/lit/ - Literature

>>16368393
Yeah, I feel you, man. God is not a problem to me, but the guy is. I don't know how you'll solve this (maybe become jewish?) because I haven't either. Any books dealing with this problem are appreciated.

>>16368393
Probably read Spinoza and Plotinus

>>16368624
You mean as an alternative to Orthodox Christianity? I don't see how they would solve the problem I gave in the OP

>>16368393
Sounds like you're more interested in the ethics of Christianity, which is something they copypasted from Greek philosophy.

I'd recommend you to retvrn to tradition and become Hellenized instead. Worship the gods and grow in virtue like your ancestors. Reject Christianity like your based father.

Jesus is a semi- mythical figure who may or may not have actually lived. I'm really getting into king Arthur, but I realize he probably didn't have a magic sword, if he really lived at all.

>>16368393
I agree with this anon >>16368632, it doesn't sound like what attracts you is christianity.

>>16368646
>may not have actually lived
no expert can say this with seriousness

>>16368632
My dad literally ran a neopagan website in the early to mid 2000s and spent hours shitting on Christianity and getting into cross-website arguments with seething Greek Christians.
The funny thing is that I've read much, much more Ancient Greek philosophy and mythology than him.
My main issue with neopaganism is that it's an oxymoron. Paganism is literally tradition for the sake of tradition, and once it dies, any "revival" is just larping.
I also think that polytheism is just silly, and the gods are basically just characters, and don't actually describe anything of any actual metaphysical truth.
Not to mention the fagggotry and pederasty.

>>16368393
I had similar issues, and what helped me a bit were Lee Strobel’s series “The Case for...”, specially “The Case for Christ”. Despite the fact that the guy’s a protestant and the arguments can be underwhelming at times, it’s a good way to start overcoming the obstacles you mentioned.

>>16368666
Okay Satan, whatever you say.

>>16368668
G.K. Chesterton has a nice quote about it:
>Neo-Pagans have sometimes forgotten, when they set out to do everything that the old pagans did, that the final thing the old pagans did was to get christened.

>>16368698
lmao, my dad would fucking SEETHE if I read him that quote.

>>16368393
I view miracles as allegories mostly, In Matthew he says that the eyes are the lamp of the body, the sense with which we accomplish the most and that if you have evil eyes you will have darkness i.e. be blind, so when Jesus heals the blind he heals them by showing them the way and the truth that he is, because they believed in him and they can "see" again.
Same as with limbs, when he heals the cripples arm in the synagogue, he healed his spirit his morality so he no longer sinned with that arm. I am sure that there are examples which cannot be explained this way, I don't remember them all, I'm currently only on my second reading of the new testament.

>>16368712
Wouldn't such an interpretation make you an heretic?

>>16368712
Forgot to add that the physical resurrection is still a problem for me same as you.

my dad reads books of Liakopoulos

>>16368722
Why?
Do you interpret the bible literally? Physically?

>>16368722
Don't know and don't care really, I have many heretical beliefs (mostly from Advaita), I believe in reincarnation, karma, that the Soul and God are one and many others which the church views as heresies. I try to find parallels between traditions and thinkers. For example in Luke it is written that the Kingdom of God is within you I view that as a conformation that the Soul is God (Atman is Brahman) and this can be found in Neoplatonists and elsewhere. So I would say worry less about official church stances no matter your denomination, religion, whatever but instead search for truth based on how your heart feels. The truth is the truth and cannot be anything else, cultural shades may appear yo skew it but behind those everywhere it is the same thing.

>>16368698
Conversion wasn't always a choice for them.

>>16368774
We thank The Order of Brothers of the German House of Saint Mary in Jerusalem for this.

>>16368393

Christianity is the spiritual tradition that I find resonates with me the most. Strictly speaking though I believe in Traditionalism, so I follow esoteric Christianity (I also don't have problem with LGBT Christians, and I think a lot problems in the Western/European LGBT community are due to them being rejected by the Christian community, and so they went into the nightlife sub-culture, and the adopted the values of hedonism, and rejected the Conservative values of Christianity e.g. Sexual prudence).

Because I'm a traditionalist, I don't think it's important if someone believes that Jesus is synonymous with God or not, or whether the resurrection or not happened.

I'm currently reading about the possibility the Jesus survived the Cross, and was revived by Mary Magdelene, hence the 'Resurrection'.

What I think is most important is the pursuit of Theosis. I think the Orthodox faith has articulated the purpose of life better than any sect or religion.

