

>>16819792
>morality is something science resolve now.
you are reaching to pathetic levels now.
you are a supremacist and you dont even know it.

>>16819778
Femdom is like two steps removed from cuckoldry. Straight up old fashioned rape is the patrician fetish.

>>16819788
I do know god, and it is not the personified man in the sky you think it is. You sound like an edgy atheist. How old are you?
Answer me this, if you think the god of this world is a sado-masochist, what does that say of our divine spark? Are we then also sado-masochists?

>>16819807
You will never ever be an INFP chad who is lovingly dominated in bed by his INxJ gf

>>16819730
>There's no reason to believe this, all the evidence points towards a wholly indifferent and impersonal God if you try to look for him externally
A traditional atheist would just say that evidence points to no God, because once you accept that there could be a God, you have to follow the thread to the end. Sure, God is indifferent in that He is not alleviating all of our sufferings here on earth, and is allowing suffering to occur. But if you believe in the Christian God, you also believe in the evidence provided by the Bible, saints, monks, miracles, spiritual encounters, and more, which point to "afterlives" and "judgements" and other ideas that contradict a wholly "impassive" God. "External" really seems to imply indifference on your part, otherwise you'd be delving into the history of religious experiences and seeing that such a view of God is the shallow, babby's first atheist conception of God/The One.

> It's up to us to transfigured ourselves and steer this world in a better direction
Yeah, yeah, you've said this same shit at least three other times in this thread. We transfigure ourselves spiritually, not materially. We are not suffering from Stockholm's syndrome because that implies that we went from a "free" to a "victimized" state, or that there is any other state than the human state we find ourselves in. Using your same agnostic skepticism, there is no evidence to indicate we could ever be more than human, or that such a thing would actually resolve the problem of suffering while still leaving a cognizant human to enjoy that unburdening.

>There aren't higher beings who are going to do it for us
Exactly, we have to focus on improving ourselves. "We can't expect God to do all the work." Once we attain that state, we will receive the prize the "higher beings" have prepared for us. Call it "life-denial" and "harmful impassivity towards escaping this prison," I call it realism. You can only be so optimistic when it comes to probabilities, especially when all evidence points to the impossibility of a perfect "utopia."

>Religion is the opiates of the masses in the sense that it can alleviate the symptoms...
It doesn't solve anything from your atheistic perspective, but from the religious perspective it solves everything. Of course, it does solve many things because it dampens those human flaws that would cause us so much suffering (or hysteric fear thereof) in this world, but few are strong enough to succeed in this direction. So, we need Dr. Finkelberg to genetically modify your child to have traits X, Y, and Z and "fix the problem" only to create more problems because you realize that not all humans are one-minded utopians, and that your precious belief can exist only in cloud cuckoo land where the "problems" can actually be fixed, and for good.

Transhumanism is the opiate of the masses because it gives spiritually deficient freaks a raison d'etre. Of course, the powers that be want a utopia for themselves, not for us.

>>16819813
I'm not a Christian, cope harder poop worshipper

>>16819813
No God is the opposite of me that is why he is so ugly. But actually it doesn't even need to be God it doesn't feel pride or anything that is why it turned everyone into atheists which doesn't really make sense. In a realistic world some portion of the old Christians would have instead believed God is real and evil. It's really bad writing to turn everyone into either hardcore Christians or atheists.

>>16819805
Philosophy of morality, "value" and "meaning" is all a bunch of bullshit wishful thinking with no connection to reality, even the supposed "geniuses" like Kant are literal fucking retards if you think about their absurd premises for more than a few minutes, like Nietzsche did, they are weak individuals unable to accept that they aren't more than vibrating information in a meat jar wading through an entropy-selfdestructing void.

>>16819816
>Gentle femdom
Non-BDSM, may as well say 90% of sex is BDSM since vanilla is basically just gentle maledom.

>>16819826
I never said you were, you illiterate navelgazer, I said you based your concept of what god is around the abrahamic god, which is wrong. Learn to read ffs.

>>16819820
My entire point was that we as self aware conscious beings are God, and we transfigure ourselves

>>16819829
>No God is the opposite of me that is why he is so ugly.
You are retarded
>But actually it doesn't even need to be God it doesn't feel pride or anything that is why it turned everyone into atheists which doesn't really make sense.
You really are retarded.

>>16819833
You must not be reading my posts you dumb retarded

>>16819832
I hate BDSM desu, it's a hatred of love

>>16819840
No I am human you aren't.

I can't tell who's who anymore, fuck this thread, and fuck retards

>>16818623
I'll just calmly sit here and wait for christcucks to provide any rational, empirical reasoning against why hedonism is not objectively true, no "WAHHH UNCAUSED CAUSE" cosmological shit to """prove""" God exists, that is against my rules, it's bullshit.

>>16819841
No I read just fine, thanks

>>16819850
Like I said, you are retarded. You invert everything.

>>16819858
Christcucks need to understand that were instruments of God and our will I divine will

>>16819858
Hey maybe it's true but real humans don't just like things because an asshole thinks if something is conceivable it is real. A human enjoys things like love and adventure because of every single element of these things. A beautiful landscape is not simply pleasurable because of pleasure every element of that landscape feeds into you to produce pleasure. It is impossible to feel the same pleasure without the landscape. You see positive emotion is not a chemical it is something that requires each and every part of the experience to create.

