/lit/ - Literature

*laser sounds*

Why did the Zen buddhists into art when the other strains seem scarcely concerned with it?

>>16808074
Probably cause of the Taoist influence.
Is there any religion more based than Zen? Combining the positives of two pretty great religions and dropping most of the baggage?
We really just need a fusion between Zen and Abrahamic mystic tradition (Sufism/monasticism/etc), again dropping the baggage, and we'll have damn near a perfected spiritual science.
Huxley laid the groundwork with Perennial Philosophy but someone needs to get the ball rolling on an actual religion of it.

>>16808189
give me a 10 point program right now

>>16808503

>>16808074
Other forms of Buddhism have tons of art. If you're asking why Zen MONKS do art, that's part of a particularity of Zen. Zen is concerned with doing rather than thinking. This characterizes all of Buddhism, but Zen takes it up a few more notches. Art is a form of meditation, in short.
>When unenlightened
>Chop wood, carry water
>When enlightened,
>Chop wood, carry water

I agree with >>16808189's assessment that it's a Taoist influence. Koans are too, although Zen Koans have a distinct answer (even if bizarre), whereas the Taoist equivalent of koan practice (I forget the proper term) asks questions that literally have no answer (you can't give a conceptual answer AT ALL, it HAS to be a non-conceptual answer).

>>16808189
>We really just need a fusion between Zen and Abrahamic mystic tradition (Sufism/monasticism/etc), again dropping the baggage, and we'll have damn near a perfected spiritual science.
I'm not sure Zen is reconcilable with Abrahamic faith

>The knife does not cut itself, the finger does not touch itself, the mind does not know itself, the eye does not see itself. This is true reality.

>>16810127
Zen buddhists roll in their non-graves as hyperintelligent 4chin poster refutes the lot of their philosophy by the posting of a single image.

>>16810182
Nani? Zen is not Zen Buddhism BTW. Zen Buddhism is Dogen's adaptation of Zen which he brought to Japan.

We are sure that we can realize the celestial bliss in this very world, if we keep alive the Enlightened Consciousness, of which Bodhidharma and his followers showed the example. 'All the worlds in ten directions are Buddha's Holy Lands!' That Land of Bliss and Glory exists above us, under us, around us, within us, without us, if we open our eyes to see. 'Nirvana is in life itself,' if we enjoy it with admiration and love. "Life and death are the life of Buddha," says Do-gen. Everywhere the Elysian gates stand open, if we do not shut them up by ourselves. Shall we starve ourselves refusing to accept the rich bounty which the Blessed Life offers to us? Shall we perish in the darkness of scepticism, shutting our eyes to the light of Tathagata? Shall we suffer from innumerable pains in the self-created hell where remorse, jealousy, and hatred feed the fire of anger? Let us pray to Buddha, not in word only, but in the deed of generosity and tolerance, in the character noble and loving, and in the personality sublime and good. Let us pray to Buddha to save us from the hell of greed and folly, to deliver us from the thraldom of temptation. Let us 'enter the Holy of Holies in admiration and wonder.'
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/rosa/rosa08.htm

>>16807980
Buddhism seems really cool and all until you realize it's just another cliche religion with gods and a flat Earth cosmology.

>>16810257
Stare at the image and the quote you posted for long enough and you might get it. The point is fairly profound desu
>Zen is not Zen Buddhism BTW
What're the core ideas of namebrand Zen, then? Most I've read on the topic is Watts and some Koans so my I suspect that my idea of Zen might be pretty intermingled with the other eastern traditions.

>>16810338
Zen originally came from Bodhidharma when he went to China. The official lineage ended with Huineng. One of Huineng's students started his own school, which Dogen was eventually part of. Dogen then brought these ideas to Japan and called them Zen Buddhism. There are similarities between the two, but that's like saying there's similarities between Catholicism and Protestantism. For instance, Zen Buddhism places heavy emphasis on meditation, while Zen says that meditation is not that important.
>You should simply step back and study through total expe
rience. How do you step back? I am not telling you to sit on a
bench with your eyes closed, rigidly suppressing body and mind,
like earth or wood. That will never have any usefulness, even in
a million years.
- Foyan

>>16810385
I messed up that quote, currently phone posting.

>>16810338
>The finger does not touch itself.
The meaning is more like the tip of the finger does not touch itself. Sure you can bend your finger around, but that's not the point. The side of your finger is not the tip of your finger.