>>16368393
Turns out there's no hidden access, just blind faith. You have to delude yourself into a larp - a larp so lengthy that quitting it would be a personal embarrassment. Study ethical theory and hope for the best.

>>16368393
I was just thinking of this, I've been a Christian for 3 years, (and confirmed now for 6 months). So I had a theory about the incarnation of Christ.

It is evident that most of the time, God is part of a radically different epistemology than earthly things. We come into the world as a blank slate, but the Jews believed that God spoke from within a person, especially a prophet. This inner voice is called conscience often. Clearly the statement "conscience is God" isn't enough to make it a legitimate belief in God, it's just a relabeling of things we already know.

What is needed is "first contact" between God and mankind. Now this is the purpose of the incarnation. But any alien intelligence, no matter its origins -- God of course is an alien intelligence that pre-dates the universe -- would want to control this first contact so as to put across the right impression, and would leave varying kinds and amounts of evidence depending on its motive for doing so.

The Bible is a history of this first contact, and much of what is left unsaid or unproven is, I must believe, entirely intentional on God's part.

>>16368810
>I'm currently reading about the possibility the Jesus survived the Cross, and was revived by Mary Magdelene, hence the 'Resurrection'.
Romans made sure to verify the death of those they cruxified.

>>16368765
>>16368770
I respect your stances and find them to be sensible. I'm an atheist, I was raised Catholic and first began questioning it when I silenced and patronized for trying to bring up stuff like this during cathechism.
However can you call yourself a Christian if you don't buy the whole package? Or rather is there any point in it? I've seen it all my life in my community that many have their own take but these same people would go to mass like I did and get implicitly get shat on every time.

>>16368393
If you have faith then it doesn't matter how probable the miracles or resurrection are. If you could prove mathematically that the probability of them happening is 1 in TREE(3) tetrated TREE(3) times, a person with faith would still believe it. The miracles and resurrection should only worry you if you treat religion like an empirical science.

>>16368770
>So I would say worry less about official church stances no matter your denomination, religion, whatever but instead search for truth based on how your heart feels.
I don't think God would've wanted people to discover so many different and contradictory knowledge about him and never allowing people to be sure that they are truly following him.
That's when Jesus come in, clamming that he's literally God himself.

>>16368393
Read McDowell, More than a Carpenter

It lays out the manuscript and historical evidence that tends to support belief in the Resurrection. A surprisingly strong case can be made on this front. The book is a short, easy read. It's a very popular book, "millions of copies sold," and readily accessible.

>becoming a christfag to own your dad because he's a greek neopagan, but still being an atheist
This is just a hairier version of those 2016 era comics where the guy starts a business and gets married because FUCK YOU MOM AND DAD I'M A REBEL, and his obese pink haired tranny neo-post-structural-inter-lefty-marxist parents cry and wonder where they went so wrong

>>16368646
refuted in totality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQKxoBpV2NE&t=1455s

>>16368393
Jesus was the only good man to have lived.

I found kieekegaard helpful, he saw that because jesus is the infinite, eternal, omnipresent God in a finite temporal single human body, he is a paradox, and cannot be grasped through reason, to Greeks he is folly Paul would say, if you witnessed him physically ascending to heathen it would not prove logically he was God. I believe the conviction comes from not being able to deny him, if he did not rise he is dead and rotten, and those words cannot be reconciled with his claim to be "the life", you can pursue the historical apologetics and take what it says, if one ounce of what is said in the gospels is true the repercussions will be all consuming, the only possible thing to do would be to commit yourself to Him entirely, ask yourself first if this matters to you, then ask why you might say yes, then no, and think hard about why you might say no, and then think hard about what will have to change in your self if you say yes, and if you are willing to keep searching, if it is hard to bear christ "said Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your soul. And I have no doubt it will change your life, and all of the people in your life including your father for the better

>>16368945
The videos where he tours other churches are very good.

>>16368989
His Pontius Pilate video was good as well.

>>16368978
>I found kieekegaard helpful, he saw that because jesus is the infinite, eternal, omnipresent God in a finite temporal single human body, he is a paradox, and cannot be grasped through reason,
i love how intellectuals clinging to mental ramblings end up saying that their intellectuals ramblings can't talk about god (as if it is a big statement, when all it is remains a rejection of the first judeo christian intellectual assholes who hyped Aristotle) while 100% relying on their useless intellect

>>16368631
More specifically Spinoza's view on the resurrection of Christ

>>16369018
Based Stirnerposter

Don't forget that there were real miracles in the last centuries that were approved by the church. Look them up and if you aren't a hypocritical pretentious ''skeptic'' you'll see how they truly happened.

