/lit/ - Literature

Just right, anon.

>>16319936
Real eyes realize real lies.

>>16319915
I want to write about a guy who finds a pond with tadpoles in it and keeps carrying water to it over a dry summer to help the frogs survive to adulthood.
I realize this isn't a very exciting idea but it felt very impactful to me when I experienced it myself.

What is it about soldiers that makes everyone rightfully despise them?

>>16319915
I feel like I cannot ever find the time to write. I realize this sounds like an excuse, and it probably is, but I don't know how to overcome this simple hurdle.

>>16319970
that's actually really sweet
I think it'd make an excellent short story

>>16319970
Interesting. Would he then go on to have twins, but they die while in mother's womb (not enough water for them to survive)?

>>16319971
they're all idiots with a bloodlust to kill foreigners
some of them are self-righteous; some of the civilian population treats them like heroes

>>16319996
that's cringy anon. Way too unsubtle, and it's just an edgy bad ending to a nice anecdote where someone went out of their way and put effort into helping others for no gain, only because they could.

>>16319971
>>16319998
most people (in the US) go into the army because it's the only way they could possibly afford higher education. It's insidious.

>>16319981
that depends on your schedule, but I'd suggest always keeping a small notebook on your person. Every time you've got some time to kill (on a bus, waiting for someone, etc) whip it out and scribble a few lines. It adds up

I am a man. I have known women, but never developed a very in depth friendship with any, let alone a full blown relationship. Despite this, I'd like to write a female protagonist for a story that's more of a character study than a plot driven narrative. Is it impossible for a man of my condition to portray an accurate and most importantly, engaging female main character?

>>16320010
maybe in urban areas
in rural areas they're dummies with no other options who hate brown people. they don't continue their education. they become cops or laborers or addicts.

>>16320017
>I'd suggest always keeping a small notebook on your person
But King told me that a notebook is where bad ideas live.

>>16319915
I used to write all the time. my dreams, my thoughts, just random shit- I stopped and now I'm stuck in this really awful/Stupid place where I want to start again, but I'm too obsessive about the fact that there's years where I didn't do anything, that I can't force myself to continue. what do?

I have an idea for a story. It's centered around a Prophet who reveals the divine truth of creation. However, no one listens to him and goes about their day with their own belief system. It would showcase the individuality of the appearance of truth and the nuanced aspects of nature.

>>16320032
yes? but art is 95% bad ideas
that's how it works

>>16320037
sorry anon, sounds tedious to me

>>16320028
>never developed a very in depth friendship with any
Sounds pretty hard to accomplish unless there is something seriously wrong with you, which is likely to affect your writing … but hey, nothing is impossible. It's basically the same as writing a male main character. If you want to write the story, write the story.

>>16320037
Careful that you don't end up sounding too Nietzsche-y.

Would any of you lads be so kind as to tell me your thoughts on this passage?

>They exchanged smiles, and a symphony began to play. It lasted only an instant. The violins danced and flitted, like small woodland sprites illustrating the leaves with the tiny bubbles of morning dew. And they piled on top of each other, gradually forming and meshing within itself, as those woodland sprites coalesced into a majestic nymph of the forest, lifting its arms to the heavens and ushering forth a tremendous rain.

>>16319996
Good idea anon. Maybe you should write a story about a man who does nothing to help tadpoles survive to adulthood, then later his newborn twins go on to die of malaria (not enough frogs to keep the mosquito population in check?)
It's a bit heavy-handed, but you seem to have a preference for that.

>>16320068
I don't like the word "itself" there, otherwise it's as fine a poetic interpretation of >cut to hard fucking as any.

>>16320076
Yeah I caught that too as I was rereading it, replaced it with "themselves" right after

Also instead of hard fucking the dude pumps another guy full of bullets

>>16320055
I've just never been able to form strong bonds with people outside my family. Most of the friends I've had are not the kind I'd take a bullet for, for example. It's not exclusive to women.

>>16320107
So what the issue either regarding to them then? It's not like you're going to have an easier time to write a male character that connects with the audience either since your experiences are so different compared to most people. In the end, you can either embrace it and write on, try to become a completely different person or just quit.

>>16320068
>a symphony began to play. It lasted only an instant
If it lasted an instant, it wouldn't be a symphony.
>they piled on top of each other, gradually forming and meshing within itself
Referring to multiple as singular.
>like small woodland sprites
>those woodland sprites
Pointless repetition.

And a terrible, confusing run-on sentence. The mistakes make the flowery language look that much more grotesque, like a guy with a broken knee trying to dance ballet. It's honestly embarrassing to look at.

>>16320137
>The mistakes make the flowery language look that much more grotesque, like a guy with a broken knee trying to dance ballet. It's honestly embarrassing to look at.
Holy shit. That's pretty much how I felt reading it and just didn't have the heart to write.

>>16320153
I understand this may be painful for the author, but I assure it was also painful for me tor read, so we're even.

>>16320137
Thanks man this actually helped a lot

>>16320073
I really like that.
Thank you.

>>16320206
Nooo

>>16319971
combat vet here. people mostly hate us because we've got confidence in something only we can really acquire. in a sense, it isn't "fair" to be able to pride yourself on something only a very small minority of people will ever experience, but it is what it is. i'm not actively trying to be a dick, but i know pretty damn well that i've been tested more harshly and endured more suffering than pretty much everyone i'll ever meet. i'm just tougher than you are, and if it comes down to it you'll know it. i've seen a pretty decent amount of genuine ultraviolence and directly participated in a lot of it. i'll be the first one to admit that i don't live a "successful" life, and i know as little about the world civilians inhabit after 10 years as they actually know about combat. i do my best to not have an attitude about it, but a lot of guys don't have the same qualms, and are happy to label career civilians with words like "soft" or "pussy." the issue is that you kind of are in comparison, but again, i do my best not to rub anyone's face in it. we all know the lives we've led by virtue of our personal choices, and my choices led me down a different path.

>>16320073
>>16320206
While we're being heavy-handed, maybe after his twins die he discovers that an hour after they started dying, three babies fell out a window on the other side of town and because he didn't call an ambulance and met the twins die the ambulance was able to save the three other babies.

>>16320234
good goy, fighting for Israel

>>16319971
Because in these times they arent actual soldiers they’re basically glorified mercenaries. They aren’t actually there defending your land from invaders they’re there invading other lands for wars your country shouldnt be involved in. A good majority of them go in there for benefits and money rather than actual true love for the country, and even if they’re patriotic it never matters because half the time they’re the biggest pack of bumbling idiots youve ever seen. At least for the US, not sure how europes armies are and Im sure its similar problems on different aspects

>>16320234
Not that soldier despising fag buuuuut

>we've got confidence in something only we can really acquire
>something only a very small minority of people will ever experience
Doesn't this apply to basically everyone? You might be more confident about following orders in a warzone. Some accountant is more confident about avoiding taxes for his client. You both learned and prepared for different shit.
>been tested more harshly and endured more suffering than pretty much everyone i'll ever meet
How can one even qualify it? Even aside the fact that feeling suffering is subjective, and some richfag who can't decide on which yacht to buy can experience the same pain as a mother who just lost a child.
>i've seen a pretty decent amount of genuine ultraviolence and directly participated in a lot of it
As did anyone who grew up not in a sheltered neighborhood. Or simply had shitty parents. Or were actually stuck in a warzone. And these people generally don't even have a way out while you choose to be in the position you was.
>a lot of guys don't have the same qualms, and are happy to label career civilians with words like "soft" or "pussy."
Which is just a low IQ take and inability to look outside of their bubble. Also generally coping mechanism when they suck integrating back into civil life.

>>16320284
the first thing to go out the door when a bullet snaps past your head are thoughts of queen and country. there's literally nothing but you and the situation you have to deal with, there's no room for garbage like patriotism. patriotism will get you to the recruiter's office, sure, but once you're boots on the ground taking contact, nobody has the capacity to give a shit about anything else. you don't want patriots in the trenches, you want professionals.

you guys really are 100% clueless about the military. it's pretty hilarious how definitively you spout literal fantasies and drivel.

>>16320238
But it turns out those three other dead babies would've grown up to be domestic terrorists had they lived

>>16319981
You wrote this post saying you don't have time to write. Not only is it a bad excuse you've just proven how worthless it is

>>16319970
It sounds nice. As long as you have a few good plot points to stick to and some good prose I'm sure it would make for a comfy little story.

>>16320234
good job filling rich douchebags pockets. you are merely product. i dont care how many kids you sniped

>>16320308
>domestic terrorists
oh please. thats what americans called the early taliban when they were fighting against us occupying their country. admit it. you think the bad guys are brown.

>>16320305
A professional can do both, and its been done in the past. If you dont love the country you fight for then again you’re nothing more than a mercenary chasing a paycheck which is why most dont care about their job not being about defending their nations borders but invading others. I dont think everyone has to constantly think about how they love their country every 2 seconds but if your reasons are impure then you shouldnt be there. The US army is a fucking laughingstock of the world for a reason, has been humiliated multiple times and a pinnacle example of what happens when you hire fucking anyone

>>16320364
Basically this https://youtu.be/BUf_8jyxbiM

>>16320234
Okay, this is too much bullshit, I'm not interested.

>>16320284
Yeah, this sounds more like it.

>>16320238
Perfect.
Thanks a lot.

