/lit/ - Literature

its easier

>>16788591
This. It's easier to deal with mere superficial problems than the core issue. It gives Marxists a sense of accomplishment when they get something done like cancelling someone. It makes them think they're in control of the system.

>>16788579
Complete agreement.

What happened was it became an academic field rather than a worker's movement.

>>16788579
There was a massive demoralization after the fall of the USSR.

>>16788579
The active supression of class consciousness in all levels of the american society for several generations

It's because today everyone knows socialism is terrible, even "marxists".

>>16788600
huh?

>>16788579
>no poltards
Fuck off back to the bunker you came from then you son of a fucking cocksucker

>>16788579
thats the post 68 shift that leftists always bemoan

>>16788618
That pic's story is so bizarre and is no surprise conservatives apropiated it

>>16788616
what?

>>16788626
So what happened in '67?

>>16788602
I don't really consider academic analysis of sociology to be a problem, even Adorno himself would make sure to acknowledge that capitalism was at the forefront of social issues. I'm just wondering pretty much everything after him has shed the analysis of capitalism entirely. Adorno is still cited and referenced in modern sociological literature, but without the critique of capitalism.

>>16788602
It started as an academic idea to shitpost Ricardo and the utopian socialists at the same time. It was Marx and Engels' attempt to appear smart and be taken seriously by other intellectuals.

It became an ideological excuse to launch power grabs by various power seekers. Later it returned to its roots by serving as a paradigm to attack rival bourgeois elites in academia, politics and economics.

Realized they just end up biting the hand that feeds them and won't get to larp as intellectuals anymore since most this shit would be disregarded if actual communism were to happen

>>16788639
Because most of his sucessors are less marxists and more Liberals that are afraid of proposing other economical theories and focus in winning a "Culture War", which is the aspect that Social Liberals unambiguously dominate since the 68's.

>>16788579
>What exactly happened to make this a thing?
Capitalists don’t want class struggle to be talked about so they actively cover it with identity politics to keep radicals busy and keep every section of the working class focused on fighting their own little battles instead of uniting. Class struggle is dangerous, minority billionaires, presidents, etc. are not.

>>16788653
>Capitalists
You mean normal people?

Explain to me in good faith how you plan to implement marxism under a central banking system without collapsing the currency and causing mass starvation and a trade embargo upon yourselves? And please remember the creation and distribution of a new currency without outside assistance has historically taken 5-10 years of which the majority of civilians are kept in complete poverty.

Also, if you are an American, how do you expect to pay off your debt which is now mainly owned by foreign nations and how do you plan on protecting the global economy from a USD collapse?

>>16788638
libtard students commandeered leftism after the student uprisings in europe

>>16788609
Now there’s a massive remoralization with the successes of Vietnam, Cuba, Laos, and China, particularly when it comes to dealing with covid.

>>16788658
im curious why you think new governments give a shit about paying the debts of the old government or why you think national debt matters at all

>>16788658
By ensuring everyone agrees, is pretty easy

>>16788664
Uh, those are "state capitalism" and if you think China and Cuba are releasing accurate covid numbers, well what can I say.

>>16788657
No, class politics resonates with the vast majority of people. Even in the disgusting America, 72% want universal healthcare and 79% want a federal jobs program.

>>16788676
They are socialist and you are retarded. Cope.

>>16788677
so why did Bernie lose then?

>>16788664
All of which are communist in propaganda only.

>>16788689
Because the people who vote in democratic primaries are not the majority of Americans. Also the democratic party actively worked to sabotage his campaign and spread negative garbage claiming he is unelectable to gaslight primary voters.

>>16788689
Socialists will say DNC and everyone else will laught at them except for Trumpeters that will say they're right to laught at the eventual dem in fighting
>>16788691
Even if that's true, it means State Capitalism is better that the free market

>>16788611
People, don't underestimate red scare psyops

>>16788677
Lol. Thise numbers depend on how the question is polled. Once people learn that they would lose their private insurance then universal Healthcare support drops through the floor.

Once people learn the cost they flee. Lol.

>>16788698
Is it? Western countries still have higher living standards than those countries do. All it proves is that partial capitalism is better than communism.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87P04Vam2wQ

Again I'd like to remind all the absolute retarded mongs here that this is a discussion as to why sociology has lost its roots in analysis of capitalism and class relations. Go to /pol/ if you want to debate amerishart election shit.