>>16810385
So it's not as much a theological dispute as it is methodological? The end goal is some sort of release like nirvana in both, isn't it?

>>16810406
The point is not the point, that's the point of the image I posted. The finger does touch itself. Sorry to tell you but you're not just there yet. If you know, you know.

>>16807980

>>16810446
>methodological dispute
That sounds mostly right to me. However, Zen Buddhism is focused on Nirvana, while Zen is focused on "seeing your true nature". Those might mean the same thing.
>I'm not there yet
From my point of view, there's nowhere to go. As long as I keep chasing some Nirvana or supreme understanding or Enlightenment, etc, there will be Dukkha. If I stop chasing, there is no Dukkha.

>>16810692
>If I stop chasing, there is no Dukkha.
"There is something in each of you that you will only be able to perceive when you turn around. So how does one turn around? By nonseeking seeking, seeking without seeking. This is precisely what people find hard to deal with or get into. How can you seek if you are not seeking? How can you not seek if you are seeking? If you only seek, how is that different from pursuing sounds and chasing forms? If you do not seek at all, how are you different from inert matter?"

>>16808697
That's good cause neither is Abrahamic mysticism.
Im being flippant, but really the good bit to me is the dwelling on love and unity and using that to reach spiritual places, as opposed to Zen which dwells on non-attachmemt. I think drawing from both would be ideal.
Don't give a shit about the theology, and the best mystics reach the same conclusion.

>>16808557
doing a thought is thinking

>>16810958
That nonattachment is pivotal in reaching the same 'love and unity' you mention. The problem is using these terms as targets to aim for, in which case you'll surely miss the actual target-in-itself. Heart sutra distills this quite nicely 'form is emptiness, emptiness is form'. Hell, even the bible mentions this by way of Philippians 2:7 "rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."

>>16811014
>rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness
That's a big fucking stretch. You can make the claim about ecclesiastes, but not the NT.

>>16811018
How is it a stretch? What do you think it means by 'he made himself nothing'? Taking a fat shit?

>>16810385
Meditation is generally overrated. It seems to me that you can meditate anywhere and I often do, simply by closing my eyes and turning inward. Yet I prefer to simply contemplate and work nature to achieve real peace and calm.

>>16808189
Read Guenon ffs you utter midwit.

>>16810958
I think a lot of the good you can find in Zen is also found in some Christian mystics, like Master Eckhart. Also Thomas a Kempis. And also in sufism.

I got turned off a while ago by some things in Buddhism. The emptiness thing. It's no good for me.

>>16808189
>>16808697
In Pure Land Buddhism there is an approach to monotheism, a notion of an 'Infinite One who is Buddha' distinct from Gautama.

11. The glory of the Infinite is boundless, therefore is He known as the Buddha of Light Past Comprehension.
All the Buddhas glorify the majesty of His holiness that leadeth all the earth into His Kingdom.
12. His clear shining transcendeth all revelation, nor can human speech utter it. Therefore is He named the Buddha of Light Unspeakable.
All the Buddhas glorify the glory of the Infinite One who is Buddha through His promise of Light immeasurable.
13. Take refuge in Him who is Holiest of Holy. Sun and moon are lost in the ocean of His splendour. Therefore is He named that Infinite in whose radiance Sun and Moon are darkened. Before whose Divine Power even that Buddha made flesh in India himself faltereth in ascribing praise to the Majesty of His true glory.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bups/bups03.htm

>dual cultivation of Zen and Pure Land
>If one combines Zen and Pure Land, he is like a horned tiger. A teacher in this world, in a next life he becomes a Buddha
https://buddhisttemple.ca/zen-and-pure-land-a-most-amazing-cultivation-approach/

>>16811961
om ami dewa hrih

reddit.com/r/zen

>>16811961
That's dope

>>16808189
>We really just need a fusion between Zen and Abrahamic mystic tradition (Sufism/monasticism/etc)
Pretty sure this is the religion of the Fremen in Dune

>>16810182
that's your palm retard

>>16812376
Not quite, that was ZenSunni.
What we need is ZenSufi.

>>16808189
>>Is there any religion more based than Zen?
yes buddhism is better than zen

>>16808557
>Art is a form of meditation,
Wrong.

>>16813114
now imagine if we combined the two...

