/lit/ - Literature

>>16688380
Muslims get the rope, too.

>>16688386
fpbp

>>16688386
You aren't going to do a thing

>>16688386
Houellebecq understood it best. Islam will win in Europe because it stands for something, while the nihilistic atheism of the West stands for nothing.

>>16688416
Peter Hitchens says the same

https://twitter.com/AspiringSenin/status/1150878329379180550?s=19

The aesthetic isn't always the religious, but the religious is always the aesthetic. An iconoclast like Kierkegaard wouldn't understand. You're making false dichotomies when there's only agreement.

>>16688491
The fact that you can't distinguish religious from aesthetic doesn't mean that religion is just a subcategory of aesthetic. Your inability to go beyond aesthetic values makes you spiritually impoverished and confined to a Brogia sensibility of what religion is, a cosmetic understanding

>>16688500
I'm not making the religious a subcategory of the aesthetic, but you're unironically making the aesthetic a subcategory of the religious when there isn't a necessary subjection. Yours is a religion where the creature is not a reflection of the beauty of the creator but a deprivation, where the creator remains as a unknown and unreachable mystery to the creature yet at the same time contradictory, since as Chateaubriand pointed out, when there's mystery there's beauty. An immanent deity, a machine. Fideistic garbage that has no place among those who truly love God.

>>16688686
Aesthetic isn't a subcategory or the religious, it is (as Schmitt observes) a different domain.

Unreachable and immanent are contrary. Please untangle your thoughts better

>>16688808
yes I meant trascendent, my fault.

>>16688844
This is pure kibr, feeling resentment that God is above creation. And anyway in Islam He isn't regarded as unknown, He communicates with humanity, describes His actions toward humanity and what they have been and will be, He describes Himself extensively, and the beatific vision is given to the believers in paradise, they see Him directly. However that is not possible in current forms as Moses found out when He asked to see God and God revealed Himself or part of Himself to a mountain and it was obliterated.

>>16688380
Is Kierkegaard the new Guenon? Some guy was trying to shill Spinoza a little while ago, but I think Kierk has better staying power

>>16688380
I agree but it seems to me that technology is able to mobilize aesthetics in a way that makes it more powerful than morality and the religious - to the point it subsumes the two.

>>16688882
I don't know what the Q'ran says about that Moses episode, but in the Bible he is able to see God's back. So although God is trascendent, he in his immanence is perceptible to humans. This is the meaning of the glory of God, and beauty is one of it's manifestations. When Moses left the sacred offices in the mount Tabor, part of the glory of God was attached to him in a form of radiance in his face. You're saying the beauty of God is different inferior subset from God himself, when aesthetic beauty is only the visual reality of God from which lesser beauties participate. Then you might say that the beauty needs a necessarily inferior observer who is unable to comprehend God in his fullness, being beauty only an appearance or an abstract form in the mind of the observer but it's clear that God could observe his own beauty, or the Beauty in it's pure form.

>>16688975
https://peopleoftawhid.org/technology-as-a-mode-of-secular-liberal-theology/

>>16689005
Yes during the Babylonian captivity Jews revised the Bible a lot and mixed the commentary including folk stories with the actual text.

The rest of what you're saying sounds like reification of beauty

>>16689022
It's not a deification of beauty, is that God is himself beauty, truth and goodness all at the same time. They all are ontologically one and the same. Saying otherwise is implying that God is above goodness (therefore not good) nor beautiful nor true.

>>16689077
I said reification not deification

>>16689082
The same applies.

>>16689096
The same doesn't apply. Your whole premise relies on the idiosyncracy of Greek, it's semantics. Other languages can distinguish between comely and righteous

>>16688686
If you're comparing Islam to Christianity Islam is a lot less mysterious. In Christianity you have the Trinity and the mysteries of the church. In Islam all you have is Alif Lam Meem and the esoteric reading of the Qur'an, the latter of which is only taken up by mystics.
This is the usual criticism of Islam, that it is too immanent and not mysterious enough. It was Hegel's criticism of the Aristotelian Islamic philosophers and it's the one most seen on this board. Are you going for the criticism that claims that Allah is too far from humanity since he didn't come down to die for our sins or something along those lines?

