/lit/ - Literature

>>16442084
All of the above, plus he made Nietzsche seethe.

>>16442084
If he lived today he would have been a libertarian/ This is not to say that you should be a libertarian but to read better thinkers.

>In this moment I am euphoric
>can't stop seething

>>16442084
He wasn't even a real philosopher

>>16442084
If he lived today he would have been a libertarian. This is not to say that you should be a libertarian but to read better thinkers.

jesus would have only loved himself
you clearly never read the bible.

>>16442084
He literally never refuted either Platonism or Christianism, both of them include of itself anything original in Nietzsche which could result in a critique of such systems(especially late Plato).

>>16442105
Why did you post Sir Roger Scruton (pbuh)?

>>16442084
>makes Nietzsche seethe

>>16442114
There are no real philosophers. Real "philosophy" comes from epiphanies and experiences, reading philosophy is honestly pointless. Maybe some of them are interesting like Wittgenstein but most are just.. pointless and don't add anything to your life besides misery.

>>16442153

>>16442117
Nope. He was antidemocratic.

>>16442162

Are Platonism and Nietzschean theory reconcilable without devolving into Evola-tier autism?

>>16442180
Literally Plato's philosophy of the Instance overcomes every possible critique Nietzsche could and did have. It's well known he never really understood and completely studied Plato.

>>16442191
Explain.

>>16442098
only correct response itt

>>16442084
Jesus loves him very much, OP. Not many people would dare to say that (external satanic pseudo) God is dead.

>>16442141
>implying we aren't all divine because we are made in God's image, therefore God loves Himself (us)

>>16442193
It's esoteric knowledge anon, except Plato said it himself and its not revisionistic modernism. There's so much more to Plato than most people are even able of comprehending and will ever do in reading him(as great as that basic knowledge of his is, however). This is all specifically in his later dialogues, both his greater philosophical and poetic genius come out in their perfectly refined ability. Essentially, to put it in crude terms, Plato is rooting the Forms in the Instance, temporality. Such a crass critique as Nietzsche's of "life-denial" or abstraction away from the senses, completely misses the entire re-starting of a philosophy in Plato's late dialogues, and specifically the Parmenides(which most take as a negative culmination of logic, or knowledge, or refuting of misconceptions, is in fact a positively revealing and affirming work of Plato's philosophy, and life on a whole).

>"The third passage of the Parmenides is the most profound point to which Occidental metaphysics has ever advanced. It is the most radical advance into the problem of Being and time—an advance which afterwards was not caught up with [aufgefangen] but instead intercepted [abgefangen] (by Aristotle)
Though he is by far exaggerating here, the point remains. And here by Karl Jaspers in a letter to Heidegger:
> If the second half of his [Plato’s] Parmenides would be performed anew with today’s methods (and not Neoplatonically), then all bad metaphysics would be overcome, and the space would be open for a pure hearing of the language of Being.

>>16442214
God (and all his synonyms) yes, but not Jesus. Jesus loved only himself and everyone else fell short. Jesus was the son of God as everyman blessed with the holy spirit is a son og God.

>>16442153
>>16442162
>>16442175
Lmao, every time.

>>16442193
Don't bother, he never read Schopenhauer or Nietzsche.

>>16442117
>If he lived today
Assertion discarded. He could be anyone. It's hard to discern what amount of influence the society inflicts on a person. Maybe he would have some entirely different views.

>>16442250
You've just never read Plato, friend.

>>16442200
>>16442098
Schopenhauer was a legitimate genius, and not in an autistic Kant way. Almost done with World as Will and Representation and it's changed the way I view the world.

The problem is I get so excited by the concepts in it I put down the book every 20 minutes to think about the implications.

>>16442285
Have a copy, first reading some nietzsche. But that "problem" you have is not a problem. You need to think about what you have read if what you have read is profound.

>>16442240
Jesus is God

>>16442267
Schopenhauer and Nietzsche read Plato and you can't prove otherwise.

>>16442160
Why bother posting your philosophy if you aren't a real philosopher and reading philosophy is pointless?

