/lit/ - Literature

>>16768616
>fascism
One day, people will use that word correctly

>>16768639
Is just synonimous with right wing authoritarianism at this point
I see people unironically calling Pinochet a fascist.

>>16768655
>Is just synonimous with right wing authoritarianism
Isn't that what fascism is?

>>16768680
Retard
>>16768616
Imperial Japan wasn’t fascist

>>16768692
I asked a question

>>16768695
His answer was that fascism is not synonimous with All right wing authoritarianism

>>16768680
I dont know much about imperial japan but fascism and other 3rd pos ideologies are pretty heavily reliant on lots of left with though, to simply call it "right wing" shows a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of it, its no different than calling it left wing just because of the left win characteristics it has

>>16769060
Fascism is about hierarches, right wingers are about hierarchies.
Is easy actually

>>16769074
lol what? having a hierarchy is not something that is exclusive to the right

>>16769083
The left does hierarchies out of pragmatism, the right idealizes hierarchy and actively worship the boots that stomp them.

>>16768680

Now nothing in the past was Fascism, these guys are beating the commies in the cringe

As you can see on this board, they are all reactionaries, never reslly offer solutions, and hold some fairytale utopian view of what it will be like under Fascism it is very childish in nature, maybe akin to Peter Pan syndrome

Fascists basically yearn for a strong male figure that will solve all of their problems, they can't cope with growing up and thr personal responsibility thst comes with it

>>16769109
sure, we arent talking about left or right wing ideologies though

>>16768616
>>16768639
>>16768655
>>16768680
>>16768692
>>16768695
>>16768862
>>16769060
>>16769074
>>16769083
>>16769109
>>16769132

>>16769132
Right wingers as a whole need to be purged out of civilized society to get liberals, progressives, communists and anarchists to negociate in peace

Marxists and post marxists invent cool terms like Necropolitics or Biopolitics while right wingers just discuss muh GPD

> The hentai and “perverse” admixtures of immunological modernity become purified into the dream of Japan as the unmediated and nonhybrid occupier of universality. As I show in the conclusion, this process culminated in a kind of suicidal autoimmunity, whereby Japan started eating itself
This sounds so damn ridiculous but also damn epic.

Abysmal thread so I won't put much effort into this post. BUT
>grotesque mockery
Healthy families and beautiful architecture are not grotesque, only a tranny would say this.
>muh hierarchy
Fascism promotes natural hierarchy through private industry and the free market while solely allowing business that contribute to the well-being of the nation. The military exists as the crucible of masculine identity where the masculine soul of the nation is refined.
>solutions
No dual citizenship. No illegal migrants. No foreign wars. Subsidized healthcare for necessary procedures for the native population. Mass infrastructure projects. Housing market and loan reformation. Public sector banks and labor backed currency. Intensive ecological protections. Purging of undesirables and criminal elements. Reformation of the military and abolishment of the MIC to deny the globalists their enforcement arm.
>should be purged
Come and try it pussy.

>>16769396
>Healthy families and beautiful architecture are not grotesque, only a tranny would say this.
Author meant the enslavement of subjects tho, not this in all fairness

> fascist
> no foreign wars
What the heck?

>>16769455
What enslavement? Of jews? Fuck jews.
>no foreign wars
Yes, I'm talking about 21st century american fascism. No eternity wars for israel.

>>16769455
>hitler plunges germany into extreme debt in order to uplift it from 1 to 11 over night and completely rebuild the army from the ground up to the most powerful force on the planet, and thus creates an unstable economic situation that requires a war

>duurrrrrrr fascism obviously requires war!!!

>>16769132
not fascism
>>16769148
>right wingers
>liberals, progressives, communists and anarchists to negociate in peace
Making a statement as asinine as this just shows how ignorant you are of history
One of the primary reasons fascism took hold was because parliamentary socialists making peace with the upper class as well as the rejection of class violence which was a fundamental element of marxist dialetic
>>16769455
>no foreign wars
Fascists would fight war for fun

>>16769520
>What enslavement? Of jews? Fuck jews.
> mention jews
> in a book about Imperial Japan
Go to /pol/ anon

>>16769132
>nothing was fascist
Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were Fascist

>>16769733
Nah nazi Germany were just nazis
They never even referred to themselves as fascist

>>16769547
Most powerful army in the world got BTFOd by communism and the power of a centrally planned economy. Fuck off BARABARBARBARBAR

>>16769785
>Most powerful army in the world got BTFOd by communism
they were fighting a bit more than just the ussr
and if hitler actually took goebbels or ribbentrop's advice he would have sought and alliance with the soviet union.

There was going to be a war either way though, because hitler abandoned the debt based banking system in use in Germany

>>16769785

yep, Germany and Japan had state of the art military power and couldn't take out their Russian and Chinese neighbors that were hungry and poverty stricken

not even with all their allies tying down their enemies , crazy how Fashys have the gall to cry " muh nazi invincible "

>>16769982
The "alliance" between germany and japan was a purely diplomatic one.
Germany was a barely industrialized peasent nation when ww2 began

>>16769982
>all their allies tying down their enemies
Post five examples of this

>>16769982
>Germany
>Japan
>state of the art military

>>16769744
Sure but national socialism is still a third positionist ideology
>>16769785
>>16769982
They were also fighting the two (three?) greatest capitalist empires in the world. Which the USSR were reliant on for material support

>>16769132
You are wrong, fascists are the only true anarchists, they don't yearn for a strong male figure, for they are dictators of themselves

>>16770139
Pretty sure this was true of Germany at least or at least German equipment. German tanks were for example in themselves almost unbeatable, or would have been in roughly equal numbers to any of their enemies. Only Germany didn't have access to an inexhaustible source of oil or other raw materials, or labor/industrial power, and so ended up drowning in an infinite sea of Shermans and T34s and bloodthirsty Soviet peasants. Of course it also didn't help that they sabotaged their access to Jewish intellectual capital (for example: "...at the peak of their activity, between the outbreak of World War I in 1914 and the Nazis' rise to power in 1933, one-third of all math professors in Germany were Jewish - although Jews constituted less than 1 percent of the total population.") Still their shit was state of the art basically the whole war. Not a Nazi sympathizer at all btw.

