/lit/ - Literature

>>16485749
It’s a racket for the jews

>>16485749
>What is /lit/'s opinion on psychiatry?
Alchemy yet to become chemistry
>Is it scientific?
Not yet
>Or are you more on board with the antipsychiatry movements ala Foucault and Szasz?
No
>I'm finishing med school next year and I'm seriously considering going into psych. It would allow me to delve deeper into literature, philosophy and anthropology as part of my career, but at the same time I have read some things by Foucault and Whitaker that made me have some doubts.
Use the things you read to change and enhance psych from within it

An easy cashgrab

Psychoanalysis was deeply flawed, but today's psychiatric pill-slinging is out-and-out evil. Our grandchildren are going to look at antidepressants with the same kind of abject horror we feel when we look at lobotomies.

>>16485749
You can only make it big in psych if you are a jew.

>I'm finishing med school next year and I'm seriously considering going into psych. It would allow me to delve deeper into literature, philosophy and anthropology
It won't. You'll be looking at psychological studies and learning about neurochemicals. Psychoanalysis and psychology are different things.

>>16486711
>today's psychiatric pill-slinging
Pill perscriptions are way less now than they were in the 80s and earlier decades. You can also just say no if they are offered. For things like schizophrenia it's basically obligatory if you want to be at least moderately sane.

Hey OP, I suggest Otto Rank, Becker and Winnicott.
I believe you’d find Winnicott especially insightful, being in med school. Home is where we start from is a decent collection of his essays, but you’d probably like Human Nature, it was a bit dry for me. He goes into medical jargon which went over my head, but you’d probably get something out of it.
Being interested in anthro, Becker is top tier. Read Birth and Death of Meaning, denial of death, and then escape from evil in that order.
>Is it scientific
Every case is different, but the systems are always the same.

I thought Freud was bullshit until I actually starting reading him and the people after him. Before reading any psychoanalytical work I suggest Bettlehiem’s “Freud and Man’s soul.”
Freud has been mistranslated in English, and much of what he implied was lost in translation. Bettelheim covers this tragedy in depth, and talks about the fall out of it.

Additionally, while many of Freud’s ideas are outdated, it’s because of the science at the time. For instance, the idea of infant sexuality was taken from primatology, as Freud was interested in anthropology and evolution. In pop culture he’s now labeled a pervert because of it, but at the time it was reasonable.
Same with the Oedipus complex. Most people assume it means you want to fuck your mom, you’re on /lit/ so I assume you’re somewhat familiar with the plays of Sophocles.
Oedipus Rex is about doing everything you can to avoid familial tragedy and still falling victim to it because you never confronted it.

Freud was a Greek classicist. That’s why he chose Eros and Psyche as his favorite gods, and why the field of psychology is named after the Greek goddess of the soul.

>>16486822
I say Freud is outdated. Some of his ideas are. They’ve been refined

i said something cringe about freud some years back so i now instinctively stretch all muscles in my face, punch my wall and scream everytime i see him.
might read one of his work when the curse is over.

>>16486727
>Oh come on it's not THAT bad, you don't want a bunch of unmedicated schizos running around do you?
Fuck you nigger. When antidepressants are being prescribed to something like 15% of all adults in the country and studies have been quietly reminding doctors that they regularly get outperformed by sugar pills for decades, the people running that industry should be publicly executed.

>>16486847
Studies came out a year or two ago that most of the commonly prescribed antidepressants are effective

>>16486873
It's funny how their efficacy varies sinusoidally, isn't it? Maybe they depend on seven year solar cycles, has anybody studied that interaction yet?

>>16486822
Wow thank you, those look like very interesting reads. I will make sure to check them out before I have to make a final decission.

>>16486822
Freud had good ideas but his fixation on sexuality as the root of everything was flawed and degenerate.

blogpost time..

I really really wanted to be a psychiatrist. considered going back to take med school prerecss, take on debt, spend 8+ years in med school, etc etc. My undergrad is in engineering AND in phil and like you I was into the literature + phil + anthro underpinings of the psychiatry field - to me they appeared as "black sheep" of the medical community that have a philosophical bent. You're dealing with the mind, after all

after I a) volunteered at a psych ward and moreso b) read up on philosophy and the philosophy of psychiatry, I came to the conclusion that the field as we know it today is borderline bunk. it's a combination of a) big bad Big Pharma and b) we simply not knowing, at a causal level, how all these psych drugs that we're prescribing REALLY work - and just peddling them anyway because clinical trials seem to statistically suggest that the drugs are effective. the field is scientifically bankrupt. Look into RD Laing and S. Nassir Ghaemi (moreso the latter, who after bringing a bunch of info and questions up to him via e-mail, told me personally that the philosophically-inclined should NOT become psychiatrists). so my true point is you are being naive to the whole enterprise of psychiatry. dig a little more, and in your case, actually speak to some psychiatrists before moving further.

>>16486986
Drugs for physical ailments are largely not that much better in this regard

>>16486994
What a great vote of confidence, now I'll let them hook my kids on amphetamines

>>16485749
>Is it scientific
The mechanism for the vast majority of psychiatric drugs and care hasn't been discovered. At some point psychiatry is just going to give depressives heroic doses of mushrooms rather than go through the lengthy process of chemical castration.
>It would allow me to delve deeper into literature, philosophy and anthropology as part of my career
It won't. Your job is giving patients drugs and setting them up with in-house psychologists (the people who do the actual work desu, if they refuse an in-house psychologist you send them to another healthcare provider because the client isn't being juiced of the maximum money), that's it. Sure, you could work in a mental hospital, have interesting conversations with the residents every morning (if they don't stonewall you - you just provide drugs, not intellectual discussion), but that's as philosophical as it gets: explaining to jaded adolescents why they should continue taking mood stabilisers with no tangible benefits and very tangible side-effects. Perhaps you'll get to chat to the occasional wit that just got sent their by parents and is admant after reading the Rosenhan study/doing highschool psychology that you're a fraud. Don't bother anon, help people in a tangible way, psychiatry will never fix the root causes of mental illness, it just makes money from patients and produce an underclass of untreatable youths with 5+ undesirable labels.
>>16486986
This, volunteer at a psychward, shit's sad

>>16486711
I use to have this world view, I think it's one for people with the luxury of not knowing what their talking about.

>>16486949
It was built upon several things, including an early understanding of primate sexuality during infancy and childhood. It can be observed in monkeys, and since we obviously don't show the same proclivities to it, he believed that over the evolutionary process it had been repressed. Of course we know now that the idea is outdated, but Freud was a rigorous thinker and at the time it was reasonable.

In addition his psycho-sexual stages are taken for granted today. Have you ever used the word "anal" to describe someone that is excessively clean? Congrats, you're referencing a psycho-sexual stage. Erogenous zones are correlated with different levels of childhood development. Frankly, entire cultures have been built upon these stages as a ritual can teach and reinforce behavior that allows the participants to conquer different parts of their primitive psyches. We live in a world built by a cumulation of 100,000 years of culture. It only really started ramping up when we began to extrapolate out the human from nature and then the individual from the human, but that takes time. And you don't do it automatically. The psycho-sexual stages are part of controlling your animal self.

>>16486711
Why? Without them my life consists of debilitating suicidal thoughts and thinking how worthless i am, when i take half a pill of paroxetine i don't have them and at least can try to actually do something.

Don't know about psychiatry, here's my psychotherapy ranking:
If you want turbo critical schizo anarcho psychiatry read deleuze and guattari
If you want more grounded but still critical read freud and lacan (may call this left-freudianism)
If you want more normie-friendly stuff read psychodynamic psychotherapy (ego-psychology, object relations and so on) (may call this right-freudianism)
If you want turbo normie stuff read CBT (not cock ball torture, the other one)

>>16486822
>Most people assume it means you want to fuck your mom
Alright...
>Oedipus Rex is about doing everything you can to avoid familial tragedy and still falling victim to it because you never confronted it
... how does this contradict your previous statement? You just worded it differently, but it still implies you wanting to fuck your mom. Of course, the motives aren't the same as the myth from which the complex derives its name, but it doesn't have to be, it's enough that there's a parallel of a lust for your own mother.
>That’s why he chose Eros and Psyche as his favorite gods, and why the field of psychology is named after the Greek goddess of the soul
Do you have any proof of this? It seems to me it's way more logical that the field is named what it is because it deals with the human soul, not because Freud loved greek stuff so much that he wanted to name things in psychology after it.

