/lit/ - Literature

>>16361508
in any case it was more a political thing than an actual theological issue

>>16361508
The Bible if you’re a Protestant, Pascal if you’re Catholic

>>16361508
The Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms with Proof Texts and the Catechism of the Catholic Church

>>16361508
Read "Protestantism and Catholicity compared in their Effects on the Civilization of Europe" by Fr. Jaime Balmes. You'll thank me later.

>>16361508
Have you tried looking at Orthodoxy? I personally, as an inquirer of two years now, appreciate the Roman aesthetic but have developed an unparalleled spiritual relationship through Orthodoxy. I was raised Methodist and understood almost no theology, my suggestion is to talk to priests on both sides of the schism and learning the theology for yourself. I respect the minimalism and humility of some protestants, but after having read more into the concept of the Church, Apostolic succession, and the Sacraments, I can't recommend anything protestant in good faith. Read the Bible, go to catechisms, talk to priests, leaving it up to literature is a good way to fall prey to ratioanlist theology or a dampening of the mystical experience. God speed friend, we're all searching together.

>>16361978
Based and breadpilled

>>16361978
>I was raised Methodist and understood almost no theology
That's because Methodists don't catechize their children.

>>16361508
The God Delusion, God's Not Great, The End of Faith, etc.

>>16361508

thank me later.

>>16362054
It's almost as if stemming away from Apostolic succession is the same thing as not being a part of the Church, and results in your clergy being unable to provide sound spiritual advice.

>>16361508
The Genealogy of Moral

>>16362118
based

>>16361508
? Protestantism is not christianism

The Quran

Orthodoxy, Protestantism, Catholicism, how about I'm choosing none of them

>>16362147
I'm not Methodist.

>>16362306
I know, I was agreeing with you

>>16362377
But I'm still a Protestant. In many of the traditional denominations we still catechize our children. You'd be hard pressed to find a Confessional Reformed denomination where a child cannot expound on the finer points of doctrine.

>>16362646
But that doesn't really matter if your priests aren't apart of Apolstolic succession. That's what has lead to the disgraceful state of a worldly "billboard christianity". Regardless of how "on par" the theology is, protestantism will always fall short of doing what the Church does.

>>16361508
>Popery can build new chapels; welcome to do so, to all lengths. Popery cannot come back, any more than Paganism can,—which also still lingers in some countries. But, indeed, it is with these things, as with the ebbing of the sea: you look at the waves oscillating hither, thither on the beach; for minutes you cannot tell how it is going; look in half an hour where it is,—look in half a century where your Popehood is! Alas, would there were no greater danger to our Europe than the poor old Pope's revival! Thor may as soon try to revive.—And withal this oscillation has a meaning. The poor old Popehood will not die away entirely, as Thor has done, for some time yet; nor ought it. We may say, the Old never dies till this happen, Till all the soul of good that was in it have got itself transfused into the practical New. While a good work remains capable of being done by the Romish form; or, what is inclusive of all, while a pious life remains capable of being led by it, just so long, if we consider, will this or the other human soul adopt it, go about as a living witness of it. So long it will obtrude itself on the eye of us who reject it, till we in our practice too have appropriated whatsoever of truth was in it. Then, but also not till then, it will have no charm more for any man. It lasts here for a purpose. Let it last as long as it can.—

Catholicism - European religion based in Greek philosophy

Protestantism - A return to the Jewish roots of Christianity

Simple as.

>>16361508
Just go with whatever you grew up with; if you're not Christian by birth, then choose whatever is most accessible to you (i.e. the closest church). Don't complicate things.

>>16361508
JH Newman

>>16362729
I guess its a good thing we have Christ a great high priest.
Hebrew 14

>>16362766
Brainlet newfag interpretation.

>>16361508
The bible. Is it in English? Thank Protestants. Does it mention the Pope? Didn't think so.

>>16362729
cucklick priests are pharisees

>>16362845
>does it mention the pope

It mentions the first one, Peter, who was told to build a church.

Protestants are not Christian. Simple as.

Craziness, I opened /lit/ to start a thread about pic related. I just finished the introduction and seems interesting although would have liked a wider survey of the reformation. Anyone read it?

Any literature about trying to maintain a non-protestant stance at christianity without actually recognizing the authority of catholic/orthodox churches?

