/lit/ - Literature

>>16426576
>she's made a few worthwhile points here and there.
X

>>16426576
You guys won't believe what I found in the early life section of her wikipedia page.

>>16426576
gender trouble is definitely worth reading if you're at all interested in gender and feminism. a classic in the field

>>16426675
Then again, who the fuck cares about feminism and gender

'the trouble with gender' is still a nice review of her muddled theoretical apparatus

>>16426689
downvote

>>16426700
thanks I'll go read that.

>>16426576
Bad? How?

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/08/20/some-say-particulars-ronell-harassment-case-are-moot-it-all-comes-down-power

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/nyregion/sexual-harassment-nyu-female-professor.html

>>16426576
>>>/lit/thread/S14635661#p14638079

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d16kMXUXPOE

>zizek: full auto arguments in his third or fourth language
>butler: um ummmm ummm uh umm uh uhhh umm um um uhh um um um ummmmmm uh uh uh ummmmmm ummmmm

>>16426741
>https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/nyregion/sexual-harassment-nyu-female-professor.html
YAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSS

>>16426746
hard to compare the worlds most successful pseud to a berkeley feminism studies teacher tho

Can someone summarise her actual position? None of that wikipedia ism shit. What does this woman believe that makes her stand out?

>>16426689
>Then again, who the fuck cares about feminism and gender

People who are trying to use it as a tool to aggrandize themselves and manipulate others.

>berkeley feminism
If Zizek's a psued then he's equal in value with a Berkeley professor desu

>>16426620
kek

>>16426576
>Zizek seems to think she's worth reading.
Zizek isn't worth reading lol

>>16426689
Evidently a vocal chunk of this board has a pretty strong position on the issue even if it is the opposite of what they teach in a gender studies classroom

>>16427448
It's like a superpower. Whenever I hear about someone trying to supplant Western society and its values, there's this one personal trait about that person that I'm almost always able to guess beforehand. It's uncanny.

>>16426576
Giving an Account of Oneself is worth reading. When I read it I couldn't believe it was written by someone whom everyone seems to hate.

>>16427872
what makes it good?

>insane, solipsistic cunt with an axe to grind
>check "early life"
>suspicions confirmed

>>16427826
anti-zionism?

>>16427872
my experience with these radical leftie types has been that they have some pretty interesting ideas about culture and identity and... well a lot of human life, really. for me it becomes a problem when they use their theories for things I don't believe in, but the theories are still pretty rad.

men and women are mostly a biology thing tho, where I believe JB is hard on the nurture side.

>>16426675
>all interested in gender and feminism
If you want to read made up nonsense at least have fun while you’re at it and read sci fi novels

>>16427923
I think it's like, they'd say that to the extent that gender comes from sex it can't be altered, and the goal is altering gender-identities. to the extent that anything can be done it is through nurture.
this warps into "the only worthwhile approach to gender is a nurture-approach"
this warps into "a nurture-approach to gender is worthwhile"
this warps into "gender is 100% a social construct"
and now we are at insanity. something like this.
t. pretty damn uneducated, but it's a theory.

>>16427923
>interesting ideas about culture and identity
>the theories are still pretty rad

"Rad" and "interesting" should be far fucking down your list of criteria when it comes to humoring sociological hypotheses.

>>16427974
it strikes me I don't think I've ever really encountered any sociological theory that wasn't from the last 50 years and woke.

>>16427969
There isn't a goal beyond describing the phenomenon.

>>16427995
An alien visiting Earth is more likely to get an accurate picture of reality from a bitter /r9k/ diatribe than a social sciences journal.

>>16427997
>There isn't a goal beyond describing the phenomenon.
No one is falling for this lie anymore, so just stop.

>>16428028
what's it like being dumber than a retard?

>>16426620
Based "was born to a Jewish family" investigator

>>16426620
Audibly lol'd

>>16427997
nah man it's about creating a potent narrative, it's about change. they're post-truthers. if they really gave a shit they'd be biologists.