>>16485756
this. Jung was the only based depth psychologist because he was a white European.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EULynGtVskU

>>16487046
I can see where you're coming from and agree with most of what you've said, but pray tell, how do you think you'd treat people like who have conditions like schizophrenia without medications?

>>16485749
I immensely enjoy it when its worked into fiction; some examples are what I've liked is DFW's shitting on the psychoanalyst in Good Ole Neon and paranoia induced by Nabokov (yes, THAT Nabokov, you fucking lolicon) in "Signs and Symbols"
There's plenty of terrible examples of psychiatry being woven into narratives, though; especially in criminal fiction. I liked "Beast in View" but its an example of "oh shit I didn't see the twist coming because so-and-so turned out to cuhrahhhhhhhhzy oh my goodness"
I'm mostly interested in the Jungian stuff, shadow and unconscious and all that; I'm hardcore considering picking up one of those Jungian fairytale books since I'm very much into folklore lit.

>>16487195
You are nothing without your pills. You are worthless and weak, a slave to the chemicals in your brain. You are not unique nor interesting, and you hate this.

>>16487325
We should fly them all to Delphi and have them induce epilectic fits to tell us about future stock market volatility, like our forefathers have done since time immemorial

>>16487195
>Without them my life consists of debilitating suicidal thoughts and thinking how worthless i am
This is a sign that something is fundamentally wrong in your life, deep-seated problems that you really need to address.
>when i take half a pill of paroxetine i don't have them and at least can try to actually do something.
This does not fix whatever issues are causing your life to be so miserable, it just numbs you to all of it. You are absolutely worse off because of those pills, whether you understand why or not.

>>16487559
based schizo

>>16487304
There is not lust for the mother in the story. Don’t speak about things you obviously don’t understand.
>any proof of this
Literally read any work about Freud and his philosophy. I threw out 5 authors.

>>16487325
Let them dance around in funny costumes and make prophecies. They will be happy when we don't follow them and bad things happen to us.

>>16485913
>Alchemy yet to become chemistry
you're fucking retarded.

>>16486822
>Same with the Oedipus complex. Most people assume it means you want to fuck your mom
it does. you then repress these feeling because of father and this creates the super-ego.

>>16485749
>What is /lit/'s opinion on psychiatry?
Choose it as my career, so I'm a bit biased. Its' really interesting but ethics/laws/boomers/capatalism hold the field back a lot.
>Is it scientific?
yes lol, most people in the field nowdays are so frail about "not being a real science" they make sure everything is very rigorous technology advacements over the years have also helped quit a bit
>It would allow me to delve deeper into literature, philosophy and anthropology as part of my career
if your interested in the anthropology side of things, i'd highly recommending reading books in the feild of evolutionary psych

>>16485749
Psychiatry is sort of scientific. Some good actors in the field make an effort to do well-thought-out experiments and draw only the conclusions that the evidence supports. It's hopeless work, but some do it well.
Psychoanalysis is unequivocal fraud and always has been. It is painfully obvious when you read any of the main guys' works. That the field has been treated as scientific for so long, and in the 20th century, no less, is truly horrifying.
Neuroscience, however, is a science.

>>16485749
>It would allow me to delve deeper into literature, philosophy and anthropology

What made you think that? Did you even have an intership in psychiatry during your studies? If not, don't jump in blind. I've worked in psychiatry as a nurse and loved it, but the last thing it needs is one more clueless doctor.
No other discipline made me realize the difference between a good and a bad doctor as much as psychiatry did. The right set of skills required is just rare, I guess.

It's an uneasy blend of social science and medical science, I don't doubt that the majority of mental illnesses aren't 'real'. Personality disorders in particular have always seemed a strange idea to me.

>>16489618
>Choose it as my career
You deserve a painful death. You deserve to have your balls twisted off from your body.

I agree with >>16486711. The idea that the brain has to be treated to treat the mind is not scientific at all and unjustifiable. Additionally, there is some implicit separation of mind and body that makes little sense. Any “mental health issue” is a symptom of a bodily issue that is manifesting itself in another part of the body (the mind). Psychiatry treats a symptom of a larger issue. Vitamin D deficiency and poor gut health are both linked to depression and other issues, but retards in America would rather pop their pill and continue their sedentary lifestyle and shit diet than changing their life. Living and thinking like pigs is easy, being better is hard

>>16485749
im possibly interested into going into psychiatry at some point - what literature do you get to read?

>>16486986
What do you do now, anon? I’m in a similar situation as far as my majors and interests go, but now i’m trying to decide what’s next ( i just graduated)

>>16485749
I definitely don't trust it. Psychology is a bit meh but interesting and can help you. Psychiatry is just fucking retarded, a pretty "hey it worked with some faggot so it should work with you" procedure that messes with the brain just shouldn't exist.

As pseudoscience as Microkinesitherapy feels like, I give it way more merit to it than psychiatry, more so because it worked, placebo or not.

>>16486711
This. Psych needs a virtue ethics paradigm shift

>>16489805
There are some personality and mood disorders that are clearly real, and some that seem like memes, the ones that are actually describing a clearly aberrant psychology are imo:
>Narcissism
The actual seriously NPD people have completely distorted views of reality to accommodate their delusional inflated self-images. These people are impossible to reason with.
>ASPD
The real 'psychopaths' and 'sociopaths'. They either have no empathy at all, or just a very limited sense for maybe their immediate family or one or two people. Usually have very little fear as well and are prone to rage.
>OCD
The people who spend hours tapping walls or turning lights on and off because they are terrified of some kind of impending doom if they don't.
>schizoprenia
Outright delusion, but unlike narcissists it isn't in service only of self-image, it's just a clusterfuck. They hallucinate as well, mostly voices. Their emotional state spans a variety of conditions from flattened affect to extreme anxiety. It's probably several different disorders.
>Bipolar 1
Actual manic episodes. these are month+ long periods where the person basically operates and feels like they're railing 3 different drugs constantly. Sleep very little, huge amounts of energy, delusions about their importance or abilities. It's not just that they're 'up', they think God is sending them messages and they're a prophet or something.
>anorexia
Inability to accurately view their bodies combined with a delusional belief that lowering their weight will fix everything. This is the most deadly mental disorder per capita.
>borderline personality disorder
This one is comically over-diagnosed. The people who actually have it are a bit like bipolar people who cycle hourly rather in month long periods. They have no stable concept of self, they constantly think they are hallucinating things because they don't trust their own minds, their concepts of other people oscillate wildly between adoration and hatred. Giant mood swings all the time.
>low functioning autism
I don't think this one even needs explanation. Its not clear what they think because they don't even communicate.

I have met people who exhibit all these disorders and it is impossible to not notice they are basically 'crazy'. they don't function normally. NPD and ASPD people can sometimes technically function and keep under the radar but their personal lives are almost always a mess. Schizos and anorexics have it the worst of all them I would say. Drugs and therapy usually cannot fix any of these people, but sometimes they seem to help(hard to know what is actually causation there).

>>16488241
how?

>>16489939
What portion of the population have these real pathological disorders? And do you think they are hard wired/ biological or the result of trauma? What should we do about psych disorders being a fad?

>>16490007
those disorders all hover around 1% of the population according to stats. I think the real cases are probably quite a bit lower because of over-diagnosis. There are people who are just a bit off, and then there are really crazy people. The diagnostic criteria are not that useful for determining which is which. You will usually realize when you get to know a person with a disorder like that, it's really not subtle.

As for genes idk. I assume it's a combination of genes and environment, there is really barely any good research about this because it's just intrinsically extremely difficult to study at present.

And about psych disorders being a fad, that's a way different question. Many people are wrongly diagnosed, there is the pharmaceutical industry, there is a whole apparatus of ideologically informed structure surrounding it all. It's a shitshow. Some people really need help, others really can't be helped, and many others are just being preyed on by a system that sees them as marks, even if the individual agents responsible for its execution might think they're doing good or whatever.