>>16442290
>reading Nietzsche, who was inspired to pursue philosophy after reading Schopenhauer, before the ideas that he builds upon

>>16442294
God is everything and everyone, faggot.

Stoics are dead. Don't think they're too upset.

>>16442316
>Don't think they're too upset.
well they would be pretty bad stoics, if they really were very upset.

>>16442296
Oh wow, big deal. Yet Schopenhauer only frames Plato in his own system and yet more it is a FACT that Nietzsche either did not properly read Plato, or he just didn't understand him. He has critiques which just simply show a lack of understanding as to what Plato's late philosophy is(it's quite prophetic in how much it prefigured, almost every later thought).

>>16442347
You say this in every thread, but you don't give anything of substance. If you want people to care, you have to explain what you mean by things like Plato's late philosophy or Nietzsche's misunderstanding.

>>16442372
What have I said that lacks substance in your eyes, give me a quote?

>>16442384
>What have I said that lacks substance
Plato's late philosophy and Nietzsche's misunderstanding

>>16442400
That's not a quote.

>>16442084
Im an anarchist and stoic but like nietzsche

>>16442084
>Japan loves him
Is this true? I want info

>>16442550
he gets shilled heavily in their anime

t. watched Naruto in middle school

>>16442414
>He has critiques which just simply show a lack of understanding as to what Plato's late philosophy is

>>16442550
the games in the xenosaga trilogy are named after him

>>16442550
There's a German book, Die fruhe Nietzsche-Rezeption in Japan (1893-1903) that covers how early readers of Nietzsche there were already starting to translate and teach his works. He's had many Japanese translators and scholars.

And yes, manga and anime is full of references to him

>>16442302
Why yes that's what I'm consciously doing.
Why no I don't see any problems with that.
Have fun starting with old Egyptian literature before you can start with Plato.

>>16442153
>otherwise serious and intelligent people
Everything has to be filtered to make sure you've got the Correct Modern View, don't worry little retard hedonist peasant subslime, you can still enjoy your rubby rubby and feely goody goody in between 10 hour shifts at the funkopop factory.

The truth is that the belief in the enervation of masturbation goes back literally millennia and spans dozens and dozens of civilizations and societies, some without contact. It also includes some of the greatest medical minds who ever lived.

>>16442584
Cease with disingenuousness, look here:
>Such a crass critique as Nietzsche's of "life-denial" or abstraction away from the senses
However the Instance does not merely deny the senses or is lacking of them in anyway. Literally in the Parmenides, Socrates says that there is needed a new conception in which to understand these varying characteristics.

>>16442726
What are you even trying to say? Did you think Wagner was being pro-masturbation or something?

>>16442759
Does Nietzsche even bring up the senses in relation to Plato? Also, what do you think life denial means in relation to Nietzsche?

>>16442792
>Does Nietzsche even bring up the senses in relation to Plato?
Yes, it's implicit in his critique of Plato.

>Also, what do you think life denial means in relation to Nietzsche?
I'm not here to answer your questions you self-made enemy!

>>16442802
>his critique of Plato.
Why do you say "his" critique? It certainly did not originate with him, nor did a single one of his comments on epistemology or metaphysics. This was so obvious that he gave in and said "actually I was not trying to be original" in the preface to one of his books. Sometimes he even takes verbatim without acknowledgement.

>>16442842
Well for one someone like Goethe's dislike of Plato's theory of Forms also comes from something of a misunderstanding of Plato("the bridge which will not heal, between the philosopher and poet"), it is different from Nietzsche's in that it's critique by the basis of "life" does not find an exact centring in the senses, though he does include of itself that. Nietzsche, for whatever reasons perhaps, does champion the senses as the very meaningful phenomena of life.

>>16442550

>>16442802
>it's implicit in his critique of Plato.
Show me the critique where it is, I'd like to see what's being addressed. Nietzsche is not one for making mistakes like this, in my experience reading him.

