/lit/ - Literature

>>16279280
Ándale, muchachos!

The more I hear Maestro's hot take on Shakespeare, the more I think he's just cope.

Good morning, anybody knows where can I find Larva by Julian Ríos, I heard it's really complex and avantgard and I want to check it out.
He buscado por todo internet y no lo encuentro.

We should have a thread dedicated to foreign languages

I want to know if there is the equivalent of diary of a whimpy kid but with anime tits

Which edition should I get?

Where should I start with Gustavo Bueno?
>>16279771
RAE

>>16279280
tema del hilo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-HWcpiA8t0

>>16279280
When will they edit the complete works.
What the fuck is wrong with Pentalfa? They only published two in like the three years since they announced them

Regresamos?
Can anybody - I am begging, mind you - can anybody help explain Bueno's political stance. Particularly his pan-hispanism, it seems to me a vestige of falangist Spanish supremacy.
Also more broadly - what the fuck did he and now his cultists believe?

Post the charts we made during the last threads

>>16279771
Archivos, but it's expensive and difficult to find. Go for Cátedra.

>>16279731
What country are you from?

>>16279883
Spain. I say good morning independently of the time of the day

>>16279901
I asked because the FCE published an anthology of Rios which includes some sections of Larva. I own it and it's quite good, but I don't know how easy it is to get it in Spain. Unless you only want it digitally, in which case good luck.

>>16279280
Edición granujilla

- I -
Aquí me pongo a cantar
al compás de la vigüela,
que el hombre que lo desvela
una pena estraordinaria,
como la ave solitaria
con el cantar se consuela.

post yfw

Opinions on this guy?

>>16280117
Me carga; hace años que no veo sus vídeos porque son muy de nicho "homosexuales lo suficientemente educados para sufrir el problema entre entender que la subjetividad es un mito y no encontrar otro modo de reafirmación política porque el asedio reaccionario pelea desde el terreno de las identidades". Miento, el otro día vi que sacó uno sobre el fragmento de los teletubbies en CCRU0703 y no quise verlo, porque la última vez que vi algo hispano sobre ese libro, fue la primera plana de la traducción de Materia Oscura (editorial) que comenzaba con una cita a Death Grips. Dudo que este snob pueda exponer algo menos cringeante que lo que hizo Materia Oscura, y eso ya es mucho decir.

>>16280117
I don't mind him but his latest videos seem kind of rushed out. When he actually focuses it's fine even tought he's kind of cringe

>>16279280
(pbuh)

wasnt there a guide like pic related for spanish

>>16279686
Cope or not he’s (partially) right. Shakespeare is one of the greats but his level of importance is owed to political factors. English folk have shilled Shakespeare because of their lack of culture in contrast to continental Europe.

>>16280482
>his level of importance is owed to political factors.
Only to an extent. The fact of his influence among writers of all latitudes and the collective imaginary, and also his cultural impact outside the Anglo-American context, cannot be owed purely to imperialistic cultural propaganda. Maestro is right in pointing out the role of Anglo-American academic and political institutions in shilling him as unique and foremost among writers of all times and places, and in calling out the comparison between Cervantes and Shakespeare as faulty as it is presented (although it can still stand in other terms), but his criticism of Shakespeare as writer is very poor and narrow. Not to mention that one should be very skeptic of the evident nationalist source of his criticism. It is cope because he wants Hispanism to be the cultural and political center of literary studies, instead of Anglo-American academia. He's an imperialist himself.

>>16279771
If you can get Archivos get it but those are really expensive, I would recommend for RAE, from what I've seen it seems to be more complete

>>16280594
>from what I've seen it seems to be more complete
I thought Cátedra had more material? The essays that come with the RAE edition can be downloaded for free on the internet, but the notes of the Cátedra edition can't.

