/lit/ - Literature

>>16309517
К

>>16309517
I wanna learn how to read

>>16309517
Cope for not bothering to read the classics lol

>>16309533
You haven't read them if you've only read translations—kiss.

>>16309517

Name one (1) bad translation, and explain why it's bad.

>>16309517
Donc vous parlez français et vous avez comparé disons Madame Bovary avec une traduction ? Ou êtes vous simplement un sac de déchets humain ?

>>16309553
every single P&V edition of Dostoyevsky

t. slav

>>16309561

Why are they bad?

>>16309517
>he doesn't read the introduction to the translation to get a feel for how the translator decided to go about translating the document
>he doesn't read the footnotes
>he doesn't read the edition with the original language next to the translation
ngmi to the max

>>16309575
>>he doesn't read the edition with the original language next to the translation
Why would you do this? If you can read the original, fuck the translation

>>16309575
>he doesn't read the edition with the original language next to the translation
peak midwit

>>16309555
J'adore comme le français sonne quand il est utilisé pour des expressions grossiers; il porte un grand comique effet, mais je sais pas pourquoi. Peut-être parce que c'est pas une langue avec lui je suis trop familiarisé.

>>16309517
Whatever you say, frogposter.

So do you expect me to be fluent in 20 languages?

>inb4 yes.jpg

>>16309517
I want to read many different literary works from many different origins. If in order to do that I had to learn every language proficiently enough to accomplish it then I wouldn't bother to put in several years of work just to read a handful of book.
I enjoy reading, not learning languages. It's something that some people find very pleasurable, but not me. If I can avoid a translation (I do it when it comes to English, Spanish and French) I'll do it, but if not I won't deprive myself of some literary masterpieces.
>ibn4 your not reading them, just the translators' interpretation of them
I'd rather assume that risk and not get a 100% authentic experience than none at all.

>>16309570
overly literal bordering on retarded and render the effect very stilted and perfunctory

>>16309517
we didn't all have rich mommies and daddies who could send us to private schools to learn a dead language like Latin, faggot

>>16309610
Yes.

>>16309584
>>16309589
It's commonly done with middle-English books like Cantebury Tales or Beowulf. If you can read the English on the left you can get a feel for the cadence of the original poem on the right.

>>16309561
essential slavcore literature?

>>16309623
And this is if you ignore the many cases in which the text has been unashamedly translated from a French translation.

>>16309595
Non je suis d'accord. Peut-être l'effet comique viens du fait que le français était pour un long temps lingua franca et donc la langue de la diplomacie. Fils de pute, par exemple, a un son beaucoup plus offensive que l'équivalent anglais. On dirait que la capacité d'expression d'émotion est plus forte que celle de la langue anglaise, tandis que l'anglais sert mieux à décrire des objets.

>>16309517
Et alors, posteur originale ? Êtes-vous ou êtes-vous pas une grosse merde inutile qui n'a rien a offrir ?

>>16309553
Wilhelm translation of Secret of the Golden Flower. Turns meditation exercise described by the text into a Chiqong-esque yogic practice.

It's like with Japanese anime. A word like "nakama" can simply not be translated.

>>16309939
possibly cringe but that netflix Show Aggretso's subtitles are translated completely different from how the translation for the dub. it's fun to just watch and see how the translations differ

>>16310060
Heh. It happens a lot on Netflix. Even with pretty mainstream shows like Castlevania I was scratching my head many times.

>>16309517
why does he have so many teeth

>>16310318
To eat you.

>>16309517
Post your work. Lemme see your translation job.

>>16309610

>>16310414
>tfw know 40+ languages

>>16309614
basically this

>>16310431
Is this you?

>>16309517
>tfw you learn that the iclandic translation of Dracula actually was a fanfiction that nobody noticed for 100 years

>>16312164
Seriously? Tell me more.

>>16312165
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_of_Darkness

>>16309517
some german idiot actually translated "toy poodle" into spielzeug pudel

>>16309553

>>16309625

>living in a country where ancient Greek and Latin aren't part of a public education

ngmi

>>16309517
I do it from time to time and in most cases it holds up just fine. The really bad translations are about as rare as the ones that improve upon the source material, so pretty fuckin rare.

>>16312192

That's disgusting desu

What genres of literature suffer the most from being translated and which ones are those that suffer the least?

>>16312195
>implying any language imparted on public school goes beyond the absolute bare minimum skill level

>>16312219
The most, I'd say poetry. The least, I think essays. Essays are means of transmitting information, while in poetry and narrative to an extent a great part of its joys resides in their form.

>>16312192
lmao

>>16312326
>living in a country where you can graduate high school without being able to read literature in three languages

>>16309650
If you stopped being lazy and learnt Old English you could get a feel for the cadence of the poem at the same time as you understand it.
>>16309614
But why not anon? Language learning is a long-term investment, if you already know French and Spanish you could read in Italian, Provençal, or Portuguese within a year. The very idea of experiencing literary works from 'different origins' is sabotaged by reading in translation.
>>16309595
>comme le français
>>16312219
Any writer who cares particularly about his language will suffer

>>16309517
Yeah, I know. I'm translating texts pretty often. You've often gotta make a lot of sacrifices, particularly if doing it across language-families. Words don't necessarily have direct equivalents and saying whatever needs to be said the long way around, to get the meaning and intention correct, is often cumbersome and doesn't always convey the same idea, weight, or emotion.
I'm not surprised that stuff gets commonly fouled up, particularly if it's a profession and you've gotta process loads of texts constantly to bring sufficient bread to the table.
Dumb frogposter, still.

