/lit/ - Literature

I think it's not really about men not wanting to talk about their feelings. It's that nobody wants to hear about them. And that we are not supposed to feel stuff

>>16638771
that's literally the narrative I was just talking about. "Men are told they can't show emotion and that no one cares so they bottle it up. they should be like women and talk about it all the time and cry in from of their friends over everything". Sure, there's truth to the notion that men are expected to be stronger and more stoic than women. and yeah, people care more about women's problems than men's, but why does that necessitate men dealing with their emotions like women. Its been suggested that women can exacerbate their problems by talking about it too much. my point is that we should work with, and not against masculinity when it comes to addressing men's issues. Men SHOULD be strong, stoic, and resolute. at least much more so than women

>>16638722
another attempt to remove differences between sexes and destroy God's creation, ignore those people you hear and call them stupid
Dogs can smell fear and weakness in humans for a reason, theyre not abstract concepts

We don't talk about our emotions and feelings towards things. We talk about the things that give us emotions.
The way men bond to each other is different to women's.

People always think I bottle up all my emotions, but I am just naturally incredibly stoic. Books for this feel?

Maybe Stoner could have avoided raping his wife if he had been willing to communicate more

>>16638903
She was probably worse at communicating than him. Every move he made towards an amicable relationship she turned down.

Haven't read it so I'm not 100% sure its relevant but Absent Fathers, Lost Sons: The Search for Masculine Identity is sort of about this I think.

>>16638722
Fuck's sake /lit/, last thing we need is more pathetic navel gazing on the subject of what is and isn't masculine. The whole process is just another bastard child of identity politics. Gender be damned, the second a thought crops up in your head which contains the words "aspect of masculinity" you should do the rest of us a favor and jump off a bridge.

>>16638903
you cannot get raped if you are a psycho to begin with

>>16638771
I always found talking about it doesn't help. We are told to try and talk about it like women do but it doesn't work.

>>16638771
This. Talking about your feelings like a bitch is how you get women asking pay for "emotional labor".

>>16638771
You missed the point. Women need to vent or they will break down. Men only need to solve the problem or they will want to be alone and contemplate. They like solving things on their own, and talking about it is a form of cope.

>>16639059
Yeah. The last time I opened up to someone it was my ex. she then told her mom despite my expressed desire for it to be kept between us. didn't even make me feel better, aside from some momentary catharsis.

>>16639059
I almost talked about inner problems with a girl last night, but i ended up saying no. I always have this deep impulse to "open up", which comes from the soft bitch attitude i've developed over the years. I'm trying to get over that hurdle but it's not easy.

>>16639357
One would eventually have to with his wife. She'll think you've become distant when big challenges approach.

>>16639448
He only needs to slip small things here and there. Keep her feeling like you're not distant. Not even a wife would want to know all her husband's problems, though.

>>16639448
I know, that's what i long for on most days. Intimacy between husband and wife. I'll have to find someone suitable and trustworthy first.

Or maybe we put too much importance on the need to be understood and "loved". I don't know.

>>16638722
Just read the stoics.

>>16639050
based. imagine letting a reified concept control your every move

>>16638804
>>16638829
>>16639067
These people have mantits.

>>16639649
literally, everyone, even you, does that dipshit. also, trying to understand and live in accordance with your own nature isn't the same thing as being 'controlled' by a concept

>>16639868
yeah we are controlled and do use concepts, but notice that i used the word reified specifically. when you apply metaphysical or total authority to a concept while ignoring that it is humanity that produces, then you're being controlled by it.

the concept of "nature" that you use could either be this, in which you confuse yourself for a concept rather than your material being, your singularity; or you could be refering to a different thing that denotes your singularity. if it's the latter, then you have no reason to put a concept like "masculinity" above your head.

>>16638893
I'm the same. I don't really get bothered by things enough to the point where I feel the need to tell someone about it. Even when shit has got me down I've never come to the conclusion that I had to let people know how I was feeling. The entire concept seems fucking alien to me. Need books for this feel too

>>16638722
>Any books about this much-maligned aspect of masculinity?