>>16362875
peter built the church, saul founded catholicism

>>16362827
>the nature-man dichotomy
>sadistic misinterpretation of the trinity through Calvin
>the infusion of fuastian and paradise lost narratives, which fanned the flames of occultism, satanism, and theosophy throughout modernity
>disgraceful intertwining of liberalist enlightenment values with Christianity
Notice how the Church did none of these things and how all of our them stem from bullshit intellectuals and authors.

>>16362836
No he's right. It wasn't just holidays they took from roman paganism.

>>16362961
>conflating scholastic interest and theological scholarship with cultural assimilation
Are prots really this retarded?

>>16362971
>scholastic interest and theological scholarship
catholic theology is internally inconsistent and worthless as saul and his pharisees burned gospels that made them seethe

>>16362971
You misunderstand, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. Catholic church actually maintains the essential western primordial religious traditions, for the most part.

>>16362961
>implying it's not more complex than that

>>16362845
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_in_the_Middle_Ages

Remember that there is not a single one mention of Sola Scrpitura in the Bible.

>>16363054
john 1:1, of course catholics dont read the bible lol

>>16363036
>primordial religious tradition
Could it be...

If you can only use the bible to determine what is true, how do you know what books to use in the bible?

>>16363069
I'm too obsessed with Evola to be guenonfag

>>16363094
you have to trust saul and his pharisees to arbitrarily pick out the ones that align with his political narrative

>>16361508
Those things are only interesting in the way that they act as cultural entities. If you weren't raised in the tradition of either, then you're just choosing between wasting your life believing in some bullshit and wasting your life believing in some bullshit with extra bullshit added in

>>16363069
Indeed. Actual beliefs mean nothing, tradition and ritual is everything.

Become Catholic and save the West.

>>16363064
the logos is the Bible loool.

>>16363094
>If you can only use the bible to determine what is true
What? The Bible is not the word of God, Christ is the Word made flesh and the Bible was written by men who chronicled this. So, it is not necessarily about a written truth, but understanding the gifts God gave us (Communion, Baptism, Confession, etc.). He gave these gifts, not to the lay reader, but his Apostles whose lineage gives us the best understanding of His gifts as a human institution can. But the answer you're looking for is the Septuigent and just read the NT in Koine.
>>16363149
Based
>>16363103
Cringe

>>16362766
I noticed this too what is it with american christians worshipping the Jews so much? the Jews themselves aren't as staunch zionists as the americans

Richard Dawkins-The God Delusion

>>16361978
>but after having read more into the concept of the Church, Apostolic succession, and the Sacraments, I can't recommend anything protestant in good faith
Same. When I saw that despite the differences Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Oriental Orthodoxy are so much closer to each other than Protestantism the right path became clearer. The idea that 3 independent apostolic traditions all harkening back to the early church all failed to uphold Christ's message and that the true Christianity sat in waiting for Western Europeans with Western European biases and assumptions to come around and clarify it 1500 years after its birth is untenable. If I were take to take Protestant assumptions seriously I would simply not be a Christian at all, why would I convert to a religion that couldn't even sort itself out for most of its existence? What if the Protestants themselves underwent a major reformation/revolution in say India or something and a new group swept across the globe in 2500 AD saying that they actually had the true gospel and everyone else was wrong? Only an unjust god would allow most of his followers to live in delusion for the majority of time. Even if I assume God preserved the Bible until a certain point why would he wait that long to do his work and get the message out, it took less time for Muhammad's promise that Muslims would one day take Constantinople to come true.

>>16361508
Depends on whether you want to be told what to think and do by some homosexual in a dress, spend every Sunday cringing at him and his buddies while they perform a bunch of silly larps on stage and then listening to them preach about "opening your hearts" or do you want to read the Bible, be the patriarch of your family maintaining its virtue, morals and piety while putting all faith in Jesus Christ?

For the non-sissified man the choice is obvious.

>>16363650
>What if the Protestants themselves underwent a major reformation/revolution in say India or something and a new group swept across the globe in 2500 AD saying that they actually had the true gospel and everyone else was wrong?
That's literally why Apolstolic succession exists. Most of protestantism is a heresy that the early Church fathers knew would happen if people deviated from the Church. The Church has been battling gnosticism, deviant theology, and protestant rhetoric long before Luther.
>Even if I assume God preserved the Bible until a certain point why would he wait that long to do his work and get the message out
Went over this here>>16363205. The Church preserved the scripture, God's message was lived not written desu.
>it took less time for Muhammad's promise that Muslims would one day take Constantinople to come true.
What's with the muslim shilling here?