>>16819847
No, it's a love of hate.

>>16819865
That's what you do you are an inversion of me and what I like. You are my shadow.

>>16819878
I dont care, I just dont enjoy cock and ball torture. It's not for me

>>16819754
More Nietzschean nonsense. No, religion does not say merely to "wait for salvation." Religion advocates action, as well. It just doesn't dangle a worldly paradise in front of our eyes.

>videos like Kurzgesagt
HAHAHAH "Kurzgesagt." I could refute their namby pamby shit with my brain shut off. No wonder.

>"Utopia" is about as likely as a space unicorn because all the transhumanist's and scientist's plans are short-sighted garbage

>We know practically everything about the Universe, we know it is Cosmic Inflation and either an infinite cycle or it will end at Heat Death, eitherway, it will end life, no meaning, and it has no origin, leaving no origin for deists and theists' shitty arguments like "Uncaused Cause", "Contingency" or such absurdity.
Science doesn't know anything, it only has theories that can be changed at any time when new evidence arises. Besides, this is no problem for theism as God could easily have created such a universe, or fabricated the evidence leading us to these conclusions.

>any value beyond increasing pleasure
I agree, we do what we do to increase pleasure.

>pain is incomprehensibly awful all across the world, the greatest atrocity ever that must end at all cost
I would rather be deluded than weak. I don't want to end any pain, I don't regret anything, I love and accept all of the outwardly meaningless suffering and death!


Sad to say that I only realized you were being ironic halfway through your post.

Either way, science is just a tool built on top of an arbitrary universe it has no justification for. "These laws govern our universe." Why? Why these laws? Why not other laws? "In this formula governing the exchange of heat, there is a constant that equals 4.99 x 10^22." Why exactly that number? Now "how," but "why?" Why do we have something, instead of nothing? "Something" need not be eternal, and eternity is unproveable anyway.

>>16819788
The excrement of God's excrement has more merit in it than anything you've ever produced

>>16819802
Who's Chris?
>religion is a cope
Everything, yes, even transhumanism, is a cope. I'm glad you're catching on.

>>16819759
Everybody dodging trying to actually argue against this because they deep down know it's an uncomfortable truth amuses me, desu.

A woman who takes the lead is hot

>>16819889
You're really boring and wrong

>>16819885
You are not the center of the universe. I am not your anything. You try to invert nature and create your own version of it based on unnaturality. Equality is the enemy of order, and "justice" the enemy of harmony.
Truth is not about what you like but about what is. You must be very young since you're so self-absorbed.

>>16819858
Not a Christcuck but wouldn't a purely hedonistic life be unfulfilling? Don't most of us seek greater meaning in some form or another?

>>16819907
Consciousness is the center of the universe, awareness is akin to lucidity in the mind of God

>>16819907
You're right anyone with a soul is the center of everything. But I am being kept apart from other people like me aren't I? So yes THIS universe DOES revolve around just me. But of course if there were others here with me they are just as important and deserve to be taken care of like I do. We all matter and we all deserve what we need. Everything else is nonsense all these stupid stories you right and there isn't an ounce of meaning in any of them.

>>16819829
>in a realistic world
Ah, so you're like one of those children who says "if I was that building's architect, I would have put more towers and spikey bits. It's a military building, no? That way, it would look scarier." Stay out of things that are beyond you

>>16819831
Why is there order instead of entropy? Why this specific order?

>>16819834
We call God evil, which is pretentious. We can call men evil, and we have been such evil gods, haven't we? What makes you think evilness like ours would beget a sublime transfiguration, without appealing to the transformative powers of a divine being?

>>16819858
Christianity is hedonism. Solved

>>16819831
you are the one advocating for a suffering-free environment my pal.

>>16819919
>Ah, so you're like one of those children who says
No I am saying all the stories of this world are full of plot holes and are not compelling at all. They make no sense and I don't have a single reason to believe in them. I believe in what I know is right I don't believe in nonsense.

>>16819918
Aha, you're just young and naive. You'll figure it out some day kiddo. Just remember, the transhumanists aren't your friends. They want you to be their slave.
>>16819916
Divine consciousness is.

>>16819929
>Aha, you're just young and naive
No I am human with a heart and soul. I have feelings and my feelings are important I understand that the source of all meaning is consciousness and the point of reality is for consciousness to exist. Essentially I AM the point or really WE are the point. I am not naive I am wiser than the rest of you.

>>16819935
Correction, you're young, naive and arrogant. I was like that too when I was 17 so there may be hope for you yet if you grow out of this edgy phase. You use a lot of buzzwords but I doubt you have even the slightest idea of what they actually mean.

>>16819948
Nope. But I know what you are and that you won't ever see how wrong you are. You'll just keep going like a program executing an infinite loop.

>>16819893
Yeah, it's an uncomfortable truth that there are people on 4chan who could seriously have posted that.

