/lit/ - Literature

>>16647976
The Torah
he
T or ah

>>16647976
You're unable to distinguish ideology from relations of production.

>>16647980
I’m tired

Stonetoss is a Nazi

>>16647997
And that's a good thing!
>>16647983
In English please.

>>16647992
Yeah well get used to it palyou’ve go r sixty years of wage mMmk mmm a I’m mmmm mmm jim mmm mmm I’m mmmm hmmmm CB fm um Jim umm I’m I’m hmm I’m in esh San gm um tv tv ™ um
Z mmm mmm m:’ koo I’m I’m
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2&: a po m saw wow

You mean how China is capitalist?

Their method to achieving communism is state centralized capitalism. Vanguardism. Leninism. Read some of that and understand why socialists say “it wasn’t really communism”

>>16647976
This is the reality

>>16648004
Fuck you dude don’t be a dick

>>16648023
>Reddit edit
>Not real Marxism™

>>16648023
There we go.

>>16648051
It’s the truth though. Don’t credit re**it

>>16648025
Shut the fuck up nigger. I will not I’ms

>>16648070
Then fucking don’t tell me that I am if I do

>>16647976
Mein Kampf

>>16648003
Just because a state has a hammer and sickle on their flag doesn't mean they're in any way interested in communisation. The Chinese nomenklatura is the capitalist class experiencing the highest rate of return internationally.

Form isn't substance. Flags aren't actions. LARPers aren't communists.

>>16648060
What do SJWs and commies actually disagree on?

>>16648051
>>16648023
Here's another

>>16648087
good post

>>16648090
Where's the joke, Buckley?

>>16648089
economics

reminder

>>16648089
When you’re a liberal you’re not a “commie”

>>16648090
And watch as the some fascists join the tankies to turn the tide and the Red House becomes a seat of dictatorship run by ex CIA

>The state of this thread
It is bizarre to me how much seething Stonetoss generates. S/He's not even that well-known outside of 4chan/Reddit.

>>16648096
"Tankies"

>>16648089
jews

>>16648103
Read Lenin.

>>16648103
>Reminder!
> I keep twinkies on my HD for flapping purposes

>>16648096
October 23 – December 16, 1956

>>16648089
Goals, nothing. However theory of oppression is significantly different between orthodox Marxists and intersectionalists. Orthodox Marxists think all power relationships come down to control over the means of production which ultimately determines culture, whereas the new left gives priority to cultural issues like unconscious racism and sexism and sees emancipation of minorities and women and so forth as a focus in themselves instead of part of a working class struggle

>>16648120
im not a materialist dork that likes to debate "the other side" all day on the internet and jack off
i won't be reading lenin

>>16648137
It isn't just the orthodox who put the relations of production as the primary determinant of struggle. It is also that a lot of actual Marxists understand that differentiation within the working class is a primary tool to break solidarity, and that "the working class" as the proletariat isn't white, male, first world, blue collar. In fact the lie of white men manual workers is deliberately put by bourgeois liberals in order to divide the movement.

Citation given for reference, not exhaustive proof:
Huber, Patrick. "Red Necks and Red Bandanas: Appalachian Coal Miners and the Coloring of Union Identity, 1912-1936." Western Folklore 65, no. 1/2 (2006): 195-210. Accessed October 25, 2020. http://www.jstor.org/stable/25474784..

>>16647976
For My Legionaries

>>16648139
The chap suggestion you read Lenin is a Nazi my friend, you can tell from the white hammer and sickle.

>>16647976
>“One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.”

Basically, socialism attracts weirdos who attach their identity to something, be it their gender, their race, hatred for the upper class, etc.

Coddling of the American mind (or Boys Adrift/Girls on the Edge), can give you a background on how modern culture is raising kids to be spoiled and mentally broken. As a result a large mass are unable to think critically and attach themselves to an ideaology like socialism (Cynical Theories can give more detail on whose steering this in colleges). The corporations and billionaires are filling their companies with college grads bathed in this ideology, and Bernie Sanders popularity scared the piss out of them, so they are trying to pay off the young people driving the woke movement and adopting its symbols, and pushing racial and gender ideology in hopes of pitting the working class against each other so they can't unite and have a socialist or communist revolution.

>>16647976
Read Sorel and Bordiga. Both talked about the problems caused by the left siding with bourgeois liberals against reaction - effectively and willingly turning themselves into nothing more than a standing army for the "enlightened middle classes".

>>16647976
I am a Marxist. This thread is bait but I've had this thought in my head since I first saw this picture, so I will bite.

>First, something to get out of the road as boilerplate.
SJW radlibs are not communists, and communists are not SJW radlibs. Most of the people Stonetoss attacks are purple hair pussyhat radlibs, and most of his attacks on radlibs are pretty well spot-on to be honest. He runs two basic attacks: "why aren't your beliefs cohesive" plus "why does your posturing outpace your actions". These are valid criticisms. But these attacks don't apply to IRL-active communist groups -- if anything, communist groups suffer from a dogmatic excess of coherence in their beliefs (i.e. they want their whole belief system to be totally coherent even if that results in some ideological Twister), and a lot of IRL active communists do nothing BUT organising meetings, union activism, tenancy unions etc. so they don't have time for posturing or much of a social life at all really.