>>16362208
Based brother

>>16363714

>>16362074
cringe

>>16362757
and what was Carlyle?? methodist? anglican? where exists his church? I don't even have to look it up and I know that his denomination now ordains women and sodomites, while the True Church stands strong.

>>16361978
Just started my catechism last week. Incredible how humbling it is to be in the church and its people. I feel so undeserving in comparison, like I shouldn’t even be there. These people are too good for my blood. Such a blessing to be with them

>>16361508
reading the lives of the saints and their works is enough to convince me of Catholicism, I wouldre commend St. Therese of Lisieux's autobiography titled "Story of a Soul"

>>16364367
He was the Church of God(and German Idealists).

Nevertheless he is loved by practically all Catholics including Chesterton and one of the best writers of the 19th century, you should read him. His extreme Protestantism is just a portion of his own personal philosophy in life.

>>16364384
That's a funny way to say deism
>>16364371
That's wonderful, loving parishes are a beautiful thing

the Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.

Fuck the prots

>>16364396
>That's a funny way to say deism
Not at all, Carlyle believed in the will of God in this world and mans need to follow it everywhere. For example, even though he called Islam a muddled version of Christianity he also says:

>Mahomet had been wont to retire yearly, during the month Ramadhan, into solitude and silence; as indeed was the Arab custom; a praiseworthy custom, which such a man, above all, would find natural and useful. Communing with his own heart, in the silence of the mountains; himself silent; open to the "small still voices:" it was a right natural custom! Mahomet was in his fortieth year, when having withdrawn to a cavern in Mount Hara, near Mecca, during this Ramadhan, to pass the month in prayer, and meditation on those great questions, he one day told his wife Kadijah, who with his household was with him or near him this year, That by the unspeakable special favor of Heaven he had now found it all out; was in doubt and darkness no longer, but saw it all. That all these Idols and Formulas were nothing, miserable bits of wood; that there was One God in and over all; and we must leave all Idols, and look to Him. That God is great; and that there is nothing else great! He is the Reality. Wooden Idols are not real; He is real. He made us at first, sustains us yet; we and all things are but the shadow of Him; a transitory garment veiling the Eternal Splendor. "Allah akbar, God is great;"—and then also "Islam," That we must submit to God. That our whole strength lies in resigned submission to Him, whatsoever He do to us. For this world, and for the other! The thing He sends to us, were it death and worse than death, shall be good, shall be best; we resign ourselves to God.—"If this be Islam," says Goethe, "do we not all live in Islam?" Yes, all of us that have any moral life; we all live so. It has ever been held the highest wisdom for a man not merely to submit to Necessity,—Necessity will make him submit,—but to know and believe well that the stern thing which Necessity had ordered was the wisest, the best, the thing wanted there. To cease his frantic pretension of scanning this great God's-World in his small fraction of a brain; to know that it had verily, though deep beyond his soundings, a Just Law, that the soul of it was Good;—that his part in it was to conform to the Law of the Whole, and in devout silence follow that; not questioning it, obeying it as unquestionable.

>>16364384
I have read one of his essays - Signs of the Times. No doubt he was a great writer - whether his religious views were worth anything is a different question. Catholics also love C.S. Lewis, who was similarly a heretic. The great thing about Christian charity is its primary emphasis on loving individuals as fellow sons of God, seeking Truth, which allows us to plunder the intellectual fruits of men where we can find them, even if non-Catholic. I'm always open to other essay recommendations however.

>>16363650
Absolutely valid.

I think Orthodoxy by GK Chesterton might be a good read

None of this matters. Your life will still be meaningless. You will still die and be forgotten.

>>16364446
Yes, that is something very appreciable about them. But as far as Carlyle's religious beliefs do go, he is very much worth reading still. I might also recommend his Hero-worship lectures and Sartor Resartus.

>>16361534
>The Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms
This. I knew once I read it I was and will always be a shorter catechism man.

>>16364498
Even if this turns out to be true, it will have been better to have had something to live for.

>>16364384
So he wasn't even Christian and yet you rely on his words? lmao.