>>16788701
You lose your private healthcare and get better healthcare. Also it’s objectively cheaper.

>>16788710
Imagine caring about ‘muh living standards’ instead of recognizing the superiority of having a dignified, educated, and empowered population without worthless consumerism.

>>16788710
But a worse answer to a actual crisis like Covid.
Covid has seriously damaged the hope that westerners have on their own societies, especially as americans literally do stuff as not wearing masks to own the libs or the libs saying mass gatherings doesn't cause covid (instead of saying they're risking themselves? Nah, they outright deny it)

>>16788718
>>16788600

>>16788721
>he thinks east asia isn't the most absolutely consumerist civilization pattern on earth

get a clue dude

>>16788719
No you don't. That is a blatant lie without any semblance of justification. Universal Healthcare might be "cheaper" monetarily to patients initially, but that value is reduced through massive wait times, older equipment, and access to specialists. It also becomes more expensive and have worse service over time as well due to massive administrative overhead. See Britain's NHS.

>>16788579
>all modern sociology is fundamentally derived from Marx
>the roots of all modern sociology
Excuse me? You people are laughably deluded.

>>16788721
There isn't any dignity in poverty and misery. And now with woke nonsense the socialist state you are likely to have will be a complete and utter mess because of lack of ethnic homogeneity.

I dont get it. Why do you need all this theory when the rich and poweful can simply be shot?

>>16788743
Yeah, shooting Lenin worked out so well!

>>16788747
Yeah, not shooting Stalin was a great idea!!

>>16788739
Weber is not as quoted as Marx. Sorry to say to you, but economic liberals are awful appealing everyone outside your bubble. Marxists at least appeal to natural evolutions of enlightement values, economical Liberals just are the stereotype of greedy assholes.
>>16788743
Because the outcome of the USSR made leftists realize they need to dealt with reactionary elements in the lower and middle classes as well.

>>16788743
You always need a theoretical framework for how to run a society. I don't agree with Lenin on how to do it, but just killing the rich and asking "what's next" accomplishes nothing and would allow reactionary elements to take control.

>>16788755
>Weber is not as quoted as Marx.

That's because Weber never had a state religion based around a cult of his personality.

>>16788755
you need to go back

>>16788687
you know there are 400 billionaires in China and 60% of their GDP is produced by the private sector, with innovation and new jobs even more skewed private

>>16788733
That is the new Chinese wealthy class which was created as a result of increasing the role of the market to develop productive forces. It does not constitute the majority or the entire culture as consumerism does in the USA. >>16788735
Britain’s NHS is only like that because of over 40 years of austerity since Thatcher. >>16788740
Both Cuba and China have large minority populations and are doing excellently considering the material restrictions artificially imposed upon both countries.

>>16788774
>Both Cuba and China have large minority populations and are doing excellently

How excellently are gays doing in Cuba these days? Is it finally legal to be gay now that Castro died?

>>16788766
Please tell me any country that held Marx alone as a cult of personality without any other retarded opportunists like Mao or Stalin. Marx would be rolling in his grave at Maoist china or Stalinist russia.

>>16788766
That is a failure because Marxism will never die thanks to his cult while Weber will get forgotten slowly.
We can get lucky if Marxists become like Liberals in the 2100s.

>>16788755
>Weber is not as quoted as Marx.
Yet he's still the root of modern sociology.

>>16788784
Adorno was a staunch Marxist, where is the cult of personality around him, other than /pol/tarded neo-nazis blaming him as the destroyer of white people?

>>16788712
This sucked dick, Salem should have stopped making music 10 years ago

>>16788774
Yes, if only more money (not cheap) was injected into the NHS, then it won't suck. The NHS is the oldest universal Healthcare program in the world. Its current state is the future for many other systems.

You are now contradicting your earlier points.

>>16788784
Everyone who actually studied sociology in school is assigned plenty of Weber.

>https://oyc.yale.edu/sociology/socy-151?qt-course=2#qt-course

>>16788791
I mentioned Marx, not Adorno. Marx himself is quoted because his persona is a symbol, Weber's persona didn't
Is not about morality, is about how they are viewed as symbols

>>16788774
Have you seen videos of Cuba? They're fucking starving tod death. Dozens of bums on the street. Communism is not capitalist-proof so there isn't any reason why it should be implemented anywhere. Capital is the bigger fish. Also, if it were for Castro or Guevara all the blacks and homosexuals would've been shot since day one.