These radlibs also tend to hate anyone to their left. Even the socialist left of DSA (Bread and Roses, the Jacobin-adjacent faction) comes in for huge amounts of bawwing and whining from the SJW radlib fringe, and it only gets worse as you track out towards actual Marxist-Leninists and the more coherent Anarcho-Syndicalists (as distinct from blackflagger post-left radlibs who call themselves anarchists). Some radlibs do join anarchist, Trotskyist and ML groups for a few years in college but they usually find obscene reasons to split and claim some bizarre moral high ground.

>Substantive Matter
This is why Stonetoss is a fuckwit. The actual action going on in the picture isn't some obscure thing he's discovered, it's among the most openly stated facts of Communist theory. It's in the first chapter of the Manifesto:
>The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part.
Marxists know full well that the bourgeoisie has in the past played a role as a revolutionary element. Only by going through capitalism will we ever have a hope of achieving the technological and social means to develop socialism. The bourgeoisie have no option but to keep pushing history forward, developing new technology, upending "all fast-fixed, frozen relations". The bourgeoisie is driven to constantly revolutionise all aspects of society. All this shit "cultural Marxists" are accused of in terms of degeneracy has nothing to do with Marxism at all - it's just capitalism, and the capitalist ruling class, doing what it always done. Marxists mean to go beyond the limits of capitalism, and that means first enduring it and then overthrowing it.

>>16648538
The original comic has them pulling against a fascist and a libertarian. Of COURSE they're pulling against a fascist and a libertarian!

Fascists are reactionaries, which means they want to go backwards. This is a ridiculous fantasy, because a) things never were as good as the fascist propaganda paints their "golden age" anyway, it never existed, and even if it did b) you can't go backwards without doing a full on Uncle Ted. The Fascists insist on their idiot combination of tradition plus modernism, which means that capitalist always reasserts itself anyway -- a concrete example being the way private fortunes surged ahead under the Nazis, who far from socialising industry and assets for the Volksgemeinschaft actually sped up the existing process of privatisation and worked to put more money in private, capitalist hands. Libertarians, insofar as they believe private property (which can't exist without a strong state anyway) is a paramount good, want the same thing -- which is why they end up pulling with the fascist in the first place.

>>16648023
yeah no

>>16648538
just say youre a tankie and save us the time of reading your drivel

>>16648543
>The literal reality
>mmmmNOPE
What’re ya having trouble with?

>>16647976
Jean Claude Michea's books, most notably the realm of the lesser evil

>>16648553
But I'm not a tankie though, I'm not even M-L.

>>16648559
save for the clinton icon those overlap more with anarchism than liberalism

>>16648571
Most of them partake in identity political bickering. Unless you see them drop that rhetoric for *class* war rhetoric, they’re still just progressives fighting for a soc-dem euro-style US. Taming capitalism is their aim.
Trying lump all lgbt in as commies and anarchists is rightwing IDpol tactic designed to make their numbers go “eeew” as the substantive ideals. Scare people away from joining a workers movement, which is in their interests, because they don’t wanna be kissed by some metrosexual pansexual whatever.

>>16647980
this

>>16648571
Most of them partake in identity political bickering. Unless you see them drop that rhetoric for *class* war rhetoric, they’re still just progressives fighting for a soc-dem euro-style US. Taming capitalism is their aim.
Trying to lump all lgbt in as commies and anarchists is rightwing IDpol tactic designed to make their numbers go “eeew” at the substantive ideals. Scare people away from joining a workers movement, which is in their interests, because they don’t wanna be kissed by some metrosexual pansexual whatever.

the "real" commies who claim to be different from the pink haired tranny commies are usually the biggest drug-abusing layabout sex weirdo faggots themselves

>>16648612
thats just class reductionism
also i never claimed all lgbt people were anarchists or even that many of them are, just that the lgbt movement is more compatibile with an anarchist framework

>>16648540
Fascists didn't want to go backward, that would be nonsense according to actual idealism, nazis weren't fascists. I don't know about private fortunes in fascist Italy but, aside from the obvious quasi complete control of the economy and the syndicalism, they also started a lot of social reforms which for the most part were unseen in the West: all sort of welfare with a big focus on motherhood (they were paid, provided with nurse and free housing i seem to recall) and children, they built a shitload of schools, gave an easy access to culture to millions of italians, etc... they tried to speed up the social reforms during the republic of salo, pushing even further syndicalist policies and workers rights but by that time they lost popular support and people just didn't gave a fuck anymore.
The fact that fascism was born from the thoughts of (heretical) marxists is not emphazised enough in my opinion, they believed that Marx couldn't give answers to underdevelopped countries which couldn't logically see a worker revolution, they believed redistribution would only hamper said revolution and so the first priority was a fast industrialization, that was what fascist italy did. You'll find the same thing with the regimes that imo are actually comparable with fascist italy such as arab socialism and post-maoist China.