There is no meaning? Meaning is manmade
Nothing originated this universe? Why?
(Good) Morality is pleasure? Sure, but different moralities can still exist in spite of this

I wouldn't be surprised if they come out with a (totally not Wizard of Oz puppeteered) "ethical and rational" AI that will tell us to eat bugs and neuter ourselves so we can maximize pleasure. You egotist lickspittles would stampede each other trying to get your discount castrations. As long as you're going to the doctor on foot, to reduce carbon emissions. Also don't reproduce. Also don't eat meat, it's bad because AI said so. Put AI in your head so you can be commanded to live an ethical, maximally-pleasant lifestyle. No need to fight AI. Obey AI. You are special. You are not like your primitive forebears who believed in a God that told them to do everything. The AI implant is not just some government agent feeding you directions. "That's right, obey authority. Don't own any property. Move to the city, live in a capsule hotel. Sell your car, sell your baby to science. Take the vaccine and shut up." Now THIS is real Stockholm's syndrome, and it's the direction we're moving in. I can't wait for the utopia at the end of this tunnel

>>16819929
>Divine consciousness is.
Divine consciousness is self awareness, it's aware of the causes of unhelpful circumstances and is able to influence reform

>>16819954
>I wouldn't be surprised if they come out with a (totally not Wizard of Oz puppeteered) "ethical and rational" AI that will tell us to eat bugs and neuter ourselves so we can maximize pleasure
This is how reactionaries think, the irony is that we're already eating shit and we've been doing so for as long as the eye can see

>>16819951
Keep dreaming kiddo, hopefully you'll grow as a person and can look back at the ideas you hold now as the folly of youth. I advise you to read outside of your interests and into other esoteric traditions in order to get a broader understanding of what the concept god is.

>>16819967
You've given up and have become a loser

>>16819957
No, that's too simplistic. Self-awareness is only possible because of divine consciousness, but they are not nearly the same.

>>16819927
>No I am saying all the stories of this world are full of plot holes and are not compelling at all
You really think science is so monolithic and consistent? If it were, there wouldn't be anything left to learn, and scientists would be obsolete because research would be useless. I don't care about what is or isn't "full of plot holes" because most of those "plot holes" are just atheists doing bathroom reading and misinterpreting shit, or copy-pasting "contradictions" from other, smarter atheists.

It also doesn't matter if they have some plot holes, being made by men. What matters is the spiritual pathway that can be applied in your life, has yielded results, and will yield results for you. You're just so culturally castrated that you have no access to religious history and holy men. Unless you're joking, because you honestly read like the kind of person who'd watch Kurtzgesagt videos. "Optimistic nihilism." It's literally Christianity without God.

>>16819951
You are only saying that because it gives you some feeling of power over others, a sign of insecurity. Welcome to the club, we have jackets

>>16819973
You're projecting again. You're the one who's given up on himself and therefore wants to reject his humanity. But when you grow older you'll find out there's more to live for than your naive ideas of equality and justice.

>>16818881
I feel sorry for you.

>>16819976
No sorry brother it's not working anymore... You've lost me... Did you really think all the abuse would make me like you or the things you believe? Of course not I reject it all I reject you completely and all the masks you wear.

>>16819965
You think I didn't know that? I was just presenting the idea that the future won't be any different from the past.

>>16819973
Is this a fight you can win in your lifetime? Can you mesh with an AI, right now? No. But you can mesh with God, which is likely what that anon believes in. Perhaps you are not a loser, you had nothing to lose in the first place. Sadly, you also had nothing to gain.

>>16819873
Nonsensical and not empirical
>>16819876
So you concede to hedonism
>>16819915
All life is hedonistic, and everything, neuroscientifically and understanding consciousness as vibrating quantum sponginess, is a form of positive, inherently good pleasure or inherently bad pain.
>>16819919
> Christianity is hedonism
Kantards would beg to differ

>>16820004
>So you concede to hedonism
Eh I don't give a damn anymore. I came here to laugh at the "intellectuals" it's not how a real human works we are definitely fascinated by ideas but goddamn this academic nonsense is meaningless there are lots and lots of words and ideas but no meaning.

>>16819982
>You're the one who's given up on himself and therefore wants to reject his humanity
The problem is you can't imagine separating negative habitual patterns with "human nature". I value empathy, love, care, compassion as my human nature, but I don't worship inane concepts like "human nature" which are not real. To know yourself is to be the author of yourself, much of what is only originated as a consequence of circumstance rather than pure divine consciousness manifesting the kingdom of God which is what I advocate for.

>>16818623
Yes. It's intuitively repulsive, and appears to be a dead-end, but it's revealed to be stable and have a future. Everyone gets to survive and until something better gets figured out. And sentimental/dogmatic idiots can't fuck everything up because they're kept happy.

>>16819997
I cannot possibly be suffering from Stockholm's syndrome you dunce, I have no reference point. This life is all I have. I was never "free" and put into this "victimized, imprisoned state" we call human life. I have always been within this state; I think it can grow somewhat better, but it never has because we've always been the same imperfect humans. Transhumanism is like a religion, it's useless unless you're a virtuous person. The only difference is that the prize it offers is yawn-inducing and dehumanizing, albeit "empirically verified." Not everyone wishes to remain shackled to your empirical shahadas, some wish to go beyond, to folly, to faith, to transcendence.