>>16280581
While I do admit he’s turboautistic when it comes to denying Shakespeare’s prowess I can’t help but agree with his more universal claims on literature. British literature is nowhere near Spanish literature; French or German as well for that matter.
He never claims literature should be universal, he claims Spanish literature is more worthy of being talked about than any other. If there’s a center, it should be a Spanish one not an English one.
You might be misunderstanding his denial of English importance for a more universal look on literature. That’s not his intention at all. According to Maestro, literature can and should be both measured and studied based on objective grounds and compared with one another. Unlike Harold Bloom, Maestro doesn’t believe literature is a product of the individual but of a nation, that’s where his fixation comes from.
I recognize I’m biased myself but I believe he is right. Anglo culture has not produced the same literary quality or quantity as Hispanic culture has. Latin America itself is more important than Great Britain on (objective) literary terms.

>>16279280
What are some comfy books for someone who's started learning Spanish? My mother tongue is Italian, and given how similar the languages are, I'm tempted to start with classics for teens, instead of children's literature.

>>16279740
Watamote.

>>16281023
How about reading Italian books in Spanish translation?

>>16281023
Read Horacio Quiroga, he's quite easy to understand

>>16280742
>He never claims literature should be universal, he claims Spanish literature is more worthy of being talked about than any other. If there’s a center, it should be a Spanish one not an English one.
I agree that the Spanish literary tradition should be much more discussed given its impact on the Western literary and philosophical tradition, but I completely disagree that it's more worthy than any other or that it should be the center of the canon. I'd argue that there shouldn't be a center, and that the problem of the canon is more complex than that. Literary canons should be viewed as living organisms, in constant adaptation and change, built through relations of influence between authors and traditions as well as common readership. But I suppose that's another topic.

>According to Maestro, literature can and should be both measured and studied based on objective grounds and compared with one another.
Admittedly, I might be misunderstanding his approach since I'm only working from his Cervantes vs Shakespeare video. But what does he mean when he talks about "objective" grounds? Does that have anything to do with Bueno's philosophical approach?

>Unlike Harold Bloom, Maestro doesn’t believe literature is a product of the individual but of a nation, that’s where his fixation comes from.
I'd say that it comes from both in different measures depending on the case, but I see where he's coming from. I suppose I dislike his chauvinism because he's perpetuating the very system he's criticizing. I'm not a Bloomean, btw; while I appreciate aspects of Bloom's theory of influence, I take it as a starting point instead of a final critique; and the rest of his writing post-Anatomy of Influence is either ideological drivel or super personal essays and polemics that shouldn't be read as serious academic criticism.

>Anglo culture has not produced the same literary quality or quantity as Hispanic culture has. Latin America itself is more important than Great Britain on (objective) literary terms.
Honestly, I think that's up to debate, and it becomes fuzzy when one starts considering "Anglo" culture to be only English instead of Irish and American too. Even Maestro's chauvinism seems to consider Hispanism to be eminently a Spanish phenomenon except when its former colonies flatter Spain, not unlike wht the Anglo-American empire historically has done. In the end, the polemic from that video seems to be a dick lenght contest, despite Maestro's exaggeration that it's a matter of State (kek). And that's my greatest quip with him. He's just another authoritarian academic, on the opposite ground from Bloom, but in essence no different.

>>16281031
I thought about reading translations, but I'd rather read original books. Surely there is more to Spanish literature than Don Quixote, right? R-right?

>>16281120
I just got "Cuentos de la selva". Do you recommend any specific works from him, or more authors?

>>16281476
Read "Cuentos de Amor, Locura y Muerte"

>>16281486
And about more authors, Ernesto Sábato and Onetti are easy to read too. Don't read Benedetti, he sucks.

>>16281494
Also check out Adolfo Bioy Casares and his wife.

Reminder not to read Borjes in Spanish, that would be the same as reading a translation.
Read Borjes in English, as that is how he was meant to be read.

>>16280117
furro rojo maricón y pedante.

>>16281841
english was almost his mother tonge, he would just have written in english if that was his intention lmao

>>16279686
He has developed a criterion for literary geniality (unlike Ango literature departaments) and Shakespeare doesn't meet the premises. Sorry. If you don't agree with him you can always invent your own criterion where Shakespeare is proven to be above God.