There are so many unknowable variables that it's practically absurd to state much with certainty about it. What I do know is that there are severely mentally ill people, and it's not a joke, it's tragic.

>>16489618
OY VEY

>In his youth, Laius was taken in as a guest by Pelops, king of Elis, where he would become tutor to the king's youngest son, Chrysippus, in chariot racing. Laius seduces or abducts Chrysippus, and rapes him.
Did Freud ever comment on this?

>>16485749
Psychiatry is a shit career. It's filled with people who are fucked up and want to "understand themselves." Those are your peers. Your patients are literal psychopaths that you will drug until they kill themselves.
This is piled on top of the fact that the field is run by women. Most patients by far are women too, and good luck independently finding patients. They feel more comfortable with another woman slowly poisoning them. As a man your only option is to become a minister to pick up church moms' crazy kids. This is a declining field since no one goes to church anymore.
At least once during your career you will discover that one of the drugs you have pushed for decades did nothing but irrecoverably harm your patients. You will have to deal with knowing that.
You will be laughed at by real doctors. You will be laughed at by your family. I will find you and laugh at you to your face. So no. I do not recommend psychiatry.

>>16490205
>At least once during your career you will discover that one of the drugs you have pushed for decades did nothing but irrecoverably harm your patients
Why is psychiatry still a thing? Wtf?

>>16490215
It is a rain maker for drug companies. Money talks.

I genuinely believe that good dental health is more beneficial to mental well being than the pills psychiatrists give you. That's right -- I'm a psychodontist!

>>16490224
Do you think it will ever stop being practiced? Like, will people wake up to how fucked up this is and stop doing it like lobotomy? Or will it ever evolve pass this shit?

>>16490235
Honestly, I wouldn't put it pass how little we understand of what "affects our brain".

But does that mean cavemen were all depressed?

>>16489939
Bipolar 2 is also very real. Hypomania is a bitch, though you don't necessarily needs drugs for it.
Source: me.

>>16490236
Psychiatry is needed. Ignoring that medicine for the mind can be helpful is ignoring the truth, you should visit a psychic ward. I honestly hate psychologists, they tend to have a narrow world view compared to psychiatrists.

>>16490241
Yes
But I really do always feel better when my mouth is clean, and I thought it'd be funnier to reference Pynchon.

>>16490251
what is Bipolar 2 like? I am very curious

>>16489723
I was supposed to do the rotations later this year, but due to coronavirus I may not have the chance.
Could you elaborate on tje good vs bad doctor and the right set of skills, please?

>>16485749
It's flawed (see Rosenham experiment) and prone to giving in to ideological pressure, as we the clumsy attempts to normalize transsexuals and gender dysphoria show. It's also been misused in legal process several times as it attempts to deprive people from agency.
All in all , it's an area with many insights but needs to be read with a grain of salt and not given much authority when it comes to social issues.

>>16490236
It will never stop making shitloads of money. As more and more people grow dissatisfied with 21st century life, more and more people will have a demand for simple fixes to make that psychic pain and dread go away, and there's no quicker fix than expensive pills you have to stay on for the rest of your life (because remember, a side effect of stopping, or sometimes even just changing prescriptions, is suicide). It's an absolute gold mine.
>>16490241
Cavemen ate very little sugar compared to people today. The worst teeth would belong to sedentary farmers that ate mostly carbs.

>>16490259
Nobody has a narrower worldview than the scum prescribing permanently mind-altering chemicals to suffering people based on checklists and flowcharts

>>16490402
>a side effect of stopping, or sometimes even just changing prescriptions, is suicide
Many personal questions were just answered desu.

>>16490410
You'll never guess what happened to DFW right before he hanged himself.

>>16487384
So are your parents without their blood pressure medication

>>16490425
Who?

I am sure all the motherfuckers saying that psychiatry is a fraud take their depressive daughter to urban shamans instead of giving her SRIS, right?
We will talk again once she hangs herself in the basement.

>>16490556
>We will talk again once she hangs herself in the basement.
Once the meds take effect?

>>16490573
I'm sure all the psychiatrists, several health organizations around the world and big pharma are all on a big conspiracy to give meds to healthy children in order to make them zombies.
Or maybe you are a retard outside of the medical field that knows jackshit about all of this?

Mmmm, I wonder which one is more likely?

>>16490603
All I know is what I and many others have experienced. Real people should count way more than "organizations", but I can see you've made up your mind already, so whatever, I'm not wasting the little time I have trying to convince you otherwise; I just ask you to not judge people who refuse to get on the scheme.

>>16490628
I'm not that guy, but I'm on SSRIs and I'm better now, so I guess that breaks your argument?

>>16490628
I don't judge people who believe they are better off without their meds, or that have a negative experience with psychiatry. Many light mental disorders get better spontaneusly, and the meds can have unpleasant side effects that push people to stop taking them and then have the feeling they get better.
But believe me that whatever you experienced have nothing to do with actual serious mental disorders.

I do judge however people who talk about a 'scheme' with the same talking points as antivaxxers.

>>16490644
That's good man, but not really my point. Like, if hitting people in the back with a plank was a procedure for back pain, despite it only working half the time, wouldn't you be pissed if you were one of the people who got your spine permanently broken by it? Or rather, that no one fucking understands you when you say "hey, that fucking plank broke my spine"
>>16490658
I just rather believe in everyone saying it's a scheme rather than believing we're actually this unprepared and careless with things we are casually messing with such as brain chemicals. Like, yeah, lobotomy was a thing, but I thought that was a really uncommon thing, am I wrong?

>>16490680
Like I said, you are free to go off your meds whenever you like as long as you don't pose a threat to others, so if they don't work for you just let go, you won't suffer lifelong trauma for spending a few months in antidepressants that make you feel like shit and prevent you from cumming or whatever.

However, saying that it is a scheme when countnless of lives have been saved by them and countless of people have been allowed to live a normal life despite having diseases that have a century ago would have had them confined in a mental ward their whole life is just plain irresponsible.
How many people in the 50s and 60s spent their whole life locked up because of things like bipolar or hysteria? How many homeless people ended up like that because of mental health issues? How many people lost their lives to addiction? What about people with disorders in jail?

All of this is getting better because of the efforts of researchers, psychiatrists and psychologists who have to put up with people wishing all of them being locked up or murdered like some retards up in this thread.

>>16490754
>you won't suffer lifelong trauma for spending a few months in antidepressants
I spent 7 years being forced different medications I don't even know the name of, Iunno if that's enough time to be fucked by them, but it surely feels like it, I hope you're right and these feelings will end at some point before myself.

>saying that it is a scheme when countless of lives have been saved by them and countless of people have been allowed to live a normal life despite having diseases that have a century ago would have had them confined in a mental ward their whole life is just plain irresponsible
That's a fair point, but you wouldn't be surprised at this point if you heard me saying that it wasn't worth it in my opinion, right?
It was my life anon. I can't be more biased than that. I can't do anything but agree with whatever negative thing there is to say about this shit, because I hope someone, anyone, listens to it and opposes it as well.

>>16489871
I am an industrial electrical engineer - I ended up falling back into engineering

>>16490818
sorry not OP either

>>16490793
I am sorry you had to go through all of that. This sounds like malpractice to me.
But I can't help but get in the defensive when someone labels my practice as evil or thinks that I just want to extract money from naive people by drugging thier kids, All I want is to help the people live better lives.

>>16485756
t. Sopranos Fanboy

>>16485749
Freud over-sexualizes everything and interprets sexuality literally, rather than symbolically. Lacan tends to get lost in obscurity and irrelevant connection between other fields. Ego-psychology tends to focus on "correcting behavior". Medical psychiatry brushes aside the patients circumstances, history, etc. and goes straight to modifying the chemistry of the brain. Jung gets stuck on archetypes and sees nothing outside it.

But as a whole it is an "art", not a science (except in specific circumstances like medical psychiatry). It is nevertheless useful and "true" if practiced correctly.

>>16485749
>psychiatry?

