/lit/ - Literature

rien de plus pathétique que de cracher sur la chrétienté mdrrrr encore une fois les anglos ont trois cent ans de retard, on s'est déja tapé les maçons y'a quelques siècles.

>>16426771
Basé

What facts?

>>16426762
The Romans tried to warn us

source: trust me

>>16426806
The romans are the americans of yesteryear

>>16426762

It is kind of fucked to think about how much of the world was built upon what might have been the teachings of some random desert bum just making shit up

>>16426762
I'm not even christian but these bugman interpretations of history are always so repulsive. The palpable resentment, the self-righteous attitude, everything about it makes me want to side with whatever side they're seething against.

Jesus was a delusional rogue rabbi whose mother Mary was an adulteress and father Joseph a cuckold. His whore mother put into his mind since he was a young child that God was his "real father" and that he was a very special boy. Jesus grew very knowledgeable about the Old Testament, began to believe that he was the "Emmanuel" whom Isaiah spoke of and so he sought to fulfill the prophecies as the Messiah which he studied.

He was an apocalyptic preacher whose teachings were never meant to be written down, in fact, he announced the end of the world as being imminent and told people to give up everything and follow him; he stated that his generation was to witness it all. He was crucified, died and, of course, never rose from the dead, but his closest and most faithful followers convinced themselves of that lie and went on to preach, converting many.

For several decades following the decomposition of Jesus' corpse, stories and legends about him were spread by word of mouth before some of them were selected and written down, thus leading to the Gospels whose anonymous authors mostly copied each other. Then came Paul, an energetic and zealous repentant ex-hunter of Christians who claimed to have a vision, joined the apostles and wrote the bulk of the New Testament, introducing many teachings of his own, hence the term "Pauline Christianity". Without him, Christian theologians would be helpless.

Since Jesus appealed to the uneducated, illiterate and lowly people which constituted the overwhelming majority of the Roman Empire, his death cult spread like wild fire. The roman government, being opportunistic, eventually made it the official religion thus cementing and validating its existence. Due to this, nations grew culturally with Christianity at their core and so it has lasted to this day, aided by theologians' relentless mental gymnastics, colonialism, as well as teachings of repentance, redemption and paradise after death which attract the emotional human mind.

>>16426820
And Christians are the commies. It all makes sense now...

>>16426831
Based

>>16426831
Maybe the real Christianity were the philosophies we made along the way.

>>16426822
I think thats kind of cool actually. I wish there was some hobo nowadays that people revered but we will probably never again see that level of influence over society from the homeless population

>>16426820
Nah, Rome was traditionalist bordering on the obsessive. It was a shining beacon to the world.

>>16426939
Does that make America Greece then?

>making this all up just because you want to masturbate without feeling guilty about it

>>16426762
>lies from the Talmud
How convincing
>Paul
Wrote less than a quarter of the new Testament.
>Followers deluded themselves
To the point that all the apostles died horrendous deaths and not once recanted their faith?
I'm sorry but not even the most deluded cult carries out actions like that.
They might commit painless suicide or die in battle, but being tortured to death and not a single one recanted.
>Death cult
What?
>Appealed to the underclasses
Rome converted because the Equestrians and Army converted.
In the 3rd century it was less than 2% of the Empire's population.

>>16426968
>less than a quarter
Sorry, less than a third.

It's all so tiresome

Literally every author besides christcucks claims yeshua was the bastard son of a roman. Seethe harder kike worshippers.

>>16426931
Kek

>>16426939
>Rome was traditionalist bordering on the obsessive
lmao, this board is a joke. the roman empire is the most materialistic entity in history, seconded by the US

>>16426946
historical reification is reddit-tier superhero analogies for 4chan incels.

>>16426762
>facts
ok shlomo

>>16426771
grinçant

>>16426996
The Byzantines were so autistic about their version of Christianity that iconoclasm happened, seems a bit less materialistic than the Soviet’s or something

>>16426822
To be fair most of those "teachings" were manufactured later by highly educated people

>>16426996
Nonsense. Rome was one of the most religious cultures to have ever existed, and they rejected all forms of alterations of their traditions and customs. There was nothing in Roman everyday life that wasn't infused completely with religion, not to mention the non-everyday events.