>>16281841
Borjjjjjjjes.

>>16281990
but he did lmao, and then translated it to spanish

>>16282009
Citation needed

>>16282015
you said it yourself

>>16282009
I've heard long hours of his interviews and he's never talked about such thing, no one even asked him that

Actually, I was reading some story a few days ago and thought to myself "how the fuck do they translate this into other languages, it's so argentine"

>>16282023
arjentine*

>>16281996
Shakespeare needn't be above God. I'm not Bloom. But Maestro could at least be more honest and fair, but I guess that can't be expected from a coping destitute imperialist.

>>16282077
Ironically that you say so considering that Shakespeare's fame is largely due to imperialism.

>>16281476
Disregard the other guy. Read Cuentos de la Selva. It's literal children's literature, which makes sense when you start learning a language. Move on to the other one if you feel like it.

>>16280094
YO ONIONS TORO EN MI PAGO
Y TORAZO EN PAGO AJENO

>>16282128
>largely
That has been discussed above. But then you admit that Maestro replicates the very thing he criticizes.

>>16282276
Maestro isn’t criticizing the imperialism itself, it’s criticizing the way English literary dominance was achieved. It was not under aesthetic merit but through political work. If the English were as good as anglos claim, Maestro would not be against their cultural dominance.

>>16282308
based salamero

>>16282308
>Maestro isn’t criticizing the imperialism itself
>it’s criticizing the way English literary dominance was achieved
So, he's criticizing imperialism. All while being an imperialist himself. But his worst offense is dismissing Shakespeare on political instead of aesthetic grounds. He clearly isn't being objective himself, for all he claims.

>Why yes, I am the one that bumps the dead spanish literature general on /lit/, how could you tell?

>>16282020
So nothing then

>>16279280
What do you think of JV Foix? I just bought Las Irreales Omegas (bilingual Catalan/Spanish).

>>16279686
Is Maestro a meme or is he a real literary critic that's respected in the Spanish academia?

I find almost nothing about him on the internet.
He doesn't have a Wikipedia article about him.

>>16283470
He is just a meme. No one takes him seriously in academia but he says some things worth listening, although they are bellow are the rabble.

>>16283530
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCgurv2RNP0

Started listening to this and, 18 minutes in, he already seems better than most living literary ''theorists''.

>>16283530
>No one takes him seriously in academia
>he takes the academia seriously
You are either an academicunt or a commie. I think both

>>16279280
Why is Gustavo Bueno so unknown outside of Spain? Is he just a hack? Why are his work not properly translated so they can reach the wider philosophical community?
His followers hail him as the greatest philosopher in the last 100 years but his impact on the whole of philosophy is virtually 0.

1/2

So, Maestro's analysis of Borges looks pretty mediocre here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWok8oCqiLY

He seems to be demanding that poets should be philosophers. He completely misunderstands the role of literature. It is a very limited and poor standard, specially if you consider that his own philosophy - that of Bueno - seems to be entirely irrelevant to the rest of the world. I, for one, had never heard of Bueno.

He also makes mistakes in interpretation.
For instance, at around the 18-19 minute mark, he says Borges turns Spain into a mere literary idea by making reference to the Ulysses myth, because, as Maestro sees it, Spain is a political entity which he associates with the modern Spanish state. He calls Borges's reference to Ulysses ''poetic licence''.
What he ignores is that the state itself in large part is false, and it incorporates many invented traditions which help to shape its soul. A state, therefore, is something both real and mythological, and which can be both temporary and eternal. Borges here goes beyond the mere political conception of the modern state of Spain and enters into the atemporal elements - the very geography, the very array of associations which history, mind, and culture have connected to the concept of Spain -, thus reaching into the timeless soul of the Spanish nation - the only one that really exists, and that is going to survive even if the U.S. bombs Spain out of existence, just like Sumerian culture still survives. Maestro recognizes that nationalism is founded on myth, but fails to see that the result ends up being partially composed of myths too.
Also, the Ulysses verse is very interesting in the sense that Borges himself, in this poem, is like the Greek traveler visiting his mother, but in this case his cultural mother: Spain. Although Maestro keeps repeating that Borges's poetry is autobiographical, he never notices the subtlety and intelligence with which this autobiography is hidden behind the veil of cultural symbols, thus uniting the personal with the universal in one single verse through a duplicity of possible meanings.
At the minute 23 you can see why Borges irritates him: the great Argentinian happened to despise mediocre fleas like Maestro, who suck on the blood of major writers in order to craft themselves a minor name, and hope to be loved back, but are never corresponded.