>>16369073
Yes, look that up so you realize how little proof is there.

>>16368945
>people 100 years after his death talk about him
That's not a refutation, nor does it actually address the person you're responding to's point, wherein he fully accepts the idea of an apocalyptic rabbi preaching a doctrine of asceticism in response to impending eschatological events whose life got taken completely out of proportion. Did you even read what he said, or did you just really want to share a video you recently watched?

Smarter men than you have been discussing this for longer than you've been alive. Pride is a sin, anon.

>>16369018
This is why Aquinas took everything he ever said back after having an actual mystical experience. You should look into St. John of the Cross. There's a good book comparing him to Nagarjuna up on Libgen, "The Cloud of Nothingness".

>>16369073
based fatima poster

>>16369073
You really don't want to bring up the "miracles" the church confirmed if you want to sell it

>>16369088
>That's not a refutation, nor does it actually address the person you're responding to's point.
I took his point to be that Jesus was a mythical figure that didn't exist. But he is in no way comparable to King Arthur or any other figures of legend. Jesus was not a legend and his teachings and miracles were known not centuries after, but shortly after his death and Resurrection.

>>16369079
there's more proof that the events in fatima happened than for many historical events.

>>16369018
I never said I believe we cannot talk about God anon, neither did kieekegaard, he believed God to be the absolute being, neither did the church fathers if they're who your talking about, what are you talking about?

>>16369128
I wasn't a believer in those miracles until I actually researched fatima. I'd still be a christian even without them but they certainly strengthen my faith.

Come to the future my child.

>>16368393
Yeah I can relate to. Beliefs are not about reality, truth, philosophy, semantics or whatever. If you don't believe in JC then there's probably nothing you can do about it and if you just play along and you are not genuine about it at the end you are going to be miserable. Read about Judeo-Christianity from an historical perspective, their morality and ethics are rooted in a mish mash of semitic and middle eastern belief systems from 2000 years ago, I'm not quite sure why you want to live like that. And the Lord saves you from apologetics, it's a good way to waste your time because at the end and many faith crisis you are goign to say " I guess I just don't believe in yezus LOL"

>>16369135
>>16369162
Don't pretend you don't need to have faith to believe in such thing. If that wasn't the case it wouldn't be part of a religion.

>>16369129
He pretty clearly says
>a semi- mythical figure who may or may not have actually lived
So, yes, he's totally consenting to exactly what I said: Jesus could have been a real person, but the legends based around him about a century after his death are totally divorced from him as an actual person. This is a position held by many historians, and it is not an unreasonable one.

>>16369088
This is why Aquinas took everything he ever said back after having an actual mystical experience.

> “I can do no more. The end of my labors has come. Such things have been revealed to me that all that I have written seems to me as so much straw. Now I await the end of my life after that of my works.”

Explain where he says he took everything back.

>>16369185
>Don't pretend you don't need to have faith to believe in such thing.
Sure. I wasn't in fatima in 1917 so I have faith that there were miraculous events there and then.
>f that wasn't the case it wouldn't be part of a religion.
Just like people were convinced that jesus was the son of god because of his miracles and ressurrection, skeptics in the crowd in fatima converted based what they saw.

>>16369212
>all that I have written seems to me as so much straw.
perhaps there?

>>16368393
There is a reasoning part and a faith part of Christianity. You can make a real solid case for God by just philosophizing and looking at the latest science (fine-tuning). The whole Jesus part (although he really lived) is a part of faith.

I personally think there can be a solid case made for the resurrection. Everyone that followed him claimed this happened. But they didn't have to. They could have sold access to the grave as a shrine. They all died horribly and in poverty. The standard cult things (leading people away to a community, get their money, have sex with the women) didn't happen. In fact they build churches right in the middle of the heat. So why lie about the resurrection?

>>16369212
In that very quote. His life's work, an intellectual defense of Christianity against attacks by philosophy, is pointless on two fronts. Truth can never be an intellectual endeavor, it must be mystical, surpassing analysis entirely. It must be directly experienced. The idea of "finding the truth" via "reason", then, is just flat out pointless. From an evangelical position, it's a pointless endeavor as at the end of the day, the best way to convince the philosopher of the truth of Christianity is to just show it to him. In another sense, intellectual defenses of Christianity for the believer's sake are pointless for the same reason Thomas Merton realized. You can quite easily make intellectual attacks on Christianity, and any religion or belief. Direct experience can never be attacked, however, and a believer that has that lived, direct experience can never have their faith shaken.

He literally says that his work is dead, and pointless, in the face of lived mystical experience, anon.