>>16769819
>>16770156
BARBARBARBARBARBARBARBAR

>>16770403
>German tanks were for example in themselves almost unbeatable, or would have been in roughly equal numbers to any of their enemies.
They were on par with anything the allies put out if not worse in some cases.
During 1940, numbers for numbers German tanks were "inferior" in every way compared to her enemies.
French tanks were nigh impervious to German 2cm tank guns and German armor was paper to French 75mm guns.
How was a German victory possible? Military doctrine.
France was still relying on WW1 tactics for what modern warfare has become, mobile warfare. Bunkers, trench lines, and walls do fuck all when you're weakest position us getting blitzed by the enemy from every possible angle.
In 1941 Soviets had KV tanks which were impervious even to 5cm or short 7.5cm guns and there Premiere medium tank, the T34 was pretty much superior to the German Panzer III from every angle (again, on paper)
What makes the difference in reality is logistics such as doctrine and production.

Soviets at the start of WW2 were still mobilizing which is why they were caught off guard. They were in the process of adopting a new standard weapon and their tank production for medium and heavy tanks was still behind.
When 1943 came around and the Tiger was pushed into service the T 34 was already 3 years into production and 6 years from when it was first designed. Comparing T34 with tigers is like comparing IS tanks with panzer IVs
Germans anyway, produced most tanks late in the war, than early in the war.

>>16770415
Faggot

>>16768680
Fascism is a right wing progressive ideology that seeks to rejuvinate a nation and her culture through a revolutionary transformation of society. In other words, it takes some of the old (nation, tradition, values, family) and empowers it in a progressive context (socialism, totalitarianism, unions and guilds, autarky, universal healthcare and education, guaranteed employment and guaranteed living wage). It champions youth, struggle, family, health, self improvement, and nature.

Very very different from Pinochet, or any right wing dictator for that matter.

>>16770688
What did pinochet do?
Why is he praised by lolberts?

gonna ignore the other replies as they are probably 17 year olds who don't know about ww2 besides fashy edgy memes

>>16770156

yeah, the US was sending materials since before they put troops on the ground, but they had time before the USSR got involved and they had time after that before the US got involved, and China and USSR were particularly their immediate neighbors compared to the UK or US and they were putting everything they had into their military

either way, fashys in their minds believe the whole world fought the nazis head on 1 vs 100 and that is why they lost

>>16771275
They would have lost no matter what. They were fighting 3 world powers with equivalent if not superior economies that had a landmass 20x germany
I mean, what do you expect? Lmao

>>16771275
They would have lost no matter what. They were fighting 3 world powers with equivalent if not superior economies that had a landmass 20x germany
I mean, what do you expect? Lmao

>>16770688
>right wing progressive ideology
its inherently regressive if we're going on the idea of liberal enlightenment progressiveness as the driving force of modern civilization.

Fascism is a reactionary ideology that is meant to consolidate power after a shock to an imperial capitalist nation state. It targets institutions and people that threaten the power structures of the imperial order and seeks to destroy them such as labor unions, socialists, vast ideological projects for equality, etc through an authoritarian police state

you could not be any more wrong if you tried

>>16769060
>to simply call it "right wing" shows a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of it
are you stupid or something?

>>16770403
>at the peak of their activity, between the outbreak of World War I in 1914 and the Nazis' rise to power in 1933, one-third of all math professors in Germany were Jewish - although Jews constituted less than 1 percent of the total population.

That speaks more towards nepotism than anything. Professorship is generally a very cushy position that many people would like to have. It reinforces what he was trying to do, but yeah at the time he probably could have used those people.

>>16770693
>sold the entire country to capitalist jews on the usa and england
>killed a lot of innocent people because no one accepted him as a puppet dictator
>stole a lot of money from chile and fleed to england
>installed a drug culture inside popular neighborhoods
>formed two paramilitar and informal units full of drugaddicts and mentally ill people to rape, torture, terrorize and kill nonmarxist people, just in case
He was the avatar of capitalist altright: jewlly-structured morals, illiterate, drug addict, ugly, low iq, coward, genetically degenerated, etc

>>16768616
Is anyone actually going to talk about the book? OP should've given us more context here. Seems very heady and PoMo-y to me.

>In this major reassessment of Japanese imperialism in Asia, Mark Driscoll foregrounds the role of human life and labor. Drawing on subaltern postcolonial studies and Marxism, he directs critical attention to the peripheries, where figures including Chinese coolies, Japanese pimps, trafficked Japanese women, and Korean tenant farmers supplied the vital energy that drove Japan's empire. He identifies three phases of Japan's capitalist expansion, each powered by distinct modes of capturing and expropriating life and labor: biopolitics (1895–1914), neuropolitics (1920–32), and necropolitics (1935-45).

Seems sci-fi ish. Why can't these academics just use straightforward language?

>>16771373
>Why can't these academics just use straightforward language?
how else are you going to protect your fake job from scrutiny?

>>16771327
>its inherently regressive
fascism regects the liberal idea of "linear "progress" of a society
As much as they reject liberalism though they are still populist which is a major liberal value.
>Fascism is a reactionary ideology
How?
>consolidate power after a shock to an imperial capitalist nation state
imperialism is not exclusive to either communism, fascism, or capitalism
>It targets institutions and people that threaten the power structures of the imperial order
This means absolutely nothing
>seeks to destroy
>labor unions
they destroyed labor unions they didn't like and promoted the ones they did. Reminds me of certain other socialist states...
>socialists
> “Long live Mussolini! Long live socialism!”
-Bombacci before he was executed by a communist mob
communists really like to discount the marxist and syndicalist origin of fascism, easy to do when they are Illiterate.
>vast ideological projects for equality
Empty words
>etc
You ran out of things to say
>through an authoritarian police state
Stalin's USSR was infinitely much more authoritarian than mussolini's italy
But then you're going to tell me "but he diverted from marxist principles"
To which i will respond, mussolini diverted from fascist principles.
>you could not be any more wrong if you tried
Oh the irony
>>16771333
>are you stupid or something?
Step outside the ideological bubble

>>16771327
the only reason you believe that is because you are a leftist, ie you have to believe that. you make it anymore obvious..