>>16284272
He says Borges was an author of occurrences, as if this were a bad thing. In reality, most lyric poetry is about occurrences, because occurrences are what constitute our lives. If Maestro's life is empty of relevant occurrences, well, this is not my problem.
Then he starts rambling about how Shakespeare can't be used as basis to create a theory of literature, again as if this were a bad thing, when it reality it just shows how Shakespeare is so rich and diverse that he completely breaks Maestro's failure of a system, which can't even accommodate the greatness of Shakespeare - and I say this as someone who is not an Anglo, and who believes Homer, Virgil and Dante were greater writers than the English playwright.
I here remind you of T.S. Eliot, who, in attempting to define a ''classic'', started by saying that a definition of ''classic'' has to something that includes Virgil. Otherwise, it won't work. Maestro should have done the same, and started his theory of literature with the assumption that Shakespeare - as well as Homer, Dante, or any other canonical author - really is literature, whether you like it or not. Curiously enough, the other video I posted he criticizes the theoreticians (teoreticistas) for preferring their theories to reality, but Maestro himself is guilty of favoring his theory over the reality of the canon!

In the end, Harold Bloom is right: either you judge literature by purely aesthetic criteria, or else you descend into theory-based resentment and superficiality, which is what Maestro does, resentful as he is of the fall of the Spanish empire and the rising of the Anglo world. You can see this by noticing how Maestro's tone suddenly becomes more respectful of Borges when he starts commenting the verses in praise of the Spanish empire - he is clearly more interested in the political truth than in the aesthetic effect.

You can't judge literature by criteria which are external to the artistic enterprise. Judge it by aesthetics or else go judge sociological books, not literature.

>>16284272
>>16284281
This is your brain on academia, folks: mental gymnastics and screams into the void

>>16283719
Here in Brazil it's also similar. There's this guy called Vicente Ferreira da Silva who is considered a genius by his followers, yet is virtually unknown outside of Brazil.

If the guy is unknown outside of his native country, you can be pretty sure he is a fraud - or, at best, good but unoriginal. If there was something truly new and interesting, it would have been translated, just like Borges, Marquez, or Machado de Assis have been translated and recognized throughout the world.
Machado was born in a favela and is now taught at Harvard. Pessoa was a nobody, and now has conquered the world. Why? Because this is what happens to authors who are good, original, and interesting, no matter what their background might be. If it doesn't happen to them, chances are they're not good enough. Is this always the case? No, there are some authors who are indeed treated unfairly, but it's a good heuristics anyhow.
This is why I will never read either Ferreira da Silva or Bueno: I don't have any more reason to invest my time in their works than I have to invest it in the study of Scientology (which is more influential, by the way).

>>16284370
I am not in academia. I am a lawyer.
Maestro, however, is in academia, and it clearly shows. He can't escape the seduction of arbitrary classifications and empty theoreticism. He can't read like a passionate reader, like a *creative hedonist* - which is how poets themselves most often read -, but always has to insert his false and ridiculous pseudo-philosophical conceptions into his readings, thus seeing poems with the eye of (false) theory instead of using the ones that nature has placed on his face.

>>16284370
By the way, there is nothing more pathetic than a professor who despises the university system. He needs to put his money where his mouth is and become a full-time youtuber if he wants to be coherent and free of hypocrisy. Lots of people do it. Why can't he? Is he afraid of losing the security which is offered to him by...
... that very same university system?