Rome was the completed system of Traditionalist Spiritual Patriarchy.

>>16426946
Of course. The Greeks were misogynistic, homosexual, and oftentimes pedophilic too. You can observe the same traits in Americans these days, especially if you go on Twitter: there's people who applaud women for every single thing they do, as if women were children, every zoomer is either gay, or into traps, and then there's the whole "minor-attracted person" too.

To be fair there's plenty of people on 4chan who argue that the age of consent should be lowered to 12, since probably the only way they can think of to get puss is to groom a literal child. Then they post graphs about how girls reach their peak attractiveness at 12-13 years of age, and then it's downhill from there, and how women are generally attracted to older men, while the opposite isn't true, in a pathetic attempt to try and give their proposition some kind of legitimacy, while knowing all too well that they're just trying to cope with their crippling insecurity and sexual inadequacy, and that there's nothing more off-putting to women than that.

>>16427060
ah yes it's another american confuses the meaning of traditionalism episode

What the hell do you know about anything? You're somekind of weirdo, trying to preach and be all moral and judgemental on a subject you know jack about.
Go kill yourself.

>>16426996
> the roman empire is the most materialistic entity in history
THIS
>this board is a joke
also this
this board does not read and knows nothing about roman empire that is why it is so appealing to people here, this place is just /pol/
look at this retard >>16426905 for instance, only a poltard to believe in such dichotomies

>>16427060
>spiritual
not even mathematics was a thing in ancient rome you absolute fuckwitted poltard, imagine something like metaphysics and theology. the closest thing to religion was idolatry of the state and the leaders much like communists worship marx lenin engels maozedong

>>16426968
>To the point that all the apostles died horrendous deaths and not once recanted their faith?
We dont actually know how they died.

>>16427102
>no one was spiritual until my jew on a stick came to earth
Imagine being this warped

>>16427102
Wait, so western mathematicians like Diophantus were literally all starting from scratch each generation up until the renaissance barring three copies of Euclid?

>>16427060
>they rejected all forms of alterations of their traditions and customs
Have you read Roman history in any way shape for form?
Because I can tell you that they changed their religion, a lot.
It initially started out as a Triumvirate of Gods, before the Pantheon of Greece was adopted and conflated with the original Triumvirate.
Religious ceremonies were added to, newly created, adopted or fell out of favour.
Their religion was syncretic and added massively from surrounding religions.
Augustus as part of his propagandist efforts to 'restore the traditional Rome' brought back several religious festivals that had fallen out of favour.
>Everyday life
Well, in so far that ancestor worship was performed, but ritualistic prayer to deities was not part of the normal life of the Romans.
They didn't even have a dedicated Priestly class for goodness sake, it was a mix of political and religious with the political coming foremost.

Me thinks you might be projecting your desires on what you perceive to be the height of 'traditionalism'.
Might I suggest that you look at the Carolingian age and Plantagenet age especially in England for this Traditionalist Spiritual Patriarchy.

>>16426931
10/10

>>16427074
>an advocate of maintaining tradition, especially so as to resist change.
I did not. Get your Evola/Guenon nonsense out of here.
>>16427102
The absolute copes. The traditional gods and their related traditions had much more impact on the life of the Romans than did the Emperor cults. Not to mention the Lares and various ancestor worship relating to the various tribes of Rome.

Also apotheosis is true. The emperors truly did become deified. Simple as.

>>16427117
We do for some at least.
St. James was executed by a sword under Herod's command.
St. Peter was crucified upside down.
St. John, though not martyred was thrown in boiling oil.
St. Paul was beheaded.

The other Apostles it is less sure when they died and by what means however all are supposed to be martyred.

>>16426982
dilate

>>16426982
Refuted by Origen

>>16426996
cringe
>>16427061
based

>>16427154
Given that Guénon is the person who coined the term traditionalism, I'm fairly certain you are the one confusing its definition kek.