Not specifically aimed at men, but very relevant; The School Of Life: An Emotional Education By Alan De Botton
Opening Up By Writing It Down By James Pennebaker (presents summaries of the multiple studies showing how opening up benefits physical and psychological health).

For Men specifically:

King, Warrior, Magician, Love By Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette
Transformation By Robert Johnson

Books on Shame and Violence (A lot of men seem to harbour unacknowledged shame, the following books are IMO best read after King, Warrior, Magician, Lover. Because it compliments the 'shadow masculine archetypes' that are presented.)

Daring Greatly By Brene Brown
Preventing Violence
Beyond Bullying: Breaking The Cycle of Shame, Bullying And Violence By Jonathan Fast (SJW stuff in the book, but if you aren't a rabid right winger, you'll be able to still get great insight from it.)

We men need to deal with shame. Men kill themselves at 3 to 4 times higher than women do. Men make up the majority of alcoholics/drug addicts. Men make up the majority of violent criminals.

>>16640066
>immediately reccomending a book by the School of Life charlatan
HAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>16638804

I think the mistake is thinking that men need to talk about their feelings. Talking about feelings is just one way of processing them, men unfortunately have brought into the notion that harming their emotional well being by not processing their emotions is 'masculine'.

There are men who even advocate men not processing their emotions, and suppressing them, and say that men who do are less masculine.

Men who advocate that IMO are part of the problem, a culture that has; men killing themselves at 3-4 times the rate women do, and making up the majority of alcoholics/drug addicts.

Processing emotions requires expressing them, that can be with someone who is trusted and/or that can be to God or a page. It will require expressing grief, sadness and shame, emotions that will make anyone feel vulnerable. Many men refuse to tolerate any feelings that make them feel vulnerable and try to cover it up with aggression, alcohol, drugs, and work, IME and IMO.

There is nothing effeminate about emotional intelligence, or having a greater emotional capacity to connect with your children. We develop health problems from 'stress' i.e. not taking care of our emotional well being, and we also damage our ability to raise psychologically healthy children if we can't even express with openness that we love our children.

There is no reason to think that a man can't have a high level of emotional intelligence and embody the masculine archetypes found in the book; King, Warrior, Magician, Love By Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette. Like that book talks about, men with trauma/poor emotional intelligence tend to be dysfunctional, abusive or callous men - they become detriments to society.

I've always loved shows and books growing up the depicted warrior archetypes who display a high level of emotional intelligence. E.g. The Contemplative Monks/fighters found in Shaw Brothers Kung Fu Films, who go from having a self centered boy psychology, to having a man psychology that cares about something doing good for others. I never saw those man as effeminate.

In contrast I grew up around men who did see emotional expression as effeminate... I wish I listened/modeled the men in the movies, because it lead me to becoming a phuckin dick, because I was unconsciously looking for catharsis from shame/sadness/grief through psychologically and physically bullying others.

>>16639536
Understanding and loving each other are things that can be learned. Had you already someone in mind? If not, you'll know when you meet her.

>>16640085

What is wrong with the contents of that specific book?

>>16640204
nothing, i haven't read it, i just mistrust De Botton's insights given how his channel is all about transforming real philosophers, their ideas & lives, into self-help platitudes

>>16640214

>just mistrust De Botton's insights given how his channel is all about transforming real philosophers, their ideas & lives, into self-help platitudes

I see, and I agree that the channel does that.

However, that has no bearing on the arguments in that book that emotional education and developing a high level of emotional intelligence - through self-therapy, professional therapy, literature, art, etc. - is a good thing for individuals and society.

I'd be surprised if anyone actually reads it and says that what is argued is a negative thing for society.

>>16640186

You're not wrong. Men do possess and express an emotional intelligence deeper than women in some ways.

>Processing emotions requires expressing them, that can be with someone who is trusted and/or that can be to God or a page

But this right here is completely absent from modernity. Men have absolutely no one to confide in. Other men, maybe, if they're extremely lucky.