I despise the university system too - as well as the whole rest of the current educational apparatus, books excepted. And this is precisely the reason why I abandoned my old dreams of becoming a professor. Indeed, becoming a ''critic from within'' is the last refuge of the vocationally incompetent.

>>16282440
He’s not criticizing imperialism, he’s criticizing political subterfuge making its way into literature

>>16283530
Not being taken seriously by the fucking academia is a good thing nowadays

>>16284953
>he’s criticizing political subterfuge making its way into literature
Then why base his entire critique of Shakespeare on political grounds instead of aesthetic ones? If the Anglo-American academia is guilty of shilling Shakespeare for political and ideological reasons, surely he should base his criticism of Shakespeare on aesthetic grounds to truly see whether he is a worthy author or not. But he fails to do that, because, for him, Shakespeare is not worthy from the start simply because he's not from Spain. The only real literary criticism of Shakespeare he produces is his use of madness and character, and his use of the supernatural, in comparison to Cervantes's, but that criticism crumbles the instant he claims that comparing Shakespeare to Cervantes is invalid. Not only that, but Maestro never takes Shakespeare in the poet's own terms. He must show how Shakespeare is not Cervantes in order to prove that Shakespeare is a poor writer, even a "polizón of the canon", something claimed in bad faith when Maestro himself doesn't define what the canon is. Plus, his claim that "there is no canon outside of the Western canon" is based on absolute ignorance of other traditions, exposing his unabashed chauvinism once more.

In the end, he is criticizing British imperialism and the abuse of cultural products in order to push an imperialist agenda... Because the Spanish empire never did that in the same way, and he wishes it had. You are right: he's not criticizing imperialism, because he is an imperialist himself.

>>16285056
>he should base his criticism of Shakespeare on aesthetic grounds to truly see whether he is a worthy author or not
he does, but you wouldn't know that off watching one video
>The only real literary criticism of Shakespeare he produces is his use of madness and character, and his use of the supernatural
yes
>in comparison to Cervantes's
his entire work is based on the field of comparative literature, what the fuck did you expect?
> but that criticism crumbles the instant he claims that comparing Shakespeare to Cervantes is invalid
nope. he simply states comparing one to the other is ridiculous because shakespeare is not at cervantes's level - take a wild guess why he does
>He must show how Shakespeare is not Cervantes in order to prove that Shakespeare is a poor writer
yes, because according to maestro, cervantes is the best, the one rule that should be used to measure anyone else's work. bloom does the same with shakespeare - there's nothing wrong with this, nothing at all
here's the thing: you can't comprehend, for some fucking reason - i sure hope it's baiting retards like me -, that maestro cant criticize imperialism without being imperialistic himself and, as he made so crystal clear, being literary imperialistic is his whole fucking point. his entire argument is "cervantes is a literary genius, shakespeare is not - the latter achieved his status through political shilling". i don't necessarily agree with maestro. cervantes is quite possibly the best writer of all times, but disregarding any author because he's not cervantes is retarded. but, if you didn't notice, maestro doesn't do this at random - he's doing it because shakespeare is considered the great and he isn't. gotta pair shakespeare with who he thinks is truly best to debunk that claim
>there is no canon outside of the Western canon
this one's true, though. anything else is trash in comparison.
>he's not criticizing imperialism, because he is an imperialist himself.
yes, it's amazing how you missed that for so long

>>16285149
>shakespeare is considered the great
est author

>>16280117
cringe

>>16285149
>he does, but you wouldn't know that off watching one video
Indeed. Good thing I'm not watching any more of his garbage analysis

>there's nothing wrong with this, nothing at all
There is when it clouds your critical judgement. It makes you think in ideological terms disguised as aesthetic ones. That's exactly where Bloom fails, too.