What should I ask my pastors ?
New convert
Serious questions please


Also Jesus said call no man father except God, so the 'father' title and his holiness are both against the word of God.

And Catholics spend their money on buildings to God rather than helping Christians.

>>16364869
ask the youngie pastor why if jesus hates the gays that butt sex feels so good

>>16364869
I dare you to bring your 4' filipino bf to ask the pastor night. Do it faggot, ask him why you bottom when your partner is a foot smaller than you

>>16364869
>Also Jesus said call no man father except God, so the 'father' title and his holiness are both against the word of God.

Cornelius a Lapide (and countless others) addresses this in his commentary, he says the following:
>Call no one your father upon earth, &c. He means in the sense of the prime author of life and the preserver of all things, as though ye entirely depended upon any but God. This was what the Gentiles and Atheists did, and others who trusted in men rather than in God. That this is the meaning, is plain from the reason which He subjoins, for one is your Father, &c. “Of whom the whole family in Heaven and earth is named” (Eph. iii. 15). God therefore is the only real Father of all, forasmuch as He only gives soul and life, creates, and preserves. In comparison of Him, says S. Jerome, earthly fathers are only so in a figurative sense, and ought not therefore insolently to command their children, but ought to submit themselves together with their children to God, the chief Father of all.

Fr. Haydock's commentary on it (St. Matthew 9-10):
>Call none your father ... Neither be ye called masters, &c. The meaning is, that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth: and no master is to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers, (1 Corinthians iv. 15,) and for our masters and teachers. (Challoner) --- This name was a title of dignity: the presidents of the assembly of twenty-three judges where so called; the second judge of the sanhedrim, &c. (Bible de Vence) --- Nothing is here forbidden but the contentious divisions, and self-assumed authority, of such as make themselves leaders and favourers of schisms and sects; as Donatus, Arius, Luther, Calvin, and innumerable other of very modern date. But by no means the title of father, attributed by the faith, piety, and confidence of good people, to their directors; for, St. Paul tells the Corinthians, that he is their only spiritual Father: If you have 10,000 instructors in Christ, yet not many Fathers. (1 Corinthians iv. 15.)

>And Catholics spend their money on buildings to God rather than helping Christians.
You are just quoting Judasa at that point, St. John 12:5 "Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?"

So im an uncultured swine with a question
Why does someone need to be either a catholic or a protestant or an orthodox?
Why cant someone just believe in God and the teachings of the bible and ignore everything else?
What would such a person be classified as?

>>16365385
short answer: because outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation

>What would such a person be classified as?
there are the non-denominationals who claim they aren't protestant but are just protestants in denial

>>16364869
Ask him where's sola scriptura in the Bible.

>>16364584
Yes he was a Christian, can you not read? "Church of God", i.e. no particular sect but is still a Christian.

>>16365492
calling yourself a Christian or your saying your church is of God does not make you a Christian

>>16364869
ask him why the Bible says we need to forgive others for us to be forgiven and to be saved, implying we are saved not only by faith

>>16365385
Again, because the bible is not the word of God. In Islam, clerical structures aren't as rigid because they believe they have the word of God written. If this were true of Christians, there would be little need for a Church. Christ was the Word of God made flesh, and He bestowed us Sacraments as gifts. It is the reception, teaching, and granting of these gifts that are all important to Christianity, and is the makeup of the Church. This is why we have a complex clerical system, because it's essential to Christian practice. Christianity does not live outside of the Church. It lives by its traditions, which, if broken, result in gnosticism, protestantism, spiritualism, and pretty much all such worldly perversions.

>>16365492
What "a cultural Christian" or any other gayness product of a modern secular society has to say about Catholicism has cero value. It's like an atheist or a homosexual complaining about the Church. The secular society where a "non-denominational" can live without being hanged is the byproduct of the rupture of Christian unity and the proliferation of thousands of powerless sects after the protestant reformation. Any argument from that kind of people can be reduced to "thanks to the Protestant reformation now I can take this cock up to my ass UwU", it's natural that they will defend the reformation at any cost because it's what indirectly makes their absurd lifestyle possible. In fact, Marx did realize about this and praised Luther as well.

>>16361978
Blessed post.

>>16363036
>>16363103
Evola would stronly disagree there

>>16362074
cringe