>I'm not here to answer your questions
Not here to make a compelling argument either lol

>>16442764
I think his trying to say that the "otherwise serious and intelligent people" quip meant to pander to his liberal midwit audience makes the writer sound like an absolute retard.

>>16442934
>Nietzsche is not one for being contradictory and not caring about accuracy as long as his point comes across
Stop being so stupid anon. It's also quite well known he didn't even read Spinoza as much as he got out of him.

>Show me the critique where it is
No, I'm not going to spoonfeed baby as I said before.

>Not here to make a compelling argument either lol
Lol, well you should maybe correct me where I am wrong, rather than be the useless critiquing lacking in all positive accord that you are presenting yourself to be.

>>16443062
I don't remember reading that and couldn't find it, could you tell me where?

>>16443121
>Nietzsche is not one for being contradictory
That's correct. This has only ever been repeated by scholars and readers who have limited insight into Nietzsche... midwits in other words.

>No, I'm not going to spoonfeed baby as I said before.
You don't need to "spoonfeed" me because I've done the reading. Unless you provide something, though, I'm just going to keep calling out your posts as lacking the substance that they are.

>Lol, well you should maybe correct me where I am wrong
I already did, implicitly, and you know it.

>>16442285
thats the correct way to read philosophy anon. how tough is it to understand compared to say, aristotle?

>>16442098
Nietzsche was a lot more insightful when it comes to understanding the world.

>>16442550
http://djflanagan.blogspot.com/2016/01/japans-great-love-for-nietzsche.html

>>16442084
His comments on Kant actually made me seethe, I must admit it

>>16442084
>>Jesus would have loved him
How to spot a midwit

>>16442175
>>16442162
>>16442153
Proof that Wagner was a low-life piece of shit #36547

Seriously ffs, couldn't he just stop stabbing his friends in the back for 5 minutes? I just want to beat the shit out of him

>>16442084
>makes grammar seethe
>cause of death: being a bitch

>>16442084
>interprets Nature as being literally trees and forests and stuff
he was a brainlet

>>16443828
Post em

>>16444069
>interprets Nature as being literally trees and forests and stuff
wrong

>>16444601
take it up with him, he's the one who wrote that shit

>>16444640
no, I mean you're wrong about him interpreting nature that way

>>16444665
well, those were the words that he wrote that I read, so again, take it up with him

>>16444675
cite the passage

>>16444680
John 13:2
no seriously, why the hell would I memorize it? do you memorize every brainlet take you read?

>>16444694
you memorized it wrong, faggot

>>16442550
Yep. Manga and anime are filled with references to him, look at Berserk or Neon Genesis Evangelion. Hell, it even expands into videogames.

>>16442237
>Essentially, to put it in crude terms, Plato is rooting the Forms in the Instance, temporality.
holy shit how have i missed this?

>>16442084
>>Jesus would have loved him
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I doubt it

>>16442550
my oxford world classics copy of zarathustra specifically makes a point about how east asia obsessed over him. i think mishima was also heavily influenced by him as well

>>16442098
Plus was loved by Wagner

>>16442237
>Essentially, to put it in crude terms, Plato is rooting the Forms in the Instance, temporality.
Didn't Schopenhauer say this? But at any rate, this just means that there are some similarities between Nietzsche and Plato, though they are still at odds. This is why Nietzsche says he remains skeptical of Plato, because he thinks he is blending contradictory perspectives on reality together and not being totally honest (since one doesn't really need the Forms if one is talking about temporality).

>Such a crass critique as Nietzsche's of "life-denial" or abstraction away from the senses, completely misses the entire re-starting of a philosophy in Plato's late dialogues
I don't think Nietzsche ever actually calls Plato nihilistic like this. He calls him a "symptom of decline," which is a different thing (he called himself and philosophy in general a symptom of decline, even). Nietzsche praises Plato quite a bit at times.

>>16445920
>Nietzsche praises Plato quite a bit at times.
I refuse to believe this.