>>16320300
>some richfag who can't decide on which yacht to buy can experience the same pain as a mother who just lost a child
a decent definition of toughness which actually encapsulates the essence is probably something along the lines of your subjective experience of stressors wrt their actual gravity. for instance, where said richfag experiences a high degree of stress over which yacht he wants to buy, another person might experience that same degree of stress while carrying 100 pounds on their back over 20 miles in 120 degree heat on four hours' sleep while constantly dealing with the very real threat of death. i'm the last person to glamorize anything about the nasty nature of war, but i can recognize how much it sucks while also valuing what it taught me about myself. pure subjective metrics of stress have no real indication of anything except when measured against an obstacle. while the evaluation of those obstacles is still ultimately subjective, i'd say that there's still enough of a general consensus to say that someone who gets stressed out about choosing a yacht to purchase has a low threshold of stress inducement, and because of this is unlikely to endure situations which will produce more stress.
>As did anyone who grew up not in a sheltered neighborhood. Or simply had shitty parents. Or were actually stuck in a warzone. And these people generally don't even have a way out while you choose to be in the position you was.
for the record, you can't just say "i quit" on deployment. once you sign up you have both a legal obligation to do what the army tells you, legally enforceable with death (unironically), as well as the problem of there generally being a difficulty in leaving a hostile country where there are no easy ways out. also, we live much rougher than any civilian in those countries live. we are subjected to more acute danger per step taken, and do so under far more physically and mentally strenuous circumstances. i'm sure growing up there sucks, but to try to impugn the difficulty is just ignorant. remember that i have actually been to two different warzones for two years of my life, so i actually know from the first person how those people live. the taliban take winter vacations in pakistan for fuck's sake.
>Also generally coping mechanism when they suck integrating back into civil life.
your world just runs mine. were the tables turned and you were one of my little snot nosed privates, i would take a lot of pleasure in breaking you and watching your coping mechanisms. given how difficult the transition back into the civilian world is, i don't really accept the idea that someone could be lesser for having difficulty reintegrating.
>>16320329
hate to break it to you, but we're all products with value in this late stage of capitalism. the only way you could avoid this is by being a complete net leech on society, but even then you'd just be a product with negative value.

>>16320364
>A professional can do both, and its been done in the past
okay, you know better than i do about what it's like to be at war. is that what you want to hear? sometimes people are just wrong. you've got no reason to be right, but as someone who DOES have a reason to be right about this kind of thing, you should probably entertain the notion that i might be saying something that supersedes whatever fairytale you've got cooked up in your head.

>>16320328
>good plot points
Dreading over whether or not a 40% possibility of rain will materialize is not much of a plot point, but I think I can come up with something.

>>16319915
I don't usually do poetry, but somehow, I ended up trying my hand at it. Any and all (You)s welcome.


Evergreen

A vision green that clouds the mind -
Not of hope, but of envy's scheme,
Not of others, but myself to dream -
Knowing well just what I'll find.

The shadow rose from strangled nets,
The master - I, or what survives?
The web my fate, a time of flies;
To fall and take the dive? Yes, let's!

The curtain's fallen and stage is dry;
The audience left; the props remain;
Yet I still run where once I step'd.

My eyes are glazed; I care not why!
The truth is past and future's same.
Yet I still love what once I liked.

>>16320424
You think im trying to be some epic kid that wants to own you epic style online, I dont care about that I care about how the modern soldier isnt the soldiers that used to defend nations anymore. Thats why they’re so easily reviled. I dont have battle experience in any sense but Im not talking about battle experience Im discussing how soldiers arent soldiers anymore and you dont need battle experience to see you this you need an understanding of history and what a soldier is

>>16319962
powerful
moving
beautifully heartbreaking

>>16320575
to see this you need*
Sorry about that

>>16320055
>Sounds pretty hard to accomplish unless there is something seriously wrong with you
maybe he just spoke to a woman for more than five minutes

>>16320234
Insectoid Neets wont ever understand desu

>>16320234
>people mostly hate us because we've got confidence in something only we can really acquire
Eh.. no.
Most people have to grow up and attain autonomy in order to function - make money, have relationships, take care of day to day things, become independent from their parents.
Soldiers, on the other hand, give their autonomy away and acquire a sense of pride that is, empirically, found only in highly impressionable individuals. That is why the army commercials focus on things such as pride, sense of belonging, and overall "coolness" and masculinity associated with being a soldier.
In reality, soldiers are people who give up their autonomy, and can still function in our society. That's what's likely infuriating to most people.

>>16320411
>their actual gravity
Still tends to depend on a very biased interpretation unless we stick to the purely basic stuff like possibility of death. (Which itself isn't even particularly high for Western soldiers compared to some blue collar jobs)
>i can recognize how much it sucks while also valuing what it taught me about myself
Of course, that's what shitty situations tend to do when we overcome them.
>someone who gets stressed out about choosing a yacht to purchase has a low threshold of stress inducement, and because of this is unlikely to endure situations which will produce more stress.
Very likely, but the latter has be trained for that. The richfag was more likely trained how to invest daddies money. And well, the numbers do show that it's generally easier to train someone to become a soldier than investor (feel free to replace it with any white collar job that requires less luck to get in)
>you can't just say "i quit" on deployment.
Of course it's not just a trip after all but you generally can get discharged or the likes. There are ways to get out of the shit that aren't the casket. Aside of specific temporarily limited scenarios.

Before you even get to THIS point, you got your training and can at least expect in theory what's going to happen and why. Generally have the support of a multibillion dollar industry and other soldiers too. A civilian suddenly having to avoid shots and a bomb exploding while going to the market never had any of it.
>we live much rougher than any civilian in those countries live
>do so under far more physically and mentally strenuous circumstances
Come on, how often did you have to worry about the food parachute arriving (assuming they are lucky enough to get any) or roof over your head? How often did you have to worry about what the fuck is suddenly going on in your country and how you can escape? Having to deal with your home becoming a warzone without any sort of support is another level of suck. And hell, even how shitty the chance of your friends dying is, the possibility of THAT, and your parents/children also kicking the bucket is an extra step of this silly suffering-dick comparission.
>the taliban take winter vacations in pakistan for fuck's sake.
Not an option for normal civilians either way. Also it's not like most Western soldiers even get into actual combat.
>given how difficult the transition back into the civilian world is, i don't really accept the idea that someone could be lesser for having difficulty reintegrating.
But that's kinda the crux of my entire point, it's not some lesser or better sort of shit. It's people learning different skills and cope mechanisms to deal with the problems they will encounter. Is the psychologist who had to overcome their own struggles and now sitting in a comfy chair really more of a pussy than the guy crying to him about not being able to hold a job after returning? Sounds silly to judge either.

>write a scene
>care for every word and sentence like my own children
>polish the tiniest nuances and build up an atmosphere
>no plot lol
I make it up as I go along. I think it's working but fuck it can get frustrating and scary not knowing where you're gonna go but knowing full well you HAVE to go somewhere.

>>16320575
How much do you think you actually know about soldiers back in the days? It's not like mercs are a new thing. Carthage had an entire army with them. Unedited primary sources aren't even that common. Obviously you're going to get some nice sounding propaganda ... ideally to sell you on the shit too.

https://www.sfwa.org/2009/06/18/turkey-city-lexicon-a-primer-for-sf-workshops/

great article about things to avoid when writing, focused on SF but really, applicable to anything

in school we have to write an essay, but we can only pick between two topics: Online bullying and Instagram staging.
i'm thinking about picking online bullying and writing edgy shit about the studies proving girls are attracted to bullies, but idk.
feeling pissed.
glad that im graduating soon.

>>16320760
Nah Im bored and dont want to derail the writing general or anything so Ill just drop it entirely

Lit and tips to write better?

>>16320826
How is cyberbullying even real just walk away bro

>>16320786
>Authors who smoke or drink while writing often drown or choke their characters with an endless supply of booze and cigs.
Guilty as charged. Although my character being tired as fuck makes sense, OKAY? And smoking is meant to remind him of his probably dead girlfriend, since he started because of her.

>List of actions a character could have taken, but didn’t. Frequently includes all the reasons why. In this nervous mannerism, the author stops the action dead to work out complicated plot problems at the reader’s expense.
Is it even that bad when done before or after the action? I did it at start a bit, when the character is considering his choices and then picks one which seems idiotic. Basically to show, they are perfectly capable of making rational and smart decisions but don't want to.

I'm a bit surprised it never mentioned filtering and filter words.

>It is three thousand light years to the Vatican. Once, I believed that space could have no power over faith, just as I believed that the heavens declared the glory of God's handiwork. Now I have seen that handiwork, and my faith is sorely troubled. I stare at the crucifix that hangs on the cabin wall above the Mark VI Computer, and for the first time in my life I wonder if it is no more than an empty symbol.

>mark VI computer

scifi from the 60s is kind of wack

>>16320786
Funny stuff

First person or third person?

>>16320875
>Is it even that bad when done before or after the action?

I do that too. It's practically impossible to explain why the character did what they did in some situations without acknowledging that there were alternatives. It's a little too much asked of the average reader to figure it all out for themselves.

>>16320999
I always found first sounds too amateurish and is too repetitive. Besides, it doesn't offer much perspective. Third with first person cursive felt a lot more fun without even having to give up on the benefits of the first.