You have already become a transhumanist, congratulations. You are a robot that can only repeat the same idea- "you are in a prison, and I believe that science will show me the way out." The same science that built you your prison. I guess you can't wait for the next update

>>16820001
>Is this a fight you can win in your lifetime?
No but this lifetime is a consequence of accumulated desires, most of which were unguided. Even if I die, the gravy train keeps on going and it needs to be steered correctly

>>16819926
Hedonism is not a philosophy, it is science since it is observably real and has applications attached to reality

If it is useful, it is not philosophy, philosophy is muddled in fictional ideas of making human values matter in a material universe, to be perfectly honest

>>16820004
I haven't read Kant nor do I care. We chase pleasure, but not all pleasures are made equal.

>>16820017
Godspeed, brother.

>>16820023
That's not what I am. But everyone in this world is made to worship the natural world as the highest value. My highest value is love which the natural world is opposed to. That means I don't believe anything even physics will stay the way it is for much longer. I am not transhumanist I am pro-human. I want to finally be human what I really am inside. This is an inhuman world created by an inhuman god.

>>16820017
>The problem is you can't imagine separating negative habitual patterns with "human nature".
No, the problem is that you view what you cannot understand as negative. That they're negative to you in your current understanding doesn't mean they are negative to humanity as a whole. You are not the center of the universe.
> I value empathy, love, care, compassion as my human nature, but I don't worship inane concepts like "human nature" which are not real.
You say those words but your posts show you do not know what they mean. Just because you can't imagine human nature to be real doesn't mean it isn't.
>To know yourself is to be the author of yourself
You cannot know yourself if you deny human nature. Human nature is a part of what you are.
>much of what is only originated as a consequence of circumstance rather than pure divine consciousness manifesting the kingdom of God which is what I advocate for.
Are you saying who you are is down to circumstance? If so, let's agree to disagree, my young friend. If not, then I'm sorry I misread you. Tell me, where do you get your concept/idea of god from?

>>16818720
I like a shit life far more than anyone likes their cute life

>>16820043
The world is sleeping, love is the divine light.

>>16820033
i'm generation Y but have no idea who Y or Z are

>>16820052
You have a half witted understanding of the world and it's circumstances, SAD!

>>16820061
You're projecting again, kiddo.

>>16820031
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism
invent a word if you want, you are using a basic philosophical statement. my god.

>>16820062
No you're a moron, what you consider human nature is not real. "good for humanity" is subjective and dependent upon external circumstances which influence what it is humanity should become.

>>16820065
Again, hedonism is factual, it's not philosophy
Valuetards can't accept there's no meaning to life or they'll go insane, read up Hume, Huxley and Kant's thesis with real profound enlightenment of the godless age, and you'll see that they are madmen clinging to this arbitrary idea that somehow there is a space unicorn giving them value.

>>16820053
battered housewives grow comfortable being beaten and abused, your point? you don't have one, other than being a freakazoid

>>16820077
Once again, just because you can't understand it doesn't mean it's not real. Good for humanity is not dependent on external circumstances, good for humanity is life according to nature's laws of harmony and order. Which we are currently very far away from admittedly.
>what it is humanity should become.
Humanity should become nothing else than it has ever been.
I still want to know what you base your concept/idea of god on if I'm apparently so wrong in my assessment.

>>16820085
>there's no meaning to life
say pleasure is the meaning

>hedonism is not philosophy
its something the greeks talk about at the first baby steps of philosophy.

>>16820093
No they really don't those are fake housewives.

>>16820094
You keep appealing to nature but you have no understanding of nature, you're the dead being led by the dead into a ditch ad nauseam

>>16820102
You're projecting again.
Now please answer me, what do you base your concept/idea of god on if I'm apparently so wrong in my assessment.

>>16820095
>say pleasure is the meaning
Not necessarily, but everything in the human condition is either pain or pleasure, and God is becoming more and more nonsensical and a God of the Gaps because of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

>>16820112
My direct understanding and divine consciousness. I have fully realized desires

>>16820121
So you're just circlejerking with yourself? Got it. I thought you were just young and naive, but you're arrogant and retarded. Have a good one.

>>16820124
It's not circle jerking, I'm not the only person who realizes that shit if fucked and we can do something about it.

>>16820130
>It's not circle jerking
>My direct understanding and divine consciousness.
Really? You have no concept of what divine consciousness is except for what you pulled out of your ass.
>I'm not the only person who realizes that shit if fucked and we can do something about it.
Shit has always been fucked and there's things we can do about it, but transhumanism ain't it. What we can do is become true to our nature and live as close to harmony and divine order as possible. We humans can come closer to god, but not in the way you propose.

>>16820120
>Not necessarily
then what the fuck are you talking about?. hedonism is advocating for pleasure. what the fuck.
you can say everything is good or bad instead of pain or pleasure and you say the same in the end. you are playing the manichean game. and its pretty boring.