>>16427102
>the greeks and romans couldnt count until the jews showed up
Pipe down, Josephus.

>>16427127
Not only did they eventually adopt the Greek Dodekatheist pantheon, they swapped the Archaic Triad (Jupiter, Mars, Quirinus) for the Capitoline Triad (Jupiter, Juno, Minerva) before doing that.

They died for Christ. Will you anon?

>>16427176
Didn't you just call rome "materialistic"? Who coined that one?

>>16427184
>Archaic Triad (Jupiter, Mars, Quirinus) for the Capitoline Triad (Jupiter, Juno, Minerva)
I didn't know that.
Neat.

>>16427127
>muh Romans just copypasted the Greek gods meme
When will this shit die?

What Numa Pompilius set up remained until Christianity conquered Rome.
>They didn't even have a dedicated Priestly class for goodness sake
And that is a good thing.
>Might I suggest that you look at the Carolingian age and Plantagenet age especially in England for this Traditionalist Spiritual Patriarchy.
That is Christianity. Christianity is allied against tradition. It is a revolutionary religion.

>>16427176
I've not once said traditionalism though so you're clearly some sort of midwit. Also it is usually spelled with a capital T.
>imagine not being able to separate perennial nonsense Traditionalism and tradition

>>16427187
me on the left

>>16427206
>When will this shit die?
I didn't say that.
I said they adopted it and mixed it with their original Triumvirate.
>Some traditions survived
And? Others didn't.
The Secular Games are the first that comes to mind, but there are others.
>No priestly caste is against traditionalism
Wow, that's an interesting take.
What traditionalism are you invested in then perchance?
>Christianity is revolutionary
Which is why it has opposed revolution at every turn and has been the bastion of reactionaries for 1,500 years?

>>16427154
yes, obviously apotheosis is true but not by ascending to corrupt power, engaging in Opinions, like Plato would say. even pharaonic kings did not reach apotheosis by communing with crass activities but only after becoming a priest.

>>16427205
The former is the standard IE tripartite function. It's also really fucking weird, as Quirinus is Romulus apotheosized, but Quirinus was around before Romulus was apotheosized, similar to how when Numa Pompilius founds the Roman Religion, Jupiter tests him to see if he is worthy of founding it, by seeing how faithful he is to the religion he is seeking approval to found. Time flows both ways. Something similar happens with Hercules founding the Cult of the Olympians, in that he creates a religion, and in doing so changes the past. Interestingly, we do actually know two of the three parts of the Greek tripartite system, or rather the Mycenaean one: Zeus as sacred, and Enyalius as martial. One of the epithets of Enyalius is "Ares", a title which would go on to replace his name, with "Enyalius" becoming a title. We presently have no idea who the Mycenaean fecundity God was. This ties into the whole "europeans didnt have theology until Jews came along" thing, which Christfags occasionally tote out, which is just on its face wrong.

The latter triad, the Capitoline Triad, however, is a straight rip from the Etruscan.

>>16427206
The Romans had an enormous priestly class, however. The Flamens were the highest of this class, but there were many, many priests below them. Hell, every landowning Citizen was a priest, he had to be. The Pater Familias was an inherently religious, priestly role.

>>16427206
>>They didn't even have a dedicated Priestly class for goodness sake
>And that is a good thing.
I thought you were for Tradition, anon.
another poltard proving this board is a joke

>>16427240
yeah, i think the whole "rome had no theology" thing is just a symptom of people not actually having a clue about rome's religion. ive seen people on here argue that rome's religion was literally copied from plato wholesale, by someone who didnt know what a "flamen" was.

>>16427260
>I thought you were for Tradition
Yes.