>>16320999
First person is incel, third person is better and much more versatile

>>16320999

>>16320999
In Gardner's art of fiction, the guy said third person omniscient is the patrician's choices as it gives the ability to control the world view of every character, and everything else. While third person limited is basically first person but done in a retard way for no reason. The problem is we are too used to third person limited that it seems the most easy choice. Otherwise, third person omniscient for epic, large scale affairs and first person for personal stories

>>16320859
read alot

>>16321171
Third person omniscient has too much distance. It's like reading an article or history book instead of being eery close to the action.

>>16320743
>your parents/children also kicking the bucket is an extra step of this silly suffering-dick comparission.
i may have gone too far with what i said. i'll admit that straight up. i let myself get carried away. people are just so numb to the degree to which shit sucks on deployment. it's all so abstract to people who've never served, and there's no way i can just take my experience and put it into someone else's brain. it just sucks to see people from a state of complete ignorance senselessly shitting on something you know really well. it feels like superlative is the only way sometimes to get just a part of the meaning across, even if it loses nuance in the process. that's my bad.

i've got more things i could say on specific points, but i'd just be defending myself and that shit gets exhausting. you've got some valid points and some i could still disagree with. nobody has any reason to give a shit about vets, and i don't expect anyone to. my choices are my own, and i've been well compensated for them. i certainly don't need anything more. i'm just trying to say something honest.

>>16321383
> it just sucks to see people from a state of complete ignorance senselessly shitting on something you know really well
Yeah, that's given. Shit, it'd be even annoying with something trivial when someone obviously clueless is aggressively ignorant and talks shit about things they clearly have no idea about. And that's without adding the frequency of it happening.

Given the topic is even started with a hostile accusation, you did balance it fine IMO. It's a shame even touching the topic so often oscillates between "BASED VETS, PLZ LET ME LICK YOUR ASS" vs "FUCK YOU, BABY KILLERS".

Rate my poetry desu

>>Birth of a Tragedian
>Wind-swept brow: furrowing nothingness
>The mother winces: screaming high-pitched with her contractions
>The bairn is coming unto the world: let the men in white receive him
>A machine in the background beeps: the little lines appearing
>Turning on their points: the triangle is in motion
>Triadic dialectic: elephantine pantomime
>Churches burning in the distance: a lifetime sentence for arson
>Awaken, ye Vargsmal be heard now: go, go for the Au GoGo drinking Whiskey

>>16320999
>>16321271
I do both; literal whos or side characters get third person and protagonists get first person.

2nd anon made a solid point though; omniscient I think is good for side chapters that might've explained things after the fact (The light novel Saga of Tanya the Evil did this wonderfully I think) but if you do it too much or you make it the basis for your story then it's not exactly a fun read to anyone but you.

t. did the same thing and regretted it and did the most lousy pants-writing narrative restart from 1/3rd pov.

>>16320786
Some of it is useful, but I feel like the people who wrote this nitpick way too much. Some of the things they mentioned are done by even the best authors in the genre

>>16322122
you write like you have a thesaurus rote memorised.

>>16319915
My sentences always run way too long when I write anything, how do I improve on this?

Ugh, I don't know what to write about. What do?

>>16323438
>My sentences always run way too long when I write anything. How do I improve on this?

Fix'd that for you.

>>16323686
Shit it wasn't even intentional

>>16323686
>>16323731
Kek. Yeah, anon. Don't be afraid to use periods. Overusing commas is a novice mistake and leads to all sorts of grammar and readability issues

I need some help writing my story, anons. It's for an ASOIAF /qst/ My protagonist is an evil/amoral character with an incredible grudge against the ruling noble family in his hometown. He makes a vow to his mother on her deathbed to wipe out the family. (The mother was raped by the head of the noble family, and the lands belonged to her family before the current ruling family betrayed them. The mother wants the protagonist to wipe out that family and take the land for himself.)

The trouble is that while the head of the family is an evil backstabbing bastard, his children are mostly innocent. The heir is a dutiful son who wants to help the peasants, and the daughter is a naive innocent young woman. The moral conflict of the story is how the protagonist deals with his vow to his mother when the children are so sympathetic. Only, I have no clue how to resolve this moral conflict. The "antagonists" are far more sympathetic than the protagonist, whose redeeming qualities may be his devotion to his mother, and that he wants the best for the peasants as well.

Help me resolve this conflict, should I add more flaws to the children to make them seem worse? More "good" qualities to the protagonist even though he's evil/amoral on the scale? I know the protagonist needs to be somewhat relatable for the readers to enjoy reading him.

>>16320999
2nd

How do you write good? Also explain to me, a brainlet, how reading helps you write better. I figure it's a combination of
>Inspiring you for your own ideas, building a repertoire of concepts to draw from
>Letting you get a better handle on tropes and writing conventions
>Inspecting writing styles and understanding why they chose to write that way
>Understanding good and bad writing (more difficult, as this requires a good critical sense)

>>16323889
>should I add more flaws to the children to make them seem worse?
Don't do this. That would just make it boring standard revenge story. You should be fine as long as your protagonist isn't edgy evil. Just a relatable guy who loves his mother.

What does /wg/ think of short-form epithet names for minor/side/background characters? I asked a few other writer folk about it and surprisingly a good amount were against the idea and insisted on using actual names, but it never hurts for second opinion. So far there's been a fair of red and mauve shirts that are usually self-contained to a few chapters with epithet names like 'Officer Meatloaf' or 'Old Man'.

Here's a excerpt for one of the characters I wasn't sure what to name.

>the voice of the long bearded ginger-haired commander cuts off the alarmed bridge officer, “what is going on?” He inquires in a harsh tone with a sharp gaze fixated on the lone Federation battleship.
>Generally, this would be the time for formal salutes; but there is none of it. The bridge officer clears his throat and presents himself before the commander. “Sir! A single ship we identified as a Federation battleship has emerged from a warp exit point without prior warning or so much as a hail yet…” Commander Ginger nods and strokes his beard. “What are your orders?” The bridge officer asks diligently, although still a bit shaken by the warp jump.
>Commander Ginger crosses his arms, and shifts his eyes between the Federation battleship and his men, “I take it we have yet to establish communications with the battleship?…” The bearded commander asks, and the bridge officer looks back the communication operator who also shakes his head. “—Do we know if any of the other ships has been able to contact the battleship?” The communications operator again shakes his head no. Commander Ginger once again strokes his beard in ponder,

This same chapter also has the narrator as 'Four-eyes'. And a character he bants with as '(Warrant) Officer Freckles' since, similarly, they're not important to the plot and in Freckles and glasses-kun's case they probably won't ever get mentioned ever again aside from a little scene they make in protag-chan's presence some dozen chapters later. I was thinking of giving them names at the end of the chapter, but I'm not sure yet. I'll probably just brace for actual reader input and edit names in if it comes to it, though.

Is it true that brits use single ‘ for dialogue?

>>16324160
I want to do that, but I don't see how the protagonist kills the dutiful son who wants the best for the peasants or the innocent daughter still caught up in childhood stories of knights and damsels without being cartoonishly evil. That's what I want help with.

>>16324248
Yes.

>>16324236
I wouldn't mind it, personally. It's definitely a cultural thing, though. Chinese lit makes extensive use of nicknames and honorary titles, while western lit generally prefers to just use their actual names. I'd say that the biggest issue a lot of writers may take with it is the attribution of nicknames by a third-person narrator which is not, in itself, supposed to be a character that would refer to any person by anything but their actual name. It may also lead to some confusion in the long run if you decide that you want to refer to one of those characters again

I'm trying to write my thoughts about the media I consume but there's a vacuum inside my brain that sucks 80% of my thoughts and because of that I feel like I can't write. Also, one thing I noticed was that I can't make a transition my sentences. I'm talking about something and then suddenly I'm talking about something else. What should I do?

>>16324236
One of my favourite novels has almost all of its main charachters named with nicknames that reveal something about them. It helps that that's how the others charachters refer to them, not solely the narrator (which would be weird I think). Some of them also have names, but they don't feel as important, knowing their knicknames.
Some time ago I saw an essay that talked about this and the thesis was something along the lines of, meanwhile our names indicate our procedence (our lineage and such), nicknames serve to mask this, also being a more individual mark because it's us that forge them with our own unique traits. Don't know if this interest you.
tl;dr: I think is neat if you pull it off well.

>>16325000
Stop getting distracted. Learn to focus on one thing at a time

>>16325000
Use a new paragraph when you write a new thing.

>>16325000
Just noticed the typo, my bad
>>16325082
Any tips?
>>16325092
I already do that but maybe I need to do it more. Thanks.

what happened to /crit/ threads?

>>16325689
Good question

>>16325689
Haven't looked at them for years, but I remember them being flooded with low effort writing, and very few people were actually critiquing. I don't imagine they have gotten much better

I wrote genre FANfiction when the muse hit me in a /tg/ thread while a friend of mine was getting trashed in a pub forty minutes out from home. I know the subject matter's abysmal but what do you think of it from a technical standpoint? Keep in mind I pissed it out in little under twenty minutes on mobile.
>https://pastebin.com/FVwcr0rU

Is there a guide to writing evil characters in a compelling way? Any good example of well written evil protagonists? Or even antagonists, I just want to learn how to write an evil character who's not perpetually angry or whiny.

>>16326033
>he fell for the good vs evil meme
Good antagonists have reasons for what they're doing that the reader can, on some level, sympathize with. Character's that are evil for the sake of being evil are not interesting to readers because they're so far removed from any understanding. Show the reader why your character is how he is, and why he's doing whatever it is that he's doing.