>>16820124
On another note what do you appeal to? You see accumulated shadows being cast, but you only interpret a distortion and believe that this distortion is all that there can be. You're not an awakened conscious person, you're caught up in machinations of the mind yet fail to realize the systemic underpinnings of natural phenomena and how they're molded by desire. Real natural law is that WE are God, that our consciousness is divinity and nature conforms to desire.

>>16820141
Atleast i don't try to ascribe made up ideas that contradict science to consciousness like many metaphysicists do, and especially theists, i am intellectually speaking, making less stretches.

>>16820146
You fell for the new age bullshit didn't you? You use a lot of buzzwords but I sincerely doubt you know what they mean.
>You're not an awakened conscious person
That's not something an awakened conscious person would say, so apparently neither are you.
>Real natural law is that WE are God, that our consciousness is divinity and nature conforms to desire.
We are not god. God is in us, and we are part of god, but we are not god. Our consciousness stems from divine consciousness but is not divine consciousness itself. Nature does not conform to desire, desire is a consequence of nature. You invert a lot my young friend. You are what the christians would call a satanist.
>On another note what do you appeal to?
You could call me someone who believes in the sophia perennis, though I have my own preferred expression of course.

>>16820163
not everything is a atheist vs theist game. you dumb down everything with that mindset.

>>16818684
Agreed. I actively seek out suffering to improve myself.

>>16820180
>You are what the christians would call a satanist.
I hope you understand that Christianity in the orthodox sense is an inversion of genuine natural law. The entire concept of bending the knee towards a superior authority is itself an inversion of divine consciousness.

>>16820199
You still don't seem to know what divine consciousness entails. It was a concept in many traditions long before you circlejerked it up. However, I have to agree that christianity is an inversion of genuine natural law as you put it, although you seem to misunderstand why. In fact I think all abrahamic/monotheistic currents are inversions by submitting to a single personified aspect of god. I simply used the example of satanism because it's the most well known. And no, an inversion of an inversion does not come round back again, it just makes it even worse.

>>16820188
It's noble to suffer for a greater cause, it's ass to the wall retarded to suffer for sufferings sake. Suffering doesn't improve you, but overcoming suffering can improve you because you learn to stop doing the thing that generates suffering.

>>16820228
No, overcoming suffering can improve you because you no longer suffer that which made you suffer in the past. Not because you stop doing the thing, but because the thing no longer makes you suffer if you do it.

>>16820223
No I understand where you're coming from, and I think you're a very dumb person. You enjoy bending the knee, because you've come to celebrate your own slavery and mediocrity. There's nothing inside of you but a husk of robotic flesh, as I put it earlier "the dead following the dead into a ditch ad nauseam". Your tough guy Odinist wank about the strong dominating the weak is a larp that nobody actually fully believes

>>16820233
Either that or your nerve endings just burn off

>>16820247
And a post like this is supposed to make me believe you are the enlightened one who has it all figured out? Don't make me laugh, kid. You're the one bending the knee to the corporate agenda because you've swallowed all their transhumanist propaganda yet won't dare admit it.
You keep projecting your own insecurities about mediocrity and slavery onto myself and others. Even if you were correct in what you said, which you aren't, you've only shown you're even worse yourself.

>>16820271
Bending over isn't enlightenment

>>16820275
Exactly, so why are you claiming you're enlightened while you're bending over?

>>16820278
I'm not I believe in human self determination, not medievalist bdsm

>>16820279
Yes you are, you're bending over to the big corporations and the global elite who want the kind of future you're envisioning. That alone should get you thinking. Have you read Julian Huxley?

>>16820283
I am the elite

>>16820286
Kek sure kiddo, you're funny I'll give you that

>>16820286
Me too bro

Only people who live in an almost permanent state of anhedonia, either due to childhood trauma, genetic factors, or some combination of both, are the kind of self-destructive adrenaline junkies who crave the gratuitous strife, noisy tumult, and arbitrary goals of life-as-a-game that is maladaptive in civilization, especially as it pertains to high culture, and succumb to depression most when all has gone well, that is too well for their taste. Perpetually at war with the world and in the world, numb to beauty, contrarian by habit, trollish in Ibsen's sense of the term, contemptuous of almost every kind of virtuosity except those of war, their ideal of success is making others fail. This is why they like to shit on the very banquets of sense that make people of a more amiable & playful disposition truly happy. They aim to destroy the very gardens that others, desiring them, plant, and deride the kind of lush and ornate music that further enhances heavenly or tranquil weather, if they notice it at all. And to the degree they have much to say about life in the moment, whether of a long and enormously digressive conversation with a friend in which almost anything or anyone under the sun may be minutely dished, or a nature-walk made to tune the ear in to sounds too minutely telling of what dwells there for the war-deaf to remember, or any of the countless nice things and sightly furnishings and poetically thoughtful arrangements that double as a forest of symbols to a man with the aptitude for reflection, they actively prefer the contrary--scenery and circumstances altogether more grim or violent or desolate--sans even the cleanliness of certain kinds of minimalism, or the sublime silliness of grotesques-a-go-go croaking round a pond, or the strange sumptuousness of an extreme contrast between a night of almost primordial wintriness on the other side of glass on a January night drive to see the stars, with the heat roaring--like an alien landing in the past, restfully assured he can return to the future at a moment's notice, pleased at makings so responsive to the will to live yet another day.
>>16820053
At least there is some candor here, and though a cute life like that of an gamma anime fan shrieking at a stadium happening with her kindred swarm (or for that matter spent wine-aunts with a brittle cackle) isn't much to rhapsodize about either, other qualities of life do exist.