>>16813164>>16813164
>now imagine if we combined the two...

then you get non-buddhism, which is 100% wrong view and wrong liberation.
You can't mix buddhism and social constructs from non-enlightened people.

>>16812422
I mean most neo-Sufism or universal Sufism is something like what you speak of, and it's horrendous. I think it has to do with the political aims of those movements blinding their efforts, liberal philosophical understandings of the world are no longer sufficient.

>>16811961
南無阿彌陀佛

I discovered Pure Land earlier in the year and haven't looked back since.

>>16813559
what is your mantra of choice?

>>16813559
>>16813573
How to into pure land?

>>16808189
>We really just need a fusion between Zen and Abrahamic mystic tradition (Sufism/monasticism/etc)
No thanks. We need to reject Abrahamism wholesale.

>>16813622
watch this once and follow along, congrats you are now ensured a spot in the pure land
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFkeXZufnIQ

>>16813573
>what is your mantra of choice?
lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh

>>16813622
>How to into pure land?
If a friend asked, I'd simply tell them to look up DT Suzuki's Cat vs Monkey theories and direct them to the Zuiken's Letters: http://www.nembutsu.info/horai/letters_ja1.htm

How I personally got into it:
- i accepted that i'm a brainlet and a fallen degenerate, it's not that i reject Zen, it's that I reject my OWN possibility of attaining "Nirvana" thru Zen practices
- in other words, i have no faith in my own Self Power, but I have faith in God, the Other Power, see (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiriki))
- I've always believed strongly in God, but been very cynical about man-made religious doctrine and rules, but i appreciate that their purpose is to direct man's attention toward the Absolute, so the question is which Absolute-directed practices suit your life
- exoteric Pure Land encourages repeated chanting as the method of Absolute-direction, which turns off westerners who fail to comprehend its purpose, but imo this method is itself a misreading of the sutras, what matters is directing the mind and never letting slip the reality of your own impermanence in the face of God. God knows and hears everything, why would you have to yell his name in praise constantly?
- in short:
#1. what do I believe: that my salvation can only come from God, that faith in God brings its own state of "upasanti"
#2. how do I practice, simply by keeping God in mind and being thankful

personally important quotes:

>If a good man can attain salvation, how much more so an evil man!" (Shinran)
>All that dwells upon the earth is perishing, yet still abides the Face of thy Lord (Qur'an LV)
>The eighty thousand teachings of the Dharma all expound one word: death. Keep death in mind, and you will
naturally acquire a grasp of all eighty thousand. (Shoko)

>>16813733
Is Amitabha a name of Allah, like ar-Rahman ar-Rahim is etc.?

>>16813622
>>16813622
>>How to into pure land?

hate buddhism, simple as

>>16813767
>Is Amitabha a name of Allah, like ar-Rahman ar-Rahim is etc.?
That's how I like to view it at least. Amitabha means Infinite Light, he is also known as Amitayus, Infinite Light

>>16813796
*Amitayus, Infinite Life

>>16808189
>perfected spritual science
This is why westerners will forever suck. You guys just cant get rid of materialism. Die in your filth.

>>16808697
Through God everything is possible

>>16813811
That's as likely to happen as you abandoning your racial inferiority complex.

>>16812422
Based

>>16813819
>"racial inferiority"
>proves me right AGAIN
Go on.

>>16813831
You're obsessed with race is what i'm saying, this is a materialistic hang up. God bless you.

>>16813848
This is the literal definition of projection. And then you keep on spouting condescending bullshit. Faggot westerner, you WILL die in your filth as you lived with it. You will never change your ways, much too arrogant.

More kino required in this thread. All this beating around the bush is a fucking snooze fest
>This pure Mind, the source of everything, shines forever and on all with the brilliance of its own perfection. But the people of the world do not awaken to it, regarding only that which sees, hears, feels and knows as mind. Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling and knowing, they do not perceive the spiritual brilliance of the source-substance. If they would only eliminate all conceptual thought in a flash, that source-substance would manifest itself like the sun ascending through the void and illuminating the whole universe without hindrance or bounds.

Therefore, if you students of the Way seek to progress through seeing, hearing, feeling and knowing, when you are deprived of your perceptions, your way to Mind will be cut off and you will find nowhere to enter. Only realize that, though real Mind is expressed in these perceptions it neither forms part of them nor is separate from them.'