>>16426576
Zizek is just terrified of being #metoo'd

>>16426620
spbp

>>16427902
>subversive marxists taking over every part of your country's media and education system and brainwashing the population into believing more and more ridiculous, harmful things while pulling the overton window further and further left?
>...
>GOOD

this board just has an antifeminist lean because of the history of this website, so it has an irrational aversion to feminist and gender theory. people here will call it bullshit and then push evola. gender trouble is worth reading, it doesnt try to sell you anything, and if youre honest with yourself, youll be able to admit that gender is a little more complex than JUST LOOK IN YOUR PANTS LOLOL

cheers

>>16428139
>irrational aversion to feminist and gender theory

>irrational

I see OP has successfully baited a lot of people.

>>16426746
What is he rambling about?

>>16428113
Kek

>>16427902
Is it just me, or do they frequently seem super neurotic? I don't get it.

>>16428139
/thread

>>16427995
Sad! You're missing out of the foundational Durkheim and Mauss!

>>16426576
Already refuted by Thomas (pbuh) Sowell

>>16426576
Zizek is an idiot.

>>16428233
>Durkheim
>50 years ago

>>16428139
it's when it gets to the progressive agenda that it gets fucked for me. they perceive some problem, and their solution is changing what it means to be human. I believe it is misguided and harmful, but also it really vindicates the whole "cultural marxism"-scare.

>>16428374
well, i agree with this. i just think that its possible to acknowledge a theory to be correct without approving of how people put it in practice. in fact, if anyone here has read gender trouble, they would know that the current in vogue way of thinking about trans people, i.e., as people born in the wrong body, is completely off the mark. idiots dont have to disqualify ideas. its a complex world
>>16428154
well, when the response to it is usually some /pol/ bullshit with a vague invocation of r*ddit and a reference to s*y, yeah, it comes off as irrational

>>16426689
>who cares about the thing that is currently reshaping society and causing people to be fired and sued and falsely charged

>>16428139
Gender theory is bullshit thought. The study of gender roles and gender dynamics is very complex and interesting but gender theory is so much more baggage and stupid shit and most of all it's practically incoherent. Maybe the base precept that the two sexes have different, unique experiences can be accepted but accepting trannies confuses even that.
>>16428446
Except Butler absolutely accepts that line of thought and she has written a lot more since then.

>>16426576
>Zizek seems to think she's worth reading.
>Listening to someone who's not worth reading about who's worth reading.

She's smart as hell. Anyone read the NS interview, constantly btfo this journo scumming for a "Judith Butler thinks JK Rowling is a bitch" headline

>>16426576
>she
think again.

>>16428722
Did so early this morning. Absolute gold, highly recommended reading.

>>16426620
I am oblivious. Do tell, anon. I beggeth you, share your knowledge.

>>16428690
"gender theory" is just the study of gender. while i can agree that a lot of it garbage, you have to be more specific. and no, butler does not accept that line of thought. isnt the primary argument of the book that the coherence of sex, gender, and sexuality a cultural construct? this is absolutely opposed to the idea of people in "wrong bodies"

>>16426620
Kek

>>16428139
>this board just has an antifeminist lean because of the history of this website
True, but Butler is still an egregious pseud. Also, you forgot to mention that this board is obsessed with pseuds -- otherwise Butler's name wouldn't even come up. So you should be thankful.

>>16428837
All there really is is sex: XY, XX, and other (genetic mutant).

"Social roles" are for retards. Dress however you want and call yourself whatever you want, just don't be surprised when mouthbreathing villagers burn you alive for being a freakshow. Plebs are gonna pleb, never forget that.

>>16428973
>its all just science bro
>culture? society? what that man i cant measure it with a ruler man hahaha
p-zombie detected

>>16429024
>>>/x/

>>16428139
> this is what /pol/ era tourists tell themselves
I really want sudden gore shit gay nigger wipes to return and solve the cancer problem, if only for a while.

>>16429052
>philosophy belongs on /x/
why are you on this board again?
>>16429241
>diversity of opinion is bad for the board
no argument, cope

>>16429249
>philosophy means displaying full-on schizophrenia
No.