>this one's true, though. anything else is trash in comparison.
No, it's not, but that's not even what Maestro claims. He states that other canons *don't exist*, not that they are of lesser quality. And that claim is based on ignorance. Surely if they had written in Spanish or if they were former colonies of Spain he would think otherwise!

>yes, it's amazing how you missed that for so long
lol I've been saying that the whole thread, you're the one who missed my other posts >>16280581 >>16282077 >>16282440

>>16285265
>lol I've been saying that the whole thread, you're the one who missed my other posts
I haven’t missed a single one, that’s why I wrote that. Anyways, you’re trying to argue about a man’s work from a video you didn’t understand so that’s that my guy.

>>16285149
>his entire work is based on the field of comparative literature, what the fuck did you expect?
Oh, I don't know, to produce comparative criticism adequate for each situation?

>he simply states comparing one to the other is ridiculous because shakespeare is not at cervantes's level
Indeed he does, but then proceeds to say that what Shakespeare does is wrong *because* he doesn't do it like Cervantes. Thus, it's not a matter of quality, but of kind, and that how his criticism fails.

>>16285294
You're not making any sense now, but it seems we mostly agree on the topic. I'm only criticizing his take on that video, not his whole body of work. And as you can see, I've understood it all along, so that's that.

>>16285149
>this one's true, though. anything else is trash in comparison
If you honestly believe that then either you are fucking retarded or you have neevr read anything of value non western. Either of those means you should get the fuck off this board and go read more.

>>16284389
That's stupid, the fact that a writer or a philosopher is unknown outside of his country says nothing about the quality of his works. Schopenhauer dedicated his whole life to philosophy and he only got recognition in his later years. Gustavo Bueno was fairly popular while he was still alive, and died just a few years ago, he could easily get more popularity outside of Spain in the following years.

>>16285316
You haven’t understood jackshit, you dumb retard.
>he can’t criticize imperialism because he’s imperialist hurr muh chauvinism durr
Nobody can be this fucking stupid. You didn’t even understand his argument but got fixated on a minor point. There’s no way this isn’t bait.

>>16285333
Don’t get so worked up, Rajneesh. The western canon is comprised of over 2500 years’ worth of literature. No other culture comes close and it’s not even a fair fight. What are you going to do? Throw the vedas at me? They are overrated as fuck and Indian literature pales in comparison to the canon, vedas or not. Same thing goes for Asian lit, mid eastern lit, etc

>>16285546
I said that Maestro is an hypocrite, not that he can't criticize imperialism. You didn't understand what I was saying. You've baited yourself.

>>16285613
>not even a fair fight
well if the vedas is the only thing you know.

And who knows... if euros didn't burn everything they put their hands on. Even muslims did a better work preserving the greek works.

>>16285634
Not that anon, but you are the one that didn't understand. Maestro is not attacking imperialism itself, he's saying that Shakespeare owes his reputation to english imperialism. He never says that imperialism is bad or anything like that.

>>16285546
>There’s no way this isn’t bait.
>deliberately replying to bait

>oh no no you can't criticize Shakespearino and Borgerino.

both overrated fucks.
The emperor is naked lads.

>>16285670
>Maestro is not attacking imperialism itself, he's saying that Shakespeare owes his reputation to english imperialism.
That's what I've been saying the whole thread.>>16280581
And that's why I said he's an hypocrite: he's criticizing the use of cultural products for political reasons by British imperialism, while decrying that the Spanish empire didn't do the same.
Here >>16282440 I was replying to the other Anon, who said "Maestro is criticizing the way English literary dominance was achieved", which was through imperialism. And again, at the end of this post, >>16285056. That isn't even the main part of my argument, and the other anon became fixated on that. Obviously, he's Maestro himself, accusing me of doing the very thing he's criticizing. My other arguments show that I understood Maestro point and that his criticism of Shakespeare is poor.

>>16285613
You are a fucking retard. You know nothing about asian literature or you wouldn't say such embarrasingly stupid things.