>>16445932
Why? It's not like he thinks Plato consciously blended different ideas together, or consciously contributed to the other things Nietzsche attributes to those he influenced. He still thinks Plato was a great Greek sage, and a much higher and genuine philosophical mind than Socrates.

>>16442285
>I get so excited by the concepts in it I put down the book every 20 minutes to think about the implications.
Based. Did you read all that he wants you to in the introduction before diving in?

>>16442114
Found the analytic.

>makes anarchists seethe
>stole entire philosophy from an anarchist

>>16445932
>>16445938
Here is an example from Twilight of the Idols:

>Schopenhauer speaks of beauty with melancholy ardour,—why in sooth does he do this? Because in beauty he sees a bridge on which one can travel further, or which stimulates one's desire to travel further. According to him it constitutes a momentary emancipation from the "will"—it lures to eternal salvation. He values it more particularly as a deliverance from the "burning core of the will" which is sexuality,—in beauty he recognises the negation of the procreative instinct. Singular Saint! Some one contradicts thee; I fear it is Nature. Why is there beauty of tone, colour, aroma, and of rhythmic movement in Nature at all? What is it forces beauty to the fore? Fortunately, too, a certain philosopher contradicts him. No less an authority than the divine Plato himself (thus does Schopenhauer call him), upholds another proposition: that all beauty lures to procreation,—that this precisely is the chief characteristic of its effect, from the lowest sensuality to the highest spirituality. Plato goes further. With an innocence for which a man must be Greek and not "Christian," he says that there would be no such thing as Platonic philosophy if there were not such beautiful boys in Athens: it was the sight of them alone that set the soul of the philosopher reeling with erotic passion, and allowed it no rest until it had planted the seeds of all lofty things in a soil so beautiful. He was also a singular saint!—One scarcely believes one's ears, even supposing one believes Plato. At least one realises that philosophy was pursued differently in Athens; above all, publicly. Nothing is less Greek than the cobweb-spinning with concepts by an anchorite, amor intellectualis dei after the fashion of Spinoza. Philosophy according to Plato's style might be defined rather as an erotic competition, as a continuation and a spiritualisation of the old agonal gymnastics and the conditions on which they depend.... What was the ultimate outcome of this philosophic eroticism of Plato's? A new art-form of the Greek Agon, dialectics.—In opposition to Schopenhauer and to the honour of Plato, I would remind you that all the higher culture and literature of classical France, as well, grew up on the soil of sexual interests. In all its manifestations you may look for gallantry, the senses, sexual competition, and "woman," and you will not look in vain.

>>16443173
>That's correct. This has only ever been repeated by scholars and readers who have limited insight into Nietzsche... midwits in other words.
I'm not saying that Nietzsche doesn't have a greater system or what I mean is logic of thought, if you can put it in those words, be he himself says outright man is contradictory and that practically he has every right to be too as long as he's expressing a truth. Particular aphorisms and quotes contradict each other regularly.

>You don't need to "spoonfeed" me because I've done the reading. Unless you provide something, though, I'm just going to keep calling out your posts as lacking the substance that they are.
What do you need, hmmph? I've already asked for a quote where I'm lacking in substance and you've been unable to give one.

>I already did, implicitly, and you know it.
Not at all anon, I know that I am right, you merely said I was wrong, on particular issues, but that's not a correction.

>>16443868
Lmao, talk about a thread about SEETHEing. Wagner was being completely caring however, but of course I don't blame Nietzsche either-- and I couldn't blame the good-willed doctor.

>>16445885
Yep, I know, it's a pretty brilliant difference that most who even study him don't entirely pick up, they just see, for example the last part of Parmenides where he shows this, as just a technical part of his philosophy and by no means exemplifying something this important. Heidegger talked about it a bit, including Derrida.

>>16445920
>(since one doesn't really need the Forms if one is talking about temporality).
Not at all, these things fit perfectly in the highest metaphysical reality. It's the highest possible conception of traditionality, if you want to use that term, and is really the very same philosophy as that of Heidegger's.

