/lit/ - Literature

>>16651556
Do you consider that farts are music? If so yes. If not no.

>>16651556
Only Germans think that. The answer is no.

>>16651556
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWFDmetc59k
Truely, this is the highest form of art that literature cannot express.

Higher yes, more intellectual no.

>>16651556
Literature can be music too, while music can't be literature. Draw your own conclusions.

Yes and whoever disagress is wrong, simple as
>>16651568
The Germans are right, the greatest works of literature are literal songs and music has done more for Christianity than the Bible.

>>16651556
No. Impossible to establish a hierarchy between art forms. Bach is as much of a genius as Goethe.

>>16651649
>impossible
>18th and 19th c. german references
Tell me how I know you're wrong

>>16651664
there's no relevant art that isn't German or Greek. And yes, I count Shakespeare and Dutch painters as German and Italian Renaissance as Greek.

>>16651649
What’s it like being filtered?

>>16651681
Your brain is a shallow cesspool

>>16651556
no, it's the perfect Dionysus to literature's Apollo though

>>16651681
Cringe

>>16651556
Define higher.
Define intellectual.
Define art.

>>16651681
autism
probably a kraut

All is same same. Why you make difficult?

>>16651731
Filtered by what? Your post makes no sense.

Music really can't be compared to literature. They both go hand in hand with each other but fulfill different needs. Literature stimulates your brain and provides intellectual knowledge. Music stimulates your soul and provides knowledge of yourself.

Both are needed for human survival.

>>16651556
absolutely not

>>16651874
humans can survive without eyes or ears

>>16651681
>I count Shakespeare and Dutch painters as German and Italian Renaissance as Greek.
Extremely based

>>16651556
Music Is Samsaric in nature. Every note, There and then gone. The Highest forms of art have a permanence, aka Painting, Sculpting or Architecture. I believe if Architecture was taken all the way it would with no doubt be the best of those three.

Why is 4chan filled with so many faggots like >>16651874 >>16651681 >>16651649 inventing flimsy imaginary boundaries because their shriveled brains can't connect the relations between things?

>>16653356
>Painting, Sculpting or Architecture
None of those things have any more permanence than music

>>16651556
Only language speaks to the soul and can be rightfully called an art, as there is no philosophy to music that not must first pass through language.

>>16651681
>France

>>16653377
Language is a prison

>>16653375
Apart from, you know, their permanence.

>>16653377
Fucking idiot, what is this vague construct you call a soul, and why is it you think that music doesn't directly contact it?

>>16653389
>Apart from, you know, their permanence.
idiot

>>16653385
All form is a 'prison' but that doesn't stop painters from painting on canvas

>>16653389
>>16653393
None of those have any real permanence, not even music. But musical traditions stay intact longer than adherence to massed arts.

>>16653390
Start with the Greeks

>>16653395
Art is peaking into the sublime beyond the constraints of language. Poetry is similar in the sense that it's using language to try and express something beyond expression

>>16653406
You clearly haven't.

>>16653405
The only thing that's permanent is impermanence.

>higher
>more intellecual
Loaded words here. Are we comparing the opinions of the consumer or the maker? Because the makers on both sides are for sure smarter than the consumers and have relate differently with their medium.

I will say that a piece of music can shake you to the core as much as book, but you have to listen to the right stuff.

>>16653415
No, stupid. Quit reciting dipshit slogans and learn more.

>>16653413
Good one bro did you read that in Plato

>>16651556
Yes. Mozart can say in just 5 bars what novelists fumble around trying to say and ultimately fail to say in 500 page tomes. It cuts right to the essence of things and takes you straight out of yourself and into a place of pure aesthetic contemplation. Read Schopenhauer on music.

>>16653428
t. pseudo neo-platonist midwit

>>16651571
Bachian

>>16653444
>Mozart can say in just 5 bars what novelists fumble around trying to say and ultimately fail to say in 500 page tomes.
prove this baseless claim that misinterprets schopenhauer you pseud.

>>16653409
If there is something 'beyond expression' its a philosophical truth, not wordless sound

>>16653444
>"do do do, do-do-do-do-do-do, do do-do, do do do do do do" - Mozart

>>16653464
>underrating mozart

>>16651855
Cope.

>>16653470
I wonder how one can "rate" Mozart at all without recourse to literature

>>16651556
novelists are failed poets and poets are failed musicians. who would rather be a great poet than a great composer?

>>16653470
no, fucking faggot, they're pointing out vibrational waves can't communicate particulars as conveniently as words. your stupid uninformed claim about mozart and schop shame both figures. you don't even deserve to speak their names you dipshit.

>>16653486
seethe harder virgin

>>16653444
>Read Schopenhauer on music.