>>16369233
His works and labour's as a theologian were to bring understanding and reason to faith, his mystic vision left him utterally convinced that human reason fell short of grasping the Mystery of divinity, its providence and mercy, and that was what he was trying trying to explain in the summa, do you honestly believe he apostised?

>>16369234
>(fine-tuning)
Yeah I bet God is like some autistic kid playing minecraft creating the desolated humongous space without oxigen and putting millions of planets, black holes, suns, cosmic rays and what not just to put us in this minuscule shitty ball we are rapidly destroying, simply EPIC

>>16369320
What's the official position of the church regarding aliens?

>>16368393
yes, read plotinus and forget christianity

>>16369282
>>16369233
Reason provides the foundation for faith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUOabCTF2kk&t=455s

>>16369282
>Truth can never be an intellectual endeavor, it must be mystical, surpassing analysis entirely.
You're confused. Just because direct mystical experience is more powerful than rational thought it doesn't mean that you can't never know truth without those experiences.
You can know that God is real by recognizing his necessity in this reality but seeing would put the nail in the coffin. Going from intellectual knowledge to direct experience it's more of a matter of increased emotional connection than certainty.

>>16369320
>God wouldn't be dedicated enough to create lore, if God were real he'd only create me and my village and preen over every element because I project a human attention span and sense of dedication onto the creator, maintainer, and destroyer of all existence
Bruh

>>16368936
I kek'd, but that's not what it is, I considered whether that was the case and it's not

>>16369397
lmao, ignore the filename

>>16369373
Aquinas would beg to differ.

>>16369018
>stirnerfag seething at fairly basic philosophical concepts because his tism renders him incapable of understanding them

>>16369409
He's right on the money as much as you like to pretend otherwise.

>>16368668
>tfw no based Greek pagan father

for fucks sake. TRAGIC SENSE OF LIFE. UNAMUNO. it is the perfect book for someone like you and nobody suggested it

>>16369499
The mindset of the stirnerfag is the result of insufficient childhood bullying, and of insufficient policing in adulthood. There is a cadence in a man's voice, even his writing voice, that makes it apparent he has never been struck in anger by another, and every stirnerfag without fail possesses that cadence.
Come here, nerd, so I might beat you.

>>16369499
right? i thought truth was a spook

>>16369513
thanks

>>16369364
>his teacher was a son of christians who tried to reconcile paganism and christianity, he attacked some gnostics, main influence on one of the main christian theologians
yeah read plotinus op, i am only afraid you will not be able to forget christianity afterwards

>>16369282
My goodness
>Truth can never be an intellectual endeavor, it must be mystical, surpassing analysis entirely
Aquinas would say truth is what is, a statement is true if the object of the statement, and the minds judgement of the object both are recognised to be the same, truth is a "mode of being" a transcendental reference point of the mind as goodness, beauty and multiplicity can be perceived from the senses of one object through perception of the mind. Truth is an intellectual endeavor, a biological and spiritual, therefore human endeavour, it must be experienced, therefore it must undergo analysis, the christian mystics knew this well, when they felt an overwhelming love of the poor that urged them to serve them, they saw they actions were moral and therefore human, they saw that they acted in accordance with God's will and providence and rationally so.

>The idea of "finding the truth" via "reason
then, is just flat out pointless. From an evangelical position, it's a pointless endeavor as at the end of the day, the best way to convince the philosopher of the truth of Christianity is to just show it to him.

Is it,? Isn't it from what we perceive to be true that we grasp what is rational? Isn't my existence a sturdy ground to stand on when saying " I exist, I know that I exist, and I act in accordance with the good of my existence? Can it not be shown? When origen met philosophers who pursued truth he said" come and live among us, and see how we live" believing the church community to be an act of gods love, through which he acts out his plan of salvation, he believed they would experiance, and understand God's love, in the loving community of the saints, was he wrong? Many people thought not and became Christian through him.

> another sense, intellectual defenses of Christianity for the believer's sake are pointless for the same reason Thomas Merton realized. You can quite easily make intellectual attacks on Christianity, and any religion or belief. Direct experience can never be attacked, however, and a believer that has that lived, direct experience can never have their faith shaken.

Direct experiance is perception, one's judgement on that perception is doubt able, aquinas believed the christian "faith was a theological virue, as justice is a tenancy to be fair faith is an inclination to profess dogmatic truths, the creed ect, these two are unlike of course, one depends on confidence of human nature the other the truth of the gospels, aquinas believed the christian has sensual experiance of God, but they do have a spiritual one, the virtue charity, which is love, the holy spirit is the love of God for himself proceeding from his self perception, and the human joins God in this love, and changes his will in accordance, and this is brought into experiance, therefore a rational defence of this experience is natural, it might be loosely understood, loose is not a word to attribute to aquinas lightly.

