/lit/ - Literature

>>16296299
Yeah I think interpreting God as the creator of reality is fundamental. To interpret the Bible as God's inerrant word adds a complexity of issue (do I really on reality to learn math or the Bible). The church takes it one step further in complexity.
The church is for the church, not bad. The Bible is very helpful for understanding God but not entirely and to understand God more you need to understand reality more.

>Yet it seems to me that one to be a good Christian must be sincere and have faith
Being sincere and having faith means doing the rites and rituals. Holding the Right Opinions is pointless. God didn't say "don't think sin is bad", he said "sin is bad". Thinking right is irrelevant if you're acting wrong.

All religions are like this, this isn't just Catholicism. Protestantism is not an actual religion.

>>16296299
Vatican City alone proves that Christianity is fraudulent.

>>16296339
Rites and rituals lead to insincerity. These are wordly exercises. Being sincere and having faith comes above the rites and rituals. Why would God care about rites and rituals when he owns everything, gives everything? It's vanity to think rites and rituals are going to made God appeased in some way. It's a waste of time.

>>16296357
Rites and rituals are what God wants. How do we know? He said so. Don't like it? Don't be Christian. You're looking for an excuse to not have to actually do anything, you just want to pat yourself on the back for being a good person for holding the Right Opinions. The only one being insincere here is you, the one who has so little attachment to "faith" and religion that the very idea of having to actually DO anything in real life upsets you.

>>16296376
Okay citations please.

>>16296381
The Bible. Go read it. Or is that too much work?

>>16296389
Why are you being flippant? I'm asking a question and trying to learn. If you don't want to help go do something else.

>>16296299
The teachings of Christ can't be reconciled with a functioning society, that's the inherent problem. There have been attempts over the years to create a truly Christian society and they've all, in time, reverted back to pragmatic, real-world societies that pay lip-service to some of Christ's teachings. It's possible to live the way that Christ wanted, but it would be a hard, unhappy existence and the majority of people would escape from it if they had the chance.

>>16296466
checked.

>>16296299
What you are talking about is Gnostic Christianity. Down with the Ch*rch.

>>16296299
>Catholicism seems to me that if there were a legitimate religion of Christianity that would be it.
The Catholic Church is bigger than the Roman Catholics, but we'll talk about that.
>Logos
>rationality
Logos does not mean logic or rationality in Christianity, it is the same as the Word which is another name for Christ. Logos=/= Logos, Mythos, Ethos, get that out of your head because that was a stumbling point for my entry into Christianity.
>The metaphysical reality we know is Christian. Yet it seems to me that one to be a good Christian must be sincere and have faith.
Spot on, Westerners will never be able to adopt an Eastern worldview despite both of their mutual metaphysical tangiability, and true faith/institutions can be in opposition. The Church however is vital to Christianity. Christianity is unique to the other abrahamic religions, in that it offers physical gift from God to man; the sacraments and the ressurection. The ressurection has always been possible, but it was God's physical presence on Earth that showed us that there is life beyond sin. The Church acts as an educator, to try and do its best as an earthly institution to show people what this complex event means. However, the Church also is the bearer of the sacraments (Communion/Confession/Baptism), which allow a direct connection between the lay person and the physicality of God. Christ granted this gift to the apostles, who hand picked their successors as people deemed worthy enough to continue to spread the Gospel, Baptisms, Communion, grant Confession, and prepare souls for their eventual meet up with God. This is VITAL, as it demonstrates that Christianity is not just set of fragile esoteric traditions, but a tradition which grants immediate contact with God and survive worldly threats. There are specific people who are educated and trained in how to do this, and their lineage is traced through apostolic succession. The only legitimate Protestant priest was Luther, and now the importance of these sacraments and the lay education of Christian peoples is not well understood because of his fall away from the Church. Papal authority is flawed because Peter was not the only apostle Christ granted the ability to give sacraments to, meaning the apostolic "blood line" continues outside of Roman Catholicism in Orthodoxy. I consider both Latin Roman Catholicism (i.e. latin mass) and Orthodoxy to both be legitimate, however the Roman Church struggles with pedophilia from misinterpreting the role of the religious father as celibate. The faith exists, and yes the Church is worldly like all institutions, but it will prepare you like no other institution. Faith can exist outside of it, but without scaraments you are voluntarily putting your spiritual path on uneasy ground (a journey is easier with a guide). Try out both, see what you like, and learn the damn theology/history. Take your time, and read the Desert Fathers they're exactly what you're looking for. God speed fren.