>>16771327
Reactionaries wish to revert society to an older stage of development, they do not wish to innovate, experiment, or transform. Your monarchists are just people who want to restore the crown, nothing more.

What makes fascism progressive is that it does not seek to revert to a prior stage of development. It seeks to venture forward into the unknown and transcend the nation to a higher, unprecedented stage of human civilization.

The reason you have a different opinion of fascism is because you aren't really talking about fascism as an ideology, but rather using the word to specifically refer to a reaction from Capital to reassert its control on the brink of collapse as per Marxist analysis. This has historically occurred with a fascist victory in Germany and Italy, but it has also resulted in a neoliberal victory such as in Chile. Pinochet despite your analysis, was not a fascist and his beliefs, plan, and vision for the future are far removed from that of fascists.

>>16771392
are you 16 or something? what are you not understanding about what I wrote? what the fuck do you think fascism is if not a reactionary right wing police state created by a crisis?

I seriously hope you dont buy the bullshit and meaningless gibberish "traditionalists" espouse about fascism. Actual fascists with power believed in nothing other than maintaining power and the mobilization around targeting an other in an attempt to validate their power. All that gay shit evola and other traditionalists wrote has nothing to do with fascism and is just mental masturbation wishing that people gave a shit about their ancestral nobility

>>16771448
>are you 16 or something? what are you not understanding about what I wrote? what the fuck do you think fascism is if not a reactionary right wing police state created by a crisis?
It's national syndicalism.
>I seriously hope you dont buy the bullshit and meaningless gibberish "traditionalists" espouse about fascism
Traditionalists are not fascists and they are in fact critical lf fascism.
>Actual fascists with power believed in nothing other than maintaining power and the mobilization around targeting an other in an attempt to validate their power.
Hm okay, can you tell me what fascist said that?
>All that gay shit evola and other traditionalists wrote has nothing to do with fascism and is just mental masturbation wishing that people gave a shit about their ancestral nobility
Yes, we're not talking about evola

>>16771434
fascism isnt an ideology. There are ideologies you can label as fascist but there is no coherent belief system of fascism like you could find for liberalism, marxism, imperialism, etc. Its a purely opportunistic lashing out with little principals or consistency of thought. Fascists themselves were opportunists and general bullshitters who never believed the shit they were saying. If you really want to split hairs you can say Fascism as an umbrella term is a post-modern ideology created by the failure of modernist liberal values and institutions but the depth of calling it an ideology ends there.

>>16771489
>>16771434
>>16771392
absolute pseud

>>16771448
>I seriously hope you dont buy the bullshit and meaningless gibberish "traditionalists" espouse about fascism

Traditionalists and fascists may superficially align on some issues, but ultimately they are opposed to each other. Evola is a famous traditionalist who was obnoxious in his opposition to fascism, so were the pro-crown Italian monarchists. I suppose one way of looking at it is that fascists see tradition as a tool that provides social cohesion, but they seek to usurp tradition wherever it would benefit the nation. Traditionalists do not see tradition as a means, but an end in of itself, and thus are viciously against any erosion of tradition.

>>16771498
>fascism isnt an ideology
It is
>there is no coherent belief system of fascism
Which is part of the belief system of fascism. It's an ideology of praxis. You transform any society into a fascist one quite easily.
>Its a purely opportunistic lashing out with little principals or consistency of thought.
I don't think so, there are a lot of books about what fascists "thought".
>Fascists themselves were opportunists and general bullshitters who never believed the shit they were saying.
>That's why they all died in war for what they believed in
>Fascism as an umbrella term is a post-modern ideology created by the failure of modernist liberal values and institutions but the depth of calling it an ideology ends there.
Fascism is literally a modernist ideology while liberalism isn't.
>>16771508
Retard

>>16771513
>fascists see tradition as a tool that provides social cohesion, but they seek to usurp tradition wherever it would benefit the nation.
fascists dont believe in anything. They are shapeshifters that cling to and parrot whatever will get them into power before shedding those facades when theyre no longer convenient. whatever they trick the populace into believing to legitimize the power of the state has nothing to do with an actual ideological framework of what fascism is.

>>16771536
>It's an ideology of praxis
you are gayer than gay sex. You have no idea what you're talking about. You are a highschooler or have the intelligence of a highschooler. Its debatable if you've even read a book in your life if you came up with something as stupid as "fascism is an ideology of praxis".

Everything you write about fascism is wrong or outright unintelligible.
>Fascism is a modernist ideology while liberalism isnt
You are genuinely one of the dumbest fucking people i've ever seen on this website.

>>16768616
>Commies just famine or shoot you, Fascists turn the entire world into a mockery of itself.
What? Commies promise liberation and everyone loses. The masses experiencd famines, purges, and alienation because of no higher purpose. Fascists promise a national revival and that's what they get. Italy improved after Mussolini, Germany's economy improved after Hitler. They didn't make life a living hell for everyone, just the people they didn't like.

Fascism is the human condition rebelling against change it cannot adequately adapt to in time.

It is the natural check against uncontrolled overgrowth.

>>16771571
>they didnt make a living hell for everyone

>>16771565
Ideology of praxis is kind of oxymoronic, but your contention that fascism isn't an ideology is just false. Look into the theoretical basis for fascism in Gentile, Sorel, and Italian intellectuals in general. If you're already aware of these I'd like to hear your argument that these don't count as ideology or fascism.

>>16769148
>the people who represent order need to be purged out of civilized society so the guys who represent chaos can negotiate in "peace"

>>16771581
Communists were the perpetrators of the famines and purges is my point. The Germans weren't the ones who bombed Dresden.

>>16771595
what sequence of events led to the city of dresden being melted? did it have something to do with fascists in power carrying out whatever they wanted?

>>16771565
>you are gayer than gay sex. You have no idea what you're talking about. You are a highschooler or have the intelligence of a highschooler. Its debatable if you've even read a book in your life if you came up with something as stupid as "fascism is an ideology of praxis".

>The Fascist, on the other hand, conceives philosophy as a philosophy of practice (”praxis”). That concept was the product of certain Marxist and Sorellian inspirations (many Fascists and the Duce, himself, received their first intellectual education in the school of Marx and Sorel)—as well as the influence of contemporary Italian idealistic doctrines from which Fascist mentality drew substance and achieved maturity.
> The Philosophy of Fascism 1st November 1928, pp. 36-37.