>>16369537
The absolute state of Christians.

>>16368632
> the ethics of Christianity, which is something they copypasted from Greek philosophy.
source

>>16369294
the summa is not a late work, they even predate his realization that the Liber de Causis (a major influence) wasn't an Aristotelian text.

>>16369549
No sensual experiance

>>16369618
It was a lifelong and unfinished work no?

What the got to do with it?

>>16369537
>his teacher was a son of christians
>believing a midwit confusion with another Ammonius by Arian Christians
it's like the opposite extreme of the error of creating two distinct Origens that were one, the christian Ammonius is fabrication to defend the adoption of neoplatonic theology into Christianity

>>16369626
>stops writing the summa as he realizes most of his most beloved influences came from Neoplatonism and not Aristotle
he probably also realized the the Corpus Areopagitum were pseudepigrapha, but kept that information to himself, and instead went into intellectual despair ceased all philosophy and probably died from depression three years later

>>16369661
Why would any of that matter to him?

I'm a Greek orthodox greekoid diasporanon too op.

I'm not going to church or anything since my dad acts like a heathen, and my mum's side is protestant (which I don't begrudge). I got to caring about Jesus because of the broader, more theological conception of godliness. I think Jesus was good, and goodness is godly. But he was perfectly good, a paragon of what human divinity is like. I don't know if there's a literal hell or heaven, those things I think are possibly metaphorical. But I do think that Christianity gives a person a good measure of doing well and acting rightly. That's not all religion can do, but it does that better than paganism does. What paganism does is it allows for mere ritual. In an atomized society we can read whatever into these rituals. The ancients sure did. Like you said however, the tradition is dead, so we don't have any chance of even interpreting the rituals similarly any longer. It's really a woeful situation. Add to that the fact that it doesn't really give you the measure of welfare and morality I mentioned Christianity does. No wonder the Christians stamped out paganism: it can be used to justify anything (many ancient Greeks did use it to do so).

Anyway I hope my blathering was somewhat helpful. Your father sounds cringe though, I am sorry.

>>16369637
Porphyry himself tell us Ammonius Saccas' parents were christians you absolute imbecile. Explain me this: christians affirm Ammonius Saccas and the other Ammonius were one and the same person and that therefore the christian Ammonius was Ammonius Saccas (which also contribute with factual evidences of his parents being christians and his attempt to reconcile paganism and christianity). ''History'' and pagans say there was another Ammonius who was christian and not Ammonius Saccas.

Start at about 30:00 to get context

https://youtu.be/uv6KLbkvua8?t=2211

>>16368393
why don't you go to psychiatrist?

>>16369840
I love you jesus

>>16368698
Simply some type of syllogistic fallacy or the sort with the key thing being that it was the 'last' thing they ever did, since it is normally more ideal to be able to postpone such a thing.

>>16369751
Yeah, I pretty much agree with what you wrote. I wouldn't say my dad is cringe, I get where he's coming from, but he won't even listen to differing positions.
>>16369840
what would you say if I told you that my dad is literally a psychiatrist?

>>16369549
Didn't read. I'm going to trust Aquinas's opinions on Aquinas. Go read a book, fag.

>>16369549

not literature, kill yourself

>>16368712
I also see the mirqcles in that way, but God being God, they might as well have happened all the same. There are some prophecies in the OT that were mentioned in passing, such as Abraham telling Isaac that God will provide a lamb, and later finding a ram. So by performing the miracles mentioned in the OT, He proves He's the Messiah., including the resurrection.
When our Lord the rich man to sell his possesions and follow Him, it is not only to him but to everyone who wants to follow Him. Leave everything to God, He will provide.

>>16370040
The bible and theology are literature pussyboy

>>16368668
Do any files or screenshots on the site still exist?

>>16369233
>>all that I have written seems to me as so much straw.
>perhaps there?

No. You take the second half of the remark out of context. This is the context:
>Such things have been revealed to me that all that I have written seems to me as so much straw.

He's setting up a comparison: his work, in comparison to a remarkable divine revelation, seems to him so much straw.

He's not saying that his work, as such, is worthless; rather, in comparison to the revelation of God, it is so much straw.

The same of course would properly be said of any human creation - whether of Shakespeare or Mozart - in comparison with God himself.

