/lit/ - Literature

>>16814631
show us your writing, op

what happens if you criticize someone in a polite way, other than risk looking like a snob?

>>16814631
You can find something nice to say about almost anything, even if it's only one very small part of it. At worst, just make comments that show you've taken an interest in the piece, without betraying how bad you think it is. For example: "it reminds me a bit of X" if you think they're trying to establish the same mood as X. You don't need to say that X succeeds where they fail miserably.

>>16814631
Just say “I found your text interesting in that” then just let your critiques of it being dogshit flow from that all while hiding the language in you “finding it interesting”. I found it interesting that all these misplaced commas and incomplete clauses is supposed to represent the consciousness of the character. Or just don’t be a pussy and tell them why it’s dogshit. Creative writing is just a cesspit of mediocre white women writing absolute trash

>>16814631
This is the reason i don’t join writing groups.

>>16814631
the trick is to offer advice on how to fix it instead of offering an opinion

>>16814676
>Creative writing is just a cesspit of mediocre white women writing absolute trash
please tell us more

>>16814631
do the sandwich-ing.

STRONG POINT - WEAK POINT - STRONG POINT

>>16814631
Had the most embarrassing experience once where I genuinely thought a piece was some of the worst shit I had ever read, and of course the prof calls on me specifically to say something I liked about it. I was also the first person called on, so I couldn't respond to what anybody else had said about it. I literally sat there silently for a long moment where everyone looked uncomfortable, and then I said something exceptionally damning like "I don't want to say there isn't anything I like about it, because that's not true" and then continued to be silent. I think I eventually said something about liking the fast pace of the story. After that I always came prepared with at least one simple statement of praise regardless of what I thought.

>>16816283
What was the reaction

>>16816288
Prof took whatever I said and went with it, basically acting like nothing had happened. He was a young guy who was actually pretty good at making sure writing workshops didn't go horribly off the rails, although he did have to frequently turn people away from talking about Star Wars.

>>16816288
Also I felt really bad about it. I hadn't wanted to trash the guy but being caught off guard and required to compliment it made me sound so much meaner than if I had just been asked to critique it. Pretty sure the writer hated me, all the written critiques I got from him were pretty harsh lol.

>>16816340
Yeah that happens. If you rub someone the wrong way, they get bitchy in the feedback. I don't mind it though

>>16814631
You can compliment while implying it's dogshit.

>N-nice prose!
>"THANKS ANON I WANT TO BE AN AUTHOR DID YOU READ MUCH AS A KID I DID I READ EVERY DAY I HAVE READ 5000 BOOKS MY FAVOURITE AUTHOR IS STEPHEN KING I LO-"
English classes in uni were such a disappointment.

>>16814676
I'd bang those women

>>16814676
>Creative writing is just a cesspit of mediocre white women writing absolute trash
This can be extrapolated to 9/10 students in humanities courses. I only found like two interesting people in my entire 4 years of uni (/his/). Unless you NEED it for a SPECIFIC job you should avoid uni like the plague. Absolute dogshit.

>>16816916
In what way were they interesting

>>16814631
>fake compliments
The exercise is twofold. The first we all know: give criticism and advice. Hopefully said criticism and advice is based on what you think or know the goals of the text are, but even audience reaction can be useful. The second never seems to get play in these threads: you have to see beyond the draft. Take your knowledge of the text's purpose and consider its ideal form. What could you like about that? Those can be your compliments. Beyond that, finding something small to enjoy in the worst writing shouldn't be that hard. Concise dialogue, bizarre and wonderful descriptions, an interesting premise or setting, do some work to find the good instead of just shutting your brain off at the first thing you dislike.

>>16814666
>without betraying how bad you think it is
Every knew writer needs to learn that they'll write terrible things that nevertheless could have merit in a revised form. Every somewhat seasoned workshop attendee should have an idea when they've submitted something that could've been better. That said, I agree that anyone doing a critique should be able to find something positive to say. Failing that is only really failing yourself, since if you can't find anything positive in an otherwise shitty draft from another, you likely won't be able to see what's working in your own writing.

>>16814631
>have to make up fake compliments when it's dogshit
Why? I had to do plenty of peer feedback in undergrad. The point is to give and get constructive criticism. Save your fake compliments and give them something that will make their paper better. Anyone well adjusted will not only not get offended, but will appreciate it.