>Nietzsche praises Plato quite a bit at times.
I always got the feeling Nietzsche liked Plato more than he let on, but I think this like was always coupled by a difficulty in exactly understanding his system, hence as you said earlier(and I found that quite useful), Nietzsche was sceptical of how Plato merged what he thought of as contradictory things, but entirely genius. I mean, Nietzsche seems to me to never have really, in Plato's whole, grasped his late developments.

Any thoughts?

>>16445982
He has a point, but man he's going on the specifically sexual a bit isn't he?

>>16442084
you genuinely have no idea of what you're talking about and youll be called out on it IRL one day lol

>>16446013
>Not at all, these things fit perfectly in the highest metaphysical reality. It's the highest possible conception of traditionality, if you want to use that term, and is really the very same philosophy as that of Heidegger's.
But in temporality, in the Heraclitean sense, everything is illogical at bottom; every thought that arises, every phenomenon, is a misjudgement from our limited perspective. The Forms seem like clinging to objects in a world that is without either subject or object, and don't need to show up at all when addressing temporality. Heraclitus didn't need to mention them, for example.

>I always got the feeling Nietzsche liked Plato more than he let on, but I think this like was always coupled by a difficulty in exactly understanding his system, hence as you said earlier(and I found that quite useful), Nietzsche was sceptical of how Plato merged what he thought of as contradictory things, but entirely genius.
I don't think he really hides it. He refers to Plato plenty of times throughout his bibliography, often to draw upon some insight of Plato's to refute someone else's. But, unless Plato's later philosophy was a precursor to Nietzsche's will to power (which rested on the ideas of perspectivism and the multiple drives) I'm not sure that there was a misunderstanding, and Nietzsche understood where they differed philosophically. Still, Nietzsche doesn't really think Plato was intentionally trying to be duplicitous; if anything, he blames Socrates more (and he didn't have pure disdain for Socrates either).

>>16446022
He considered sexuality as being fundamental to Greek spirituality.

>>16443868
peak slave morality

>>16446113
See, this seems to me somewhat perverse. After reading all of the Greeks myself, I never thought this. Yes, I concede that these things held a direct importance for the Greeks, but to praise the sensual in such an overbearing way, as if the Dionysus cults were merely about sensual "Yes", or that Greece on a whole completely surrounded this sexual absolutism, not just sensual, I simply cannot see it.

>>16446243
There's a ton of literature on the subject, so I'm sure there's truth to it. Of course, Nietzsche also has the tendency to amplify the effect, but he considers his struggle to be against several centuries of philosophy, and he was writing in 19th century Germany / Switzerland, so he probably thought he had to do that to get a point across.

>>16442237
>Essentially, to put it in crude terms, Plato is rooting the Forms in the Instance, temporality.
please put it in cruder terms a retard can understand

>>16446435
He's rooting it in time, and in what can be called "life", life-affirming. But Plato is both the transcendent of life and its innermost sensual reality, he is prophetic in his vision of the future, by his vision of philosophy; so many great thinker recreate his ideas and footsteps.

>>16446243
That's because Nietzsche was proyecting his desires.

>>16446455
That's called will to power, anon

hey bros, where do I start with nietzsche

>>16442550
Japs are obsessed with killing the abrahamic idea of God

>>16442285
Based Schoppiebro. The things I'd do to spend a day with Arthur.

>>16446693
If you want his core ideas quicker and you're confident in your ability to read between the lines, then start with Beyond Good and Evil, then Genealogy of Morality, Twilight of the Idols, The Antichrist, and Thus Spoke Zarathustra. If you want to be thorough, read chronologically from The Birth of Tragedy.

>>16442550
MC of a recent popular VN

>>16442206
this has got to be bait. I'll pray for you.

>>16442180
As far as a universal absolute Good that can be arrived at indepedently by both reason and instinct, they are irreconcilable. But other aspects of Plato’s philosophy, like the idea of forms in general, is highly congruous with how Nietzsche talks about wills/spirits

>>16442285
I wouldn't call that a problem at all. He addresses that a bit in "On Thinking For Oneself."