>>16427061
>age of 12-14 considered pick attractive for 7 milion years
>"oy vey marxist friends we must destroy western family values by (((liberating))) women"
> M-M-MUH PEDOPHILIA

>>16427240
>>16427265
i beg you, show me a single roman metaphysical work or even theological work that does not rely on greek myth altogether

It literally doesn't matter whether Christ existed or what his motives were. What matters is that Catholicism embodies the traditions and philosophy and Europe. Any attempt to create some "pure" pagan LARP will never get serious traction.

Any reactionary, traditionalist movement will be Christian for this very simple reason.

>>16427240
>europeans didnt have theology until Jews came along

I don't think even most christians believe this, and besides, christianity's theology/philosophical grounding is the hellenic half of christianity, while only the "base", the tales themselves, are semitic.

That is to say that the key to the success of christianity IMO was making platonic/stoic/hellenic thought palatable to the masses, since they were embedded in a set of memeable tales instead of just being dry philosophy.

TL;DR: Christianity never would have happened as it did without hellenic influence.

>>16427291
Varro and Ovid. If you want more, read Archaic Roman Religion, Dumezil quotes or cites every piece of literature from the ancient world that we have. You can't NOT have a metaphysics, you can't NOT have a theology.

>>16427295
Yes, yes, the Schema and beards are BASED, run along back to plebbit little bugman.

>>16427295
By that logic, communism embodies the traditions and philosophy of Russia, despite stealing those things from the previous order.

>>16427295
>t. larper
Antipope Bergoglio is a Jewish schismatic. Fuck off and stop trying to divide the church, you post Vatican II LARPer.

>>16427236
One can still express the virtues while engaging in politics. Augustus certainly fits the bill to be worthy of apotheosis.
>>16427260
I knew they had priests I was just going along with whatever he was saying to point that a more relaxed priestly hierarchy is superior to the like you've seen in India for example. The highest priests were usually reserved for members of the state though which was elected. Consuls often having a sort of priestly role. A lot of Greek city states also elected their high priests, if a philosopher was well-liked in the city(no matter his philosophical school) he could be elected by the people to serve as the priest in the temple.

The idea that Christ was born via divine conception was likely to have been conceived of after his death. Once they proclaimed him the son of God, they had to explain how he was born to a mortal woman. The idea that Joseph was a cuckold and Mary was a slut takes away from what otherwise is a perfectly valid analysis.

>>16427232
>The Secular Games are the first that comes to mind
What do you mean? From what I can tell they survived.
>Which is why it has opposed revolution at every turn and has been the bastion of reactionaries for 1,500 years?
Reactionary preserving its revolution is still revolutionary even if the revolution is 1500 years old.

>>16426762
cringe thread

>>16427333
No, Communism embodies the values of the Soviet Union. Trying to bring back the Soviet Union without Socialism/Communism is like trying to revive Europe without the Catholic Church. The Church created European identity.

>>16426762
He was a Cynic philosopher, actually

>>16427320
I know one can't not have them in the same way one can't not have mathematics. The thing is that with the Romans these things - foundational and the most important things for a civilization - became neglected and turned into almost superstitions, being restricted merely to practical instead of contemplative, that is, THEORIA was ignored by them. Romans were not a spiritualcentric people, just accept it. Oh and Varro and Ovid were not metaphysicians. Ovid resorted to Greek mythopoesis with accounts, tales, traditional cults predating for roughly a millenium his Metamorphoses.
You cite an expert on Roman religion and cannot cite a single metaphysician, theologian?

>>16427371
Trying to revive Europe with Christianity is like trying to revive Russia with Marxism.

>>16427355
This. I imagine he was also a Greek-influenced philosopher of some sort who decided to reject the Torah in favor of a new teaching he came up with. Also out of pure hypothesis I think he experienced an ego death of sorts during his baptism

>>16427358
>From what I can tell they survived.
They didn't.
Augustus re-introduced them after a couple of centuries without them.
It was a major selling point of his traditionalist propaganda.

How is Christianity revolutionary?
It is the tradition of Europe.
All pre-Christian aspects of Europe that survive are those that were preserved within the Catholic Church.

>>16427355
So anything that points to a divine chirst had to be fabricated because...?