I'm reading a long novel right now where, 400 pages into it, after using a third person narrator the entire time, it shifts to first person for a chapter and gives the intimate backstory of one of the antagonists and her thoughts during earlier chapters in the novel. It made the character interesting and understandable, because while the protagonists considered her undeniably evil, myself, the reader, was able to understand the how and why of her character.

>>16326086
I'm trying to come up with a compelling enough reason for the person to do what he is doing, but I'm afraid the "good guys" have a much stronger reason. I guess I'm searching for reasonable and understandable motives for the antagonist but he still must have a reason to oppose the "good guys". Should I just give up and search TvTropes?

>>16326169
>Should I just give up and search TvTropes?
yes

A question thats probably idiotic
Is it possible to overcome "things happen to the mc because he's the mc"?
An author might come up with a multitude of reasons about why but at the end of the day the real reason will always be the same, because the mc is the mc
Is overming that "flaw" if you can even call it that, possible?

>>16326362
Dire post in multiple ways but yes the things happen because of the other actors in the story and not by chance.

>>16326362
Not possible. A well written story is one in which it's contrivances are properly masked in a way that makes something seem plausible. This is what leads to a reader's suspension of disbelief.

>>16320999
First person, present tense SOC is the ideal form. IMO.

>>16326362
MC is the MC because things happen to him.

>>16326362
Big brain take:
Things in the story only happen because the author wanted it.

>>16326362
Simple. Things don't happen to the MC, the MC happens to things

>>16324236
Is it comedy? Because it becomes comedy if you do that. "Commander Ginger"? Holy hell

Wrote this some time ago. Tried to describe the relationship between my mind and I. How thoughts sometimes take a life of their own, creating or destructing. I am 19 years old with little writing experience but something tells me I need to write. I suppose my experience with panic disorder makes me feel that I have something meaningful to write.

Here it is.
The movement was swift, forceful and above all abusive. It hid him and stoned him, broke him and pushed him. A soft child was beholden to scents and sensations only found in the gray. Nuances belonging only to the strokes of time. A splendor only found in the wretchedness of introspection and its delusional projection upon his spaces. This, was the first time this eleven-year-old experienced vagueness. A feeling of distrust and disengagement in reality. A quick pause in which nature seemed to morph and twist, brushing his cheeks, caressing neck. Wind blew just for him, traveling from the rambling grass and decomposing fruit into a state of mellowness. Light bounced and befriended the unfamiliar until reaching a path yet unknown, as it dispersed within the child’s muddied eyes. A murkiness infested by stimuli and sound, a pull from the old. Confusion was novel to him and strangely it didn’t result in fright but rather in humiliation. How could this life, which had just begun, be so intrusive? Why would it enter his home, turn of the lights and move everything out of place just to turn them on again? But why, in the most insensitive way, would it seize his own tiny hand and turn it into at a second glance nothing more than muscle and tissue? Making his own appendage, from which he held to his mother and played with his father, from which he caressed his wounds and crafted his wins an abstraction so illegible to him as the existence of his parents beyond the confines of his mind.
This, was the movement. More exactly a thought, even more exactly a sensation. One that that could’ve easily originated from the stomach, or his right leg, even the hairs drifting from his head. It revolved around the pure and benign question of how, could he possibly discern whether his mother and father were really there or were they just a pitiless toil of his imagination.

>>16326582
I think it might be a little jarring and goofy. I haven't had any readers complain about it yet though, and I even asked one of my readers directly if he thinks it was a good idea and he seemed on board with it. I wounded up giving freckles a proper name by the end of the chapter though, but not the other two. Maybe later when I introduce them again.

>>16323889
Oh no, you are in very real risk of having some depth in your revenge story. You should think up some comically evil, hidden quirk for all the children to justify their murder, so that the readers don't need to feel emotionally challenged. Also make sure the protagonist gives each of them a long-winded speech as they die, explaining exactly what they did wrong, so that no one could possibly arrive in the mistaken conclusion that you as the author endorse such problematic behavior.

>>16326609
Maybe they automatically assumed it was parody? They wouldn't be bothered then.

>>16326585
I like it. If you continue and decide to submit writing (even to online lit-journals) refrain from saying that you feel like you 'have' to write. No one will take you seriously.

>>16326642

True hahaha, thanks anyway

>>16326612
I think it is I, the author who is unequipped to handle the emotional challenge.

>>16326612
>>16326740
I'm going to read the Count of Monte Cristo again to see how the MC handles revenge and those who may not deserve it.

>>16326740
It is clear that the author is a faggot

>>16326754
Illegal in my country.

>>16326801
Alright then anon. Lets commit some crimes together.

>>16326752
Monte Cristo is indeed among the best revenge stories ever written, but for once, I'd appreciate a revenge story that is not the Count of Monte Cristo with only the names changed.

>>16326561
This.

>>16326740
All the more reasons to go through with it.

>>16326844
How is it a good revenge story when he just pussies out and forgives everyone?

>>16326612
I read this in the Terrible Writing Advice voice.

>>16326868
Based.

Though I found his stuff more entertaining than of any use. All the advice seems obvious to a child.

>>16326868
>>16326876
Any actual YouTube channels to improve my writing?

>>16326933
Just read Tails Gets Trolled and try to understand why it's genius.

>>16322122
>invoking nihility
>invoking birth as a raw wound with... gasp... screaming
>mixture of grandiose and clinical imagery ala Plath
>throwing in philosphical jargon
>no attention to subtle sound effects such as assonance or consonance, no joy for the word itself
>ending with fragmented declamation mixed with contemporary reference ala John Berryman
>diary-level melodrama and philosophical pessimism

Go take a walk in a park or any other area in the vicinity. Stop. Look at three ordinary objects. Read a book on poetic meter and phonetics. Write a sonnet on those three objects picking out interesting details you think would be worthy to poeticize. Read the poem out to yourself while measuring how well each word rings out in your throat. Read the words of other poets who have mastered the art of putting beautiful sounds together. Compare your dreck with their perfection and fine tune until you have exhausted everything you can with the poem (which will still likely be dreck). Rinse and repeat until you have 500 sonnets. After having done the above, pick an interesting historical subject beyond the solipsistic crannies of your mind, think about how to represent that historical subject in verse form, and, finally, write poetry.

What writing software do you lads like? I usually just use something free and basic like FocusWriter, jarte or Q10. Wondering if it's worth buying something premium with more features for keeping notes and references for novella writing.
Good luck with your literary exploits, if anyone writes a modern classic it'll be you lads. Keep on grinding!

>>16319915
people advised me not to come here but i'll try asking for advice anyway:
i want to practice writing for making manga (no bully) but i feel pretty lost about what i should do to get better at creating a story.

people advised me to avoid /lit/ because apparently you guys value prose over everything else (including story structure). in my case i've read a bunch of books about story structure already, and while they're insightful and useful they didn't really help me establish a writing habit. writing still feels very weird to me. even just the fact that i'm making stuff up as i go still feels very unusual, very 'random' to me.
what can i do to get more familiar with the process? I want to become the kind of author that can work with a theme.

are there any books i can read or any exercises that i could do to help me improve?

>>16327775
Yeah, lit is full of spergs who don't actually appreciate stories and just want pretty words. Just ignore them.

>they didn't really help me establish a writing habit
>still feels very unusual, very 'random' to me.
what can i do to get more familiar with the process?
Writing does that. Plan out a story with a basic chapter to chapter outline and write the shit down. Finishing one novel will do much more for learning than reading dozens of books about writing.

If the basic 3-5-7 act plot structures aren't enough for you, you can look at even more detailed cookie cutter shit like Save The Cat; but you probably already know the basic beats a story has from consuming media.

>>16327775
Just try to write everyday. If you can't think of anything to write, then look up writing prompts online and write for five or ten minutes about the first one you find.

>>16327775
Write short stories. Two a week for a month. Any idea will do. You will learn a lot.

>>16327813
>>16327815
i'm not sure about writing a full novel for exercise only. but maybe that's what i need? but since the goal is manga, i figure i should go for short stories instead.

how much should i be writing, just to get an idea (in terms of wordcount)? is it possible to write a short story a day or should i aim for something different? again, i have little experience so i'm not sure what to aim for.

>>16327835
i'll do that, thanks

>>16327847
don't bother with word count, just write for a time. Then you can see how much you improve over time in terms of quantity written in a period of time.

>>16327847
>>16327857
Anything 4 digits is a short story really, you could aim for one a day but you're not trying to learn to write literature so writing lots of words quickly isn't something you need so a couple a week will probably be fine. The key thing to remember is that a short story isn't a scene or a premise, it is just that - a complete story that just happens to be a bit on the short side.

>>16322122
Triadic dialectic: elephantine pantomime

i like this, sounds nice

>>16327858
>>16327858
>just write for a time
i'll do that, thanks for the advice.

should i focus on quality or should i focus on advancing the story and putting words on the paper? i often get stuck because i end up thinking that my work sucks or because i'm feeling aimless.

>>16327887
Don't worry about quality, just keep writing.

>>16324332
Just make sure he has a good reason and is believable. Should be good. Especially if it's from his perspective. Things like loving his mother, his mother being raped, wanting what's best for society (nobility have to be destroyed for that to work). Is he likely to just accept that the two kids are 100% good people?

>>16327887
Advancement over quality at start. It's easier to fix stuff in revision when you have stuff to fix. Expect it to suck, you'll write tons of shit stories until you get one out that's alright. Just gotta figure what exactly sucks and fix it in the next attempt.