>>16368393
Just talk to your priest dude. Christ is not a prophet or a man, but is God the Word made flesh. He is neither more God than man, nor more man than God. When you look at the ressurection, it becomes clear that Christ is not a man granting miracles but God as flesh. Anons like to point out early figures in the bible ressurecting people, claiming that these events demean Christ's own ressurection. However Christ, the Word made flesh, ressurected Himself. This is the all important narrative that God is showing us, that there is life beyond sin. He is a daunting figure for sure, I recommend talking to your priest though and not listening to the yokles on this board who don't have Apostolic succession or the clerical knowledge base. Sometimes it also takes a mystical experience, just going to Church and actively trying not to sin too much might help your spiritual journey as well.

>>16368810
this has to be bait

>>16368774
Many actually converted because of roman catholic mass. mass is a psychological warfare tactic and it was highly effective in the old days

>>16368393
Hello OP. Most things in history are "hear-say" and are based in people gathering in a group and coming to a consensus as to what probably happened. There is about several thousand years of recorded history. How do we know that those things happened? We do so based on faith that that which is recorded was passed down accurately, and filter it based on reason. With each generation that passes, the amount of eye witness testimony to a historical events dwindles until there is no one left to testify, only accounts immortalized in writing or other forms of media remain.

This problem of lack of omniscience plagues modernity as there are so many things that we simply cannot confirm, but rely on word-of-mouth. Even scientific findings and experiments which are perceived as the benchmark of 'truth' and 'objectivity' are done by humans, and once a select group of people record their observations, and their conclusions, a slightly larger group of people come to a consensus as the the veracity of their findings. But there is a wide gap between the 'experts' and the average person, and one cannot expect the average person to confirm high level science as those peer reviewing the science do.This epistemological hump is something that we have to deal with in all aspects of life, even in things that concern the events happening around us today and not just with faith in things 2000 years prior.

I cannot confirm that Christ resurrected or performed literal miracles, but neither can I confirm that we landed on the moon in 1969. Rather I place faith in the institutions, and the consensus of those around me that such things actually happened. At some point we rely on faith for the presuppositions that we hold. At some point most of what we understand to be true boils down to "X says so", and we neither have the ability, motivation, time, or effort to confirm such conclusions. In the case of Christ, I have faith that the accounts faithfully preserved by the Church through the Bible are true, and as an extension of that... that what Christ said of himself was true, namely that he is the son of God. If you find it easier to believe in the real presence, how can you not believe that God actually assumed flesh and walked this earth? The presence of divinity is indeed in the Eucharist, but it was Christ' divinity that established (through the Last Supper) His own presence in that mystery. The Holy Mystery both contains Christ but also points to His presence in history and in the time to come. Forgive me if this isn't coherent and I wish you luck on your journey.

>>16370697
>psychological warfare
Anon I think you mean spiritual warfare

>>16368393
>Has anyone else had similar experiences?

Yes. Raised Catholic, lost faith. Then gradually came to believe in a creator God, not necessarily the God of the Bible. Then found myself persuaded by arguments like this >>16369234 (in my case, as presented by a fellow named Gene Scott, a rather outrageous character whom Werner Herzog made a documentary about), and books similar to this >>16368914 (in my case, the most persuasive such book I read was Michael Green, Was Jesus Who He Said He Was?).

>>16370040
Post shelf, atheist

>>16368393
Just watch lectures by Giannaras and Kallistos Ware on YouTube.

I fully admit to falling for the areligious upbringing of "well isn't it so silly to think a man came back from the dead LOL" most of my life. I really don't think people realise, like I didn't, that when you start engaging with it intellectually honestly that there are no easy refutations to the resurrection story. I'm not sure what I believe nowerdays but I find myself regularly arguing in favour of giving the resurrection a fair hearing among my peers. It's quite interesting to me that once you get beyond the "it didn't happen because i say science wouldn't let it happen" to other arguments your average person can't come up with better than survivorship bias. As if resurrection and seeing resurrected prophets was common back then.

>>16368393
Stay in the Catholic Church.
Either the Ocidental or Oriental

>>16368646
>muh euhemerism

>>16368393
NT Wright - The Resurrection of the Son of God
I have not read it, but it supposedly offers evidence for belief in a literal resurrection

>>16370961
yeah wright is probably the foremost anglophone christian apologist on the resurrection of jesus

You have the ability to become a great Scholarch, OP, for you have been given a gift by birth the means to read all the extant works of the Greeks with ease. Don't squander these smoldering embers of curiosity and this access you've been given by abandoning reason for a blind religious cope.
Start with the Hellenes.