>>16813856
You should stop using western language and technology if they cause you such distress. Clean the sand out of your vagina and be thankful to God. I'll pray for you. I fear your racial hatred is seriously retarding your spiritual progress.

Against the view that the Pure Land Sutras are not Shakyamuni’s teaching, but a later invention
by Rev. Josho Adrian Cirlea


>What proves the truth of the Primal Vow, and the Vow maker Amida, and the good news about the possibility of being born in the Pure Land and immediately becoming a Buddha? The very words of Shakyamuni Buddha recorded for our supreme benefit in the Larger Sutra, and the other Pure Land sutras.

>Thus, if someone denies that these sutras were actually taught by Shakyamuni, he or she automatically denies the authenticity of the Jodo Shinshu Dharma, and the reality of Amida, his Pure Land, the Primal Vow, shinjin and nembutsu.

>If Shakyamuni, as a fully Enlightened Buddha, did not actually preach the Pure Land sutras, then nothing in Jodo Shinshu can be trusted anymore, because there is no Buddha to testify to the reality of their existence, whether it be Amida Buddha, the Pure Land, the Primal Vow, the reality of shinjin, or the efficacy of saying the Nembutsu. Such is the tragic consequence of the modern views which deny the authenticity of Shakyamuni’s teachings in the three Pure Land sutras.

>Shinran clearly said that he was able to meet with the Primal Vow of Amida only because of the testimony of Shakyamuni Buddha and the seven Patriarchs who based their teachings upon the teachings of Shakyamuni in the three Pure Land sutras. Shinran was able to come to settled faith (shinjin) and entrust himself to the Primal Vow only because he regarded their words to be true. This was the way that he, as “a foolish person” (his words), entrusted himself to the Vow, and this is the way we too should also have faith in it.

http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/authenticity_shakyamuni.html

ZENTARDS and their mental gymnastics always trying to cope from the fact that any Mahayana branch is made up crap

>PURE LAND IS TRUE BECAUSE IT"S WRITTEN THAT WE WUZ BUDDHAS N SHEET


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

>>16814821
you wouldn't be so angry all the time if you had a bigger wheel

>>16810127
>the mind does not know itself
I think, therefore I am.
>the eye does not see itself
How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real lol!

A lot of Eastern aphoristic "wisdom" is garbage. Westerners need to learn that the Yellow peoples are as easily brainwashed as anyone else.

Zen to Zen Buddhism.
What's Chan then? The ouroboros eats its tail and what can't see itself looks in the mirror to see itself. The son of god is fully god and fully human.

>>16808189

butt butt butt butt butt butt butt

holiooooooooooooooooooooo

>>16815050
>>16815050
Same thing. Sanskrit (dhyana) -> Medieval Chinese (禅那 dzyen'na) -> Japanese (禅, zen). What was once pronounced dzyen in Chinese is now pronounced and romanized as Chan.

>>16815027
>the mind
You do not know the substance of mind. What mind truly is. The argument is that you cannot know. Knowing that mind exists is not the same as knowing the substance of mind.
>the eye
You're missing the point. Even with a mirror, you never see what turns physical objects into vision. You never can. It's not the white of the eyes, not the iris, not the pupil, not even the retina.

>Yo bro Pure land is true because otherwise Pure land would be false


woah that's so smart, dude write a book and call that koans

Chinese buddhism:

Top Chinese Buddhist monk accused of coercing nuns into sex fired

Prominent monk demanded sex from at least six nuns as ‘part of Buddhist studies’ and four of them gave in, report says.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/8/30/top-chinese-buddhist-monk-accused-of-coercing-nuns-into-sex-fired
A prominent Buddhist monk in China with a social media following of millions has been removed as abbot of Beijing’s Longquan Monastery after being accused of coercing several nuns to have sex with him.

The country’s top religious authority said on Thursday that Xuecheng, a Communist Party member and former head of the Buddhist Association of China, was sacked last week after it consulted a report by two former monks at the monastery.


He has been under criminal investigation since the two monks accused him of sexual and financial improprieties, including sending explicit text messages to at least six nuns and breaking national financial rules at the monastery.

The 95-page report by the two monks, which circulated online late last month, cited them as saying that at least four women gave in to Xuecheng’s threats and cajoling to have sex with him.

Xuecheng told the women it was a part of their Buddhist studies, the monks said according to the report.