>>16327892
>>16327905
sounds rough, i'll push through it then.
i guess it is the same in art. no matter how long and artist sits on a single drawing, there is a limit to what can be done with ones current skill level. we call it polishing a turd over there.

Horror about the supposedly real evil creator which challenge the concept of good, truth and what's being human is really about in few individual characters life, Mixing it with a plot that contain cult and murder investigation. Decent or not?

I already wrote it just want to check if the idea sound incredibly tedious and cringe, It does sound like it when i put it into words but on the story level i feel like it pass modestly.

>>16327933
I'd give it a good read. It really depends on how interesting the character of the creator and his subjects are in practice.

stupid question, sorry: are block paragraphs allowed?

>>16324248
>write in UK spelling
>use " for dialogue
shit, i guess i'll go back to US spelling

>>16328035
The creator is passive idea in the story, He doesn't have any character, I expressed him through a few characters in the story, The plot never reveal an actual metaphysical instance or character but it leads to no other consistent explanation other than that it existed in the story.

>>16328192
Ah, I see! Sounds like a piece you put your heart and mind into, a daring synthesis if you will. It'll be interesting to see what kind of moral dilemmas illustrate the overall themes you're aiming to portray. Always love a bit of cults and murder too, me.

>>16328124
Block paragraphs are for high school essays and online blogs.

>>16328356
thanks

lads im getting a short fiction published. so long and thanks for all the spooks

If you’ve found yourself with some extra time on your hands, have you put it to good use? There’s one Houstonian who has put her best foot forward during this entire pandemic. Writer and mother of 4, Nkem Denchukwu has written all of these children's books since the pandemic began.

“Put Me In Your Shoes” is a book that sheds lights on racism, and the importance of unity, kindness and one love. This book shows that when you raise a child well, then, you would have raised a person that is the best version of themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ErtubXXHHs

"See Me Don’t Judge me" is a book about learning to be content with who you are.

"The Cow Without A Tail" is about Milly, a cow who was born without a tail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKVTpCfS4M

"Skin" is a children's book that teachers children about skin color differences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWPQ5a1K_tk

"Be My Eyes" is a story about a love between a Nigerian child and her family.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zByhxqWVaY

>>16328522
congrats babe. first time or nah?

>>16328526
Based.

Is this poem any good or should I tighten up its structure moreso? Is it too loose?

Oh Lord of all, all over reignth


above all life, which he createth

made all things by his desire, his glory an ancient fire

and he is king, and he is king

Your name is supreme, all is but your dream

Your name is supreme, all is but your dream

all life he did create, oh lord you are great and you are great

he made all things by his design, and he is alone and divine ,

and he is king and he is king

after all should pass away, with you I shall stay.

he shall reign alone in majesty as it was and is today and he shall be and he shall be for he is He.

Is there any "absolute beginner's guide to writing" around?

>>16327206
Thanks for the overall advice, I need more help in doing poetry and brutal honesty will do me a world of good.
>pick an interesting historical subject beyond the solipsistic crannies of your mind, think about how to represent that historical subject in verse form, and, finally, write poetry
I've already written about 3500 words on the French Revolution in Rhyme Royal scheme. But it wasn't that good, I'm getting an editor to look over it next month though.
>dreck
By the way, I received the highest marks in my contemporary writing course, so let that sink in how much academia likes my dreck. Not saying I'm good, but there's definitely no musicality left in poetry (I usually go off some clanging rather than true poetry).

>>16323288
Is that a good thing? Sounds better than just using an electronic thesaurus or the "synonyms" in Word, and I do have a very thin, hardback thesaurus I wished I'd memorised.

>>16327206
I think I found my book to read about poetic meter, but the other book on phonetics looks a little too linguistic. I can't find a good book on phonetics and phonology in poetics, do you know any?

>>16328847
Writing for Dummies

>>16328847
On what aspect?

For craft, Techniques of the Selling Writer is quite comprehensive (though the writing style is annoying as hell). If you're like most of the people in this thread and writing YA fantasy, try the Fantasy Fiction Formula, which is the same book but applied to that genre (and with clearer explanations and terminology imo).

For process, From Where You Dream is dogmatic but mostly accurate.

For inspiration, John Gardner's Becoming a Novelist and The Art of Fiction.

For short stories, Making Shapely Fiction and a good anthology (I recommend Best Russian Short Stories).

For screenplays, The Nutshell Method and the last chapter of Mckee's Story (the about process). Also the The Art of Dramatic Writing.

>>16327933
>>16328192
I actually would like to read this. Post it if you got it anon.

>>16326852
doesnt have to be that way. It could be a good revenge story where he comes out looking like an unrepentant jackass with zero regard for human life. Where he himself is the target of a vengeful actor at the end.
I dunno man. Why does your character have to remain a good person?

>>16329385
I think that post is talking about Dantes

>>16319915
niggadeeboo, oh niggadeeboo
wherefore is it that thou dost pull thine accursed triggadeeboo?
Whence whats giveth doth come to thee, comes at no avail
It will be only your ass that ends up in jail

>>16329385
I'm the anon who's writing this character, will such a story be interesting enough for the readers?

After accepting that having to self-publish is a real possibility, I looked into RR. And man, this is way worse than I thought. Of out the 10+ stories I checked out, maybe one had a non terrible opening sentence. Why is this place mentioned here so often? I remember checking out Wattpad a few years ago, and sure, the stuff was bad, but in an adorable way when it's obvious the author is struggling and trying. RR feels more like a dump for deleted scenes and first time attempts. Even /crit/ threads rarely felt as bad.

Is there a special way to look for content or something?

instead of Wattpad? (Where writers at least

After accepting that having to self-publish is a real possibility, I looked into RR. And man, this is way worse than I thought. Of out the 10+ stories I checked out, maybe one had a non terrible opening sentence. Why is this place mentioned here so often? I remember checking out Wattpad a few years ago, and sure, the stuff was bad, but in an adorable way when it's obvious the author is struggling and trying. RR feels more like a dump for deleted scenes and first time attempts. Even /crit/ threads rarely felt as bad.

Is there a special way to look for content or something?

>>16329489
LitRPG is huge for some reason.
It's basically just DBZ for girls.

>>16329663
Are there different branches, like a Choose Your Adventure novel? Can people pay for the protagonist to make certain choices, and that's how people make money via Patreon?

>>16329446
Depends. Who are your readers?
In my personal opinion, I would probably enjoy it if it was done well.

>>16328542
first
thanks!

>>16329446
As in >an unrepentant jackass with zero regard for human life?
Maybe if they are funny and charming through it all. Ideally cute too.

>>16329832
Good god, why not just write for the sake of art? Why does everything have to be monetized, including the fucking PLOT, basic sequence of events and raw material of storytelling

>>16329663
It seems pretty similar to the whole portal trend in more popular fiction too. What the hell happened.

>>16329941
Probably because the people live in third world shitholes and can't rely on gibs. It's kinda icky but also understandable.

>>16329489
>Why is this place mentioned here so often?
Because of isekaitards. Shame them for being such whenever they mention the site.

>>16329941
I'm unemployed and can't (safely) get a job during the pandemic, so I've turned to writing for money

>>16330000
Quads never lie.

>>16329870
Alright, thanks for the encouragement. The readers are fellow 4chan users over on /qst/. I'll post a link here when I start the quest, but it might be unfair to those anons that you know more of the story than them, at least initially.

>>16329936
Thanks for the suggestion, it'll be difficult to mix the anger over the mother being raped with fun and charm, maybe it's a coping mechanism for the character. Character is a male, unfortunately, but I'll try to make the potential waifus cute.

>>16330434
Creating a totally different personality to cope with it doesn't sound THAT outlandish. Then you'd even have a free reveal about how broken he is, so there will be some sympathy without taking away any of the dickishness.

>>16329942
>What the hell happened
Video games. Authors are trying to appeal to a youth that predominantly spends their time playing games. Even fiction in the vein of Harry Potter and Percy Jackson seems to be dying off a bit

>>16329941
Why not write for the sake of art?
Because most of us are not privileged enough to be able to sit around and write prose that only a couple hundred people would appreciate. Being able to write something that sells is necessary if you want writing to be more than a hobby

>>16329942
>>16330520
SAO, and Re:Zero, then Konosuba and the avalanche of other isekai that followed suit on the genre. Kids watch those and get inspired to write their own isekai on it, which is often more than not also rpg in the style of SAO.

>Can't sit at a desk and write
>Can sit on a sofa/bed and write

Why am I like this?

>>16330795
Go find your bulgiest dragondildo to sit on and start writing then

This thread is useless.

>>16330966
What's considered useful for you, anon?

>>16331141
A beautiful tanned single mother of one who knows how to maintain a well kept lawn.

>>16330741
I'd go even further and say that they want to replicate the Narou phenomenon here in America with their shit and hit it big. After all, if something as shitty as that smartphone isekai story hit it big, why couldn't they? It's sad. Most of them are probably high schoolers with no prospects or young men stuck in a dead end job.

>>16331141
Don't call me anon.

how do i write a book

>>16331322
One word at a time.

>>16331196
Isekai I can understand, but what the hell is up with that dungeon core nonsense? What exactly spawned the idea of a narrative about a sentient dungeon, and why is everyone trying to replicate it. I remember reading the reviews on one of them and people were talking about it like it's some well established and storied genre

>>16331274
are you okay, anon?

>>16331274
Okay, anon.