If you were as well read as you believe you are, you would know that the Tang dinasty poetry encompasses beauty and awe in an unmatched way. Or how the haikus developed around the concept of mono no aware have shown us a such a unique and marvelous way of looking at the world and life itself.
But of course you don't know shit, you are just a rambling retards who thinks Maestro's system is any good, when even Bueno himself told him it had foundational flaws that cannot even be fixed.

Is there an "official" Spanish /lit/ discord?

>>16285743
Perish the thought

>>16283719
Latam continental p. professors are more interested in french theory and german idealism, phenomenology. Also, no one in Latam want to be part of "España", since nationalism is useless in intellectual terms, even tho, the Oviedo School has a lot of good intellectuals (maestro, bueno sánchez, camprubi, martin jimenez, don marcelino que habla como anciana, vidal peña, entre otras personas que se me olvidan en este instante).

>>16283530
Imagine being this retarded

>>16284272
I love how retards overrate Borges. He is god, yes; but not the genius your reddit brain think it is.

>>16285760
>He is god, yes; but not the genius your reddit brain think it is.

>>16285654
>if euros didn't burn everything they put their hands on
If your ancestors weren’t cucks but oh well

>>16285721
Gooks are soulless they can’t write poetry, don’t be silly

>>16285674
Can’t help myself

>>16285815
>euros calling other cucks

>>16285719
>while decrying that the Spanish empire didn't do the same.
He’s not. How dense are you? That’s what multiple anons kept telling you. Fuck.

What do you think about Ernesto Castro? Is he actually good or just a pseud?

>>16285815
>the 14 years old poltard ebin response.

>>16285815
You are so stupid you must be a nigger. There is no other way around it.

I hate this fucking midwit

>>16285838
He literally says that in the video, watch it again.

>>16285838
>>while decrying that the Spanish empire didn't do the same.
while lamenting*

>>16285874
Timestamp it you delusional fuck

>>16285856
>>16285850
>shitskins mad

>>16285897
Not doing your homework, kid

>>16285910
You were wrong, multiple anons told you so. Cope all you want

>>16285897
>Spaniard calling others shitskins
Comedy gold

>>16285914
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80ogZzp_ihc&ab_channel=Jes%C3%BAsG.Maestro
Here you go, kid. It starts at 24:07. Fuck you for making me listen to this idiot again.

>>16285953
But that's not what he says, he's refering to how neither the spanish monarchy nor the State made any efforts to "canonize" Cervantes, while the english monarchy and academia did with Shakespeare.

>>16285985
He’s a retard. I’ve tried to explain it to him already. He won’t budge. He literally timestamped his own rebuttal and acts as if he’s right. Can’t be helped.

>>16285985
That's what I said
>>16285719
>he's criticizing the use of cultural products for political reasons by British imperialism, while lamenting that the Spanish empire didn't do the same
I got mistaken and wrote "decrying" instead of lamenting, but my point still stands

>>16286003
Seethe and cope

>>16286013
Everyone is telling you you’re wrong lmao

>>16286031
And I'm not, like I've shown. It's hilarious because this anon>>16285985 literally said what I wrote and then claimed I was wrong. What gives?

>>16286049
You are not saying the same thing. If you can’t tell the difference, there’s nothing I can do.

>>16285685
If those are nothing, then I dont want to know what the rest are lmao

>>16285760
You literally called him ''god''.
You can't even diminish his value without providing him with a free apotheosis. This is how cursed and disgraceful Borges's critics are.

>>16285393
Look for the meaning of ''heuristics''.

>>16279901
Mi ancestro :)

Whad do you think about Augusto Monterroso? Currently reading Lo demás es silencio, and it's hilarious.

Let me just say that I didn't see Maestro make any arguments for his beliefs in the 1 hour and 37 minutes video of his that I watched in which he explained his theory. He made many classifications, trowed some insults, but I saw no real arguments. Not that I expected to find any, considering that he is a continental.
In his analyses of Borges I only saw some applications of his theories, with some hidden assumptions (such as that you should judge literature philosophically), but again no real arguments except for strawmen (such as comparing being a poet of occurrences with having a TV show or something - ignoring that there is a fundamental difference between living or showing occurrences, and deeply reflecting upon them).
It's funny, because Maestro says that Borges would be successful in television, but he himself is getting successful on YouTube. The only difference is that Borges was also successful in academia, in literary history and internationally, which Maestro will never be.