Much have I travell'd in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-brow'd Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He star'd at the Pacific—and all his men
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

>>16312192
kek, fucking roasties

>>16313268
What country is that? India?

>>16313583
>But why not anon? Language learning is a long-term investment, if you already know French and Spanish you could read in Italian, Provençal, or Portuguese within a year. The very idea of experiencing literary works from 'different origins' is sabotaged by reading in translation.
As you have pointed out
>comme le français
mon français n'est pas du tout parfait, ou pas même acceptable.
I still have a long way to go before I can read comfortably in French. I try, but it's still hard. Last book in French I read (Michel de Montaigne's essays) I read translated because I didn't dare tackle 16th century French.
Secondly, if it was a matter of learning the language alone then I would be disposed to do it, since I could give them use whenever I required them. However, the problem with speaking various languages is that they require diligence and maintenance. If a Portuguese or Italian literary work sparked my interest, I could invest myself in reading them just fine. But if they don't, I might find myself discouraged to keep up with those tongues, and once the need to use them popped up again I'd be distraught to find out that I had lost my ability to read them.
There are people who truly enjoy the act itself of speaking another language, and will find any occasion to indulge in it. I am not like that; if the content doesn't fill me with enthusiasm, I'm not too keen to go look up some news article or something of the sort just to keep up.
My field of usage is contained to daily life, the Internet and literature. I have been able to exercise without much issue my Spanish and English in both those fields, but still have trouble integrating French into my life beyond its practice. If on top of that I had to add one, two or even three more languages then my daily routine would consist of nothing but trying to keep up with them.
I've been to /int/ and other similar circles, and I know that there are people who derive immense pleasure out of their daily study of languages they already know and of those they have yet to fully learn. That makes them happy, but I would find such a routine strenuous, stressful and unpleasant. At this time, three is as much as I can seem to handle.
Finally, what about those other languages that would require an immense investment of time and effort, such as Japanese or Russian? I have lying around a translation of The Gambler; should I throw it away and put 4, 5 years into studying Russian, just so that I can get the real experience? It's just not practical nor inviting to me.
If you can handle that kind of commitment, and your passion for literature drives you to such lengths, then you have my respect. I'm not being ironic here; I'm kind of envious, actually.
But for now, just barely managing to read a short novel in French provides enough satisfaction for me. Maybe on the long term I'll try to pursue other tongues, but for now, I'm good.

>>16313870
Not to play le edgy 4chan psychologist anon, but it does sound a lot like you’re telling yourself you wouldn’t enjoy language learning. But as a hobby there aren’t any stakes to it. You don’t have to worry about wether or not your French is acceptable because you’re not speaking or writing with it in a substantial way. On the basis of slow but eventual improvement you don’t even have to worry so much about understanding whatever you’re reading. That’s the thing about your copy of The Gambler. Classics are classics because they’re eminently rereadable. It would be the opposite of a bad thing if you were to read it in translation now and then again in Russian down the road, it’s not a one and done kind of game. Same goes for Montaigne (who has modern French editions btw) and for any other author worth reading. I don’t want to tell you what to do but try and apply the same logic to your circumstances now. You already read in certain languages, which you must enjoy to some extent as bring languages, right?

>>16309517
i compared turkish and french translation of The Ethics of Spinoza,part 1 of the turkish translation had one axiom extra.It was translated by the Ministry of Education in the1930s

>>16314735
There is some truth in your post. The thing is that I am very meticulous and kind of hold myself to certain standards. As a result of having been very irresponsible in the past, as a way to compensate I began to try to be as active as possible, which led to me being rather severe on myself and reprimanding myself whenever I fall short of any task. That's why, despite -in theory- language learning being a project without stakes, I know it would have a negative effect of my psyche if I fell short.
I have a natural aversion towards compromise, and having to always make sure that I get x minutes or hours of practice a day of some subject gets me very nervous.
I try to do many things a day; exercise, read, study, watch some series or movies here and there... I'm very sloppy at handling my time, and if I wanted to add anything else to my routine, for example, writing (as I have failed at doing so far) I'll have tremendous difficulty incorporating it into my day to day.
Basically, I am someone who tries to put a high value to his time, and there are few investments as time consuming as learning languages. That's the reason for my reluctance in taking them up.
Maybe, with age, I'll become wiser and less of a neurotic about this, and perhaps be able to pull it off. Portuguese, by a simple matter of proximity, is a language I would like to learn some day. The thing is that I want to avoid stress as much as I can, and at this moment the prospect of trying to master another language while I'm in the process of struggling with another one. I don't trust my intelligence enough to learn two tongues at once, when I am barely keeping up with the one.

>>16315084
>and at this moment the prospect of trying to master another language while I'm in the process of struggling with another one
*seems rather overwhelming.

>>16309517
The Three Musketeers
>Original French: "écu" (coin of the Kingdom of France, containing about 3.2 grams of gold)
>Literal meaning: "shield" (from Latin "scutum", cognate with Spanish "escudo", progenitor of English "escutcheon")
>Word chosen by the translators: "crown" (contemporaneous coin of the Kingdom of England, containing about 2.1 grams of gold)
It's just unacceptable. "écu" is not "couronne", and "shield" is not "crown".

>>16309650
Beowulf is Old English

>>16309517
You are not discovering something new, anon: "translation is treason" is a common phrase. It sound better in spanish or italian: "Traducción es traición".

Writers of the early XX century did read lots of seminal works in their original language: german, latin, greek, english, french. A lot of them were traslators, also.

>>16314795
This is also a classic of brainlet translators: When they don't understand a phrase, they just skip it. I have seen this many times.

>>16315200
The eternal Anglo...

>>16315501
this is something i've noticed too