>>16427396
>they didn't explicitly write down texts labeled "the mathematics of rome" and "the metaphysics of rome" so they didnt have mathematics and metaphysics
Then no group of people has any metaphysics. You've turned "mathematics" and "metaphysics" into totally useless terms, as no one had these things until 20th century academics in philosophy departments started giving each other poobah titles like "Dean of the Chair of Mathematics" and "Chair of the Dean of the College of the School of Metaphysics". You've taken philosophy and theology and transformed them from understandings of the world and life into meaningless word games for nerds to quibble over.

Go read a book, fag.

>>16427428
Start with Genesis.

>>16427428
>Augustus re-introduced them after a couple of centuries without them.
>It was a major selling point of his traditionalist propaganda.
Then they survived. And it is another proof of the traditionalist mindset of the Roman people.
>All pre-Christian aspects of Europe that survive are those that were preserved within the Catholic Church.
And all those were made worse in every way within the Catholic Church and those that did not survive did not survive precisely because of the Catholic Church.
>went from apotheosizing Hercules, Achilles and Augustus to apotheosizing some random nerd that happened to have his leg gnawed off by a lion in the arena
>went from having the god of wine in all its glory, history, mythology and aesthetics associated with him to the patron of vineyards/wine that became that patron merely because he was obese and happened to die in a vineyard

>>16427488
>Start with Genesis.
You are an idiot is all I can say.
May you find the light.
I will pray for you.

>>16427428
>How is Christianity revolutionary?
Sounds like you need to do some reading. Start here, then go crack open a Bible. This is a pretty common affliction you LARPers have, thinking that "tradition" is some physical thing you can hold on your hand and count. It's actually pretty humorous, you guys just take a big fat shit on Evola and Guenon by applying the whole "Reign of Quantity" to Tradition and tradition.

>>16427415
No, because Christianity led to the creation of the European identity. Marxism didn't lead to the creation of Russia, it led to the Soviet Union. So again, to correct your analogy, Europe without Christianity is like the USSR without Marxism.

>>16427396
Your idea of a pagan theologian never existed, anywhere. Believe it or not but the average Greek were not a Platonist even if it might have been the most popular metaphysics among the polytheists that were philosophically minded.

>>16427517
So, the European people didn't exist before Christianity? Did they just spring out of the ground at the Pope's command?

>>16427531
>varro and ovid didn't exist
Now you're just going full schizomode. Go read a book.

>>16427495
>Then they survived. And it is another proof of the traditionalist mindset of the Roman people.
No resurrecting something is not something surviving.
In that case Rome never fell it just became the Papal States.
>Some random nerd
You worship sacrifice, how is this any different?
It takes great strength to be martyred.
Christians have Warrior Saints, St. George is probably the most common patron Saint and he was a Praetorian.
St. Louis, St. Charles the Martyr, St. James the Great, The Archangel Michael.
Also, imagine apotheosizing homosexuals. LMAO at you pagan.
>patron merely because he was obese and happened to die in a vineyard
Fucking citation needed nigga.

>>16427280
>age of 12-14 considered pick attractive for 7 milion years
By who, some pedophile priests? The same ones whose descendants agree with them today.

>>16427532
No but a united European identity didn't exist.
There were Romans, and there were Greeks and there were Barbarians.
There was never this 'Europe' until Christendom.

>>16427517
If anything Islam had more to do with creating your supposed European identity. It is not like the Church wanted to be boxed into Europe... If Islam had not arrived at the European borders then your "Christendom" would have extended across Africa and the Middle East for the last 1500 years.

>>16427550
>By who, some pedophile priests?
pfff at what age do girls have their first period?
NOT being attracted to a 12-14 yo girl is unnatural.

>>16427561
So then Europeans don't actually exist, everyone that is Christian is "European", such that Africans and South American Indios are "European".

>>16427280
>age of 12-14 considered pick attractive for 7 milion years
We've been also killing and raping and pillaging each other like room-temperature IQ barbarians for the past 7 million years. Just because something has been done since the dawn of humanity, doesn't mean it's still worth doing once you get to a certain level of civilization.