>>16816340
It seems weird that the instructor wouldn't make you come prepared with commentary. Any workshop I've been in required about 500 written words of praise, criticism, and advice (sometimes with a bit of elaboration on what you thought the story was trying to accomplish). That said, it's doubly weird that you wouldn't come to class prepared with your marginalia, even if the instructor hadn't prompted you with an assignment. I almost get the feeling that a lot of /lit/ with workshop or peer-editing experience go into the situation hoping to hate everything.

>>16817124
Giving constructive criticism is also an excellent tool to build in pursuit of bettering your own writing, so even if someone gets offended, if you critiqued earnestly, with an eye toward improving the work, then you've likely still had a positive impact on yourself.

I never, ever took peer review seriously, ignored all peer commentary, and always scored well regardless of what my "peers" had to say. Fuck peer review.

That said, I make my students in English comp do peer review because I think it's funny.

>>16816628
Which university did you attend?

>>16817064
I liked them mainly because they were self-aware, something that is so tragically rare amongst 18-22 year olds. That and they were kind of autistic and cynical, meaning they didn't jump onboard trends and never bucked to social pressures. They weren't complete degenerates either. Ye we would go to the pub and suck back a few pints, a few darts, smoke a bowl or whatever but they didn't make being drunk faggots their identity. Well-read and avoided twitter politics. One philosophy major and one history major. Bang on lads.
>>16817313
A major university in western Canada.

>>16814631
don't

>be me
>have a very weird style of writing emails where it's overly formal but emotional, argumentative but also apologetic; where I deliberate and justify the things I'm saying, sometimes mentioning how what I'm saying is shameful but then claiming it's justified. I usually apologize at the end of the email as well and do things like "do not assume" and "perhaps this might seem"—the whole email comes off as extremely manic
>email professor about something
>in their response they link the Uni's mental health support page and make an aside to seek support if I need it
>email another professor during the weekend
>"I am exceptionally responding to you out of hours and on the weekend, as you are evidently concerned and upset. [...]"
Do I just emit mental illness?

>>16817562
Just use the grammarly and google mail suggestions, only write half of the sentences and let autocomplete finish it.
Itll come off as robotic and formal

>>16817562
I love you.

>>16814631
Tell them it's dogshit, you coward.

None of you guys know how to give good criticism. You basically praise them on big picture and vague ideas, and then sprinkle that throughout while mixing in actual concrete fixes that need to be made.

>>16814634
>PYW
hehe this is familiar

>>16817562
You're forming a bad habit tbqh. If you send an email like that at work, the recipient is going to fucking hate you and probably ignore your message. Emails should generally be short and to the point, people don't want to spend 20 mins reading thru their morning emails. It's something I realized after getting nasty responses to some of my more verbose emails my first year in the office.

>>16818359
>dude just waste a bunch of time so you don't hurt anybodies feelings

one of the big problems with university settings honestly.

>>16814631
Especially when each paragraph is divided into 3 run-on sentences.

>>16817562
How is this a bad thing?

>>16814631
>peer feedback writing class
What level of education?

>>16818530
>bait
They make you do this in University.

>>16818561
I don't know about this...

>>16817128
I had indeed already written a response to the piece that I submitted. My "marginalia" did not contain praise. It was unusual for the instructor to call on a random person to praise a piece, the usual procedure was to open the floor for people to discuss what they liked. The fact that nobody said anything and I got randomly selected speaks to the piece, unfortunately.

>>16814631
>have to make up fake compliments when it's dogshit
"good effort, keep trying"

>>16818574
Maybe he just wrote it weird but in all my University-level English classes we had forced peer review sessions.

>>16818585
Weird, we are always made to write on our own. If we ever have trouble, reaching out to the library's writing tutor department is the only option.

>>16817562
AAAAAAAAAAAAA
Sometimes I send cold mail to people and start conversations with them and I do something similar. The more I care about the person's opinion the more unhinged the final email looks. I think it's all about wringing sentences over and over out of fear. I can write a short, formal email but when I have to ask someone about something that I'm attached to personally, whether it is a review of my work or opinions on things I am emotionally invested about, I just start dropping spaghetti all over the keyboard. It's like a bunch of concerns overlap like
>I don't want him to think I'm kissing his ass, am I being too formal?
>Will he think I'm a schizo if I say this? This statement is kind of bold, so I'll tell him I know it is sort of weird in a self-deprecating way but not too much.
Etc. I always get these formal replies that radiate irritation and clearly read between the lines as "who the fuck are you and what do you want?"