Is a fraud. Think about it. They go around pretending to be real scientists but do they actually ever implement the scientific method? Where are their instruments? They are nothing more than the distribution branch of big pharma. Like the dboys on the street but they wear nicer clothes.

>>16490914
no shit retard. realy looking deep into the purpose of psychiatry by saying "it makes hella money yo,"
you don't think there are more profitable enterprises or methods for dealing with mentally ill people if it was all about dat cash homie?

>>16490914
they improve people's lives empirically. Psychology is not the realm of empiricism. It's no neurology and the variable would be immensely huge if one were to use human beings.

>>16490923
>you don't think there are more profitable enterprises or methods for dealing with mentally ill people

First of all, I would like to see an empirical test that can prove the existence of a mental illness using instruments that can measure aspects of the brain, after it has been proven that certain formations or levels of biological messengers in the brain are, without a doubt, associated with any of the major mental illnesses.

Second, I would like to know exactly how someone could exploit the 'mentally ill' for even more cash. I had an injection last month that cost the taxpayers like $4000. That is insane. Now I'm on the run, because I hate the injection as it takes away my edginess. But sooner or later they will catch up with me and back to the hospital I will go. And it's all because they took away my ADHD medications so now I self medicate and this causes many problems for me. Including delusion. The hospitals are like $4000 a day as well. The whole thing is a racket and I want to know how they could make more money off of an oppressed group of people. Fucking slavery? That's the only thing I can think of.

>>16490929
>they improve people's lives empirically.

Sure, maybe severe schizophrenics. I agree that the meds might make life more manageable for that group, who suffer from severe delusions, constantly. But have you ever been to a psych hospital? There are very few cases that bad there. Most people are there for bipolar and/or depression. They love to force meds that are antagonistic to dopamine, which all anti-psychotics are. That makes life seriously suck. Then they try to force that shit on some people, who did nothing more than get wiped on some drugs and get paranoid. Why don't they send me to treatment? Why do they have to force the drugs on me? I don't want them. They make me feel like shit. I experienced the shitty feeling, so there's your empirical evidence. And we're not talking about psychology we are talking about psychiatry. More neurology would be nice to see, but these psychiatrists are no better than a dope dealing witch doctor. And the worst part is that they refuse to assign you a psychologist who might be able to help you deal with problems in a cognitive manner.

>>16490064
Jesus Christ, what a reasonable asessment.

>>16490205
>>16490064
>>16489939
I take 100mg of zoloft. I could not tolerate going outside for very long before killing myself within a month due to delusional thinking, erupting from childhood trauma. Based on my own individual ailment, and expanding the self to incorporate others of my species, I charge that tens of millions of people would immediately commit suicide if they were not prescribed their medication. I can't even attain an education because I feel dangerously insecure in an interpersonal environment.

One of you, help me. I'm terrified of being called retarded. The possibility of having a flawed, dull mind scares me to no end. I think it's probably my lot, though. How can I overcome my fear of having substandard intelligence? I feel endlessly trapped in these crude little routines that are the very antithesis to beauty and anything sublime. Oftentimes I’ll wrongly interpret literature and art, settling on an interpretation which is only half right or very general, full of air, and bland. I can't stand it. As my intellectual betters, please be kind and offer me something. I'm in so much pain.

>>16491072
Meditation. It's the ultimate cope.

>>16491072
>How can I overcome my fear of having substandard intelligence?

Change your perspective on the value of intelligence. Are you one or have you met very many highly intelligent people? Do they ever seem happy to you? Let's take a look at what the do for the good of humanity or the planet, our home. Have they fixed many serious problems, like I don't know, taught people that endless conflict and taking away from other people isn't very nice? Have you ever met a nice really smart person? I've tested at 150iq consistently but my creative intelligence is much higher and I'm the meanest person you will ever meet. I fucking hate just about everyone. Even myself. The Eskimo alone I feel no hate for, for some reason. Maybe it's because they are the only group of people on earth that are forced to get along, and so have never oppressed or murdered another group for any reason. So my point is that if smart people were so great, where are the societies of abundance and utopias at? Where everyone just gets along and lives in peace? As a very smart person, I find the very idea of a utopia to be disgusting and vile, like a hospital or other institution or prison where man would be in a greatly unfree state as a price for the 'utopia' and peace and do you know why? It's because humans are fucking savages, worse than any animal and this is the actual reason we have survived this long. Because war became our truest name. Without war we would become even weaker, more feeble, more sedentary because without challenge there is no victory. So there you have it. A self-titled smart guys says war and suffering is better for the health of our species in the long run. Maybe I'm not as smart as I think I am, but I know one thing. Life itself is still here, and life on earth is brutal as fuck. I say we not forget the lessons of the natural world.

>>16491072
How do you know you're a midwit, anon?

>>16491072
above average intellect lets you see your intellectual flaws
>>16491114
found the actual midwit, like holy smokes, where to begin really

>>16491203
we are all midwits to be honest. we all need to work to improve our intelligence i think.

>>16490440
The famous author David Foster Wallace committed suicide shortly after he stopped taking his SSRIs. It turned out that his medication had done nothing to fix the fact that he wanted to kill himself.

>>16491031
>I charge that tens of millions of people would immediately commit suicide if they were not prescribed their medication
If this were true we'd have seen suicide rates go down since the invention of psychiatric drugs.

>>16491223
>where to begin really

I'm not sure but I would like you actually demonstrate what indicates that I'm a midwit. Use examples, logic, references please. I don't actually think that I'm all that smart but I place little value on ultra-high intelligence, considering what it is usually used for. And that is exploitation, destruction, oppression. To be honest I blame capitalism for much of the misuse of our most gifted minds. I'm mostly interested in art, which is not heavily intellectual like math or physics and uses different parts of the brain. I have little use for intellectuals. They mostly annoy me because they are usually convinced of their own superior learning and intellect without demonstration.

>>16491301
Is this in proportion to their respective populations? Also, once cannot discount the relatively rapid progression of technology impacting culture and increasing systematic pressure upon the individual, in proportion to the advancement of psychiatric medicine. So in effect, Psychiatry might be the discipline that is keeping the suicide rates from sky rocketing, for lack of a better term. Drugs aren't magic, one also has to factor in the increasing systematic pressure of a technologically advanced society. Psychiatry is simple a necessary response to industrialisation.

>>16485749
>yea bro I totally understand what's going on in your mind bro don't ask how I know bro I just know man I just know everything man
Fuck off with that crap. It's all a meme.

>>16491072
being called retarded, being insecure and being in pain is just a part of existing. You either grow to accept these facts, learn to cope and to some extent compensate or you kill yourself. It’s that simple. It is possible to be stronger. Hope, as gay as this sounds, really is one the best things you can cultivate within yourself.

>>16491379
>Is this in proportion to their respective populations?
Yes, see https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db362.htm
>Also, once cannot discount the relatively rapid progression of technology impacting culture and increasing systematic pressure upon the individual, in proportion to the advancement of psychiatric medicine. So in effect, Psychiatry might be the discipline that is keeping the suicide rates from sky rocketing, for lack of a better term.
I'd have to agree with you here. My field is not psychology, I'm just a wildlife biologist, but it seems to me that it's environmental factors that are causing the rise in suicides. If you've ever lived in rural areas in the past decade it's obvious that the soul crushing grind of unemployment, debt, drug abuse, and the breakdown of traditional life is taking it's toll on those people.
>Drugs aren't magic, one also has to factor in the increasing systematic pressure of a technologically advanced society. Psychiatry is simple a necessary response to industrialisation.
Once again I'd have to agree. I tend to think that a command and control response to any problem, be it prescribing drugs, suppressing wildfire, predator removal, etc. can often seem great in the short-term but be a disaster long-term. My fear with prescriptions is not that the Jews are making tons of money, plenty of groups profit from short-term plans, it's that an over reliance on drugs ignores the real cause of our problems. I am afraid that eventually we will lose every opportunity we have to really treat our minds and be reliant on drugs.