>>16788804
No, Marx is quoted because he brought the Hegelian dialectic of analyzing the thesis vs antithesis, oppressor vs oppressed into a material reality.

>>16788774
>created as a result of increasing the role of the market to develop productive forces
you don't say lol

>>16788814
>Also, if it were for Castro or Guevara all the blacks and homosexuals would've been shot since day one
This is just a meme. Sure, they were bigoted but not particularly bad compared to their era.
Cuba still has black people, the government unironically is saying that Racism is No More and that causes bizarre moments in that Americans unironically believe that.

>>16788579

Is it really surprising that 'capitalism' got neglected in sociology? Sociology is not really descended from Marx, thats a typical marxist canard that marxists spout to give marx more intellectual heft. He critiqued society and such as many did before.

Marxists think the economic base (capitalism, socialism, feudalism) determines the superstructure (ideologies, dispositions, propositional attitudes) in a society. Thats a hyper reductive linear hierarchical relation/explanation that is clearly wrong.

Sociology as the field grew with Durkheim and Weber became more scientific. It became more categorised and specialist. Marxism is more like a secular moral theology than a soft science like empirical sociology.

The reason 'identity' became prominent is probably due to the massive influence of postcolonial studies on leftist intellectual circles, sociology being one of those circles. People like Frantz Fanon and Spivak and also the nationalist uprisings of marginalised peoples and their struggles for national liberation against the white european colonial powers after ww2.

The frankfurt school are completely jewish centred/focused anyway. The dialectic of enlightment is a thoroughly jewish critique of western civilisation. The dont even hide the ethno-narcissism or jewish ingroup preference if you prefer.

>>16788836
All modern sociology up until Adorno was developed from Marxism, and every academic institution regardless of their rejection of Marxism still references Marxist sociologists. I don't know what your retarded pivot into the jews has to do with this.

>>16788833
That's why I said 'if'. Also, I didn't mean that to be a bad thing. That's one of the reasons they were based.

>>16788833
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-HALlC6QGE

Interview with trans chick who fled Cuba

>>16788856
Based Castro keeping the trannies in check.

Something that strikes me is that cultural values are more of a class market than income today. A plumber can make more than a man with a Master’s degree, yet the Masters degree man will be considered higher class by virtue of his diploma. Any books about this phenomena?

>>16788905
Credentialism is a meme, yes.

>>16788905
Intelectuals and Society by Sowell

>>16788852

The reason you dont understand is because you lack comprehension.

The critical theorists, not all, but most, made their critiques based off their jewish identity and marxist priors. I think they're wrong mostly because they're way too cynical but are very important intellectuals that educated people should read.

Halbermas and Latour, both progressives, have criticised them and their influence is greatly diminished. Orthodox marxists, critical theorists and post marxists are not really taken seriously now.

>>16788918
Except by politicos who take them very seriously. :(

>>16788579
Political discussions belong to /pol/.

>>16788781
>without any other retarded opportunists like Mao or Stalin.

Have you failed to notice that Marxism tends to rather specifically EMPOWER "retarded opportunists"? Have you failed to notice that Marxist ideas tend to disproportionately lead to retarded opportunists taking power, usually because they are willing to be ruthless and kill all the kind-hearted academics and ideologues once they've wormed their way into the socialist inner circle?

Have you noticed that Marxism does not seem to have a mechanism to PREVENT this?

>>16788928

Yes you are correct, im wrong. I should have said in western academia their critiques are seen as wrong and antiquated.

Many young people take Marx, Debord, Sartre and Adorno etc very seriously and are deeply influenced by them.

>>16788670
>>16788674
>you owe us 100 trillion dollars
>lol sorry we arent paying
>China does a calculation and works out an invasion during your economic disaster would cost less than what they would get
>you get invaded while having no paid military

>>16788951
This is the problem with insurgency movements. Its a good reason for why slow reform is better than blistering revolution in many instances.

>>16788965
And USA's nationa debt just keeps growing and growing kek
https://www.usdebtclock.org/

>>16788670
Yes, I agree, we should absolutely destroy our credit rating and make Zimbabwe look like a joke with how worthless our currency will be.

>>16789003
What about the Golden rule? He who makes the rules, gets the gold.

>>16789017
That rule is complete sophistry in the modern world.

>>16788951
>Have you noticed that Marxism does not seem to have a mechanism to PREVENT this?
Destroying society to start at Day Zero was an attempt

>>16788579
>What exactly happened to make this a thing?