>>16368393
>Thoughts? Has anyone else had similar experiences?
Well yeah like a solid 10% of the white population believes in god areligiously, and everyone with an IQ over 120 knows most of the Bible is horseshit

>>16372500
>Muh intelligence
Worldly people put too much importance on intellect and knowledge. I got a regional high score on the IQ test, but both of us will die, and neither of our minds can understand why. You're wasting your life being a pretentious asshole.

>>16372520
Without it we're animals. Look at Africa, that's humanity without intelligence, doesn't look very holy to me senpai

>>16372537
I said that you invest intelligence with too much importance, not that it were unimportant. But thank you for the strawman that tells me you have no real argument and are just another /pol/tard who could give a shit about blacks.

>>16368393
>>16368580

If you can't believe that he is the Son of God, then know: he was the perfect man. Perfectly actualized in the flesh, and of perfect virtue. Dying in this perfection, he redeemed all of humanity. You will see that in time, the Lord Christ is the only thing left standing in the midst of a pathological age of tyranny the likes of which the world has never, ever suffered. His message will save you, and he lives in the spirit, calling all who will answer with an earnest heart. Read the Beatitudes.

>>16368393
Pray earnestly for a revelation

>>16368393
test

>>16370763
>there are no refutation of a fan fiction made up thousands of years ago so the story is true

okay

>>16370359
pic related

>>16369073
>Hey look directly into the sun.
>Oh my god, the sun is starting to look weird.
>Must be a miracle, can't possibly be an optical illusion stemming from the fact that we're looking directly at an object that damages our eyes.

>>16368393
lack of absolute physical proof that an event happened is not evidence that the event didn't happen

I ate an apple yesterday
do you believe me or not?

>>16373752
I died yesterday and now I'm alive again
do you believe me or not?

>>16373490
Dangerously based

>>16369925
It simply points out that blindly going back to a dead tradition can only lead one way.

>>16368393
>Thoughts? Has anyone else had similar experiences?

Yes, why do you think people like Aquinas are so popular here? The more we learn about textual criticism and about nature the more and more abstract peoples faith has to become and the further down the causal chain God is relegated to - which is something which has been happening for the entire history of Christianity.

>>16373752
Does the entire ethical system of humanity and our understanding of reality hinge on whether or not you ate an apple yesterday?

>>16373766
>>16373807
read the first line of the post; that is the point of the analogy, no more, and no less

>>16368393
Miracles happen every day. If you’re not prepared to admit that something beyond your understanding can touch and change the world I don’t think you’ll be able to see religion as anything other than a special type of ethics, one similar to, but detached from the many political ideologies people fall into.

>>16368668
>Not to mention the fagggotry and pederasty.
Judaized "Greek" rejecting the traditions of his ancestors. A shame to his country.

>>16369522
Stirner would have grown up under a Prussian education system where he would have been beaten a lot by angry teachers and probably by other schoolboys. Also I was bullied beaten plenty as a kid and yet I am Stirnerist ;)

>>16373790
pic related is from the bottom of his page explaining how to make weeping icons

>>16373812
>lack of absolute physical proof that an event happened is not evidence that the event didn't happen

Well firstly that inst true it is evidence but its not a proof or absolute evidence. The comment I made was trying to show that given the magnitude of the consequences we cant limit our analysis of it to evidence of that high a standard.

>>16372984
Highly based friend.

>>16373490
>>16373866
What a boomer lmao, have you tried to talk to him about Christianity?

>>16373883
Yeah, he doesn't listen and refuses to engage intellectually or philosophically. He just starts whining about Christians destroying statues and other irrelevant shit.
I used his own logic and said something like:
>Oh yeah, and who wrote the pagan stuff, pedophile faggots?
and he lost his shit

I don't have a problem with Christ as an incarnated divinity, but what I still can't accept is the existence of hell. Call me a fedora-tipper, I don't care, but infinite and eternal punishment for a finite sin is just abhorrent to me. I know it's more nuanced then this, but still it's something I just can't come to terms with.

Also, I've been reading (listening, mostly) to Slavoj Žižek's stuff on christianity and I really like his take on it. Christ has already risen, done his job and he's not coming back. He is not like some sort of pagan deity who come back every eon to finish what he failed at before. We are free because we are alone - Christ has freed us - god itself is no longer the big other for us.