>>16491550
I'm not the one you were responding to but while all of that is probably true, it has nothing to do with psychiatry as a whole.
It is still better to give people drugs to prevent them from offing themselves, cause nothing is gonna change.
We are not going to change anything in society as long as this system holds, and it seems to be doing so just fine. And unless you want to go down the path of Ol' Uncle Ted there really is nothing one can do.
And apart from that there is the whole bunch of real mental illnesses that have been with us since the very beggining, like schizophrenia and psychosis and it is good that these people get the help they need, be it via meds or whatever better treatment we can get.

>>16490273
Hope you get the chance, then.

It would be a long answer, but here are some important points:

- Psychiatry patients will try to fuck with you, to trick you, to provoke you, to make fun of you, etc... : you need to be able, without ever losing your shit, to calmly adress all this while having a strong enough show that you'll inspire respect. The patients with sociopathic or psychopathic tendencies will eat you alive if you don't inspire respect. Your unit will fastly become a hot mess if you fail to do that.

- You need to know your shit down to the tiniest detail, because both the patients and families will: doubt you, interrogate you, and fail to follow your directives if you didn't garner their trust. The treatments in psychiatry are not pleasant, not easy to be accepted, and its the country of perpetual re-hospitalization, so you have to inspire confidence if you want to be taken seriously.

- You need to be ready to make hard decisions: when to put someone in isolation, when to restrain someone, and the harder part: when to take someone out of isolation or out of his restraints. That last part will often have to be against the advice of some of the medical team, who will understandably fear following violent outbursts, but if you fail to properly dose this, if you restrain your patient too long, you will not only be a shit person, you will also lose in the process the trust of your patient, and you can't work without it in psychiatry.

- You have to work without judging your patients, and treat them all with the same empathy. That comes easy when the patient is some endearing young steve struggling with visions. It is not so easy when the patient is a rapist or a murderer, when he has hit a nurse or tried to assault one at night, but your job is still, on some level, to ease his psych pain.

- You have to love discipline and be able to instill it in your unit and your patient's behaviour. Discipline isn't the strong suit of a psy patient, but they need it. For reference, the best psychiatrist I've worked with was a 35 y/o tiny woman that no patient dared to scream to, disrespect, or cut in a conversation. She would dominate the room every time, she would dominate the conversation every time; patients would apologize to her if they ever crossed a line. That's how you need to be, or you'll lose control of the unit and lose the ability to help your patients.

>>16491735
Wow, thank you for the though out response, I really appreciate it.
It seems like a very tough field, I don't think I can properly make a decision without spending some time in there first.

>>16491114
>Change your perspective on the value of intelligence. Are you one or have you met very many highly intelligent people? Do they ever seem happy to you? Let's take a look at what the do for the good of humanity or the planet, our home. Have they fixed many serious problems, like I don't know, taught people that endless conflict and taking away from other people isn't very nice? Have you ever met a nice really smart person? I've tested at 150iq consistently but my creative intelligence is much higher and I'm the meanest person you will ever meet. I fucking hate just about everyone. Even myself. The Eskimo alone I feel no hate for, for some reason. Maybe it's because they are the only group of people on earth that are forced to get along, and so have never oppressed or murdered another group for any reason. So my point is that if smart people were so great, where are the societies of abundance and utopias at? Where everyone just gets along and lives in peace? As a very smart person, I find the very idea of a utopia to be disgusting and vile, like a hospital or other institution or prison where man would be in a greatly unfree state as a price for the 'utopia' and peace and do you know why? It's because humans are fucking savages, worse than any animal and this is the actual reason we have survived this long. Because war became our truest name. Without war we would become even weaker, more feeble, more sedentary because without challenge there is no victory. So there you have it. A self-titled smart guys says war and suffering is better for the health of our species in the long run. Maybe I'm not as smart as I think I am, but I know one thing. Life itself is still here, and life on earth is brutal as fuck. I say we not forget the lessons of the natural world.

>>16486847
Which country you goddamn nigger
Not the whole world is one country

>>16491982
You're welcome. Yeah spending time there beforehand is definitely needed.
I think I was a good psychiatry nurse, I had the right temperament for it, but I'm pretty sure I would have been a terrible psychiatrist.
Good luck if you go for it!

>>16485749
Psychiatry is cool, but it's treated as if it's zodiac by pseuds.

>>16491301
You do realize suicide rate has gone down in Japan over the same period, and antidepressant use has gone up there just like in every developed country?

>>16489972

His post was an ad hominem yet to become an argument.

Are all Psuedosciences inherently bad?

>>16492475
That's a pretty disingenuous argument considering their financial markets crashed in '91 and the rest of Asia's collapsed on '97. The country also finally started taking serious measures in the 10s, which does include antidepressants, but also things we take for granted like suicide hotlines and counseling.

>>16492121
Because it is. Do you have any idea how poorly we understand the mechanics of psychoactice drugs prescribed to millions of people? Placebos regularly outperform antidepressants.

>>16485749
lol just take these benzos for years, no prob

>>16490241
Cavemen didn't have bad teeth. Dental problems are a side effect of civilization.

>>16485749
Its gay

>>16493795
I'm in nurse school and we have psychiatry as a subject. I agree that a lot of psychiatric work is based on guessing, but then again, it helps some people, so, more power to 'em. Helped me anyways.
I was kind of refering to people who think "psychoanalysis" has anything to do with your father having red hair having a direct correlation to your habit of smoking with your left hand instead of your right. But I'm on board with you, like 97%.

>>16493804
Benzos aren't described for more than 3 months in modern psychiatry, habibi. Your healthcare system must suck if all of you have such bad experiences.

>>16494343
lol just take these painkillers for years bro

Someone posted yesterday about him and sex with mothers.
Guess what happened.
I dream that my mom wants to seduce me while my uncle is in the next room.
She is naked on the bed and I'm on it too.
Then uncle comes in and somehow he didn't notice anything.
Thank you anon.
I almost fucked my mom.

>>16493795
Antidepressants are the black sheep of the family. They're shit to be sure, and unreliable shit at that.

There's no denying, however, the effectiveness of neuroleptics in alleviating the positive symptoms of schizophrenia.

>>16486711
lol what a retarded take.

Psychiatry has done nothing for my obsessional thought in a decade. All meds are the same bullshit. Well, benzos at least make me feel good for a moment.

>>16487384
you get that you post this because the existence of those pills and someone on them being happy makes you feel less special right?

like this whole post is literally projection. You are attacking him to make him feel less special because the existence of someone doing things makes your accomplishments seem less.

like basic monkey stuff bro, you went full monke

>>16489821
>>16490070
couple ah faggots over here!

>>16495938
>Only a retard wouldn't buy into our current ever-shifting paradigm and assume it'll be perfectly correct for the rest of eternity, unlike every single other one

>>16489939
Yeah, this is the list. I am studying to be a dreaded psychoanalyst and this is all we really read about.

Thousands of pages of different texts on how to help these people. At the same time going to conferences with neurologists and psychiatrists and psychologists all trying to make a difference.

Mostly people just work with normies. Here is a video to explain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbEEndKQCsw&ab_channel=lsvs

the back pain is regular life, the spine being the wrong way is dealing with humiliations, adrenotropic response and its consequences, and the blood diseases is anything from this list.

That is exactly what therapy is like. If you get a good therapist she/he uses directed attention to get you to deal with the pain of the humiliation sickness you are currently dealing with. If not they just pat you on the back and say you are fine.

Antidepressants are the best medication yet invented in psychiatry, anyone who thinks otherwise is trolling or just doesn't know how they work.

>>16490754
bravo

>>16496051
I don't quite understand what you're saying, are you making an analogy?

>>16490846
These are some good observations. It is indeed an "art", in that is has to be practiced using the conversation. So read a lot of books, you are going to need the skill.

>>16487559
this, but unironically. leave the weirdos free to be mystics, sages, poets and prophets, shamans and the like. much better than to confine them to a life of chemically stunted growth so that they fit into the societal mold. let the bacchae praise dionysius.

>>16491072
you have been humiliated too many times or in an important way.

So you need to work on feeling the pain of your inadequacy, crying about it, realizing it is no big deal. and then doing whatever you want instead, after you wipe your face off and don't die.