The major flaw of the writing workshops I participated in are that they are workshops focused on writing. The obsession with "craft" among university creative writing majors occludes a very real issue: not all ideas have equal merit, and no amount of dressing up weak ideas with the tips'n'tricks you learned about structure, pov, and diction are going to make a vapid piece worth reading.

>>16818657
Same thing in visual arts.

>>16814631
This is why prof's should make feedback anonymous. Seriously, that would make shit so much more genuine and interesting. I've been in workshops for about a year and the best feedback I've gotten has come from /lit/... yeah it's sad

>>16818705
>This is why prof's should make feedback anonymous
If university humanities courses were really about educating then they'd do this. It's just young adult daycare at this point.

>>16817602
Why did you say this?
>>16817578
>>16818408
It is kind of fun to write but yeah, when I think about what I've said I cannot recall imagine a normal person saying the things I'm saying
>>16818645
Honestly anon this sounds so much like me I wonder if there's a neurological/psychological pattern to be spotted. At first I start purely professional and formal, but as I email them more I stay formal in style but it's hardly professional.
>>Will he think I'm a schizo if I say this? This statement is kind of bold, so I'll tell him I know it is sort of weird in a self-deprecating way but not too much.
I do EXACTLY this, let me get an excerpt from the last email I sent. Here, this was a 3 paragraph long email about some good news I had received from my professor after getting some help from them:
>"This email has been good news and I appreciate the support you've been giving me. I apologize for how excessive my emails are and if my etiquette is improper. Please don't think I'm normally so eccentric, I've most likely been rendered a little manic by stress. Apologies if I had caused you worry to such an extent that you felt linking the wellbeing page was imperative; I will try to be a little more measured in the future. I hope this email finds you well. Kindest regards."
My grammar is a bit fucky because I had been writing this email for more than half an hour and stopped caring about proofreading. I don't get irritated replies I mostly get concerned ones, like I'm eliciting pity or they're telling me I shouldn't apologize. Needless to say, schizo tier. It makes me feel guilty because my professors have been very nice to me and don't deserve dealing such autism

>>16817562
IT'S TIME TO FUCK YOUR ASS!!! YOU SUCK!!!!!!

>>16818754
Oh I forgot to mention that I had another paragraph all about the mental wellness page, telling them I wasn't going to kill myself because it would contradictory ect ect. Thankfully I had the awareness to know that would be turbo deranged to talk about

tfw just had class critique, tfw OP is talking about my paper

>>16818754
This could have been written by me, but I'm more restrained with feelings and I avoid all emotional vocabulary like mentioning I'm stressed because I perceive that as self-pitying. I would say something self-deprecating instead, which is self-pity anyway but ironic, like someone's attempt at a humorous remark before jumping out of the window in shame.
My direction is generally that I start going on these long-winded ramblings that are densely packed with repressed emotions and they're honestly kind of cringe. When I read the e-mails back I feel like I subsconsciously step onto a pulpit with Yorick's skull in my hand and start monologuing about shit that the other person doesn't care about in the least, and my final point is usually something mundane such as "do you think this can sell?"
I suffer from extreme anxiety and social phobia and I know that this happens because of fear of ridicule. By adding self-deprecation, exposition and other dressing to my maybe slightly eccentric point I am protecting yourself from being ridiculed. My mail to people I do not have any "stakes" in are plain and to the point.

>>16818837
I meant to say "protecting myself"

>>16818754
Are you asking for recommendations on how to write emails to professors? You seem to know what you're doing wrong, apply it then.