>>16640066

Broken book title:

Preventing Violence By James Gilligan

>>16640200
I did have someone in mind, though we are much too different in our beliefs and our way of thinking right now, which makes me wonder if starting a family together with this sort of dynamic is too reckless and unwise. There is a notable amount of mutual care and respect between us, but those two alone don't make an effective shield against deep disagreements.
Perhaps we need more time, to acquire more wisdom, and more information. In other words, more time to get ready.

>>16640231
you're probably right if the book effectively argues for that, it's hard to imagine that De Botton would be outwardly malicious. however (and i say this without having read the book) i'd still say that whoever does decide to take up the recommendation, should be critical while reading it. i do agree that emotional education, emotional intelligence, etc. are good things, but the methods with which someone might achieve these should be up for examination, always.

>>16638722
You don't need a book
You either do your shit or suicide.

>>16640243
>man to man expression and understanding is extremely absent in modernity
>is discussing the ramifications of expression and its issues in a global basket weaving forum, which does need a level of insight and vulnerability to accomplish

>>16640243

I agree that man rarely have other people to turn to who they can express emotions around them. One issues IMO is that - to be blunt - most men don't have a decent or high level of empathy. IME a lot of men feel not only uncomfortable expressing emotions, but also feel uncomfortable being in the presence of other men expressing emotions. (IME men tend to be comfortable with women expression emotions).

IMO it's going to take men to actively search for other men who want to develop emotional intelligence for the sake of their own and their children's well being.

In the absence of real life engagement, IMO men need to focus on expressing themselves to God and the page. (Which are good things to do, even if you do have male friends to talk to.)

>>16640265
> i do agree that emotional education, emotional intelligence, etc. are good things, but the methods with which someone might achieve these should be up for examination, always.

I agree 100%.

However, men that think like us seem to be the minority. A lot of men simply advocating problem solving mode through changing circumstance or keeping busy for psychological problems. The paradox being that part of the way to solve the problem of stress or emotional issues, is through developing emotional expression and emotional intelligence.

>>16638722
>16638722
I think basically every good writer does this, specially since most of them are men and can understand men better than anything else.

>>16640275

We aren't having a discussion about emotional experiences or feelings/experience of shame/humiliation. We are having an intellectual discussion. Men have no problem having intellectual discussions, or even using intellectual discussion to try to meet their psychological needs for emotional discussions.

(E.g. incels who post charts, and studys, as a substitute for saying that expressing that they feel despair, sadness and/or shame, because they seem themselves as adequate to find a girlfriend. They have no problem talking about their looks, or the social barriers to dating, but they rarely IME flat out talk about how much shame they feel, meaning the emotional experience of shame..)

You know, this is something I've never understood about funerals. The best thing we have come up with to do when one of our parents dies, for instance, is to gather the rest of the family around its corpse, stare at it, and talk extensively about how it is no longer alive. Then shake the hands and kiss the cheeks of relatives who keep going on about how sorry they are for us and how bad they feel themselves, and then ask us how we're holding up.

Wouldn't it be less stressful to just go about our day as usual or, at most, gather the people close to us to do anything but talk about the dead? I feel like there is much comfort to be found in just being around your loved ones and feeling involved with them, but very little point in actually sitting down to talk about any of it.

>>16640275

You're wrong, but pretending you're right, parasocial media being the only place men can express themselves is a truly sad state of affairs.

>>16640204
I myself find the whole "School of life" and similar products to be intelectually dishonest. I went to a highschool high on positive psychology (Thanks Mr Martin Seligman), which lists things to be happy and sheit. The whole thing was describing a Christian life, but without mentioning anything about God and also claiming it was something new. Just become Catholic FFS!
I find the same thing to happen with the School of Life, but less aggravating.
>>16640277
I'm of the opinion that the awkwardness one feels has to do with an ignorance of where the feelings come from and what to do with them and is something that must be solved rather than overcome. Meditating on them works for me and has removed the awkwardness of talking about my waifu (3D) with my friends.
>>16640252
Know each other better. That's what these relationships are for.
¡Que vivan los novios!