>>16319915
How do I get on the path to writing better? Both for essays in school, but also for being a better communicator. Might also be interested in doing some technical writing too.

>>16331672
By doing and consuming the work of those who have done and done well.

>>16331796
that's pretty vague

>>16332491
We should put this in the OP:
>just WRITE

>>16332491
Maybe, but that's the best advice someone can give you. People in the past were so good at writing letters and essays because it was something they did constantly. Getting good at anything could be accurately summed up with "just do it a lot."

>>16331672
You learn by doing. There is no other answer. It's kind of a variant of "fake it until you make it" more like "try until you reach the sky." All learning and progress is exacted through a systematic process of success and failure.

>>16324020
You seem to have a good grip on the concept of reading to write better. I’d argue that quality writing typically operates on three levels: textual, supertextual, and subtextual, ranked in order of importance.
Textual: the basic story. Plot and characters. (exp. Animal Farm is a book about animals taking control of their farm with disastrous results)
Supertextual: the theme or concept which the author is attempting to address with his work (exp. Animal Farm is a metaphor for the Soviet revolution in Russia)
Subtextual: minor issues of word choice or imagery which the author uses to strengthen the bond between the textual and supertextual levels (exp. Orwell uses Boxer as a stand-in for the common laborer, but at no point does he outright say “The horse, Boxer, was a lot like the common laborer. His only desire was to do his job well for decent wages, without much understanding of political theory”)
I chose Animal Farm for my example because it illustrates the order of importance. Even if you know nothing of Soviet Russia, the story is still enjoyable. Even if you never bother to make the connection between Boxer and the working class, his fate is still tragic. However, all three levels are interconnected and each serve to enrich the story while the story enriches them.

How much should one prepare a story? Do you guys have better success just making it up as you go or by planning every plot point meticulously? Also should one worry about a theme for his story before coming up with a suitable plot or should one decide what the setting and plot of the story should be first?

>>16333288
My process:
>something triggers an interesting image or idea
>it gets stuck in my mind and I begin considering myself or a specific type of person interacting with said concept
>for instance, what if someone who lived alone came home one day to find an unfamiliar crate in their living room with no explanation? what if time police existed, but they existed entirely in the present with no way of communicating with the past/future?
>start writing the story, usually with a focused beginning and middle
>make up the end as I go along
>finish rough draft, go about my daily life
>as I think about the story, more esoteric considerations like “theme” begin to make themselves apparent
>revise the story to reflect said theme and polish up the language
You’ll note that I said that I make up the ending as I go along. I’ve gotten three “enthusiastic rejections” from various publications this way, and the rejecting editor usually says my stories need a real ending. I tend to agree, most of them end with the main character facing a life-changing decision with no good choice.

>>16329663
>>16330000
So what other sites should I post my story on if it's a traditional grim dark fantasy?

Scrapped at 4000 words in, but started something fresh, something hot, it will really get the people going

>>16333288
I'm not sure of if you can be rigorously precise about it or if there is a definite objective answer.
I find myself capable planning the story in my mind. I also believe in serendipity and that trying to over-specify every detail chokes out creativity.

I do believe that in general the more complex a story the more one should outline it proportionately. Just keep in mind that the outline is a guide and appendix, not an inflexible doctrine to which you have to follow every point like a blueprint. If you do that you will lose spontaneity and die out.

>>16333545
>>16333744
Whenever I get an idea in my head it's always a theme that interests me rather than a setting or plot, I feel like focusing so much on theme would lead to an extremely pretentious work with very little substance. Any tips on how to be more creative with the substance of the story?

>>16333788
I'm a bit similar actually. I think of stories as essentially semantic objects. They are "about" something. A theme is a general cohesive category that aligns and assembles all the elements of the story. To think on the level of themes is to think on the level of a poet, to envision on a primal, fundamental plane rather than to commit to an overly restrictive rationality.

My (limited) advice to you would be to think of your story as an already fully completed, but submerged or buried structure. You play the role of an archaeologist, questioning and probing and investigating it, uncovering each of its artifacts piece by piece. A good archeologist keeps track of a ledger, noting each character, scene, stray fragment of dialogue the mouth of whom speaks it has not yet been found, and other tidbits and makes sure each crumb is meticulously documented. Don't look at your story like something that you invent whole cloth but something you are drawing out from some mystic subconscious pregnant void. Writers are midwifes of the unconscious.

>>16333788
Yeah, I get that sometimes too. Take for instance, I feel like there’s going to be a wave of nostalgia for the early 00’s specifically relating to our relationship with technology at the time (dedicated devices for each purpose as opposed to smartphones doing everything, Internet as a diversion from daily life as opposed to a core feature). This subject fascinates me, but whenever I try to come up with a good story featuring this type of thing my mind blanks out. I’ve resigned myself to waiting for someone else to do something with it and then enjoying whatever they come up with.

Printed out a short story (posted a few threads ago).

https://archive.is/u8uky#selection-2001.0-2007.26

So learning to write well is like learning to draw well?

>>16334073
Yes? Why would it be different. They're both creative skills that require a ton of practice. The only difference with drawing and writing is that it's easier to see improvement with drawing

>>16333788
>>16333896
i agree mostly and im the same way, but im not so sure it's a totally poetic vision, i think, the theme-attachment, because i cant help but see that as sort of crutch for allowing the kind of unconscious, indescribable beauty that saturates art. in other words i have a hard time mediating theme. i like the idea of Negative Capability, that is
>Negative capability was a phrase first used by Romantic poet John Keats in 1817 to characterise the capacity of the greatest writers (particularly Shakespeare) to pursue a vision of artistic beauty even when it leads them into intellectual confusion and uncertainty, as opposed to a preference for philosophical certainty over artistic beauty.
which almost seems antithetical to any guiding principles, but can't be true (?) because obviously 'speare isn't devoid of themes. but again i dont know how you mitigate the two

>>16333788
>>16333896
>>16333931
I find myself of the opposite end of the spectrum where all I get in my imagination is specific scenes and plot points, but no overarching theme or plot. Any help?

>>16319915
There's an old shitty fanfiction I started writing six years ago, and I recently re-read it and realized it's much better than I'd remembered, and I have a strong urge to continue writing it.

It's a Worm fanfiction where minor events in the protagonist's early life results in them having a different superpower than normal, which ends up having a butterfly effect on the general plot of the original story.

Should I?

>>16334336
Yes, also post links.

>>16334336
Absolutely, it's better to add something to this world than nothing at all.

Whats the name of your short story?

>>16334448
George

>>16334448
Shattered Realms

>>16334174
>to pursue a vision of artistic beauty even when it leads them into intellectual confusion and uncertainty
Isn't that only logical? There is no certainty in life and nobody knows shit, why wouldn't a work reflect it instead of pushing through with a theme?

How do I write poetry?

I have a contract with an indie publisher and have published four novels and five novellas. Here to answer any questions about writing or the publishing industry.

>>16336881
Cogratz, mate.

How long did it take? Did you have connections that helped you in? How important is that the work fits to the market aka. how likely is it for a publisher to take a chance on something truly fresh? How important is social media presence? Do small publishers even give advances? Any other sort of support?

How to write a good time travel plot?

Someone please give me a better song title than Naked Artefact

>>16336108
Open the floodgates of your heart and let all that is within flow out of it onto paper.

>>16336908
Thank you. I wrote one short story (published in a small magazine) and three short (and quite bad) novels to completion, over three years, before I submitted to the publisher. During that time (and for many years before) I soaked up as much knowledge as I could about writing and the industry, through podcasts, interviews, and so on. I had no connections and got interest from three publishers. The one I chose puts a lot of effort into audiobooks, which is a booming market.

Social media presence doesn't matter as long as it isn't politically incorrect or could cause a headache in any way. The manuscript is paramount. Of course, if you have a large following on a social media platform, that can help. Small publishers can give advances, but not all do so. No other form of support.

Writing to market is extremely important, but it can and should be done in a fun way (for the writer) that isn't brutal and soulless. For example, like a carpenter who takes pleasure in crafting a chair for a customer that they would not want for themselves, but they still appreciate and understand why the customer wants it and enjoy the beautiful process of building it, while also using the opportunity to develop their skill as a carpenter.

Publishers want 'the same but different.' It has to be a fresh take, concept, theme, set of tropes within a popular structure they believe they can easily sell. It has to be different enough to be exciting and familiar enough so the reader feels safe buying it (it will meet genre expectations to a minimum standard.) For example, think of all the different types of cake. They are all cake and the same in a fundamental sense, but they can be wildly different in structure and flavor. After execution, nailing concept and tone are probably the most difficult and important tasks for a writer.

>>16337055
What would you have told yourself when you first started to speed up your progress to now?

>>16337055
Writing is mostly just talent, right?

>>16336932
You don't. Just don't. Time travel, time loops, and body-swapping are the tags that immediately tell you the story is going to be terrible shit

>>16337098
1. Accept that I'm a bad storyteller and writer (this is normal. Why would I be anything else starting out?) and grind writing every day, even when I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing and it's shit. I eventually got there but I approached it thinking what I was writing should be high quality and was greatly discouraged when it wasn't. I had hubris when I should have been humble and taken joy in early progress. Before I began the grind, I wasted time on...

2. Stop writing down world building ideas, outlines, and obsessing about them. Ideas are easy as hell. Execution is all that matters and the heart of the story is figured out as you go. You want a minimal plot structure and a grand vision of the story's tone and emotions. But most importantly...