>>16648631
>Only class matters
Class reductionism
>Class matters but it's not the only thing
Not class reductionism
>Class doesn't matter, only LGBT/gender/race matters
Not Marxism, not anarchism, not socialism, not communism

See the difference?

>>16648630
>Drug-abusing, layabout
Well then they can't be the real commies I'm talking about then can they? Can't do communism if you're a drug-abusing layabout, it takes too much time.

>>16648637
>nazis weren't fascists
This is otherwise a quality post but come on, what is your alternative term? It is undeniable that Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Romania, Croatia, Hungary, etc can be grouped under the same umbrella, in the same way that Mao's China and the USSR and Cuba and Vietnam were all the same kind of thing even though not identical.

>>16648631
>lgbt movement is more compatible with an anarchist framework
what anon? This might have been true once but now we've got loads of "Young Gay Republicans for Trump", "I want to get married and live a white-picket-fence life but with my gay partner", "we should have more gay police and allow transperxons in the military" and so on, which has nothing to do with anarchism.

>>16648090
basado

>>16648649
My alternative term is: nazi
I don't know enough of nazi doctrine so maybe I'm wrong, i know I should be careful since I'm aware that fascist doctrine is completely misrepresented, but looking at the condition of their birth and some of the most glaring things about them I'd say they are completely different:
- the premice of their ideology is not the same: nazi = race (the xxth century definition of it), fascism = state
- following the last point, fascism is not inherently racist and antisemitic
- fascism was born from marxism, nazism in opposition of it
- Italy was an underdevelopped country with a lack of ressources, germany was an industrial power
-Fascist Italy was NOT against intellectuals and the arts, it was led by intellectuals and artists
- I don't think nazi germany had anything close to syndicalist policies, corporatism maybe though again I don't know
Their common ground: totalitarism, against democracy and parliamentarism, nationalism, cult of the leader, maybe some other things I forget. I don't include the praise of violence because it was mostly something coming from futurists, it was not inherent to fascism (it was not rejected either, fascism is imo pragmatism incarnated). If that's enough to call something a fascist regime, then you'll agree with me that other regimes could be called fascist as well and I'm thinking of some third world marxist countries in particular, even the later USSR fits the bill.

>>16647976
Mark Fisher Capitalist Realism

Any refutation, subversion or critique of capitalism will serve to reinforce capital structure

>>16648023
If it were reality the communist would be killing the anarchist.

>>16648723
That's not what Capitalist Realism is saying. His whole argument in that book is that capitalism is so entrenched that people have difficulty imagining refutations, subversions and critiques.

Which makes the creation and propagation of refutations, subversions and critiques of capitalism all the more necessary. (Also the book is from like 2009 so a lot of anti-capitalist water has flown under the hegemonic bridge since then! Fisher was writing in an age before Occupy, Corbyn, Bernie, DSA, AOC, BLM, Green New Deal etc. There hadn't been any mass mobilisation for years when he wrote that).

>>16648540
>>16648637
Nazis didn't want to go backwards either, as far as I can tell. They were intent on building a modern civilization and had great enthusiasm for science & technology. Does social conservatism mean going backwards, or is it a cyclical response to liberal excesses? Does appreciation of older aesthetic peaks necessitate going backwards? Of course not.

>idiot combination of tradition plus modernism
Modernism, admitted it right there. Except that the combination is natural hierarchy+modernism. It must be understood that capitalism is necessary (barring some radical new technology) to sustain a modern advanced state; capitalism can't be pragmatically abdicated from, only modulated and restrained.

Even neoreactionaries don't advocate for a civilizational return to monke, they are advocating for individuals to shift towards time-tested modes of living in order to weather what they see as an inevitable great decline. This "they want to go backwards" chestnut is a rhetorical misdirection at worst, lazy misunderstanding of the ideological lanscape at best.

>>16648751
About as credible as “1930s in slow motion.”

You don’t pontificate. You act. Then you learn from your failures.

Firstly most of the people /pol/ call communists are just liberals

Secondly companies just virtue signal for good publicity to make a profit

and finally agreeing on something like racism is bad doesn't mean you agree with everything else they do or want the same economic system. taken to the extreme you can say that all vegetarians are bad because Hitler was one

>>16648770
>About as credible as “1930s in slow motion.”
kek what a stupid time that was in left theory
>You don’t pontificate. You act. Then you learn from your failures.
"Just act without theory bro, just like don't even think about it bro,use the force" theory and praxis are chicken and egg, advocating one side without the other is undialectical. You're right that the point of theory is to guide action (rather than to be argued about on bunkerchan), but wrong that you could ever "just act" and achieve any success without theory. Maybe this was a good criticism in the days of the French Revolution or Young Hegelians before we had a 200 year old tradition of revolutionary theory.

>>16648023
They always pull together against anything anti establishment