>You are genuinely one of the dumbest fucking people i've ever seen on this website.
Are you seriously going to tell me that fascism is not modernist? Do you know how many modernists considered themselves fascist? Do you even know that fascism was conceived in part thanks to the Futurist art movement?

Read your own theory, illiterate retard

>>16771595
How do commies continue to get support to keep trying over and over again despite demonstrable historical damage wrought in its name?

I'll tell you why: Humanism. Any ideology rooted in humanism can always have the ability to appear benign and attractive to those who are suffering.

Stamp out humanism. I'm tired of positive causes.

>>16770276
insanely retarded

>>16771565
>fascists dont believe in anything. They are shapeshifters that cling to and parrot whatever will get them into power before shedding those facades when theyre no longer convenient. whatever they trick the populace into believing to legitimize the power of the state has nothing to do with an actual ideological framework of what fascism is.

I'm a fascist and I believe in all of this sincerely. Frankly, the phemonenon you are talking here is not at all limited to fascist leaders. Politicians liberal and conservative alike constantly bullshit and say whatever to get power, and in the end don't fulfill nearly all of their promises.

More relevant, your communist leaders also parrot pro-worker lies to secure power. Lenin, who championed the Soviets, would dismantle them as well as brutally crush the pro-labor explicitly socialist Kronstadt rebellion, all to cement Bolshevik power. Stalin would lie straight through his teeth and cause a century of ideological confusion within the left when he claimed that the USSR was a "state of the whole people" where "antagonistic class contradictions no longer exist", where "the antithesis between town and country has been eliminated" and where socialism has finally been achieved despite the admitted existence of commodity production and the law of value. He would then invent an entirely new development of "Marxism" to justify his rule post facto, what we now call "Marxist-Leninism".

In other words, if your criticism of fascism is to be taken more seriously, then we see that you communists are just as much of manipulative shapeshifters who believe in nothing but power.

>>16771600
You seem to misunderstand my point. Let's take the two ideologies in a vacuum, no foreign influence. Communist countries would still have famines and mass death because the ideology is the direct cause of the suffering. A fascist country would still be prosperous because, again, the ideology is directly linked to it. War isn't inherent to the fascist ideology.

>>16771585
>fascism isnt an opportunistic chameleon, here read these opportunistic chameleons. You're trying to assign Nazism and italian fascism as they exist as real tenable ideologies with an general conceptual idea of fascism in its entirety as an ideology.

Stalinism is an ideology. Marxism is also an ideology. Nazism and Italian fascism are both ideologies, Fascism isnt. It doesnt exist in a vacuum like actual ideologies.

>>16771619
>lets make shit up so past fascist ideologies dont look like death cults that murdered millions of people for no reason.

The ideological point of Nazism is a war of total annihilation against "jewish bolshevism". There is no hypothetical that can even be entertained in which you can look at Nazism and say its wars of aggression were little oopsies that derailed their project when the 2nd world war was the entire goal of the ideology.

>>16771602
youre so fucking stupid. I wouldnt even want you to eat my ass and taste my shit for fear my waste would actually make you smarter.

>>16771647
>denies fascism comes from modernism
>thinks liberalism is modernist
>doesn't understand how a philosophy can be of "praxis"
>he calls me the retard

>>16771647
> I wouldnt even want you to eat my ass and taste my shit for fear my waste would actually make you smarter

>>16771618
>I'm a fascist
m8 youre a fucking retard if im being honest. You're essentially reading Rudy Giuliani speeches from 90 years ago and taking it to heart as eternal truth if you genuinely call yourself a fascist.

>>16771647
>Marxism is also an ideology
It literally isn't
If you actually read a book you would know that.
Dumb faggot

>>16769060
>fascism and other 3rd pos ideologies are pretty heavily reliant on lots of left with though
The right can't think.

>>16771671
>anime poster
>doesnt know what modernism is
>doesnt know what fascism is
>doesnt know what the word praxis means
>genuine fascist
>thinks hes not a retard

>>16771686
of course marxism is an ideology you fucking retard. what a baseless retarded assertation

>>16771684
You're calling people retarded left and right in this thread and the only thing you have been able to do is repeat yourself like your word is self-evidently fact, rather than directly grapple with any points made.

>>16771702
>im a fascist, please take me an the dumb shit i say seriously

>>16771695
I have explained my points to you multiple times while the only thing you've done is throw a hissy fit.
Why don't you explain with your big 'ol brain what fascism is, and how fascism is not a philosophy of "praxis" or "action" and how fascism doesn't belong to the modernist movement.
>>16771701
Marxism is about as much an "ideology" as science is you dumb faggot. He literally makes it clear in "The German Ideology". Read Marx, dumb fuck. Better yet, start with the Greeks.

>>16771684
I was a hardcore Marxist and a communist for several years, I used to run book clubs, write articles for a commie website, made a guest appearance on a ML youtuber, made propaganda posters, reached out to lefty personalities like Richard Wolff for interview, and more - though if I said more I would be doxxed.

I still significantly sympathize with Marxist communists and I understand why they believe what they do. I don't even think most of what they say is wrong. But communists do not have a monopoly on socialism, and Marxism cannot hope to have a complete and accurate rendering of what fascism truly is.

>>16771729
>marx says marxism isn’t an ideology so we can’t interpret it as ideology
Not surprised you’re a fascist, you just slurp up anything and hold it in that big fat guy

>>16771731
>Marxism cannot hope to have a complete and accurate rendering of what fascism truly is.
Because it doesn't fit into their logic system.

>>16771739
>interpret marxism as an ideology
So you're a revisionist? Lmao
Marx would rise from the grave and kick your ass for being such a schmuck.
>still ignores my other points
Please, leave your ideological bubble. You're embarrassing even to Marxists.

>ITT Fascist tells "Marxist" to read Marx and "Marxist" seethes

>>16771351
That's just a statistic I had available. Jews were extremely over-represented in just about every high skill position in the country. Whether the example of mathematics or anything else was because of nepotism is irrelevant; the fact is that those individuals had spent years becoming educated in fields relevant to the war effort (specifically development of new technologies) and were not able to be replaced in the short term after being expelled or gassed en masse.