You think you must prove something is special about you or you will die. There is no need, as there is already nothing special about you, just things communicated to a little you that were way out of proportion. it is ok anon, that is everyone's life and now you have everything to live.

>>16491550
I found in my personal mental health treatment of NPD and cPTSD, that micro dosing anti-psychotics by prescription of a psychiatrist to be helpful.

The 'non-theraputic' dose opnened me up to the mild effects of the tranquillizer w/o the debilitating life consequences, and it allowed me to shortly thereafter leave the medicine and find that mental state on my own.

The medicine lead me to a phenomenology of "quiet" in my mind that I later found again off the drugs, using careful attention to my mood states and interior monologue.

Later utilizing attenuation to my personal narrative and careful concentration to my uncontrolled outbursts (over bearing pretentions in conversation, over sharing, dominate talking, and inability to share conversation space to the point of rage), I discovered how my mood would be disorganized by a psychotic reaction to competition for my 'specialness'.

Then I just took this knowledge and use it to temper my intrusive thoughts and order my conversations.

>>16496143
yes

>>16491072
>Being called retarded

There it is. You're not actually afraid of being retarded, and the way you shaped your thoughts in this post is proof enough that you are not anyway. You are afraid of looking dumb, which is saying you are afraid of the opinion of others.

So work on that. Once you realize it's all wind, you'll be fine.

>>16489923
There is already quite a bit of work on this in the UK. I expect good things in the next two decades. I am hoping that this extends into Psychology, too.

>>16496119
That's the problem. The efficacy is statistically valid but the effect size is so small.

>>16496119
Empirically speaking, sugar pills are the best medication yet invented by psychiatry

>>16496119
>or just doesn't know how they work.
But anon, nobody really knows how they work.

>>16490843
Why do you reply just to sign off as a sopranos fanboy? Do you have anything else to add?

>>16497626
Factually untrue. Maybe check any of the thousands of clinical trials on the topic?

>>16487242
One of the best posts in this thread. Guattari’s works written by himself are very helpful at fleshing out ideas from Deleuze and Guattari

>>16486873
wow the studies showed they are effective? no way! you’re a fucking idiot, stay in school forever

Why would a legitimate science need a secret society to protect Freuds teaching from critical examination or criticism?

>>16490793
found the schizo

>>16491735
as a psychiatrist myself loving my job but constantly questioning every bit of foundation and treatment steps, I wholeheartedly thank you for this post

>>16485749
It’s not scientific and I don’t think it should be. We can’t really quantify people’s personalities and pathologize normal reactions to having shitty lives or existing in shitty systems and it’s useless to try.

I’ve never seen psychiatric medication improve anyone’s lives, if anything they’re almost always worse off as a result. Even the people developing and seeking them don’t know how they actually work. The illusion of progress in the field is a lie too, antipsychotic medication actually shrinks the same parts of the brain that lobotomies removed so “mental illness treatment” isn’t any more advanced or humane now.

I’m partly in the anti-psychiatry camp, and partly supportive of Freudian and Lacanian psychoanalysis because they provide subjects with some sort of agency and contextualize our past experiences instead of using the “muh biology”/“chemical imbalance” shit.

>>16486840
What did you say

>>16485749
It’s not scientific and I don’t think it should be. We can’t really quantify people’s personalities and pathologize normal reactions to having shitty lives or existing in shitty systems and it’s useless to try.

I’ve never seen psychiatric medication improve anyone’s lives, if anything they’re almost always worse off as a result. Even the people developing and selling them don’t know how they actually work. The illusion of progress in the field is a lie too, antipsychotic medication actually shrinks the same parts of the brain that lobotomies removed so “mental illness treatment” isn’t any more advanced or humane now.

I’m partly in the anti-psychiatry camp, and partly supportive of Freudian and Lacanian psychoanalysis because they provide subjects with some sort of agency and contextualize our past experiences instead of using the “muh biology”/“chemical imbalance” shit.

>>16485749

I'm a psychiatry resident. If you go into academic medicine, it is quite scientifically oriented. no one believes in the dsm V as anything but a way to get insurance companies to pay for things.

>>16498734
Psychiatry is truly just as bad, or maybe even worse because they're so good at obfuscating their bullshit and making their practice seem legitimate or evidence based. Tell me how depression is the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain when nobody as ever been able to induce depression in a person by causing a chemical imbalance in the brain. They assume depression is a chemical imbalance and they pass it off as something they know. I would accuse them of sloppy thinking in this one instance but the entire field is built on similar assumptions.

>>16498797
midwit

>>16498879
That's about what I expect from people like you. I think on some level you know it's true, you're just not ready to admit it. If I devoted a significant portion of my life and invested so much of my future into psychiatry I would be hesitant in leaving it too. It's the same sort of barrier that keeps people from leaving cults and nobody is immune from it.

>>16498910
their defensiveness about it without disproving our points proves that even they subconsciously know it’s bullshit

>>16498268
There are thousands of clinical trials where antidepressants do not seem to work clearly better than placebos. If a sugar pill has a 20% chance of "curing" your depression and an antidepressant has a 23% chance but will also cause side effects that permanently fuck your life if you stay on them and quite possibly kill you if you don't, which one is "better?"

>>16498924
Link me one of those trials then. But not some shit study about some antidepressant combined with whatever, some metanalysis that disproves the effectiveness of SRIs.

>>16485749
Is there anything involving occulting psychology? Ex. Believing that schizophrenia is caused by demon possession. It’s the only one I would be interested in reading

>>16499154
Haven't read myself, but Aleister Crowley, from what i heard it's like applied Paganism.

>>16487242
>read about CBT
>literally just "don't think about it breh, if you think about it accidentally, write it down and confess to your therapist next session"
>it's just teaching meta-cognition to NPCs who's never really developed meta-cognition by themselves during childhood
>practitioners of CBT constantly start shit other schools of psychotherapy calling everyone else voodoo shamans

The fucking nerves

>>16485749
Man, there's like three Freud or Freud-adjacent threads going on at once, and they're all active. Is /lit/ having some secret Frasier marathon or something?

>>16499143
2018 meta analysis of hundreds of trials for 21 antidepressants that found only a small effect size for like three or four of the 21 drugs, none at all for the rest
https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.focus.16407

2019 study claiming the 2018 meta analysis made methodological errors, and if you correct it, the trials data show antidepressants don't have any effect
http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmjopen-2018-024886

>>16499828
> In terms of efficacy, all antidepressants were more effective than placebo, with ORs ranging between 2.13 (95% credible interval [CrI] 1.89–2.41) for amitriptyline and 1.37 (1.16–1.63) for reboxetine.
>All antidepressants were more efficacious than placebo in adults with major depressive disorder. Smaller differences between active drugs were found when placebo-controlled trials were included in the analysis, whereas there was more variability in efficacy and acceptability in head-to-head trials.

I would have to read the second one closely to be fair, bu the disprovement of a metaanalysis conclusion doesn't mean disproving the indivial studies it analysed.

Other studies:
>Medication vs placebo differences varied substantially as a function of baseline severity. Among patients with HDRS scores below 23, Cohen d effect sizes for the difference between medication and placebo were estimated to be less than 0.20 (a standard definition of a small effect). Estimates of the magnitude of the superiority of medication over placebo increased with increases in baseline depression severity and crossed the threshold defined by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence for a clinically significant difference at a baseline HDRS score of 25.
>Conclusions The magnitude of benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo increases with severity of depression symptoms and may be minimal or nonexistent, on average, in patients with mild or moderate symptoms. For patients with very severe depression, the benefit of medications over placebo is substantial.
From https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/185157

>Conclusions Relative to placebo, antidepressants are efficacious for pediatric MDD, OCD, and non-OCD anxiety disorders, although the effects are strongest in non-OCD anxiety disorders, intermediate in OCD, and more modest in MDD. Benefits of antidepressants appear to be much greater than risks from suicidal ideation/suicide attempt across indications, although comparison of benefit to risk varies as a function of indication, age, chronicity, and study conditions.