Quick rundown?

>>16653492
the rundown is that they dont know what theyre talking about. all they can do is make stupid claims and limply insult back when called on it.

>>16653492
Quick rundown is exactly expressed in his post. Music directly expresses the nature of the noumenon.

>>16653457
>its a philosophical truth
pseudo "intellectual" cope

>>16653492
>No wonder that Schopenhauer was the darling of composers in the 19th and 20th centuries, for he argued that music has a truly exceptional status among the arts and uniquely reveals the essence of the “in itself” of the world. Music that affords such insight—the only music he deems worthy of the name—is Classical/Romantic, non-programmatic music without a text, or what was termed late in the 19th century, “absolute music.” Unlike all of the other arts, which express or copy the Ideas (the essential features of the phenomenal world), Schopenhauer affirmed that music expresses or copies the will qua thing in itself, bypassing the Ideas altogether. This puts music and the Ideas on a par in terms of the directness of their expression of the thing in itself (WWR I, 285). In order to understand Schopenhauer’s reasoning for this rather stunning view of the cognitive significance of music, one needs to pay attention to the role of feeling in Schopenhauer’s epistemology, and especially to the feeling of embodiment that a subject can experience by attending to ordinary acts of volition.
>It is the feeling of embodiment—the intuitive, immediate knowledge that one wills when, for instance, one wills to raise one’s arm—that is monumentally significant for Schopenhauer in his identification of the Kantian thing in itself with will. First-personal knowledge that one wills is immediate, rather than inferred from observation, according to Schopenhauer, and is shorn of all of the forms of the PSR (including space, causality, and even being-an-object-for-a-subject) with one exception, the form of time.
>Similarly, Schopenhauer holds that the experience of “absolute” music (music that does not seek to imitate the phenomenal world and is unaccompanied by narrative or text), occurs in time, but does not involve any of the other cognitive conditions on experience. Thus, like the feeling of embodiment, Schopenhauer believes the experience of music brings us epistemically closer to the essence of the world as will—it is as direct an experience of the will qua thing in itself as is possible for a human being to have. Absolutely direct experience of the will is impossible, because it will always be mediated by time, but in first-personal experience of volition and the experience of music the thing in itself is no longer veiled by our other forms of cognitive conditioning. Thus, these experiences are epistemically distinctive and metaphysically significant.

read the world as will and representation

>>16653505
>Music directly expresses the nature of the noumenon.
Why do post-kantians pretend they're talking about the Kantian noumenon when they're clearly not since he was explicit that we can't say anything about it.

>>16653535
Schopenhauer says it's a metaphysical hypothesis. He claims with can't prove it, but he says we have enough evidence to at least suggest it.

>>16653524
>Unlike all of the other arts, which express or copy the Ideas (the essential features of the phenomenal world), Schopenhauer affirmed that music expresses or copies the will qua thing in itself, bypassing the Ideas altogether.
Why and how? There's little substance to this claim when examined.

>but does not involve any of the other cognitive conditions on experience.
Neither does masturbation.

I directly experience the nature of Schopenhauer posters in that they can only copy and paste, being braindead idiots.

>>16653535
That poster's a faggot who doesn't read. The Schop greentext better represents Schop, but Schop clearly has many holes in his arguments.

>>16653588
>That poster's a faggot who doesn't read. The Schop greentext better represents Schop
The poster:
>Music directly expresses the nature of the noumenon.
The greentext:
>Schopenhauer affirmed that music expresses or copies the will qua thing in itself
What the fuck are you talking about? Fuck off.

>>16651556
>Is music a higher, more intellectual art form than literature?
>higher
>more intellectual
The summit of art is in the heart, not in the intellect, therefore, the answer is: no, not necessarily; the heights that music achieves with quick directness, literature matches with mediative depth.

>>16653602
hahahaha fucking retard you even greentexted the contradiction

>>16653606
>heart
shitty vague word just like soul or spirit. none of you faggots using those words have any real standards.

>shitty vague word just like soul or spirit. none of you faggots using those words have any real standards.
To the mediocre & vulgar sublety is equivalent with vagueness, and standards are alienated from substance.

>>16653666
That poster is deranged. Take a look at the first post he replied to see what he thinks a contradiction is, lmao.

>>16653666
>subtlety

try to define heart, soul, or spirit in the context you use them so i can show you how much of a contradictory idiot you are.

your shitty post can apply to either side, another instance of vagueness and lack of standards.