>>16820286
Alright I'll humour you, then what is your take on what Julian Huxley envisioned regarding the new wine and old skins?

>>16820294
You are a based guy

>>16818623
Utopia is dystopia bro. It’s not possible without destroying human freedom

>>16820299
Bro I forgot, but I'm pretty sure he was alluding to humans becoming sims in order max out their stats

>>16820327
I'm disappointed in you kid, I really thought you were the transhumanist enlightened elite but apparently not.

>>16818709
underrated /mu/tant poster

>>16820354
Are you seriously trying to gaslight my on 4chan? What do you know?

>>16820370
I know it all.

>>16820378
Your the poser, I'm not. I don't give a lick about your secret knock knock jokes

How did you get so big?..

>>16820385
If you actually were the transhumanist enlightened elite then surely you would know about what Julian Huxley envisioned since he is one of the people who mapped it out, and especially in a thread about his brother Aldous's book which was partially based on Julian's ideas. But you are clueless to the fact that you've been spoonfed propaganda by those who wish to enslave you. I hope you wake up someday, kid, you deserve better.

>>16820310
Utopia - Thomas More
Island - Aldous Huxley

check those out they may enlighten you

>>16820398
The strain of thought precedes Huxley dude, it's not a formal secret club.

>>16820405
Of course but he's at the basis of the current ideas that guide our global "elite", his writings are seminal.

>>16820416
All of the ideas originate from human gnosis, everything that's been passed down through secret societies and circles throughout history is from the same source. Conspiracy theorists are not a part of the club because they're still asleep and believe in phantoms

>>16820429
Yes yes you've made it quite clear you're an excellent larper. Masonry or whatever secret club you think you're affiliated with is a scam and you've been duped.
>Conspiracy theorists are not a part of the club because they're still asleep and believe in phantoms
Oh the irony, it hurts.

>>16820442
>Masonry or whatever secret club you think you're affiliated with is a scam and you've been duped.
Masonry is a club for boomers poopers, but secret societies were legitimate during a time when knowledge was violently suppressed. The knowledge isn't spooky, it all originates from self knowledge aka gnosis.

>>16820459
>Masonry is a club for boomers poopers
If only it were
>secret societies were legitimate during a time when knowledge was violently suppressed
More legitimate, sure, but the ones in the west since the Renaissance have all been fake or subverted. The last true secret society were the original Masons who disappeared in the 15th century.
> The knowledge isn't spooky, it all originates from self knowledge aka gnosis.
You use these words but you don't know what they mean. The kind of self knowledge you refer to cannot be obtained without knowledge of the divine, where it originates from.

>>16820478
>The kind of self knowledge you refer to cannot be obtained without knowledge of the divine, where it originates from.
Dependant Origination

>>16820482
Sort of, but that's not what you were describing earlier.

>>16819759
You sound like a religious fanatic. You deal in absolutes just like them you insufferable faggot. The same modules going off in some religious zealots brain are the same going off in yours. You apply all these moral, "objective" principles to reality without any basis besides a shitty life and your own fallible conclusions of the writings/opinions of some men.
Rationalism for you is based solely on some dichotomy of pain and pleasure. Rationalism = there's only pain and pleasure. The final conclusion of scientific empiricism = there's only pain and pleasure. You're stuck in a dichotomy because of some kind of perception loop.

>>16819992
He’s right tho. Pleasure and pain cannot be fake themselves. They are in fact the realest shit.

>>16818623
Yes, it's perfect. Anybody saying otherwise is too spooked for his own good.

>>16818684
>A level of suffering, or rather adversity, is necessary to create a full and healthy human being.
Or, more appropriately, to overcome adversity and inflict suffering upon others.

>>16818623
Only terrorists would say it was not a utopia.

>>16821902
Some depressed individuals who need pain to live would call it not a utopia according to this thread's replies.
Honestly, whenever we reach the age of ethical nihilistic AI controlling everything, the AI should mercifully kill people who reject maximizing pleasure, they're a burden on society, not as productive, deluded by mae up "value", and decrease utility.

>>16822206
>Honestly, whenever we reach the age of ethical nihilistic AI controlling everything, the AI should mercifully kill people who reject maximizing pleasure, they're a burden on society, not as productive, deluded by mae up "value", and decrease utility.
I hate that it had to come down to this, but religious zealots will never stop fighting objective reality, i guess, and some people will just never accept true happiness.

>>16818623

>>16822280
Philosophertard cope, this is objectively the best and most pleasant time in history.