>>16688380
The Aesthetic is the manifestation of the Ethical and the True. The True is the manifestation of the Aesthetic (e.g. mathematical beauty). The Ethical is the manifestation of the True (i.e. what is good is true).
They are not mutually exclusive and placing the Aesthetic as the highest is not inherently bad. Only if it comes at the cost of the others does it become a problem. Personally I would rather live in a society that values the aesthetic-romantic than one that focuses on moralisms.

kierkergaard is a loser. the work of art is the original site of man. to create a work of art is to bring something from nonbeing to being. religion and morality higher than that? please.

>>16689197
Ratios used for various proportions represent truth? What. This is like saying money is truth and truth is money because numbers are used in accounting

>Personally I would rather live in a society that values the aesthetic-romantic than one that focuses on moralisms.

You do, it's called consumerism

>>16689214
>to create a work of art is to bring something from nonbeing to being
A good reason why image making (that details the face) is prohibited in Islam, there is serious arrogance and confusion here

>>16689225
yeah I mean bringing something from nonbeing into being doesn’t mean you’re creating something which is a representation or something which otherwise corresponds to reality or whatever.

I dont give a fuck, Platonism shits on Kierkegaard

>>16688887
>Some guy was trying to shill Spinoza
That was accfag

If God is not the Good, then morality is irrelevant, shut the fuck up moralfaggots, learn your place in the hierarchy of Being

>>16689268
Yeah I mean pretty much everything does. The only thing Kierkergaard was good for? Heidegger.

>>16689214
Retard

>>16689245
Crafting things obviously goes beyond "art" it includes homes and clothing. Reproduction is beyond both

>>16689268
Platonism is literally just word games to justify ridiculous levels of reductionism, it's like Achilles and the tortoise except unironically

>>16689280
Carl Schmitt was heavily influenced by him and if we're honest all the existentialists of the 20th Century are worthless by comparison to him

>>16689285
Okay but I said art specifically buckaroo. Homes and clothing are art btw. I’m not sure what reproduction and image making have to do with each other.
>>16689281
Buttblasted little homo can’t stand that his metaphysics are worth less than the bin I tossed them in
>>16689289
Schmitt is great for sure (and it brings me great joy he has been appropriated by people like Agamben and Mouffe) but Kierkergaard is nowhere near as impressive as Heidegger. All the other existentialists are complete shit though you are correct about that

>>16688416
>>16688440
By the second generation all western Islamic women operate onlyfans pages, and the men either become club promoters/car salesmen or become seething radicalized Incels.
The big spooky threat to liberalism of a people who actually believe in something requires a constant influx from the third world, and even if that immigration never ended these earnest newcomers would eventually be a drop in the ocean of degenerate modernized "cultural" Muslims.

>>16689425
Your error is that you think that ideas are no different from identities.

>>16689308
>buckaroo
>moufefag
Jesus Christ this board is shit

>>16689488
Europe will go from being post-christian to being post-muslim. Big whoop, losing is losing.

>>16689425
Islam doesn't even allow immigration to the kufri lands, most of the women who do are like the extreme cut of liberalism in the Muslim world it's just that's ultra conservative by western standards. Of course if you stick a child from any background through western schools it will totally corrupt him. The only Muslim women in the west who are consistently solid are those raised by Tablighi families because they are only in the west for missionary work among Muslims and homeschool all their children and don't let them interact with kuffar.

>>16689425
I am third generation and we don't use onlyfans

>>16690218
this is such a stupid post, I can't believe how limited in your understanding you are

>>16690414
I can't believe how limited in understanding you are. Do you know the ruling on freemixing?

>>16688380
Can you not have an aesthetic-moral-religious pluralism, they seem like related but separate aspects of life. Most people are not totally absorbed by one of these modes in everything they do, and some sort of balance is probably better anyway.

>>16690429
Not really, each expects primacy, trying not to give any priority is inauthentic

the beautiful is good, the good is god q.e.d.

>>16690441
I don't think that's true though, we shift between 'modes' of perception and engagement all the time naturally. If anything it seems inauthentic to try to force everything into one box, to see everything from one lens.

>>16689214
Retard.

>>16690455
>>16689104

>>16690460
Of course, but this isn't about subsuming one domain in another but giving one a primacy when there is conflict

>>16688416
Nothing but scornful laughter for delusional tradfags desperately convincing themselves that some kind of zealous religiosity has to reimpose itself at some point, because they can't stand the fact that materialism has won, completely and utterly, and that nobody takes their superstitions seriously any more.

China is the only serious foreign alternative to Western liberalism, and they're even more atheistic. Islam is a joke, and its countries would be forgotten backwaters if a few hadn't stumbled into some importance by virtue alone of having oil under their soil.