Žižek on Christianity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkpRqxKbgF8

>>16368668
>Not to mention the fagggotry and pederasty.
You clearly haven't read Plato or any of the Neoplatonists

>>16373866
Reads like something the Amazing Atheist would say kek

>>16373434
your reading comphrension is abysmall for someone posting on a literature board

>>16373926
This is honestly a scenario I have just thought about, but a very depressing one. Instead of Christ coming to save us at the end; which is something Christ himself preached, these materialists and Communists want to deceive themselves into thinking that Christ has liberated us from God, in a type of Gnostic sense. This is an attempt to hallow Christ’s very, character, ignoring the teachings as some type of barbaric teaching, while continuing to parasitically leach to Christ’s character as a justification for your sin.

Zizek was wrong. He wanted to say that Judaism was a Fairytale built on anxiety, with Christianity being the fulfillment of that anxiety, eventually paving the way to get rid of God by saying God became an ‘Atheist’ in His own death.

Yet Zizek wants to ignore the most important part of Christianity besides the Crucifixion and Second Coming—the Resurrection. It is not a type of pragmatic way of getting rid of God, but instead, the return of God after an apparent defeat. It is the rising of the superordinate principle, the justification of morality in a nihilistic world. It is the defeat of egoism and empiricism, and the replacement of materialism with spirituality.

Communism is based on class struggle, and the abolishment of class. What would be the highest class struggle imaginable? Man and God. That is the class struggle that has fueled our imagination ever since we were able to ponder our existence and meaning. And Christ claimed to be the total reunion of the two; God incarnate in the flesh—Jesus Christ.

Yet Communism wants to get rid of this reunion. It wants to get rid of the unitary figure of Christ, the person of Christ, and instead use Him as an excuse for it’s continually consuming struggle. They want to say that since Christ came class should be over, and that we are truly alone: allowing us to continue in our hedonism and sin forever, until we destroy ourselves or create the Marxist utopia they are striving towards.

However, there is a third way out; the one they ignored: the Promised Second Coming, the cornerstone that was rejected by the builders, Christ. The return of the ideal, God—because God didn’t go away after Christ died, but He rose through the Resurrection, with the total and absolute reunification of Man and God, and He is coming again, to save us from ourselves; to save us from the Capitalist and Communist dichotomy. A kingdom beyond man, a heart beyond evil.

Maranatha, come soon, Lord Jesus. Amen.

>>16368393
Read Mark Brahmin. Rid yourself of your sentimental attachment to this subversive religion.

>>16374252
Fuck Mark Brahmin. He’s a serious charlatan.

>>16368666
He may have lived, but was likely not the same jesus as in the bible.

>>16374376
Proof

>>16374241
You'd prob like this book.

>>16368393

>>16374241
good post

>>16368632
>they copypasted from Greek philosophy.
lmao no. Christianity essentially invented our modern view of charity.

>>16368393
>>16368580
Islam is the way to go. You have the same God plus you have Jesus, but as a prophet and not with all the obviously made up stuff.

>>16373926
>but still it's something I just can't come to terms with.

I understand and have experienced this feeling. For me, it comes down to trusting in the goodness of God - that God is, in his nature - he can't help but be - perfectly just and perfectly merciful. And so hell must be accepted on faith.

I agree that Zizek has a very deep and quite sophisticated understanding of Christianity; it's one of things that makes me really respect him as an intellectual and a scholar. But to the extent he parts company with Christian orthodoxy, that decision appears to arise from the logic of other, prior intellectual commitments he has made, which he chooses over Christ. And that, it seems to me, is a mistake.

>>16374241
Very good post anon, thank you for writing it. I just want him to come back soon

>>16368668
>Paganism is literally tradition for the sake of tradition, and once it dies, any "revival" is just larping.

That's the position that Louis Bouyer takes in The Meaning of Sacred Scripture, a great book, but not readily available, at least in the US.

Anybody interested in Orthodoxy should read the life and works of Fr. Seraphim Rose, an American convert that will (God willing) be our first American saint. He was extremely intelligent and studied eastern philosophy in college, even working with Alan Watts and finding the folly with all other religions. I'm phone posting so I can't go into more detail, but listen to some of his talks in YouTube. He will change your life.

Maybe start by skimming through this

http://orthodoxaustralia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/course.pdf

>>16370914
Whatever, it's the only sensible approach. Everything else sounds pretty retarded.

>>16369338
Orthodox Church has no official dogma but I've read contemporary monks claiming UFOs are demonic. You have accounts of abduction in the same sense from antiquity but it was on large ships in the sky, not saucers. Modern saucer sightings only exist because Hollywood pumped them into our head. Demons can only imitate what exists in man's imagination, they cannot create anything themselves. It is seen as a forerunner for Antichrist

>>16375061
I worded this poorly. He worked with Alan Watts when he was in college and into Buddhism, but realized Watts was a charlatan.

>>16368393
Convert to Islam