>>16640365

You may have anti-social personality disorder.

>>16640357
is this such a bad thing though? it seems to me that men would rather forego this humilliating part of truly laying down the guard, saying the things they're supposed to say about shame, how much shame, etc.

sometimes i do wonder if this distance from eachother truly is a bad thing. maybe there is no such prize at the end of the humilliating non-intellectual endevor (connection or self understanding).
i guess i'm saying this from the position of someone who has spoken about their feelings, and i haven't found something inside. what i find are meaningless words that almost sound like commercial jingles. i've had conversations where i was supposed to be relieved, but i wasn't.

>>16640446
lol, good job immediately pathologizing an experience when you come in contact with it.

>>16640365
t. mersault
no but really boring reference aside you might be right. i find that for an addict in recovery for instance, it isn't useful to constantly remind him of his illness and to put pressure in him to repent, etc. but moreso give him the guarantee of a "normal space". bad jokes included, treating eachother badly, this somehow feels more geniune and connective than a specific ritual where youre *supposed to* gain something.
gaining this *something* that the funeral points to seems to come as a result of something more mysterious and unexpected.
you'll find yourself crying your eyes out at the metro station two months later.

Contrary to popular belief, it's actually men who are the more sensitive and emotionally nuanced sex. Men have the capability of just letting a feeling be what it is, which is something women seem completely incapable of doing. When men share sad moments with friends, all we usually need is to share a moment of silence together, knowing that our friend understands and is there for us. Women don't seem capable of doing that; they need to talk about the tiniest minutiae for hours and hours, as if that has ever solved anything. Everything needs to be verbally expressed, laid out on the table like a dead frog to be dissected, or else it doesn't exist to them. If you don't explicitly tell them you feel a certain way, not only will they remain oblivious to your emotional state and call you emotionally underdeveloped, but they may go as far as to project whatever they imagine to be the reason you don't express emotions the way they expect you to, and then blame you for the reason that they just completely made up. Goddamn I wish I was gay.

>>16640519
>Contrary to popular belief, it's actually men who are the more sensitive and emotionally nuanced sex.
I'm honestly starting to believe this too. Women may have easier access to their emotions than men, but men often reach more profound depths.

>>16640532
I believe this has more to do with the fact that men are more prone to loneliness and the burden of responsibility.

men don't like to talk about their feelings because they know that it doesn't help.

I don't understand how to deal with what aim reading in this thread

>>16638722
emotions are natural reflexes, emotions are life. no emotions no life. you deserve it, faggots.

Complaining about loneliness is not a good way to stop being lonely, you have to party.

this "men should show their emotions" is crabs in a bucket shit. As a man doing that gets you absolutely no benefits in career and social life (except sometimes in very close relationships and showing some select emotions).
Women can't control their outbursts and a lot of times it makes their life harder, so they want everyone to fail where they fail. Simple as.

I don't really agree that "talking about your problems" is healthier than not. Talking about them is like taking medicine. Most people don't need medicine constantly throughout their lives, only when they are going through something. Certainly some men who bottle up do need to let it out, but that's only relevant when it reaches the point of necessity. Women do it way more than anyone ever needs to.

>>16638722
I just ignore my emotions until the issue is resolved or I just don't care anymore

>>16638722
Nichomachean Ethics
I think the most important part when talking about your emotions as a man is being articulate but brief and even laconic if possible. Writing paragraphs just makes you look like a weak bitch trying to summon pity. The only time expressing emotions at length can be productive and not backfire is with someone you’re very very close with and in person (how nature intends).
If you’re over text you might aswell randomize your delivery and if you’re over the phone video or not you’ll naturally engage less empathy and attention of who you’re talking to.

I recommend Nicomachean Ethics because it gives you a starting point for the general concepts of vice and virtue. You’re not going to be able to successfully interpret your own self interest (and thus the end desire of resolving troubled emotions) without those baselines. This is why people occupied entirely by carnal desires (vices) are always miserable on the inside, because they have no guidance or frame of reference for their own conduct in life. Nicomachean Ethics is not perfect, but is good initial guidance for someone asking these kinds of questions and for the path to self sufficiency/self realization.