Reminder - works written by the following pseuds are worthless inanity, not philosophy: Hegel, Freud, Bergson, Heidegger, Gadamer, Lacan, Adorno, Sartre, Levinas, Merleau-Ponty, Butler, Beauvoir, Ricoeur, Lyotard, Deleuze, Foucault, Derrida, Irigaray, Badiou, Nancy, Rancière, Kristeva, Agamben, Latour, Zizek.

>>16429289
>wow, maybe culture and society is more than just our biology, but is a sphere unto itself that we can talk about
im such a schizo, youre right, i should see a doctor
cope harder faggot

>>16429332
Social forces are very real, retard. That's why the angry crowd wants to lynch you for being a weirdo. That doesn't mean your delusional "self-identity" corresponds to an objective reality. It's merely a figment of your imagination.

>>16428139
Evola has just as much legitimacy as gender theory. It's fine to push one form of mysticism in response to another.

>>16429415
>objective reality

>>16429482
Take your meds, dilate, and go back to >>>/x/.

>>16429415
> That doesn't mean your delusional "self-identity" corresponds to an objective reality.
The “objective reality” is what your imagination tells you about yourself and the world around you.

I can't believe Butler has filtered so many dumb people just by performing an ages-old philosophical analysis on something common.

>>16429531
>The “objective reality” is what your imagination tells you about yourself and the world around you.
In your dreams, tranny.

>>16429531
>I can't believe Butler has filtered so many dumb people
She kept failing out of Logic class and only got her doctorate through begging and pleading. She is a total non-entity in Philosophy.

>>16428139
I personally have an anti-feminist lean because it catalysed the war on the Middle-East. The movement sought out to do good, but backfires at almost every important instances in history.
Gender is complex, and your upbringing and parents have a lot to do with it, but that doesn't mean that when sexuality and gender doesn't align, it wouldn't cause some great discomfort and mental hurdle in the individual.
The best society is where every individual can be perfectly fine in their own body, and this doesn't mean dismantling your body or your notions because your body is the most concrete thing you have in relation to your consciousness.
The best approach is to develop the mentality such that it aligns with your body, to allow for minimal change.
Same with obesity.

Any and all gender "identity" is going to either be in conformity with or somehow related to social conceptions of that gender (as a self-conscious negation or personal appropriation.) This is a perfectly logical understanding of how society necessarily constructs gender that is by no means positing that it is made up ex nihilo or imposed by a dictator. Gender is an expression between sex (organs and what is done with them) and sexuality (the public discussion and concepts about sex) that is interesting in the fact that it is almost a way to refer to these things so as to keep them somewhat obscure. Gender abstracts away from sex and sexuality to ground both of those things in polite society. You get boys and girls being about blue and pink, short hair and long hair, and so on so you don't have to talk about children as if they are going to have sex, even though they came from sexuality and will grow up into it.
Empirically, if I am right, we should see more rampant instances of adult sex with children in societies that do not really develop a strong concept of gender that abstracts from sex in the way discussed above. Gender is useful as a way of grounding norms then that society would otherwise have difficulty articulating in any coherent way. Gender, though, like any norm (including norms against behaviors or acts it is difficult for people to find some naturalistically grounded injunction against like actual killing) will necessarily have its discontents, punks, and rebels. People will fail to realize themselves in the categories for a variety of reasons. Don't know what could be done about that.

>gender doesn't real but let me tell you how skin color determines every facet of your behavior and mental capacity...

>>16429298
You can add Baudrillard and Althusser to that list.

>>16426576
If you were born with a penis you are a man. If you were born with a vagina you are a woman. Anything, and I mean literally anything, beyond that is mental illness.

What books in her oeuvre are written in English?

>>16430174
Good, now define “penis” and “vagina”. Is long clitoris an underdeveloped penis? Does vagina matter if there is no uterus? What about scrotum that is more like vulva, with one gonad inside it, and the other inside the body? By the way, how do you know whether gonad is more male or more female, and how it will work years later, without some complex study? Have you actually seen babies' parts to be that sure you can easily notice all the unexpected details?

>>16430510
>extending medical anomalies to the whole
brainlet

It's funny because despite her intellectual legacy being taken up by tranny clowns she's just a typical Kamala Harris liberal.