3. Become a better technical writer ASAP. By that I mean, you should be able to work as a high-level copy editor. I graduated with honors from a top university, yet looking back on it, my basic writing skills were severely lacking. Without this, you're not able to express the story, no matter how amazing the concept. It's like trying to draw a grand painting that is sharp and clear in your head but having no clue about brush strokes. It's a frustrating, demoralizing process and the product looks like shit.

And then a million things about storytelling that I couldn't have known then but I do now. Most important among them, stories are about internal desire and emotions. There needs to be tension on every page, and for that you need characters that deeply care and have goals. It doesn't matter how mundane the issue is, but rather that the character cares about it passionately and would sacrifice for it (what passionate means.) Also, readers want to fall into the story. Don't skimp on details. It may feel like fluff to you, and you want to race on with the plot, but the small details add emotional weight and familiarity between reader and character and reader and scene. They give milieu.

>>16336932
Watch Primer, The Girl Who Leapt Through Time and Back to the Future trilogy and play Steins;Gate until you have everything memorized.
Then figure it out.

>>16320234
>*shoots disabled Iraqi orphan in the face*
>...yeah, civvies just don’t get it

>>16337354
lol

>>16337189
>Become a better technical writer ASAP
How do you actually do this? It doesn't seem like putting nose to grindstone would actually work for something like this, but that you need some external input and guidance (beyond just reading fiction).

>>16337189
>Become a better technical writer ASAP. By that I mean, you should be able to work as a high-level copy edito
How to do this? Thanks for taking your time, btw. Congrats on the books.

>>16337184
It can be done anon.
>>16337250
Already watched primer, currently studying the chart, I'd disagree with the other choices though, they don't really play with the concept, maybe Tatami Galaxy? Heinlein to, still, yeah I have to get used to thinking about this, anything else?

>>16336963
To the girl with the almond eyes,
shaped like a squash, with your cantankerous thighs,
whose elongated trunk, and elegant tusks are hard to deny.
To suckle the sweet nectar, for which your eight udders do supply,
would be but an unachievable dream.

First attempt ever.
How did I do?

>>16337420
>>16337428
Choose a popular book that has a writing style you admire. Type out three pages from the book at random exactly as they appear. Find the patterns in punctuation placement, the rules the author follows. Understand the logic behind their placement, how they create flow and aid the mechanics of reading. This is now your style guide. Everything you write now adheres to those rules. I recommend starting with a rather strict style and learning to loosen it up over time.

Another method is to do the above but don't stop at three pages. Type out a chapter, half a book, a whole book exactly as it appears, in order to drill the rules into your head. Reading passages out loud, taking the pauses the punctuation called for, also helped me.

How to make most people relate to a stalker mc?

>>16337450
>It can be done anon.
I've never seen or read a time travel story that didn't have massive plot holes, and where time travel itself wasn't more a magical plot device than anything based on science. Either you handwave it as comedy or embarrass yourself.

>>16337701
primer? all you zombies?

>>16337709
>all you zombies
Isn't that the one where the dude goes back in time, to become a woman, and impregnates himself, while also giving birth to himself?

>>16337250
>recommending movies instead of books
It's obvious that you hate writing and are just doing it because you can't make a movie or anime.

>>16337721
he was a woman first but yeah, that one

>>16320037
Sorry mate I got bored reading your description half way through

>>16338067
You could've just said you didn't like the idea like this guy >>16320047. Why do people on /lit/ have to actively put each other down?

>>16339101
Because most writers on this site are bitter because their own writing isn't going anywhere. Your story idea could be interesting, but it sounds like something that would be incredibly hard to pull off well

>>16319915

someone here shared a good resource about writing agents before, but I can't find it. I'm finally finishing a project I'm going to try to get published.

>>16337659
IIRC Hunter S. Thompson would type out entire books to learn their style. I've typed up some chapters from books that I like, but I've found that just paying attention to sentence structure while reading works better for me

>>16339112
I'm not the anon he was replying to, just noticing that people in this thread, the crit thread and /lit/ in general (and /ic/ as well) have a crabs-in-a-bucket mentality. I know part of it is just half-ironic and trying to get (you)s but you'd think that struggling artists would empathize with each other having been through the same experience themselves.

>>16339101
>You could've just said you didn't like the idea
He did, fuck off

how do I pander to a female demographic?

>>16339234
Go on Wattpad and check out the most popular works. There's your answer.

>>16339151
I've commented on lots of posts in these threads and have been admittedly harsh with my feedback, but not because I'm somehow bitter, failed, stuck, ironic, psychotic, or whatever.

My philosophy is simply that you get what you ask for. If you post a sample of some half-assed, aimless stream of consciousness that you didn't bother to proofread or edit, or even read through once after typing it, and ask for opinions, then of course I'm going to be direct with my opinion and say you wasted my fucking time.

On the other hand if someone posts with a humble attitude, says he did his best and asks for ways to improve, I have no reason to insult him, but will try to help as well as I can in kind. Simple as that.

>>16339256
Harry Potter x One Direction fanfic?

Has anyone doe a Nile and Neville yaoi yet?

>>16337658
show his just an average joe with a sickness

>>16339256
only early teens use wattpad though. Didin't all the adult women run off to AO3?

>>16339234
Write a female MC that rolls her eyes at every third line of dialogue

How do I describe an encounter with female muggers without abusing cliches?

>>16339404
Rape.

My grammar is shit and I don't care. I literally only care about the story and what it means.

>>16336881
Congratulations. Have you been able to quit your day job and devote your time to writing?

>tfw really involved gf
Don't wanna say clingy, cause we really are in love.... but asking for 2 hours every night to write is really difficult because I get home at like 6:30, eat dinner, and by the time I'm done it's usually 10:00 - 10:30 and she complains she hardly sees me throughout the week.

>>16336881
How did you get in contact with the indie publisher? Did you just literally email every publisher you could find on Google until one responded?

>>16339502
Just set aside at least one night during the week to hang out. Watch a movie with her or something if she likes doing that. Being in a relationship with another person requires sacrifice. If she's asking you to hang out every single night, then yeah there's a problem and you can call her clingy, but wanting to spend a little time with your SO during the week is perfectly normal.

>>16339433
Thank you. Almost entirely. I take a freelance contract every couple of months. I'm also assisted by a small, completely separate passive income stream. I live comfortably on a low/middle income. It fits for now because my material desire is low, but I do aspire to earn more.

>>16339600
No, that would be a waste of time. Successful indie publishers target a niche audience. I selected the publishers before I wrote the first sentence of my book.

>>16339715
How did you find and select the publishers?

>>16337189
>3. Become a better technical writer ASAP. By that I mean, you should be able to work as a high-level copy editor. I graduated with honors from a top university, yet looking back on it, my basic writing skills were severely lacking. Without this, you're not able to express the story, no matter how amazing the concept. It's like trying to draw a grand painting that is sharp and clear in your head but having no clue about brush strokes. It's a frustrating, demoralizing process and the product looks like shit.
I'll never be able to get to this point; I barely know my way around a semi-colon.

>>16319915
I want to write about a man who realizes in his 20s that he has ASPD

>>16339895
whats ASPD

>>16339904
red

When writing about Philosophy, how dense and formal should a writer's prose be? Is writing in a way that is super heavy like Heidegger the way to go, or is writing in a conversational, Socratic format best to get published? Should I just invent a click language and write like a retarded scizophrenic like Land?

>>16339270
I intend to sort of idealize it (but show him getting over it), is that the right way?

I got a problem. While doing menial tasks at home and listening to music, I imagined an interesting sci-fi story very visually, like in a short film, and was captivated by the novel ideas of this alternate world and these people in it; however coming to write it proved impossible, since I now couldn't wave away detailed information and rely on a camera to simply be an uninformed observer.

In film the audience doesn't know any more than what they're shown from a third-person perspective in interaction between characters, but writing the story from one of the characters' perspectives would necessarily require me to invent and explain scientific terminology, world history, have the character make mental references to others, expand on throw-away phrases etc.. The ideas that I liked, I liked them when I imagined scenes on a screen as an observer, not written verbosely. In short, I have (possibly) a screenplay rather than a short story, but I want to share the idea I had with others.

Anyone ever had this happen to them before, where you imagined a story in a different medium and found it hard to write down?

>>16340393
I kinda envisioned mine as a anime and struggle a bit with scenes playing out, yeah

>>16340393
>>16340422
A book can do so much more than straight prose, why get stuck on the formalities of literature. Use pictures with descriptions, maps, diagrams, comic strips whatever you need to convey your ideas to its full extent. Dont let convention limit the way you tell your narrative.

>>16340025
Rule number one in the study of communication and rhetoric, KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. If you are trying to posit a cutting edge philosophical revolution in reaction to another primary source, then you need to use dense language to articulate exactly the thing you want to say, but if your audience is laypeople then you should write in a more normal way, otherwise their eyes will glaze over and you'll alienate them.

>>16340025
Depends on the niche you're attacking, along with where you are. In general, North American universities hail from the analytic tradition; prose is kept simple and important terms are clearly defined. But if you're planning on submitting to a journal that follows the continental tradition, feel free to get poetic, engage in free association, make grandiose statements.
As for the Land route: that's an entirely different one altogether. Your goal, should you choose to pursue that one, is to make yourself into the philosophical text. Engage in wild PR stunts. Build up a brand. Network with "underground" communities. Yes, this all sounds like soulless VC-speak, but in a soulless VC world, everything does.