>>16653636
Dumbass, the fixed definition isn't really the point, but the description of an economy of meaning in which art is related to the heart or the soul

i hate my parents so much for not letting me pick up an instrument as a child

>>16654059
What could you ever hope to express with an instrument

>>16654063
because of this, only my rage of not being able to better express myself with an instrument

>>16654055
art isnt related to the heart or soul, its related to the ass

>>16654074
Yes only a highly standardised order of sounds and intervals could express that

>>16654083
I don't know how you could look at any history or theory of art and conclude it has nothing to do with the soul, whatever the soul actually is

>>16654063
>>16654086
he doesnt know lmao

>>16654090
thats my point, no cowardly faggot here can define muh soul because they know their lack of intellect and experience is too low to provide a satisfactory definition. thus a nebulous concept like the heart, etc, is free to repurpose, and is simply the ass.

>>16651681
bro but like english isnt really close to german
like bro
its closer to latin, its mostly latin, i mean the grammar is german, but its not really german
thats like saying that latin and greek are similar because they both are very declension oriented (ie they are grammatically similar)
italian renaissance as greek is very much granted, since they actively tried to imitate the greeks, but i dont think you can make a good case about shakespeare as german
i think youd have an easier time saying that since english is very romantic in its lexicon, and due to the greek imitation present in the romans, that it was of roman inspiration, this would also be reinforced because shakespeare makes constant reference to both Christianity (roman and greek) and to greek gods (greek) and as well he was very fond of all things italian (greek through renaissance), in addition his julius caeser makes him overtly romanesque, the tempest also emphasizes greek spirituality
but really all of these are incredibly arbitrary and good art is good art theres no reason to chop it up to nationality
because otherwise whats your answer for other beautiful works of art?
what of tolstoy? what of descartes? what of newton? what of melville?

>>16651681
>1681
>the same year that Shakespeare released King Lear
>>16653344
Blessed by digits.

Extremely based indeed. Philosophy is either German or Greek. Art is soulless without philosophy.

>>16654167
>shakespeare died in 1616
>first folio published in 1623
>king lear was included in that volume
what the FUCK did he mean by this

>>16654184
he means
>Philosophy is either German or Greek
ie german and greek philosophy is for stupid faggots like him

>>16651566
https://youtu.be/I4yKE8q1uAE

>>16654199
i mean bro but like what about hume descartes newton enlightenment people (i know its cringe but theyre still 'relevant') also i think its really ignorant of the middle eastern influence in all of that ie egypt mesopotamia israel
i mean the greeks got the alphabet from egypt

>>16654130
You haven't repurposed it you've replaced it in some smug way to act as regulator without actually adding anything to the conversation.

>>16654184
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_King_Lear

>>16654063
Cope harder musiclet. I can say more about the human condition with one strum off the guitar than you could in an entire novel, faggot.

>>16654125
>a minor chord means it's sad

>>16654288
If you have to express the human condition through something exterior to a human person you've probably made a step wrong

>>16654284
wow adding to a conversation with nothing in it, what a concept

>>16654288
an idiot like you could type a novels worth of this tripe and it would be worth less than the strum of one fart

>>16654308
'nothing' is as arbitrary as 'soul' and 'heart' ... what exactly are you doing here?

>>16654291
>he doesnt know that a major seventh chord is the saddest chord
>he doesnt know that it all about the relation of chords, their movement, and the intervals between them
>he doesnt know.............................

>>16654315
And people say language is a prison!

>>16654320
i have zero clue what youre talking about, all your replies indicate to me a lacking of basic english understanding
music is an incredibly free medium, but also incredibly strict
you can do anything, but it needs to be honest and true
the same is true for every artistic medium
words, to the extent that you can master your native tongue by the time youre 20 easily, are free and relieving, but it still must be true and honest, and that is the hardest part of all art

>>16654328
>honest
>true

What?

>>16654336
o boy youre actually a twelve year old, im sorry
janieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees clean up in aisle three

>>16654336
hes just a schizo faggot move on

music freaks sure are strange people

>>16651594
>Literature can be music too, while music can't be literature. Draw your own conclusions.
incredibly based quote

>>16654343
You're a cowardly faggot who can't define terms. Art needs to be expressed through the anus.

>>16651649
>Impossible to establish a hierarchy between art forms
How come? A hierarchy can be established for anything, so why not art forms?

>>16654363
he didnt think his post through. he doesnt think much at all.

>>16654354
id say that poetry can be musical, and literature can be to ig to the extent that the author is conscious of his meter (not necessarily an extremely regular one, but easy to read, and in good taste) and perhaps, if the language permits, the specific tone and elevation of the voice in respect to accents and such
>>16654355
art is a reflection of the artist, the more the artists lies are obvious, the worse the art, the artist needs to lie so well that he doesnt catch onto his own lie, this is honesty
truth is the innocuous pursuit of good art and abandoning all ideology and implicit philosophy and simply making art for the sake of art, this is also honesty

>>16654285
you dumb fuck thats the wrong version the tragic ending is better
muh happy ending was written by some hack later on

>>16654369
im not him but what the fuck are you talking about?