From https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/206656

>>16499828
retard

>>16498734
>>16498797

Big pharma pushed the chemical imbalance theory in the 90s to sell SSRIs. You are parroting commercials by saying this, 21st century research into depression focuses on 1) life course and how early life adversity alters neurocircuit function to predispose someone to depression 2) genetic correlation studies that identify alleles assocaited with predisposition to feelings of depression 3) gut-brain axis dysfunction (e.g. butyric acid from colonic bacteria), metabolic dysfunction (e.g. insulin resistance) and substance-related depression (i.e. how the periphery affects brain function) 4) modern lifestyles (e.g. computer use, social media, etc.)

Serotonergic modulators all show some efficacy in clinical trials for depressive symptoms. Current theories as to why are because in the short term, they all have some net increase in dopamine release (affecting amotivation, anhedonia, energy) in the short term, and long term alter synaptic plasticity through serotonin-receptor endocytosis mediated BDNF release. This is assumed to allow the person to develop new perspectives on their present situation, allowing them to view it less negatively, OR develop new strategies for managing their current depressing situation.

The best evidence for treating depressive symptoms, by the way, is the combination of psychotherapy + antidepressants.

>>16499828

Another principle of psychiatry, and particularly psychiatric research, is that the smaller and more rigorously conducted the study is, the higher quality. The trend in the rest of medicine of making ginormous RCTs focusing on a single variable is not going to work, because most psychiatric disorders identified by the DSM are garbage meal offered up to insurance companies. MDD per se certainly does not exist, and no psychiatrist worth their education practices like it does.

For an example of how useless the clinical criteria are usually used by such EBM studies, look at the output of the B-SNIP study. Even something so recognizable as psychosis is very poorly categorized by the current symptom clusters indicated by the DSM-V:

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.2015.14091200

>>16498879
>>16498910
>>16498918

That wasn't me, but I agree with the midwit label. Your perspective on this is shaped entirely by a pre-packaged counterculture narrative that you have consumed wholesale.

>>16498797
>Tell me how depression is the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain when nobody as ever been able to induce depression in a person by causing a chemical imbalance in the brain
b-but you don't have a license anon how can you disprove my work with simple common sense, that's not allowed

>>16500378
another midwit
>>16500363

Psychiatry is the superficial restructuring of the psyche, a systemic tool of domestication. Kys

>>16500519
and another one

>>16500513
>>16500530
You look like shit. Your jaw is recessed and your eyes are melting off your face. I can even tell without seeing you.

>>16500582
lmao what a fucking cope

>>16500519
Based. I remember btfo'ing this Psychiatrist fag in college who tried to damage control for them.

What's anon view on psychology vs psychiatry?
I'm far from expert but from what i have researched and personal experience i would use psychiatry as a last resort, see this thread for example, plenty of anons have different experiences with meds.
Psychology on the other hand it seems like it's for more "normal" patients, most can't deal with more serious cases, and you can argue that it's more of a "life coach".

>>16501626
This is not a debate, as they are not the same thing at all, and don't share the same goals. A bipolar or schizophrenic patient will profit from talking to a psychologist for many reasons, but alleviating the positive symptoms of his illness will never be one of them. For that, he will go to the psychiatrist.

>>16501626
there is not a way to deal with many mental issues without medication. The positive symptoms must be controlled for that person to have a satisfying life not filled with intrusive psychosis. It is just not possible.

schizo bump

>>16487384
>>16487607
You are right, something is fundamentally flawed, everything I think, from the start, the older I get the more obvious it becomes that I am not possessing basic human capabilities, never had, never will, and I should toughen up to killing myself already and stop this charade.
This is how I reason now, a week off the meds.

>>16485749
Complete layman here...just bought this book. Is this a good introduction? I always hear Jung praised for his works so it piqued my interest.

>>16499920
Wow you blew him the fuck out

>>16486905
woah >>>/x/

>>16504702
Your reasoning is captured by your insanity.

There is nothing for you at or after death.

And if you hold any kind of religious ideas you would be punished for termination.

Your inability to hold reality in your mind is just something to work on. The catastrophic scope of it is just an illusion.

There is not “size” or ranking to your mental confusion. You just need to let yourself feel the pain of not being, in your imagination, “whole”. You need to cry more anon. You need to have a phenomenology of surviving your grief. Of weeping about your pain, and then seeing that it will not kill you.

And you probably need to be on something so you can have your reason back. And not be moved about by your feminine emotions based on catastrophe.

>>16485749
Freud is a thing that must be overcome.

diagnosed schizo neet on lit for 5 years ama

>>16489821
>>16490070
This

>>16491014
A little bit too reasonable to this place.

>>16487923
That's a Very ingenuous opinion and you probably don't know what you are talking about. It's no Wonder schizophrenia used to be called "dementia praecox", shit is terrifying and, If not treated, It degenerates the patient's condition to a Very Sad state Very quickly. Besides, it's not Just funny hallucinations and deliriums or something, usually It leads to A LOT of anxiety

>>16490978
All that it's really silly. If you had any intelectual honesty or knew what you are talking about, you Will know that there is plenty of research with strong methodology. It may not "cure" people ir even work with everyone, but It does with most people and actually improve their life. Also, sending to psychologists is actually standart for whatever you are working with in psychoatry, as I said before, drugs don't do all the job alone. You Also seem to be adressing several of your countries problems as a field problem with one of those big conspiratory theories. THAT IS NOT TO SAY Psych cant be used with Very shitty greedy purposes, a Very slight change on diagnostic criteria for something such as adhd or ASD can Very easily enhance the sensitivity of those criteria and make more people who don't need spend money on drugs. But those are actually Very punctual things and people today don't Just 'create' disease like Freud did onde century Ago.

>>16507690
It was ironic. My ex's brother worked in a psych ward so I got to hear about how awful the illness was. Also is English your first language? Assuming you're >>16507850 too you might want to study up on some grammar.

Modern psychiatry is real
Freudian psychiatry was mostly bullshit though.

>>16486711
This, though I somewhat disagree psychoanalysis is bunk. As far as self-knowledge goes you'll get way more from reading somebody like Adler than you will treating getting a diagnosis and treating, say, anxiety as a pseudo-categorical flaw. I think psychology might've made a huge misstep in moving away from the fluid 'complexes' of Freud and Jung into the supposedly statistically distinct diagnoses of today. As far as my personal experience is concerned, 'obsessive neurosis' is a far more comprehensive and descriptive term than 'OCD'. Like with sociology the reliance on statistical study as opposed to spectulative and philosophical methodologies makes the field seem overconfident.

I'd also say I agree with >>16489923

>>16507872
No, it's not my First language. Also, my keyboard isnt set to english, so I have to constantly delete words and write them again and that end up fucking up my Verbs and stuff.

>>16507980
What is? And how is the field of psychiatry in whatever country you're from?

>>16486711
This 100%. Psychoanalytic "disorders" are often just groups of symptoms with no known cause. The are measured relativistically among other groups, so outliers will always be seen as sick by the psychoanalyst, especially if you are dealing with one who has limited patient experience. Plus once someone has a medical degree they can basically get away with anything, so there's no disincentive for over perscribing, except for how the doctor feels. It's a racket 100%

>>16507690
>schizophrenia used to be called dementia praecox
Cope, the defitintion shifted with the name. If the definition didn't change than the name wouldn't have. They're different conditions, one of which now obsolete, which goes to show how blatantly unscientific psyciatric treatment and psychological classification is. And let's not forget that schizophrenia was popularised in the US by drug companies pathologising black civil rights acitivists and hippies

>>16507997
My first language is Portuguese and I'm from Brazil. I'm not a psychiatrist yet but I'm about to finish med school. In Brazil we have a very good universal healthcare system that attends to a very large population, it's not perfect and it needs some serious systemic changes, but it saves people's asses all the time. In psychiatry, we are going through a process of decentralization of mental healthcare away from the hospitals and towards clinics. As it is with pretty much everything in Brazil it is a process with problems on itself, but with very good and even noble goals. Unfortunately, due to a mix of shitty politics and social stigma, the mental healthcare system is often impoverished. We also have some really good professionals in here and even some fairly good research centers for an underdeveloped country.