>>16340440
Well, I'm no good at anything but writing, I can't draw to save my life and the ideas I have in my head deserve better than an mspaint webcomic look. Prose and verbiage could get me there but it's translating them from movie-form that's difficult.

>>16340393
I'm not a writer neither. I only ever wrote some stuff in my "diary", but a few days ago while trying to fall asleep I was bored and tried to describe what I'm seeing and wrote this:

>The great windmill turning it's wings heavily and patiently is suddenly burned to the ground. Flashing images of order and destruction are just preparation for what's to come, and violently. Being up close to the river's loud water, or maybe being submerged in it. It's hard to tell without feeling the wet sensation. Turning around from behind the mill, on the opposite side of the river is a thin forest. The sight only stretches along the running river infinitely, but inland it's in a shape of some eerie valley. A barefoot person in a straw hat is walking along the river, reflecting. He is an ordinary man, with brown, short hair, wise, pear-shaped face and cream-coloured skin. The person is of average build, but he has taken an awkward, almost womanly position. It's rather funny. With hands behind his back, he marches patiently, gazing at the soil before him. At the right...

It's probably terrible, but I saw it from the perspective of the ghost, in a "bugged" world, where the windmill was both built and destroyed and had 0ms delay between infinite repetition of the two states, and I just wrote how I saw it (well, I tried my best, but there's always some discrepancy)
The point I want to make is, just write however you want, just try to get your image across to the viewer. You can do that from any side you like, like you were flying in a world or were watching it through the character's eyes. There are no rules

He turned and strode toward the worn steps leading up to the hospital. Evening approached, and the early sunset illuminated the face of the towering building. The whole picture glowed a deep orange and reflected its warmth on the cold, slate tile steps below, offering even to Sasha's face its own share of receding light. Invisible shards of black stone were embedded into the whiteness of the calcite arch and pale bricks above, and added a veil of brightness resting over the shadows of the ancient, sculpted relief. Sasha stopped for a moment, considering whether to imagine what was about to happen, and if the outcome were pleasant, whether to indulge in this fantasy, but he quickly decided against this, recalling his recent commitment to ending what he had long considered a bad habit and a symptom of his idiosyncratic - he insisted - lingering immaturity. But as he amused himself in that pride of having conquered himself and reached for the doors, they were swung open by two old doctors in ruffled overcoats. In debate over some esoteric case which had given them trouble that entire afternoon, they did not pause to look at the awkward youth they had just shaken. The chill of the indoor passageway drifted out like a ghost and caressed Sasha's face, and the trifles that had earlier given him escape and solace now exposed only dread.

Im taking all my class notes and writing myself a guide of the class for later

>>16339888
Most people have no idea how to use a semi-colon or that it exists. Barely knowing how to use it is proof that you can learn technical details.

>>16339790
Once I decided on the niche, I paid more attention to the popular books in it and, in doing so, found the publishers.

Which elements of storytelling theory is worth taking into account? Im not interested on the concrete formalities of good writing as in literature, just the universal underlying principles of the nature of narrative in all its forms.

>>16340753
Plot is just a bunch of things that happen. So what a story really is, and I'll just say it if you don't mind, really quickly, and then and then quickly break it down. Is that, a story is about how what happens affects someone who's in pursuit of a deceptively difficult goal and how that person changes internally as a result. And that what it's about, that something that happens, it’s the surface of the story. It's just the plot and story’s not about the plot.

In other words, the story is not about the plot. The story’s about how the plot affects the protagonists. Story is not about the external change. It's not about what happens, it's about why. It's about an internal change. And that internal change is how the protagonist changes.

I would love to punch in the face even harder is that notion of don't tell us what the character’s thinking. Don't give us an info dump. Yeah, don't tell us if they're just going down memory lane, but story lives and breathes within your protagonists, the way that they're making sense of what's going on.

Another thing that writers do on that level is they'll write very visually. In other words, it's as if we’re seeing it on a movie screen and we're not inside the characters at all. We're locked out.

>>16340916
Interview transcript. Best storytelling advice I've come across.

>>16340916
>The story’s about how the plot affects the protagonists.
>And that internal change is how the protagonist changes.
that's a really reductive take.
flat protagonist =/= bad protagonist. there are great stories where the protagonist is a fully realized individual with set ideals and the actual change you see happens to the people around him(usually as an effect of his actions)

You should also quit downplaying the importance of plot and external change, there's so much more value to a narrative than its underlying subtext.

>>16340753
instead of trying to operationalize things in terms of characters/setting/plot and thinking about act progression I find it a lot more useful to see really focus on desire vs conflict. Everything else will come naturally.

>>16340987
Not downplaying but putting in its place. There is no such thing as a fully realized individual. That would mean no conflict, no desire. Frankly, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

>>16341050
What I meant is that it's far from essential for a protagonist to go through an arc of internal change to have a good story. It's called a flat arc and it's not a bad thing, its an intentional format that works.

>>16320284
>A good majority of them go in there for benefits and money rather than actual true love for the country
If you think that's a current phenomenon then I've got bad news for you

Any good freeform tools to lay down and organize ideas? Like making diagrams and stuff? I use pen and paper and it gets messy really quick and I waste time remaking shit from scratch over and over because I cant readjust what I already set on the go

Preferably something not on the cloud.

>>16341362
MS Paint

>>16319915
Haven't read the whole thread but I was hoping to hear some info from more experienced anons on the following topic. If you've finished a book, where do you get it printed? I know of Amazon and IngramSpark but these don't seem to be the most cost effective, with a 400-600 page book sometimes costing 10-12 dollars to simply print a single copy. I know e-books are big on platforms but personally I like physical books and know many others do, was just wondering what is the cheapest way (that retains some standard of quality) to get a book around that length printed?
>tldr; where do you print your longer self-published books?

>>16339101
But he did. If anything a more detailed "I don't like this" is always better and gives you a better feel, whether it's your idea or anons preferences.
>>16339121
As in Manuscript Wishlist and Agent Query or something else?
>>16339234
If you have to pander, shit will likely feel too fake and turn people off. Just don't.
>>16339502
Had a similar problem. Now I don't have a gf. NO RAGRETS.
>>16341963
>400-600 page book sometimes costing 10-12 dollars to simply print a single copy.
Sounds pretty fucking cheap actually. That's why agents are so anal about word-counts and generally want stuff on the lower end.

>>16343030
My understanding is that if you submit a fantasy book that's less than 200k words they will tell you it's too short.

>>16343105
Just the other way around. For fantasy you have 100-130k. Anything more, and 90% of agents will tell you to fuck off if you aren't a big name. The other 9% might take it but tell you to edit it down and the 1% may give you a chance, and will drop you after they can't find a publisher after a few years.

>>16343119
Any proof of this?

>>16343131
I mean, you could just google.

https://www.writersdigest.com/whats-new/word-count-for-novels-and-childrens-books-the-definitive-post

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Lhye7SCTVuz34zPd9NHfR4uiiMv5PAAfwR9E8Iv65yc/edit#gid=0
Has some examples that go beyond 130k but they are pretty rare.

>>16320028
if you approach it thinking there should be any inherent difference between writing a male or female character then you will fail from the outset.

it's about the character, regardless of gender.

>>16320068
I like it up until the word 'dew'. Cut the rest.

>>16320999
Present tense or past?

Anyone else find themselves changing between the two seamlessly, and then on reading back, finding it less seamless...

>>16343227
I was writing a story in the present tense a while ago and found myself constantly slipping into past tense. It's treacherous

>>16343227
Past with present tense bits for first person cursive.

And yeah, at times it's tricky to get right as a non-native but that's what revisions are there for.

Anyone else here worried that they are never gonna write a book?

I spent all my time wageslaving and i have a lot of different ideas for novels

My mood keeps shifting what i want to write about but i do not want to write multiple stories at the same time

>tfw you realise a your "story ideas" are just concepts and premises
How do I come up with a full proper story from a premise?

>>16343154
What do the headings in that google doc mean?

>>16343963
>Anyone else here worried that they are never gonna write a book?
No. Writing books is easy. Getting the stuff published is what I'm starting to worry about after 12 rejections.

If your mind keeps shifting, either you're too lazy/afraid to commit or none of the ideas are worthy of a book yet. Somewhat related ....
>>16343975
You expand on it, add details and developments, and see whether it works as a story.

>>16343987
Which exactly? It all looks very self-explaining.

Well I'm going to work so I guess I'll post this. I wrote it last night:
The man and the boy arose at once like clockwork figures from their haunched bar stools and they made their way to the exit of the swinging doors swinging in the yellow light and the wind from the street and cool night air. The moon is shining dusty gray in the sky as they walk with their boots snapping on the wood planks as though they were walking on stands of glass.

Somewhere past the town over the bleaked mountains, a wolf howls madlike as a gunshot screams to the starless sky, a seamless obsidian sea swallowing the last vestige of sight from those dead or dying in the formless shadows. More yowls echo from the hills, quickly another and another, until a formed chorus of damned eidolons ring hallow.

And the man looks to the boy with his small black eyes like marbles sitting atop a flat and mud thick face. He smiles and nods his head. The boy stares silent.

Ay begga for a silver dolla ey? A thin man in tired clothes moans out as he suckles a gloss bottle. The man laughs and spits on him as they pass. The drunk yells out and bows his fists to the air above his corkscrewed head for a moment before falling his shoulders limp to the ground.

I think it's kind of shit, I usually just wing it when it comes to the general beats and story plot.