>>16296668
I'm with you until you stress the importance of Communion/Confession/Baptism. It just doesn't click for me. I do think there is a need to be taught Christianity, but it needs to be done in the right way. I don't think the Catholic idea of Peter being the rock of the Chuch etc holds weight. It's wordplay and conjecture, and in that sense Talmudic. Again I don't want this to be the case. I want an easy answer to my questions, but I would be doing myself a disservice if I said I wouldn't be ignoring my doubts.

>>16296699
I cannot join the church again in good faith. I know too much about the origins of the Bible.

>>16296699
>the importance of Communion/Confession/Baptism
That's literally all of what Christianity revolves around, that's what Christ gave us and why God allowed His own cruxifiction. If you don't want the Sacraments then just be a Muslim, they do ok.
>It's wordplay and conjecture
Peter's chair still holds weight desu, it's just wobbly without all the other apostles. Apostolic succession is the reason Christianity has survived for so long, and is the only thing standing between a cohesive Christian worldview and every lay person pretending they have a new Gospel or preaching something that goes against Christ's teachings. We won't ever know everything, but the Church is the closest we get to knowing. Saint Iranaeus said it best:
>One should not seek among others the truth that can be easily gotten from the Church. For in her, as in a rich treasury, the apostles have placed all that pertains to truth, so that everyone can drink this beverage of life. She is the door of life.
Just talk to a priest and read instead of people on the internet.
>>16296745
>I know too much about the origins of the Bible.
The Church literally wrote the Bible

>>16296299
There is nothing about Catholicism that is biblical in nature. Christ taught that the meek will inherit the earth. If the Catholic Church Co bus anything, then it is not meek ambush any means. They also worship idols in the form of Mary, the archangels, and the saints instead of only worshiping God himself through his son Jesus Christ, our high priest and intercessor in heaven with the Father.

Catholicism is based largely on rituals. Communion, confession, praying the rosary, praying to saints/Mary/angels, all of which is unbiblical.

The Catholic Church is the way it is because of the Romans, who were pagan. Once Christianity became Rome’s state religion, they incorporated numerous heresies and pagan rituals into their church, and then had the audacity to exalt the pope above God by making him, a man, infallible.

>>16296299
I was considering writing a serious response on the difficulty of following the message of Christ, but after the whole "they wear fancy clothes" and "they have golden crosses", I'm done. There are thousands of Catholics religious out there, some of them with poverty vows for life, the gold is only to be shown by a few ones in the hierarchy. The Catholic Church has done for the poor what protestantism in ten lives; in pagan times if they caught a beggar wandering in the streets they enslaved him. And yes, the divine truth is meant to be divinely treated. You're another Judas complaining that the perfume for Jesus' feet should be given to the poor. There is a time for helping the poor, and there is a time for Jesus. There will always be poor, but there won't be always an occasion to publically and colorfully praise Jesus.

>>16296803
>Communion, confession
>unbiblical
Are we talking about the same Bible?

>>16296832
The Catholic version of those two is what are unbiblical. Transubstantiation, and confessing to priests instead of to God.

>>16296395
The quantity of smug, unhelpful pseuds on this board is something else.

>>16296299
Also
>But I can't reconcile the wordly nature of Catholics with the teachings of Christ
https://youtu.be/zubd0hnMmjg
Do you think this video is worldly?

>>16296841
Jesus gave the apostle's the authority to forgive sins. Jesus said the bread was his body and the wine his blood. I don't see how those aren't in the Bible. Maybe protestantism is actually the one missing.

>>16296819
This, the Church is wealthy not because it is vain, but because it wishes to beautify the monumental and sublime. It is better that the lay people have less wealth giving it as tithes to something greater which helps souls, than to bastardize wealth on billboard-Christianity.
>>16296852
This. All of you need to understand Apostolic Succession before you hurt yourselves, Christianity lives by its traditions.

>>16296299
Read or listen to the Desire of Ages

https://ellenwhiteaudio.org/desire-of-ages/
pdf and audio here

>>16297055
y