>>16771740
the marxist analysis of fascism is the only one that makes any sense at all. If you let fascists run their mouth endlessly about what fascism is you end up with an incoherent unintelligible mess.

>>16771729
You dont know what modernism is.
You dont know what post-modernism is.
You dont know what the word praxis means if you think you can label fascism as "an ideology of praxis" and consider it a valuable definition.
You confuse the modernist art movement with modernism.
I've explain to you countless times what fascism is. You have never once fucking told me what you think it is. You have only given me meaningless bullshit like "fascism is an ideology of praxis" and outright retarded shit like "liberalism isnt a modernist ideology".


Im going to say this for the last time. This is the only way to understand fascism.

Fascist ideologies are reactionary right wing movements that arise when the power structures of an imperial nation are under threat from some kind of crisis or national disaster. Fascists only seek to grasp on to power and restore the status quo or perception of a past status quo and to mobilize the state against an other fascists perceive to be the instigators of crisis. They are post-modern in their understanding of power and ideological framework and are essentially chameleons that adapt and replicate anything that will lead them to power including left wing populism, mysticism, nationalism, etc. Fascism itself is not a political ideology and has no ideological convictions, it is merely a pattern and descriptor of a power structure.

>>16771758
yeah that’s because I’m someone else. your retardation was too much, I had to butt in

>>16771565
>It's an ideology of praxis
Mussolini pretty much says this in The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism:
>Fascism was not the nursling of a doctrine worked out beforehand with detailed elaboration; it was born of the need for action and it was itself from the beginning practical rather than theoretical

>>16771887
also known as not a coherent political ideology and opportunistic grifters making shit up as they went to get a hold of power

>my ideology is the acting on my ideology
cool man i hope youre enjoying it

>tankie is incapable of arguing honestly
Imagine moi shock

no one is a tankie here

>>16771896
everyone in here is arguing dishonestly

>>16771327
the liberal narrative is about increased freedom over time, not dissolution of power over time. so no, consolidating power is not regressive from a liberal perspective (otherwise liberalism wouldnt manifest as centralised transnational bodies of government)

>>16771905
liberalism champions democratic institutions and equality of law. Of course a paranoid authoritarian police state would be regressive to the liberal narrative

>>16771861
Fascism is explicitly modernist. It is technically equipped ersatz myth

Woah so its an ideology of non ideology that itself is an ideology of inchoeherence that I can coherently label this non ideology as an ideology

The seething fag ITT might be one of the dumbest niggas around

>I'm a fascist and I believe in all of this sincerely.

>>16771861
A reactionary is someone like Joseph de Maistre, Evola, or fucking Moldbug. It’s not “anyone you disagree with”. Have you ever tried being intellectually honest?

>>16771893
Lol I agree just thought I throw out the quote

>>16771947
>fascism isnt reactionary
have you ever tried being intellectually honest?

>>16771861
You dont know what modernism is.
You dont know what post-modernism is.
You dont know what the word praxis means if you think you can't interpret fascism as "a philosophy of praxis"
and assert it means nothing.
You say the "modernist art movement" is distinct from "modernism" but can't seem to explain how.
I've explained to you countless times what fascism is. You have never once fucking told me what you think it is. You have only given me meaningless bullshit like "fascism is a reactionary right wing ideology" and outright retarded shit like "they are essentially chameleons that adapt and replicate anything that will lead them to power ".

Im going to say this for the last time. This is the only way to understand fascism.

Fascist ideology inherently rejects the left-right dichotomy. Fascists seek to remove distinction between "state" and "individual" and sees them inseparable in part of a synthesis. The Fascist state is a popular state, every citizen shares a relationship with the State and is so that the State exists only in so far as it is made to exist by the individual citizen. Just as the organs of oneself constitute the whole of the body. Fascism functions on a corporatist, or syndicalist modus operandi where it sees to unite society under different organizations as a means to foster the development of the state.

>>16771952
Okay, what were fascists reacting to?

>>16771974
the nation state in crisis and its power structures in risk of being replaced.

>>16771974
>Fascist ideology inherently rejects the left-right dichotomy.
lmao graduate highschool

>>16772012
>the nation state in crisis and its power structures in risk of being replaced.
Retard

Italians! Here is the program of a genuinely Italian movement. It is revolutionary because it is anti-dogmatic, strongly innovative and against prejudice.

For the political problem: We demand:

a) Universal suffrage polled on a regional basis, with proportional representation and voting and electoral office eligibility for women.

b) A minimum age for the voting electorate of 18 years; that for the office holders at 25 years.

c) The abolition of the Senate.

d) The convocation of a National Assembly for a three-years duration, for which its primary responsibility will be to form a constitution of the State.

e) The formation of a National Council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made from the collective professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a General Commission with ministerial powers.

For the social problems: We demand:

a) The quick enactment of a law of the State that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers.

b) A minimum wage.

c) The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions.

d) To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants.

e) The rapid and complete systemization of the railways and of all the transport industries.

f) A necessary modification of the insurance laws to invalidate the minimum retirement age; we propose to lower it from 65 to 55 years of age.

For the military problem: We demand:

a) The institution of a national militia with a short period of service for training and exclusively defensive responsibilities.

b) The nationalization of all the arms and explosives factories.

c) A national policy intended to peacefully further the Italian national culture in the world.

For the financial problem: We demand:

a) A strong progressive tax on capital that will truly expropriate a portion of all wealth.

b) The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor.

c) The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

>graduate highschool
Read a book

>>16772042
>says some bullshit
>creates a reactionary police state instead
heh, nothing personnel

>>16772065
Average citizen under Mussolini's Italy had more freedom than someone would under Stalin or Lenin's USSR.

You're also forgetting that Mussolini was a literal Anarchist, and would translate Kropotkin's and Bakunin's work from French to Italian. He was well versed with both Stirner and Nietzsche and the only reason he was kicked out of his socialist circles was because he was pro-war and pro-violence.
If Mussolini's italy was "a reactionary police state" then Stalin's USSR especially was. He would even reverse some more liberal social reforms from when the bolsheviks first seized power and would supress art he didn't like.