>>16818837
>but I'm more restrained with feelings and I avoid all emotional vocabulary like mentioning I'm stressed because I perceive that as self-pitying.
I normally am but the matter at hand was related. This isn't just my professors, it's like an "academic mentor"
>I suffer from extreme anxiety and social phobia
That's a pattern, I didn't leave my room for the first week of uni and almost starved to death. I still haven't even spoken to my dorm mates, who, when they first caught me filling my kettle in the kitchen, where confused at first and when I told them who I was they were like "OMG you're the new guy, my friend saw you moving in but then no one saw you since". The next day I heard her knocking on my door and I pretended I was asleep and stayed dead quiet until she left. I think I write those emails like that because I feel what I'm asking for will make a bad impression so I need to dress it up as much as I can, but then I have to make sure it doesn't seem like I want sympathy. So I end up with this weird balancing act of what I'm trying to say, trying to explain why I'm saying, explain why I have to explain. It's probably a result of my EXTREME ADHD where I struggle to filter or control myself. Every time I act strangely, even in complete privacy I debate with myself without its an act for attention or genuine. Am I fucking nutcase or do I just want to be?
>>16818889
>if you know what you're doing wrong, why don't you stop it
I'm mentally ill moron. I've pretty much accepted I'm going to live hated and disliked because I'm chronically unlikable. I'm not mean or malicious, I'm just unintentionally annoying but also boring.

>>16818359
Nice comic from...2008?

>>16819068
>I'm mentally ill moron.

I also have "extreme anxiety and social phobias." In my third year of uni right now. Usually I spend each day without seeing another human being because I'm in a one-man apartment. My entire life's been a strange tightrope walk from not giving a fuck about other's opinions and being outwardly eccentric and clownish to isolating myself every day and going out on long walks at night or on the railroad tracks during the day, where no one goes.

You're "mentally ill" is a poor excuse. You are weak, and I am, too. Otherwise you'd change what you hate. I guess life's got both of us down

>>16814818
Idiot. Women don't want advice on how to fix their problems. They want you to let them play the eternal victim.

>>16818754
you sound like a woman on the verge of a breakdown
all you need is a few forces hahas and maybe a laughing with tears emoji

>>16819121
I wasn't call you a moron btw. I mean to say "I'm a mentally moron". I also wasn't referring to anxiety. My life has been going from the precipice of success but always being met with failure—I don't think there's been a single moment of triumph in my life. Mental illness isn't an excuse, it's the truth. Try as I have I cannot change the core of my person—thus the nature of my life is inescapable. However, it is this cruelty I have found ultimate resolve: By living I am revolting against the anguish of my life, I defy the conclusion of my circumstances. I used to advocate the "you can change if you believe" but there's neurological make up that have set themselves in your character. I can try remedy my problems and go back to stacking cards and reaching that precipice again—and I will, I can't submit to failure now—but the wind always blows. I am not weak, I am flawed. My flaws, the boulder I push, ever humbles me and allows me to speak with authority when I say "You can only change yourself if it is in yourself to change." Don't think my understanding of my static flaws means I do not try to change them—as contradictory as it sounds—because even when met with ultimate failure, even when caused by the same thing as the last one, I pick up the pieces and I tell myself "next time, I'll be better, next time will be different" for that is my character, my salvation. I'm a man who's never won but in my heart I feel victory is waiting for me; but this is a delusion that is only dispelled in moments of clarity. I will be one step away from glory and I will squander it and set it all alight, but next time, it'll be different, next time I will aim lower and expect less but do more, the me of now is different from the me of earlier. I walk along the beach at night to listen to the waves and I speak to no one. I don't know if I need friends but I do know I need something to sustain my pride—a single undoubtable victory, just one triumph and I would be fulfilled and content. Every failure, my ambition for what constitutes success lowers but even after aiming lower I again undershoot. If desired excellence I would meet mediocrity, if I come to terms with accepting mediocrity, I will be met with deficiency. A day will come that my ambition—what I consider a triumph—would be to simply be alive. And that would be the moment I die.

>>16819068
>Am I fucking nutcase or do I just want to be?
No, you're just anxious in a time of major stress for everyone and (if the pattern is like mine) you fundamentally don't trust people and you're afraid of them stabbing you while you're at the most vulnerable. I generally do better when I take a second to sober up and repeat to myself that I only have to be sober and honest, and in case the other person misunderstands I can explain myself. Recently I've been completely mismanaging things and I'm on the verge of feeling sick during routine social tasks that are made less predictable by the Corona procedures, especially if I am the only person with no observable example nearby. But it's literally all pent-up stress. If I am more relaxed all this stuff melts away. If I have a girlfriend I become an easy, sharp person overnight.

Be sincere but also polite. Don't claim that your criticism is objective. Be constructive. Make clear that you are trying to give helpful feedback.