The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society.

Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.

>>16789081
While you and Marx are both retarded, I give you credit for sounding exactly like Marx in Kapital. Bravo.

>>16788579
Read ”the revolt of the elites” by Lasch.

read sowell

>>16788579
The CIA pushed leftist anti-Marxist intellectuals in France to consolidate power. This much is confirmed by the documents. A more speculative (but still valid) addendum to this explanation is the rise of the New Left with people like Marcuse, who worked for the CIA. The speculation comes in when one says that the CIA pushed this New Left at home the same way they did the intellectuals in France.
A structuralist explanation is that Western Marxism has always been more humanistic (which is idiotic if you've read any of Marx's mature writings). This lends itself to interpret things in the same humanistic framework as liberalism with things like oppression and identity. Basically a quasi-utopianism. (Real) Marxism in the West is dead except for randos on /leftypol/. If you're a Marxist you should be hopeful for the Chinese New Left with people like Jiang Shigong. I think there's potential for a syncretic Maoist-leaning China in the future.

>the mighty USSR couldn't even withstand a Polish man in a dress who had no army

lol

>>16788579
Watch this: https://youtu.be/7gG6zzHy48w

>>16789407
You forgot the army of child-raping pedos who he kept covering for over the years.

I think you’re probably reading a lot of sociology incorrectly. Most critique of the treatment of ethnic minorities, or the treatment of women, bring it round to their circumstances as being a product of capital, eventually. I’d be interested to know which books, specifically, focus on identity issues alone at the exclusion of capitalism.

>>16789407
Based and JP2GMD-pilled

>>16788609
Nani? It was real socialism after all?

>>16788579
His analysis doesn't hold up under a modern economic/quantitative lens. Thus, resorting to race, class, etc to avoid the inherent flaw.

>>16788653
This right here

>>16788602
it never was a "workers movement" nor could it have been, because the basic premise of class struggle is and always will be an academic spook.
>but at the start of the russian revolution common people were on the streets fighting for liberation
fighting for ideas bonshevik agitators put into their heads, or more accurately, the false promises of peace, food and self-determination.

>>16788755
Also this

With the massive sabotage and fail of Cuba, USSR and China, ofc the focus would have to change, now the problem is getting back into discussing the bilionaires and trilionaires when people think they are unreachable and simply want to try and change the system little by little, something that will never happen due to the bourgeouis being aware of many ways to divert attention from themselves and their scheme

>>16790172
>massive sabotage
you people are still on about that? talk about cope

>>16790178
Suck it

>>16790188
your tower of babylon self-destructed like it always does. you'll never learn until you acknowledge that.

>>16788579
>Marxist
>Literature


Pick one. Marxists are not intelligent people.

>>16788579
>>>>>Reddit

>>16790254
>>>/pol/

>>16788579
Marxist dialectics/historical materialism became completely untenable with the advent of postmodernism, so there was a push for concentrating on the racial and gender aspects in order to salvage marxist critique from becoming yet another positivist dinosaur from the 19th century. Orthodox marxists don't exist anymore in academia in any real sense, and the few who may be described as such are thought of as fringe members of their own marxist milieu.

>>16790514
>Marxist dialectics/historical materialism became completely untenable with the advent of postmodernism
Why?

>>16790094
Right answer
>>16789402
This too

>>16790531
Marx's story is one meta-narrative among others that the West has gotten rid of. A meta-narrative is a grand historiographical claim that seeks to explain all human history in a few words, our past, our current predicament, our resolution.

Christianity sees its founding as the beginning of a salvation project for a man who fell from grace and Eden culminating in the messianic return of Jesus. We don't believe that.
Hegel sees reason at work behind everything as the absolute spirit discovers and frees itself. We don't believe that.
Marx tells us prehistory and capitalism are over, install socialism.exe and everything is solved. We don't believe that.
1800s Positivism wants us to believe that science is all one and all good and will emancipate everyone without an Auschwitz. We don't believe that.

We no longer have one totalizing, unifying vision that reduces the most complex thing to ever exist, the history of this sapient species, to two stupid concepts and throws a redemption myth at the end.