Except I'm not criticizing Marxism by attacking Stalin because I'm not a retard going for low hanging fruit. Perhaps you should stop being intellectually dishonest and treat me with the same respect.

>>16772065
>>says some bullshit
>>creates a reactionary police state instead
they did most of the "bullshit" it says retard

>>16772012
>the nation state in crisis and its power structures in risk of being replaced.
How can they be reactionary when they were the ones challenging the power structure?
You're drowning in ideology, chud.

>>16771690
sure, conservatives are retarded

>>16771327
any shcolar of fascism that is not a marxist (ex. payne, griffin) will recognize the revolutionary element in fascism

read real academic scholars

>>16771861
stop reading marxists and read papers on fascism by historians, like
>https://web.archive.org/web/20061014085219/http://ah.brookes.ac.uk/history/staff/griffin/coreoffascism.pdf

>...a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti-conservative nationalism. As such it is an ideology deeply bound up with modernization and modernity, one which has assumed a considerable variety of external forms to adapt itself to the particular historical and national context in which it appears, and has drawn a wide range of cultural and intellectual currents, both left and right, anti-modern and pro-modern, to articulate itself as a body of ideas, slogans, and doctrine.

>>16772110
nobody is stopping you from masturbating to mussolini but fascism is inherently a hollow shell

>>16772708
what like you? the idea of fascism being revolutionary is retarded.

>>16772178
they didnt challenge shit they just inhabited the empty homes

>>16772777
>he still can't address any points
>>16772787
>they didnt challenge shit they just inhabited the empty homes
>literally overthrow the government in a coup
>they didn't challenge shiiit

>>16772793
>overthrow the government in a coup
>invited to be prime minister
FTFY


the aristocracy and status quo wanted fascists in power because it meant their power and wealth would remain uncontested and that an authoritarian figure would crush the left wing that was gaining momentum in the rubble of ww1


your dumb fuck mysticism bullshit never fucking existed. its always been opportunistic grifters behind fascism. Youre dumb enough to read the bullshit they made up on the spot and treat it as a grand ideological project. Have sex and graduate highschool. You'll stop pretending to be a fascist

>>16772807
>invited to be prime minister
>current prime minister wanted to declare a state of siege and declare a civil war
>king decided against it because of mussolini's popular support, threw current prime minister out
FTFY

>the aristocracy and status quo wanted fascists in power because it meant their power and wealth would remain uncontested
The aristocracy wanted fascists in power because they were the POPULAR party and weren't going to massacre the aristocracy like a bunch of savages
The Italian aristocracy were a bunch liberals.
Land owners wanted him in power so they wouldn't get massacred like kulaks would.
>would crush the left wing that was gaining momentum in the rubble of ww1
The fascists already won those battles in the streets before they seized power. They crushed the "left" because the masses were ready supporting them.
>your dumb fuck mysticism bullshit never fucking existed
Who is talking about mysticism?
>its always been opportunistic grifters behind fascism. Youre dumb enough to read the bullshit they made up on the spot and treat it as a grand ideological project. Have sex and graduate highschool. You'll stop pretending to be a fascist
Lol. Coming from the guy who can only engage with verbal attacks.

>>16772807
Faggot

>>16772777
So is communism. Your communists never believed in anything. They just said random shit that appealed to the masses, got power, then killed them all.

"Muh worker councils" - Lenin says, then promptly destroys them

"Muh worker rights and democracy" - Lenin says, before his bloody massacre at Kronstadt

"Muh socialism" - Lenin says, before bringing capitalism with the NEP

"Muh free speech for the proles" - Mao says, before using the Hundred Flowers campaign as a trap to exterminate anyone critical of the CCP.

I could go on and on and on forever. Communists are empty, hollow, they believe in NOTHING. The only reason there are so many Marxist derivatives (Marxist-Leninism, Marxist-Leninist-Maoism, Third Worldism, etc) is to cover up their subhuman fiendish lying to the people. "Oh workers councils? Well actually it was always Marxist (tm) to get rid of them, we just didn't know it yet."

This stupid nigger trying to tell us that the fascists are hollow? They actually did what they promised. They revitalized their nations, they revitalized wages, standard of living, and infrastructure. They removed the Jews from all positions of power and were even planning to wipe them out for good. Those were all things that fascists not only promised, but delivered.

And the communists? Liberation for the Proletariat! Workers rights! Destruction of capitalism! Annihilation of the bourgeoisie! Peace, land, and bread for all! The communists had promised all of this, and succeeded in NONE of it. Not only did communists not achieve a SINGLE thing they promised, they paradoxically turned their host nations into the most oppressive hellhole to live in as a worker.

Communists believe in nothing.

Fascists have beliefs, principles, that they quite literally went to the grave standing for.

>>16771373
>Seems sci-fi ish. Why can't these academics just use straightforward language?
>>16771381
I do not understand it neither but I think it sounds neat.
Its pretty much about how power structures use life and death as mere coins, the complete deshumanization of others

I'm enlightened and see both communism and fascism as wicked gay

>>16774911
>This stupid nigger trying to tell us that the fascists are hollow? They actually did what they promised. They revitalized their nations, they revitalized wages, standard of living, and infrastructure. They removed the Jews from all positions of power and were even planning to wipe them out for good. Those were all things that fascists not only promised, but delivered.

>>16775519
That's democracy

>>16768655
Yes, effectively. Fascists like to pussyfoot around the issue with endless qualifiers, but at the end of the day it is right wing authoritarianism. The more qualifiers fascists can put on fascism, the less likely they are to get called out for being fascist.

>>16769148
Jews have already negotiated that peace. In it, you live and die (of infection) in a favela.

>>16768692
give an example of a fascist state that wasn't right-wing authoritarian or a right-wing authoritarian state that doesn't have fascist tendencies.
>>16769060
source

>>16775542
Woops this was for:
>>16768680

>>16775519
There is more evidence the Jews did 9/11 than there is the NSDAP burned down the Reichstag. Much, much more.

>>16771571
>because of no higher purpose
or.... because it was russia and they have a famine every 20 years. or because Mao literally killed millions of birds like an idiot. Or because of CIA coups and US sanctions. OR even the fact that the goddamn CIA even said USSR citizens actually had comparable nutrition to people in the US (not that the USSR was good, you're just wrong).