Both men were asked to leave Longquan monastery after news of the report broke.

Xuecheng had stepped down as head of the Buddhist association earlier this month. He had been silent on China’s Twitter-like Weibo service since August 1, when he posted a statement rejecting the sexual assault claims.

Beijing’s Longquan Monastery has made headlines for combining Buddhism with modern technology, launching last year a two-foot-high robot monk that dispenses mantras and karmic advice.

Why do Women and losers like Mahayana so much and hate Hinayana ?

Reality is a process of self-knowing. The seeing is existence. this is one reason the Abrahamic religion of Christianity says that God is a trinity. that would make God self-knowing and self-communicating. But I guess the concept of God being infinite also covers everything. By simply making a better definition of seeing I have refused to confine myself to someone else's definition of seeing. I don't feel like dancing around and existing in the tribe of Zen, blindly conforming to wisdom uttered by people who knew the truth and who made disciples that may come to the knowledge of the truth or may not. Mysteries are full of wisdom but for those that cannot understand them they are simply mysterious and Answerless. Though not everything can be explained even if it is seen. no matter what form religion might take it will always be a stumbling block. The sound of one hand clapping sounds like one hand clapping. Some can do it better than others.

>>16815361
>You do not know the substance of mind. What mind truly is. The argument is that you cannot know. Knowing that mind exists is not the same as knowing the substance of mind.
I am the substance of my mind. I know it because I know myself. To deny I can know mind is to deny knolwedge entire. He who wants me to believe this is my enemy. He who believes it himself is a fanatic and a fool.

>>16816127
>To deny I can know mind is to deny knolwedge entire.
No, you can still know things without knowing what you are ultimately made of.

>I am the substance of my mind.
Yes

>I know it because I know myself.
Sophistry. What do you mean by that sentence? If you know yourself, describe yourself. There is vision, there is hearing, there are thoughts, what are they made of?

>>16816127
>I am the substance of my mind. I know it because I know myself.

What is 'yourself' such that the same 'you' can know it? What do you mean by MY mind? Who's taking possession? inb4 "me" lol

>>16807980
Request: Chart of zen books

>>16815809
Cuz the suttas that are academically accepted are dry and boring as fuck--the repeating format where he says the same shit 5 times to talk about the five sense-thieves or the myriad whatevers is practically torture. It's like the worst parts of the old testament. Heart Sutra is the only good shit the historical buddha has and it set the stage for the real shit aka mahayana. Lanka, diamond, and platform sutra are infinitely more readable.
>inb4 filtered

>>16816293
I don't have a chart, but my favorite is Instant Zen by Foyan, look for the Thomas Cleary translation. Another good one is The Zen Teaching of Huang Po.

>>16816293
Start at Bodhidharma. Cleary, Blyth, and Red Pine are the translators I look out for but it's mostly a matter of taste (so long as they're not completely butchering it).
>>16816335
hi r*ddit. r/zen is cool though

How is Zen Buddhism doctrinally distinct from Tantric Buddhism?

>>16816387
Provisional methods mainly. Tantric has tantra, zen has no-method. Don't underestimate the Taoist influence

>>16816376
The book list on there is good. Everything else about that subreddit is awful.

>>16816127
The mind cannot be described in terms of forms. Thoughts use forms as a description, therefore, the mind cannot know itself.
To describe mind in forms doesn't make sense. Mind can be any color, so it is not ultimately a color. Mind can be any shape, so it is not ultimately a shape. Mind can be any sound, so it is not ultimately a sound. Mind is whatever can be all colors, all shapes, all sounds; all qualia/forms. Therefore, it cannot be described with qualia/forms. Even though mind is formless, it is every form.
>Form is emptiness,
>Emptiness is form.
- Heart Sutra

>>16807980
does every zen monk story share the same setting? Student asks the master a question that has been troubling him, without words the master rises up then kicks his ass, the student laughs and thanks him for his wisdom

>>16813895
dude just say Brahman and be done with it

>>16816629
That's mostly a Linji school thing--they shout and use physicality more often kinda like slapstick. Overall the beatings are few and far between.

>>16816629
what a stupid question, why I should smack you you lousy brat!

>>16816673
this is basically the spiritual version of godwin's law, any discussion on eastern teachings will inevitably be interrupted by a pajeet who insists on shoehorning their terminology