Marrying young *does* have evolutionary benefits, of course I'll give you that, children are less likely to have genetic defects, you can have more offspring, etc... but don't try to tell me that it's not barbaric to marry someone who's half your age. If you think that should be socially acceptable, then you may find that Islam to be more your speed. It comes with the added bonus that you won't be killed because you're an infidel after Muslims take over the world.

>>16427585
>like room-temperature IQ barbarians
The IQ of Europeans has not changed significantly essentially ever. The only exception is Scandinavians, whose IQs have increased from an average of 100 in the Viking Age to 105-110 in the Modern period due to selective pressures against schizophrenia.

This correlates with the low European inbreeding rate, and correlates with the incredibly high Islamic inbreeding rate. Muslims fuck their sisters because they're dumb, not because they're Muslim.

>>16427582
No, the European identity is intertwined to Christianity but is exclusive within it.

>>16427582
are you pretending to be retarded?

>>16426822
imagine having your whole continent be wiped out in the name of that sand hobo

>>16427577
t. literal manchild

Stop blaspheming your Lord and Savior

>>16427550
what do priests have to do with anything I said? in your opinion the first homo sapiens waited with intercourse until he was 18?
>>16427585
>We've been also killing and raping and pillaging each other
People all over the world still do just with different means and for different gains. Me and you could think we don't since we've been born in a place comfortable enough to be free from such situations in broad daylight. The state of permanent conflict, competition and struggle is unavoidable. The more we renounce it the harder it will blow up in our face.
What does it mean worth? It's not worth for a people to have more of healthier offspring?
It doesn't mean we should stop doing it either without a good reason and especially for one stemming from chandala morality.
>don't try to tell me that it's not barbaric to marry someone who's half your age
Why is it? a man gets to have his offspring and he has to provide for his family and children in return. Your conception of love seems like that from a romantic novel at best and from a disney movie at worst.
>Islam to be more your speed
Not really, but it'd much prefer it to Christianity

>>16427824
>in your opinion the first homo sapiens waited with intercourse until he was 18?
No and I don't care about the first homo sapiens. The first one existed hundreds of thousands of years ago. If that's your point of reference for maturity, you're autistic. Priests are relevant here because they're autistic and unevolved in the same way.

>>16427061
So you're saying these people on 4chan are a direct result of unique aspects of American culture and society, which is itself most comparable to Ancient Greece than anything else? It sounds like you're saying Ancient Greece was pedophilic due to a myriad of inadequate men.

>>16427836
>No and I don't care about the first homo sapiens.
It was just an example. The thing is you're arguing against the only thing that remained unchanged throughout 300 000 years of human evolution.until 20th century. Do you really think it's better not to have too many healthy offsprings for civilizations to survive? For example, the civilization that created values, which you seem to hold in such high regard?

>>16427303
>I don't think even most christians believe this,
Depends on how you want to define "believe"; most of them are convinvced that pre-Christian European religious thought was Chick-tier "human sacrifice, demon worship and orgies" nonsense while most of the rest either turn their nose up at it, have never been exposed to it more than superficially or maintain that it didn't exist in any meaningful way.

>and besides, christianity's theology/philosophical grounding is the hellenic half of christianity, while only the "base", the tales themselves, are semitic.
It gets even more interesting when you start considering sources and manuscripts and it starts looking like basically everything supernatural in the NT was added decades later and that Christ was originally just a Hellenistic Jew who decided to start his own cult and eventually kicked up enough shit to get executed.

>That is to say that the key to the success of christianity IMO was making platonic/stoic/hellenic thought palatable to the masses, since they were embedded in a set of memeable tales instead of just being dry philosophy.
>TL;DR: Christianity never would have happened as it did without hellenic influence.
The NT is insanely hellenistic, especially looking at its state prior to the council of Nicea. You almost get the impression that the fact that Jesus was Jewish is almost incidental and that they played up his Jewishness in order to draw people away from larger sects of Judaism.