>>16822298
>just sit on your laurels goy. Regression is impossible, we're always moving in the direction of progress

>>16822298
>depression, mental illness, social isolation, wealth inequality, the "incel" phenomenon, low trust society, incredible fear of death (as shown by the lengths the governments went to, to avoid a particularly bad flu), increasing mutation load, societal instability, massive slave caste, class friction, a shitty upper class, industrial scale porn consumption, pollution
the only thing good about modern society is the technology, everything else is strictly inferior to most past societies. At least in the civilised world

>>16822420
>the only thing good about modern society is the technology
Technology and science alone can solve all the problems with that, simply put, the moment we can remove the brain's ability to feel suffering, there will be no more realistic possibility of "bad" lives

>>16818623
The problem with BNW isn't that it has no suffering; it does. People are genetically engineered to be a certain class, and its citizens are treated with increasing contempt the lower their class is. Moreover, people think that constantly being high alleviates suffering; it doesn't. People in this world, aside from the main cast, of course, can't form genuine relationships beyond those of hedonism, forming a sense a loneliness in the hearts of everyone. This isn't even mentioning how cultural activities beyond those provided by the state are gone. Everyone has a job according to their class and forms little identity.

>>16822680
>and its citizens are treated with increasing contempt the lower their class is.
Contempt and hate can be rewired out of the brain
>Moreover, people think that constantly being high alleviates suffering; it doesn't.
But removing the amygdala does
>People in this world, aside from the main cast, of course, can't form genuine relationships beyond those of hedonism
A relationship without a positive exchange of pleasure is toxic
>forming a sense a loneliness in the hearts of everyone.
Loneliness can also be removed with surgery
>This isn't even mentioning how cultural activities beyond those provided by the state are gone. Everyone has a job according to their class and forms little identity.
Culture is suboptimal

>>16822443
>Technology and science alone can solve all the problems with that
>laughs in Kaczynski

>>16822730
>Contempt and hate can be rewired out of the brain
So why don't they? Because they realize that if they did, people would feel pity for the subhumans and the genetically enforced caste system would abolished.
>But removing the amygdala does
Removing your amygdala will lead to lots of deaths because people would have no fear response.
>A relationship without a positive exchange of pleasure is toxic
Pleasure comes from other sources other than using the other person's body as a sex toy, coomer
>Loneliness can also be removed with surgery
No
>Culture is suboptimal
Yeah man is just a biological automaton that only needs abundant material conditions to be happy. Literal NPC tier thinking.

>>16822298
Every single concept in that graph except is a fucking meme. Poverty doesn't make someone necessarily miserable. Literacy, education, democracy are worth nothing if they're used as tools to control people. Preventing diseases and death has created absurd levels of overpopulation. Why do so many people who live in these better conditions kill themselves?

>>16822730
Do you, perhaps, find the Laputians to be an ideal society?

>>16822298
>56% of the world population lives in democracy
Yeah, I'm not sure that most Western democracies are inherently good.

>>16819020
Isn’t this sorta the out line of Camus’ Myth of Sisyphus? Is this the absurd struggle? Movement for its own sake?

>>16822730
>Contempt and hate can be rewired out of the brain
First you have to rewire the world to make the aforementioned rewiring conducive to life and survival

>But removing the amygdala does
Why not remove the whole damn brain, at this point? Once again, this will lead to negative consequences and dehumanization.

>A relationship without a positive exchange of pleasure is toxic
You can derive pleasure from an unrequited relationship due to a promise of pleasure. Besides, who cares if it is "toxic" if it is what one desires? Thereby one fulfills one's desire, because that relationship gives one pleasure.

>Loneliness can also be removed with surgery
Man is a very fine-tuned instrument; decalibrate it and remove certain "arbitrary" or "negative" parts, and you will have a creature in disequilibrium. All of the king's men and all of the pills and board-approved palliative pills won't put you back together. Science doesn't have a 100% success rate. What else are you "removing with surgery?"

>Culture is suboptimal
We can remove that style of thinking with surgery.

>>16822443
Technology and science can't even solve the problems they create, you think they can take away the entirety of humanity's pain? Use induction

>>16822298
>democracy
>a lie
>vaccination as a vector for gov't goop
>literacy and basic education as a vector for propaganda
Otherwise it's fine, but that anon is right. They keep talking to us about the "science enlightenment" and "all these things science will do us for in the future." You'd think these people live in Star Trek, not the real world. And in reality, science always falls short. Always.

>>16822260
You are a religious zealot
>Accept Jesus Christ into your heart so you can be saved and go to Heaven
>Accept AI into your heart so you can feel maximum pleasure and go to utopia
It's just that utopias can only exist in an otherworld, not in this corrupt place.

>>16822206
>increase utility
For what reason?

>ethical nihilistic AI controlling everything
If the AI is so intelligent, what makes you think it will share your beliefs? Or that it won't kill you, instead? What if the AI is a scientific myth the powers that be made up to make you think that there's an "all-knowing intelligence" telling us to get vasectomies and vaccines. Anyone who doesn't religiously follow the orders of the AI-god are ostracized and forcefully vaccinated and snipped. Now, do you start seeing why those against you aren't just "some depressed individuals," but the entirety of humanity that values agency and freedom?

>>16821902
That's the best you have?

>>16820637
Based religious fanatics. But not all objects deserve fanaticism, especially not science.