Guys, please stop talking about what it's like to be a man when you are still effectively boys. It's embarrassing.

Women think they want men to talk about feelings more, but that's out of their own instinct to infantilize others and show vulnerability. The fact of it though is that men being weak and in their feelings are not attractive to women. This truth is not politically correct to say

>>16642493
Shouldn’t you be reading the Onlyfans terms of servicing and planning a protest for some felons right to resist arrest?

>>16640519
good post

>>16638722

1. Most of the talking about men speaking about their problems comes only from women who want to vulnerabilize men so they would be easier to manipulate and control (breeding of simps and orbiters for attention and sadistic pleasure).
2. Most of the women who say it and actually meet a man who opens up will contradict themselves and will not know what to do, because the whole situation is alien to them. They will expect a hear about "well this is what is bugging me lately" kind of problems whereas men bottle up only serious, unpleasant to hear problems. Men take up more responsibilities, which means greater problems that women cant understand. You start talking about crippling loneliness or suicidal thoughts and the eyes of the listening woman will start glazing. Meanwhile women problematize every small detail like >>16640519 showed.
3. Women are psychologically weaker and they see as problems things that are of no concern to men e.g., as said in the last sentence. Because of this, women will expect the man to be the neutral, stoic instance in their lives that will help them to get trough chaos of their every day life. You being weak and talking about your problems will show that you're not capable of such role.
4. The only situation where a man can talk about his problems is with his mother, close friend or with the long term intimate partner after they had sex. Because talking about your problems absolutely destroys your sex appeal in the eyes of the other sex.

>>16640519

IMO your post is the reverse of the Feminists who try to present the notion that the feminine emotional life is superior.

The masculine or feminine emotional is not superior or 'deeper' than the other, they are just different.

There not need to try to present the way of one demographic as superior to the other, simply because you belong to the member of that demographic, and are inclined towards that way.

>>16640469
>lol, good job immediately pathologizing an experience when you come in contact with it.

Again, if you don't understand why I responded with that, you may have anti-social personality disorder.

Grieving and grieving in groups is normal for non sociopaths.. "Going about your lives as normal" is what sociopaths do, because they don't experience emotional attachments like everyone else.

>>16640448
>it seems to me that men would rather forego this humilliating part

Yes, I agree. The problem is that it's bad for the physical health, psychological health, and close relationships.

>maybe there is no such prize at the end of the humilliating non-intellectual endevor

Numerous studies conclude the benefits to physical and psychological well being.

> i've had conversations where i was supposed to be relieved, but i wasn't.

No offence, but you may be psychologically/neurologically abnormal. Some people have a relatively blunt emotional make up, and so don't feel things like emotional attachment, grief, sadness, or shame like other people.

>>16638722
no one does it better, really

>>16638722
Honestly bro, David foster Wallace.

>>16638722
>blood meridian

>>16638722
>Blood Meridian

>>16639059
Maybe you should try to express it to only yourself that’s what’s work for me, I write on my computer when I don’t feel good or when I feel stressed, and I give all the details posible in order to remove all the thoughts from my head and afterwards I end up felling good.

>>16640519
You are wrong

>>16640670
It does help a lot but first you have to learn to vulnerable and that’s something not many man are willing to do

>>16638903
funny how i don't remember that at all and only how much of an evil cunt she was. i guess she deserved it.

Men deal with their emotions through action because empty expression is worthless. Men express their emotions by backing them with action.

Women deal with their emotions through talk or inner reflection that is typically vapid.
This is all at the root of the biological difference.

>>16645478
Also, women are inferior to men, biologically. They do not have the mental capacity to channel emotions into action so they tend to vomit them all over.

it's over. society was officially a failed experiment. please nuke the world dr.pazuzu. POUND THE DAMN GAVEL ALREADY!

>>16645558
AAAAAAAAAAAH