Also I like that she smiles in every photo of her. how can you trust a philosopher that doesn't smile, it means they're constantly suicidal and want to impress their suicidal beliefs onto you

>>16430523
Yeah, the whole thing is dependent upon the notion of universal human validity.

>>16430523
Good, now define “anomalies”. Is tiny dick an anomaly? How do you know it will be tiny when the boy grows up? You might say that one still can have babies artificially, well, then does lack of sperm makes a man not a man, but anomaly? Et cetera, et cetera.

>>16426790
Gender is all performance influenced by society. Not even genitals influence your gender.

The only way to get rid of oppression in society is eliminating gender, which means getting rid of the categories of male and female.

>>16430669
what is your stance on sex-based oppression? are you a gender abolitionist in the radical feminist sense or are you some sort of postmodern feminist?

>>16430669
nvm i just read that you are summarizing. i thought that you were arguing her position, sorry

>>16426576
The fact that Zizek recommends her makes me infinitely less likely to read.

>>16426576
I remember having to have a series of “”””””discussions”””””” about Judith Butler in an undergrad college writing class with no philosophy pre-reqs. (All students are forced to take this class by gen-Ed requirements, and the teachers have a lot of lee way on what to assign). The entire experience was so traumatizing that I became based

>>16428236
I hope I'm not the only one who appreciates the irony of this quote. Sowell never fails to underwhelm me.

>>16426689
anon, you specifically shitpost about these very topics more than any other

>>16430510
I've heard that historically there was a practice of going by how someone urinated

>>16431395
I believe it's more or less mandatory to have JB be mentioned at undergrad level in my country. we went over her recently but she got like 4 minutes, it wasn't too bad and more or less motivated in the context.

>>16430669>>16426790

>>The only way to get rid of oppression in society
btw a society is built on oppression, generally oppression on men who live to cater to women and the ruling class, you cant have society with no oppression

>>16429298
>The only real philosophers are Frege, Russell, Carnap, Quine, Dennett, Lewis, Davidson, Chalmers, Rawls, Nussbaum, Harris.

>>16431750
Only psueds believe in the analytic/continental divide. Davidson is just the analytic spelling of Derrida.

>>16431750
>Harris
This is how we know you're a pseud. Go back to /tv/ and your youtube videos.

>>16428156
>I’m above it all

We’re very grateful to have your presence.

>>16431750

>>16431734
it is remarkable though that the societies that brought about feminism were all christian. Islam has always been more equitable to women. Sure now it is my impression that many islamic women are also affected by the allure of what has become a powerful movement, but for instance domestic violence has always been a political matter in Islam, and women, married or otherwise, have always had a right to their own property, and Islam has always had the example that an ideal woman can be a businesswoman in the prophets first wife (pbuh). All of these are core matters for first and second wave feminism, and desu as far as I understand from an islamic point of view, we would agree that the women lived under opression. God knows best and these are subtle matters, but I think it's good to understand that even from an orthodox religious position you can consired the state of women in the historic west as problematic.

>>16429482
>noumenal reality

>>16431856
did this come before or after the meme?

>>16428139
Read theory chud

>>16427923
>Modern leftish philosophers tend to dismiss reason, science, objective reality and to insist that everything is culturally relative. It is true that one can ask serious questions about the foundations of scientific knowledge and about how, if at all, the concept of objective reality can be defined. But it is obvious that modern leftish philosophers are not simply cool-headed logicians systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply involved emotionally in their attack on truth and reality. They attack these concepts because of their own psychological needs. For one thing, their attack is an outlet for hostility, and, to the extent that it is successful, it satisfies the drive for power. More importantly, the leftist hates science and rationality because they classify certain beliefs as true (i.e., successful, superior) and other beliefs as false (i.e., failed, inferior). The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests. Leftists are antagonistic to genetic explanations of human abilities or behavior because such explanations tend to make some persons appear superior or inferior to others. Leftists prefer to give society the credit or blame for an individual's ability or lack of it. Thus if a person is "inferior" it is not his fault, but society's, because he has not been brought up properly.

>>16426576
This bitch is literally a pedophile and pedo supporter, look it up.

>>16426620
Kek

>>16426576
>she
>worth reading

>>16427995
Read Girard

>>16426620
Continue