>>16775542
You're wrong about Fascism and I'm a proud to be called fascist.

>>16771619
>communism is direct cause of suffering
wow, big if true, source?
>fascism is directly linked to prosperity,
wow, this sounds great, I'll totally be a fascist if you prove this point. or give any evidence.

>>16775542
If mussolini's italy was "right wing authoritarian" then how was Stalin's USSR not "right wing authoritarian"
"Right wing" means absolutely nothing in this context
>>16775556
>source
You have no idea what fascism is

>>16771647
>fascism isn't an ideology.
Not only is this stupid and obviously wrong, what is even the point of making the claim? This doesn't help the right wing and it doesn't help the left.

>>16772777
Read hegel

>>16775588
Because there is no all encompassing ideology of fascism. Its a blank pattern, it merely describes a process and blueprint of power. If you try to attempt to group all of the fascist states and independent fascist movements together as one entity you end up with an incoherent mess that offers no substance to understanding what fascism is. There are only characteristics you can label as fascist and that you can find in other political ideologies like nazism, francoism, italian fascism, etc. There is no capital F fascism ideology like Liberalism or Imperialism or whatever because any fascist movement by definition appropriates and replicates whatever will lead to their infiltration of power. There is no consistency of how fascist movements get into power, the italians and germans did it differently than the japanese and the spanish and its because fascism is a shapeshifter with no actual belief system.

Any successful fascist movement had to create and imprint their own ideology into the fascist super structure. Nazis first are foremost were Nazis and Nazism is of course a fascist ideology, but you cant understand Nazism if you try to link it to an all encompassing ideology of fascism because it doesnt actually exist. You'll end up with an incoherent meaningless mess and all the retarded qualifiers and ACKSHUALLY's that self proclaimed fascists wont shut the fuck up about.

>>16775737
Read hegel retard

>>16775743
read hegel and you'll come to the conclusion that im right

>>16775586
because fascist italy was far right capitalist and stalinist USSR wasnt. what kind of statement is this

>>16775746
Fascist ideology is literally a continuation of hegelian idealism
>>16775761
How was fascist italy far right capitalist but stalinist ussr not?

>>16775799
>why is the soviet union not right wing
americans i swear to god

>>16775808
You are the one making the claim. Explain yourself.
How do you determine fascist italy is right wing but ussr is not. What is the thought process

You should be imprisoned for your stupidity

>>16775799
>Fascist ideology is literally a continuation of hegelian idealism
you clearly have no idea what you're talking about

>>16775830
Fascist ideology is absolutely hegelian, are you dense?

>>16775829
was italy capitalist? yes. its right wing
what ussr capitalist? no. its left wing

>>16775853
No Italy was not capitalist
You can argue ussr was state capitalist

>>16775839
the sentences you write have no meaning whatsoever.

>>16771731
What lead you to fascism?

>>16775858
youre a fucking retard

>>16775761
>>16775830
>>16775853

>>16775859
How does it not make sense to call fascism hegelian? If I called dialetical materialism hegelian would you not also understand what this means?
>>16775870
You are a fucking retard. How was italy capitalist? What was the USSR's economic system if not state capitalist?

>>16771731
>i did all this nerd shit nobody cared about and never had sex, eventually i got mad nobody had sex with me and became a fascist
many such cases

>>16769132
>Now nothing in the past was Fascism, these guys are beating the commies in the cringe

Are you out of your mind? No one has ever argued that.
Italy was fascist.

>and hold some fairytale utopian view of what it will be like under Fascism it is very childish in nature, maybe akin to Peter Pan syndrome

It would be like Mussolini's Italy if it had ultimately achieved success - which it didn't because, arguably, Mussolini shouldn't have entered the war. A close, much more successful historical comparison would be the Roman empire during the times of Augustus - although it wasn't fascist per se, it was and remains an inspiration.

PS: I am not a fascist, but also not an illiterate imbecile like 99% of the lefties on this board who absolutely refuse to read anything that wasn't written by a left-wing priest

>>16775911
>if all those 30s fascist movements didnt go to war everything would be great!
ok but your problem is that those ideologies were created with the sole purpose of being destroyed in a war of total annihilation as righteous vengeance. You cant say, gee capitalism would be really nice without all the class expolitation, or gee wouldnt it be nice if marxism-leninism didnt descend into totalitarian paranoia. Those are inherent features of the ideologies

>>16775944
>ok but your problem is that those ideologies were created with the sole purpose of being destroyed in a war of total annihilation as righteous vengeance
No they were not

>>16775952
Fascism is a pipeline to war by design. The mechanism of targeting an other as an inherent structural necessity of fascism inevitably leads to internal or external conflict. In the case of Italy it was both.

>>16775989
>Fascism is a pipeline to war by design.
Explain how.
>The mechanism of targeting an other
Not fascism you dumb retard

Can you even name a single book on fascist theory? You are such a dishonest piece of shit

>>16776025
>explain how
i just did you illiterate retard
>it wasnt real fascism!
youre a joke. have sex ya pinhead

>>16776035
>i just did you illiterate retard
No you didn't
You said fascist italy went to war, which makes about as much sense as "democracy is a pipeline to war" because America is constantly at war
>youre a joke. have sex ya pinhead
Why do I even bother...

>>16775944
>those ideologies were created with the sole purpose of being destroyed in a war of total annihilation as righteous vengeance

No, they were not.

>Those are inherent features of the ideologies

No, they aren't.
See: franquismo, a very close ideology which did not end in war, but rather dissolved itself slowly into a form of monarchical Western liberalism.
See also the Roman empire in its centuries of glory, a great historical inspiration to the fascist movement.

>>16775989
>Fascism is a pipeline to war by design

Not necessarily.
Yet, if it goes into war, the goal of fascism is that it ends in victory. How can you be so illiterate as not to realize this?

>>16776035
>it wasnt real fascism!

Not the guy you're replying to, but I REPEAT that NOBODY is using the "it wasn't real fascism" argument, because indeed IT WAS real fascism in Mussolini's Italy
The fact that it did not succeed (i.e., lost the war) does not mean that it will never succeed under other historical circumstances, anymore than the fact that Catholicism didn't succeed very well in its first centuries didn't mean that it was doomed to fail for ever - indeed, it eventually triumphed over Paganism.