>>16506453
Glhf

>>16508224
Fibromyalgia is also a new disease, one not from the field of psychiatry, but rheumatology and neurology. The definition of hypertension and diabetes we use now are not the same we used on the 80ies and that doesn't mean to say those diseases changes. There are a lot of conditions in medicine which use clinical diagnosis and we happen to see common changes on those criteria every couple of years and those changes only means we started to value things we weren't paying attention before. Yes, science is not something completely objective that hovers over everyone's heads as something completely impartial that is not affected by the culture which it is inserted to as some people would like to believe, and modern psychiatry is always aware of that.

>>16508294
Those diseases changed*

>>16485749
You should drop out of med school directly. You're unworthy.

>>16508294
based anon
bless you

>>16487324
>Jung was the only based depth psychologist
The "collective unconscious" is the biggest quackery concept of any of them. It's near-mysticism.

>>16508044
>Psychoanalytic "disorders" are often just groups of symptoms with no known cause.
That's the most bizarre thing to me. I've come to the hunch that the modern DSM model of psychiatric illness is just taking the model we have of physical diseases where there's some germ that causes a collection of symptoms, and pasting that onto the study of the mind that actual neurology hasn't decoded yet.

Are there clinical differences between hiring "real" psychiatrists/psychologists/mental health experts and the local bored, nosy housewife whose kids have grown and moved away and likes to give advice to everyone?

>>16490236
>its good for capitalism
>will it ever stop
Lol no.

>>16485749
>Is it scientific?
Yes, but not really. It's supposedly a branch of the medical "science" but psychiatrists have no idea about the inner workings of the "psyche". They know how to chemically pacify madmen and give dysfunctional people palliative treatment, that's all.

>>16486711
You're lucky you don't know the horrors of serious mental illness and what it can do to people and their families. Clueless fuck.

>>16494343
I've literally never met anyone who's taken benzos for less than 3 months, and I've been all over Europe my negro.

>>16511448
wow, so you've met addicts

>>16489939
>>The real 'psychopaths' and 'sociopaths'. They either have no empathy at all, or just a very limited sense for maybe their immediate family or one or two people. Usually have very little fear as well and are prone to rage.
I have a bit of an issue with this statement.

Tbh, I think that empathy is an overloaded term with 2 meanings:

The ability to understand the emotional state of others, the realization that others hold different values and beliefs, have access to different pieces of information, leading them to view the world differently.

Or:
Possessing the same skills as I mentioned before, but also internalizing the pain and suffering of others (empathizing), leading one to genuinely try to understand and help other people.

Obviously there is a dependency between the two, meaning that if someone is bad at the first, he necessarily can't do the second. I think this describes Autists/Aspies, who famously have a terrible ability to discern others' emotions, or express their own. They also make terrible liars, owning to the fact they have difficulty dealing with the concept of different people believing different thing (because of the reasons I've outlined above). I think this also makes them drawn to science/engineering, where the singularly canon "truth" can be established. They can also seem rude and outwardly cold because of this.

Not so with psychopaths, who are known to be expert liars/manipulators. They probably have a good understanding of the emotional makeup of the people around them, and are experts at knowing what the others know/don't know, making them great at gaslighting and deception.

>>16511522
Yes, and they got their drugs prescribed for them by medical professionals. They didn't play the system.

>Anons don't even know the difference between psychology and psychiatry yet they dare to judge them as 'unscientific'
I thought /lit/ was smarter than /pol/ but apparently it's not.

>>16511958
This post brought to you by not reading. Welcome to /lit/.

>>16511523
Yeah that is interesting. People are saying that the autistic has a hard time abstracting out from single cases. Which is why you move something the autistic child freaks out b/c they cannot tell the room is the same. They probably cannot abstract out and tell that people are different. They are not quite sure where they are or where people’s feelings “are”, what with people always shifting internally.

Concerning Anti-sociality, I do not know if the literature says they CANNOT experience empathy for others, just that it is experienced with a greatly dismissed concern.

>>16511335
Engineering with art. People wish it was more exact. Which is why Elon is trying to jam needles into your hypothalamus.

>>16511958
Almost everyone in the thread seems to understand the distinction perfectly. Did you just assume this would be the case and post anyway like some stupid faggot?

>>16485749
>Is it scientific?
Not in the sense you're (probably) asking. But yes, current data implies that psychiatric issues do exist, are treatable by pharmaceutical and psychological treatment and that the advancement of psychiatry will be much, much more beneficial for scientific rigor than the pushing of antipsychiatry.

Science really isn't something as certain as people like to think, in real life it's impossible to control for every single factor in an experiment. And extrapolating from the results of an experiment is just as uncertain, how do you know that a naked flame will burn your hand? You simply observe that naked flames are dangerous, and avoid touching them.

You may learn later on in life that heating an object means raising it's internal energy, but that's not an explanation. It's simply delving a layer deeper into truth. As you uncover more layers, you'll see that beyond a certain point things simply are, without a reason to explain it. All we can do is observe those results as accurately as possible with science.
Read An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, it's good enough to help you understand more about how we think "scientifically".

>>16485749
>psychiatry
In theory. The basic proposition of psychiatry is that the function (not just the structure as in cancer or Alzhiemers or Parkinsons') can be diseased.

The is no good reason before the fact to rule out the concept that the part of your brain that gives you feels or the part that makes you pay attention or angry can malfunction. The question is how to treat these complex structures when scientists literally don't fully understand how many prescribed psychotropic medications work.
Psychiatry therefore is the equivalent of throwing shit at a wall and expecting some of it to stick.

>>16487559
fuck yes

if real knowledge were revealed it would make 90% of medics jobless faggots, and even civilization would have to be reinvented.

>>16485749
Freud was the first psychologist, Jung was the second and best psychologist. I can understand wanting to become a psychologist, but I would expect most of your classwork to be full of "peer-reviewed" bullshit such as claiming CBT works.

>>16486727
Jung cured schizo's without drugs.

>>16514359
It is literal fact that your behavior, thoughts and emotion interact and that approaching habitual problems with that in mind and using words to program your thoughts works. CBT is objectively just about the most factual and scientific part of psychology. Jung is great, so is CBT

>>16514314
haha

>>16490843
The fact that you recognize the quote proves that you're also one

>>16486986
why shouldn't you become a psych if you are interested in it? because some old dude told you to? you can be a psychologist and not prescribe drugs if you don't want to. psych needs all the help it can get. also, the mind isn't scientific of course science won't help.

>>16485749
>What is /lit/'s opinion on psychiatry?

OP or whoever, what do you take psychiatry to be, exactly? I understand it to be a collection of things, but the premise that I take to be central to Freud (and others) is that there exist unconscious mental states that are (or can be) the causes of conscious pathological mental states. The second premise, regarding the various practices of psychiatry, seems to be that there are methodologies to uncover these unconscious mental states. The third, that through the "uncovering" of these unconscious states (do they ever actually become conscious? or are we, the patient, just now theoretically aware of them?) we can somehow subvert their causal efficacy to bring about other (pathological) mental states.
If that's even remotely correct, I don't get it. Why would becoming aware (/conscious) of a mental state have any impact on the things it can cause? This requires a theoretical view of mental states that distinguishes conscious and unconscious states, not only in terms of their being conscious (or not) but in terms of the things that they can cause. But then the entire view of "unconscious mental states" becomes suspect, since our understanding of them cannot be pinned purely on the conscious quality of the mental state. So what in the fuck is the actual theoretical basis of the "therapy"?

>>16515924
Your are clumsily describing psychoanalysis, not modern psychiatry, and no, Freud isn't the basis of modern psychiatry, it is its ancestor.

>>16515973

I think that's right, and the pic of Freud had me thinking about psychoanalysis.. The question though then applies to psychoanalysis and any "psychiatry" that wants to engage with a psychological-cognitive theory of pathology/therapy. If we are just talking about "psychiatry" as a purely neurological topic, that doesn't seem to engage anything relevant to the discussions above.

>>16514359

You don't think Plato was laying out a psychological theory?

>>16514359
>>16514366
Based.
Deep psychology is the real answer IMO, but it's really hard to explain and to get into since it's far from scientific and closer to mysticism.