The key thing to remember about Capital was its impeccable timing; it came about right when Europeans were essentially beating the game, when religion was visibly failing, and offered an all-encompassing understanding of human affairs. In the 1860's the principle of the conservation of energy and the laws governing its transformation were, it appeared, close to providing a complete explanation of the multiplicity of natural phenomena. Studies of the cellular structure of organisms gave promise of the discovery of a single system of laws applying to all basic organic phenomena. Darwin's theory of evolution afforded a general historical schema of the development of living creatures. Fechner's studies opened the way to the quantitative measurement of mental phenomena. The day seemed close at hand when the unity of nature, hidden beneath the chaotic wealth of its diversity, would be laid bare to human view. So Marxism is nothing if not a perfect example of 19th century scientism.

>>16788579
Main Currents of Marxism by Kolakowski, explains this.

>>16790566
I am presuming you're familiar with post-structuralism because of your perspective. What I would like to know is if you see any relation between aspects innate to Marxism and the rise of post-modernism and the study & skepticism of, as you say, meta-narratives.

>>16790566
Good response. Answered my question.

>>16790618
Post-modernism is post-structuralism. They're the same thing.

>>16790566
Liberalism is still with their great narratives tho

>>16790514
This is true in my experience as well, even within the 'studies' and humanities full blooded marxists have been pushed to the sidelines. For example, materialist feminists were center stage in academia in the 60s - 70s but by the 90s had been displaced entirely.

>>16790646
My bad i jumped into the thread late and didn't see you were already talking about it. Yes they're synonymous.

>>16788719
>the US govt.
>running ANYTHING better than private companies

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

Right wingers deserve rights or not?

>>16788662
>student uprising
lol, that's propaganda. it was a massive worker uprising starting in France, that was co-opted by "students" (cia backed jewish pedophile cohn-bendit) now history books only talk about the student uprising because it turns out that class consciousness is dangerous. just like the revolutionaries in barcelona were memory holed.

Ironically may '68 is what kickstarted mass migration, the corporate right (MEDEF) lobbied for migration to import an alienated workforce that will not unionize. This strategy has been kept running for 60 years, and most french institutions nowadays recruit muslims because they don't unionize and have zero political awareness.

>>16788658
Its already in effect

>>16788784
Marxism is already dead and the cult you are talking about is one of the major reasons why

Seems to me like worker co-operatives could be the solution to most of the issues we're facing, but ofcourse since it's a threat to the ruling class it will never be widely adopted.

>yes, i don´t lick the boot of the establishment, how could you tell?

I can only imagine a human left that hangs john podesta, until then you people are useful idiots

>>16791997
The same people the OP is talking about are the same who support co-ops as an alternative (breadtube and Vaush).The problems in capitalism don't come from the boss but the firm. By going to co-ops you would have the same capitalist mode of production but with much worse pay offs. The drive toward co-ops is the same liberal humanistic nonsense of democracy, as if making companies more democratic solves anything at all. Such retards.

>>16788579
>and I imagine everyone would agree all modern sociology is fundamentally derived from Marx's analysis of capitalism.

Unfortunately, in ignoring your bad influences - you wouldn't take advice and influences from heroin addicts, but you do take it from a baby torture cult - you ignore the real cause.

You're shit and all is shit because all listens to shit.
Stop torturing babies, stop circumcision. Fix the world once and for all.

>>16789081
>everything wuz static and then started sbinning!
holy fuck Marxism is stupid

>>16788609
it had already happened with the nonaggression pact

>>16788579
using race to avoid talking about class is as american as apple pie

>>16794321
>as if making companies more democratic solves anything at all. Such retards
Except it does

>why did Slave Morality No. 1.23B regress into the goal of being "a decent, cooperative, and nice human bean" rather than actually doing anything to further humanity
jesus CHRIST lads I can't believe you actually thought...
>why did my meme evolve into X and not Y
It happened because it HAD to happen. Because there was literally NO other choice; it would've DIED otherwise.
If you ever find yourself asking the question, "how should we organize human beings for their own benefit" you are already an authoritarian and have forfeited any claim to monotheist-derived "morality," so why did marxfags even try to claim moral superiority within judeo-christian myth-soup? Stick with efficiency like a fucking MAN and maybe someone will indulge your nigerian WHINGING.

I waited for 100 posts to post this, you had ~100 posts of actual discussion so now I get to take a dump, thanks.

>>16788664
China claims they've had fewer covid deaths than France. They are almost certainly lying.

>>16788719
Have you ever been to an American VA? It's terrible.

>>16795182
Why not talk about both?

>>16795194
Ok. You've convinced me.