>>16820279
Human self determination as you conceive it leads to medievalist bdsm. We become mindless machines strapped to constant pleasure. You give up your freedom for the sake of eternal pleasure. That's what BDSM is.

There's no need for freedom once you have pleasure

>>16819186
>Transhumanism is manmade evolution, but there's no real pressure to evolve in the direction that transhumanists propose- that is, removing pain.
>The goal is to abolish everything that makes us human. This is "evolution." Evolution towards shit, that nobody sane desires.
Do you think it follows the correct evolutionary path is the opposite of that? Embracing human nature, accepting our place in the natural order, making ourselves better naturally through successive generations. Tradition, basically.

>>16820223
The way I see it, your faith is an inversion of the truth. Either way, all aspects can be subsumed under one God. I don't see the earth-shattering, direct consequences of monotheism you seem to be seeing.

>>16820199
Christianity posits that man is fallen, so man "bends his knee" to return to a state of greater glory. By "bends his knee," I mean follows the laws set by a wiser God so that he can complete his divinity, become fully human.

>>16820146
We are made in the image of God, if we were gods then nature would truly conform to our desire and not thwart us at every turn. You seem terribly disconnected from the reality of things, yet insist on calling my belief an "inversion of nature." Our consciousness is divinity? Why grow, then? Nature conforms to desire? Why do we fail so consistently at subjugating it?

>>16820120
All laws of nature are arbitrary and crumble when the question "why" is posed to them. Why is there a 2nd law of thermodynamics? Can it be proven if all we have as evidence is the immediate world we have analyzed? Everything's just a "happy accident, right? Infinitely large cosmos that cannot be proven, only inferred. Eternal matter and energy that cannot be proven. Alternate universes that cannot be proven. Reductionism is insecurity, everything is accidental and coincidental, and God is made obsolete not by science but by generational amnesia. So go tune in to the NASA Livestream. Go buy a PS5. Science has it all figured out, forget every time it's been wrong.

Forget the God of the Gaps, science is ushering in a God of the Accidents.

>>16820085
"Read up" is a confession of laziness. Summarize their arguments here, if you even understood what they were saying.

>>16820043
Yes, but you confuse the steward of this world for the creator. The Demiurge is Satan, Yahweh is the Monad.

>>16818948
Americans are going to find out what true suffering is in 2021 mark my words. The shitshow is just getting started. Maybe afterwards they can write about.

>>16823180
>Embracing human nature, accepting our place in the natural order
It seems that you are creating your place in the natural order, not accepting it. Otherwise, you would be content with the niche nature has offered us. We will "make ourselves better," but that is naively assuming that mankind is of one mind, or that those in power care about your wishy washy ideals.

So, in reality, we will evolve to be slaves. In transhumanist dreams, we will be purposeless, because we will have already achieved maximum pleasure. From that point on, we're just waiting for disaster, which will come. Disaster comes to every Tower of Babel. Always has

>>16823143
>You are a religious zealot
>>Accept Jesus Christ into your heart so you can be saved and go to Heaven
>>Accept AI into your heart so you can feel maximum pleasure and go to utopia
>It's just that utopias can only exist in an otherworld, not in this corrupt place.

>If the AI is so intelligent, what makes you think it will share your beliefs? Or that it won't kill you, instead? What if the AI is a scientific myth the powers that be made up to make you think that there's an "all-knowing intelligence" telling us to get vasectomies and vaccines. Anyone who doesn't religiously follow the orders of the AI-god are ostracized and forcefully vaccinated and snipped. Now, do you start seeing why those against you aren't just "some depressed individuals," but the entirety of humanity that values agency and freedom?

Hedonistic technocracy worshippers are literal lunatics and their arguments effortlessly destroyed by the "Utility Monster" counterargument.

>>16818623
It's a utopia but not for human beings.

>>16818684
>A level of suffering, or rather adversity, is necessary to create a full and healthy human being.
Fuck off with this Facebook-tier philosophy. There is a reason why we aren't living in mudhuts and hunting our own food like niggers, it's because humans, hell, every living being actively seeks to minimize effort and suffering. Why don't you strip off all your clothes and run into the woods if you want to face adversity.

>>16823464
What a mongoloid view; you think that "a level of suffering" means casting aside ALL technology? You only see black and white, and your arguments suffer for this reason. No, acknowledging that I do not want a tyrant-AI controlling all of my actions to enact some vague "maximum pleasure" that probably involves thinly-veiled enslavement and dehumanization does not mean I don't want clothes, tools, or a home. Complain about Facebook-tier philosophies, but don't create these idiotic false dichotomies.

>every living being seeks to minimize effort and suffering
I agree, but we will never truly minimize or remove effort and suffering. Even if, through some inhuman effort of science, we actually accomplish this, something will go wrong eventually. But I heavily doubt we'll even get as far as abolishing suffering (and thus humanity). You have a mind full of "Promethean" and "ascending" ideologies, but who are your Prometheuses? Who is going to lead us to this world of minimal suffering?

I think this is truly the era that Buddhism defines as mappō. I think in no other time humanity has ever been rooted so deep into the passions that Buddhism warns against.

Why are there so many bugmen on /lit/?