>>16776089
rome was not a reactionary fascist state.
>The mechanism of targeting an other as an inherent structural necessity of fascism inevitably leads to internal or external conflict
>internal conflict
are we just going to forget the spanish civil war or what?

Neither the nazi or italian wars even remotely had the possibility of succeeding. They were essentially death cults bent on destruction whether they consciously knew it or not.

>The fact that it did not succeed (i.e., lost the war) does not mean that it will never succeed under other historical circumstances
well it cant exist anymore because states no longer have monopolies on power so who gives a shit. the fact of the matter is that fascism by design leads to conflict and often there isnt even the intention that the conflict will lead to anything other than their own destruction.

>>16776250
>rome was not a reactionary fascist state.
Fascism isnt reactionary
>are we just going to forget the spanish civil war or what?
Francoists weren't fascists and they weren't the ones in power. They attempted to overthrow the republican government
>Neither the nazi
Never refered to themselves as fascist
>or italian wars even remotely had the possibility of succeeding.
Such is the case when you fight against usery and finance capitalism
>They were essentially death cults bent on destruction whether they consciously knew it or not.
Yeah fighting the international banking system is a suicidal but noble endeavor
>well it cant exist anymore because states no longer have monopolies on power so who gives a shit. the fact of the matter is that fascism by design leads to conflict and often there isnt even the intention that the conflict will lead to anything other than their own destruction.
You don't know what fascism is

>>16776250
>rome was not a reactionary fascist state.

Fascism is revolutionary.
Have you ever read a single primary source on this subject? Sai leggere l'italiano?

>are we just going to forget the spanish civil war or what?

Which they won. Have you forgotten what we were discussing?

>Neither the nazi or italian wars even remotely had the possibility of succeeding

Hindsight, and at any rate irrelevant, because the leaders didn't think so.
Or are you suggesting that the whole WWII was an intentional suicide attempt by Mussolini and Hitler? Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

>well it cant exist anymore because states no longer have monopolies on power so who gives a shit

I disagree. Can you prove that for Russia?
Also, if that were the case, would that situation be eternal? Can you offer definitive proof of this? Can you offer definitive proof that history can't change?

>>16775737
Neither the Japanese nor the Spanish were fascist.

>>16775761
>Italy
>Far right capitalist

My sides

>>16775868
That's a difficult question to answer. I was so deeply committed into communism that there was no one thing that made me changed sides. I hear a lot of people say "oh I was a communist, but then I read X / met a victim under communism / realized capitalism is actually great / "grew up" and that absolutely wasn't me. It was a very slow multifaceted realization on all fronts - political, economic, and cultural - where over time I started to understand that the issues that plague society run much deeper than what Marxism is capable of explaining.

To better answer your question, I think one of the most important moments to transitioning away from communism was when I realized that many aspects of tradition I found abhorrent did not exist simply "we've always done it this way" but because long ago when these traditions were first created, they were done so as a solution to address a problem. In other words, we can look at aspects of our culture like homophobia, slutshaming, believing in God, non-secular marriage, gender roles, and grasp that there actually was or still is a well-intentioned purpose to all of them. Even something as ridiculous in the Bible as "don't eat shellfish" - it's not there for no reason other than "muh tradition", it's there because back in those days shellfish was unsafe to eat. It also means that some of the most oppressive aspects of society are not there just to hurt people. Religion is not just about controlling the masses. Religion actually does serve a profound role in promoting social cohesion and supporting a greater level of social complexity. You don't need to believe in God or be religious at all to see that religion has a materialistic benefit. This all doesn't necessarily mean "all tradition is good and must be perfectly preserved", but that each tradition must be examined for their purpose, their purported benefit, and if it is still valuable to our society or should be usurped by something new.

Mind you, even after this realization I was still a communist. But it was one of the things that led me here.

>>16775868
>>16777031
Actually I do want to add one more thing that I thought was important.

I had come to terms with the reality that the world is senselessly cruel. There is no reason why things will turn out well, there is no reason why a criminal will get his justice, or a victim will be redressed. There is no underlying principle of the world where no matter the course of events, things will turn out "right". Suffering is the default state of nature.

If you could only choose to protect a handful of people from this cold nature of the world, who would you protect first? The right answer of course, would be your family and your closest friends or those you care deeply for. They are your respite from a miserable existence. They give you joy and purpose. If it came to choosing the lives of your family over that of the family of strangers, you would choose your family every time. Even if those strangers are more virtuous than you or anyone you care for, you would still have them suffer so that your family doesn't. You would commit a selfish, barbaric, immoral, evil act if it meant protecting them. You would do all of this because of love.

Love transcends all notions of good and evil, right and wrong. Love is more important than any ethical consideration, and more powerful than moral duty. Love is why entire civilizations go to war and are brutally annihilated. Love is why no matter how much of a good person you think you are, you too would throw away your integrity in a heart beat.

No matter how I sliced it "liberation of humanity" doesn't interest everyone, and communists do ruthlessly put their own interests above all. Reactionaries and fascists who want to murder every single communist do so out of love for that which they want to protect: their nation, their culture, their reason to live.

As a communist, I thought all the senseless violence in history and people dying for nothing more than imaginary lines and religion was stupid and reason to abolish such silly illusions so that suffering and cruelty would no longer be an inevitability. But it turns out that when you take away everything people are willing to die for, you take away everything they are willing to live for as well. The nation, the family, the culture, and God are for the overwhelming majority of people the only things that keep them going in a world that is inherently uncaring, unjust, and cruel.

>>16769109
you really have like all of reality backwards lol

Fascism is the best form of democracy

>>16769396
>gives a grotesque response
Kind of proving his point famalam

>>16769396
>Fascism promotes natural hierarchy
kind of makes it hard to explain the prison camps and executions

>>16780941
Between 1922 and 1940 12,310 political opponents were arrested in Fascist Italy.
Do you know what these numbers are for the USSR?

this thread is embarrassing

is the book worth a read

>>16768680
Yes
Ignore the LARP'ers and poltrolls

>>16781028
Is not even about the book