>>16690494
>economic growth is infinite

>>16688380
In the last 6 months I only picked up books based on their aesthetic value. I don't regret a single minute of it.

P.S. Joyce was right.

>>16691174
Joyce was cringe.

>>16688380
Kierkegaard himself was a retarded romantic in his own way. If he was a sensible person he would have married that girl he was in love with. Perceptive my ass, the guy was just high on his own pious farts

>>16688380
>Religious > moral > aesthetic

“Religion” is a compound category which necessarily includes moral, aesthetic, and ritualistic topics. Religion is not completely distinct from the moral and aesthetic. Religion in deeply religious communities, like the early Puritans of America, was maximally moralistic; all aesthetics was oriented and subservient to the religious, and most public rituals were as well. Or look at the Medieval period. In the Church the Bible reading was always broken down tropologically. Church was the most aesthetically pleasing aspect of Medieval existence in every possible sensory way: by smell, by sight, by ear, by spatial representation; during feasts, by taste and texture, and social ordering.

The problem is this invention of a “West” divorced from any guiding principle. Fascism was a way to guide the West by principle but it failed. The West without a guiding Image, without a recognition of its White history, without rituals, is simply a collection of economic entities led by sociopaths and Jews to make the most money. Of course it’s dying.

more like kikenguard, amirite fellas?

>>16690494
You say all of this, but France is suffering from terror attack after attack, and the percentage of their population that is Muslim only grows. They are clearly winning. I don't like it, but it's the reality.

>>16688380
Why should I care about Kierkegaard? "Genuinely perceptive" just means "I agree with this" more often than not. Nietzscheans see the will to power everywhere, that doesn't mean that it actually is.

>>16692244
Oh no, a whole 5% of France is Islamic according to the 2019 stats. Oh no, radical muslim incels occasionally murder a few people, accomplishing little more than making the average person increasingly despise them. What a great victory.

The Iberian peninsula was almost wholly occupied for centuries and it was reconquered. Meanwhile, you're crying over this minor nuisance as if all hope were lost. Grow some balls.

>>16692367
the one thing that's funny to me is that they worry about saving the western tradition from a territorial perspective, it needs to come from mainland europe, while there are chinese or african scholars who know more about Plato than they will ever accomplish

>>16692406
I could care less about "saving Western civilization", but to say that it's not being supplanted by an Islamic one (in Europe at least) is being willfully blind.

>>16692367
Look at the stats for under-25 year olds.

>>16689222
>Ratios used for various proportions represent truth?
Lmao. This is not mathematics. You've never experienced mathematical beauty? Sad. Fractal symmetries, wholeness, simplicity. If a truth is ugly, it's simply not a truth.
>You do, it's called consumerism
There is nothing beautiful about consumerism. I don't know how you can look at a society that worships the weak and ugly and say that it's focused on the aesthetic.

>>16692406
>it needs to come from mainland europe, while there are chinese or african scholars who know more about Plato than they will ever accomplish
What is your point? There are European scholars that know loads about Chinese or Indian philosophers too, does that mean India or China can just not care about their civilizations?

>>16688380

disgusting saying and i don't give a fuck about what you intended with this thread.

>>16692595
What's disgusting about it?

>>16692635
it is sexist you faggot

>>16692903
Yet a husband isn't given such a reward for pleasing his wife, so in fact it is a great opportunity she has that he doesn't

>>16689425
This is some next level eurogroid wish fulfillment cope

>>16689425

>>16692903
Oh no not that

>>16692915

what if her husband is an asshole? then she doesn't go to heaven thanks to being forced to marry an asshole. Just fuck off with your dark age fairytale. Enough people have suffered and died thanks to religion and you're just perpetuating the backwards mindset.

Don't reply to this because there's no point in arguing about it since the fact that you believe in a god basically proves you're immune to argument. Please do fuck off, however.

>>16694769
That's nice and all, but atheism is losing ground in the West to Islam for a reason. Clearly people are finding something in religion that they can't in atheism.

>>16690398
>he doesn't know

>>16689425
winning

>>16688380
I agree op.

>two philosophers give their presuppositions about aesthetics and religion's superiority over it, and this, in some unexplained way, must be unavoidably true and not just a preference of those authors
Damn OP, we enlightened and God-fearing noaw.

>>16688380
You make a poor appeal to authority in the beginning, invalidating the rest of your post.
Come up with an actual reason for your question rather than "I said you believe this because someone else said something and I am applying it to you".