>>16654369
Lies aren't a reflection of a liar? Formalistic l'art pour l'art is an ideological and philosophical theory of art that could only have existed in the 19th and early 20th century.

>>16653385
Based

>>16654288
>guitar
Cringe

>>16651572
the only based answer

>>16651594
Are you rarded? If the premise is that music is a higher form of art than literature, why should music 'be able to be literature'?

>>16655079
>knows how to play a few chords on a guitar
>music is the highest form of art
cringe

>>16654315
>he doesn't know that, by correctly using voice leading, it is possible to completely change the feeling of the harmonic progression
>he doesn't know that, by playing with inversions and figured bass, it is possible to write a descending bass line to accompany the chord progression which can also result in the feeling of melancholy
>he doesn't know that...

>tfw music has to be explained by literature in order to be considered high art
>>16648273

Writing is just visual music and the latter being writing without letters

>>16651556
>higher
yes
>more intellectual
no, the least intellectual in fact. and the greatest.

>>16651556
No art form has an inherently higher value than another, theyve all got different incomparable qualities. The only difference is how rich the tradition and development of that art form is. Music has an incredibly rich history in theory and innovation around it, and so does literature.
does that make the two inherently better than say, video games? No, video games just have a very shitty tradition where theyre being assigned the role of low brow kids entertainment. The same with for example comics.

>>16655184
u realize that me using an ellipses means that there was many more things i could have explained but i didnt want to get into it
also
>muh figured bass
classicalfag
i mean i play classical piano but jazz is the wave

>>16651556
reminder that Goethe disliked Schubert's Lieder and wanted simplistic retarded melodies instead because he didn't want the music to surpass his poetry

>>16651556
Music is the most direct and can transfer incredible emotion but there are certain emotions only poetry can grasp though. Music for stimulation, poetry for reflection. I love both.

In summa die edle Musica ist nach Gottes wordt/der höchste Schatz auff Erden. Sie regiret alle Gedanken/sinn/hertz und muth. —Martin Luther

>>16655897
/thread

>>16651556
Why cant my ADD cumbrain appreciate classical music?

I like movie soundtrack songs, but classical just makes no sense to me.

>>16658186
If you're coming from movie soundtracks, start with Wagner, Mahler, Tschaikowsky boom bam boom epic music. Then Beethoven, Mozart and Bach, first the orchestral/choral works, then the more subtle quartets and solos. After that do whatever you want.

>>16653375
Yes they do, when someone turns it off, it no longer exists. The fact that it can be summoned or unsummoned at any time means it's less permanent than something which remains in a museum for hundreds of years.

>>16651556
>The inexpressible depth of all music, by virtue of which it floats past us as a paradise quite familiar and yet eternally remote, and is so easy to understand and yet so inexplicable, is due to the fact that it reproduces all the emotions of our innermost being, but entirely without reality and remote from its pain.

>Music is the onomatopoeia of the inexpressible [...]

It is higher, I don't know about "intellectual". If your answer is no you have never truly listened to Bach, Beethoven and many others, and you soul is poor

>>16651556
They're equals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kcOpyM9cBg

>>16658186
just listen to it in the background until your brain gets used to it then you can listen to it like any other music (this kinda works with any genre you're not familiar with)
it worked for me

>>16658186
You need at least a basic understanding of theory to appreciate classical, especially a good understanding of the musical forms. Normally you would get this from learning an instrument, particularly piano.
You enjoy movie soundtracks because they emphasise melody. As >>16658255 has said, orchestral stuff is food for getting into classical. Beethoven's symphonies are great for this, listen to Nos. 3, 5, 6, 7, and 9. Focus on how themes are introduced and developed throughout each movement.

>>16659738
cringe and pretentious post

>>16659738
>You need at least a basic understanding of theory to appreciate classical
no you don't.

>>16660521
How so? You're not going to get anything out of listening to a fugue without knowing what a fugue is.

All appreciation of any art, whether music or literature, is cultural or programmed into us. You are asking if sounds or words are higher, the answer is neither.

>>16660622
music is better able to express the feeling of the sublime because the sublime is ineffable.

>>16660567
uhhbhh the fish??? yeah thats right headass nigga i will listen to whatever i want because i think it sounds cool

Younger people, with a less sophisticated understanding of art, tend to prefer music.

>>16651556
Sometimes, but only because they intersect.

>>16651556
Beethoven invented ragtime?!

>>16661452
Shit take

>>16661465
I've never claimed to be one of a particularly good mind.