Anyone can make up an elaborate, systematic construct and start applying it in a dogmatic way. It doesn't take any intellectual rigour to do this. Michel Foucault, Olavo de Carvalho, and other well-known frauds have already done it, to loud applause and immense success among the intellectual rabble. But where are the real arguments?

Maestro's disciples seem to be similar. Look, no argument: >>16285685

Also, it seems that Spanish nationalists have a big inferiority complex towards England (the Armada was supposed to be invincible!) I knew it, but didn't expect it would have lasted so long, nor that it would manifest itself so strongly. Truly an amazing thing to witness.

>>16287124
>it seems that Spanish nationalists have a big inferiority complex towards England
>he thinks it’s about Spain and England and not about continental Europe being sick and tired of the (((eternal anglo)))
We never wanted anything to do with you people, fuck off already

>>16287124
PS: I don't think Maestro is actually a fraud. He seems to be very well-read and have some good things to say. Some of his Borges comments have been insightful (he really was a poet of occurrences - though I'd also add a little bit more to that). I still haven't seen his analyses of Cervantes, but they might very well be rather good.
However, I feel that Maestro tried to fly too high. He is not the Kant of literary criticism, nor will he ever be. There will be no Kant of literary criticism.

Also, systematic philosophy is a thing of the past. A philosophical system nowadays is a crazy thing. For one, you can't really make a credible system of reality unless you have at least a phd in Quantum Physics. Otherwise, you will probably commit some idiotic mistake here and there.
All philosophical systems of the past have been shown to be wrong, but people still keep insisting on making new ones. Such is the nostalgia of religion!

Philosophers like Hume, who were more famous for specific ideas and criticism (problem of induction, separation of ought from is, problem of causality), have shown themselves to be much more solid and survive much better than the big systematizers..

>>16287150
I am Brazilian.
I actually agree that Anglo literature is overrated. I have made dozens of posts in the past defending Dante's superiority of Shakespeare, and been heavily disparaged by Anglos for doing so (I don't regret it).
However, Maestro's system looks arbitrary and, to be honest, rather pointless. I don't see what it can illuminate or do, nor do I think that any great author or critic will be influenced by it.

>>16287169
I don’t think maestro has a flawless system but there are a couple of things here and there that work and should be taken into consideration. I do believe the state of current academia is beyond salvageable and we shouldn’t shit on rogue critics like maestro is and bloom was. If one cares about literary criticism, one must work with these people, exacerbate their better talking points and not discourage others from hearing what he has to say because of bad ideas.
For example, one of the key elements in maestro view is the comparative element. Something that has been lost for years now in current academic circles. That needs to come back. We had enough feminist/post colonial/marxist interpretation for a lifetime and then some

>>16287212
I agree. I actually deeply despise academia and am not a part of it. When I talk about Borges's reception in academia I am referring to serious academics only - there are still some, probably many in fact, though the majority is composed of political activists and anti-West agitators.

But I don't see how inventing elaborate closed systems has anything to do with combating the contemporary trends, which by the way often tend to show themselves in systematic form too (even the whole SJW worldview is a kind of very closed and primitive, pseudo-religious system).
I believe we should fight those trends with pure aesthetic analyses in the tradition of Harold Bloom or Ezra Pound, to mention two very different, but ultimately similar critics. There is no salvation for literature outside of aestheticism. It has nothing to do with truth or philosophy, but with pure enjoyment - the most superior form of enjoyment - of the beauty which has been passed on to us.

See how Borges himself, through his pure love of the great classics, has made more people aware of literature than Meastro himself has, and popularized many more unknown authors than Maestro ever will. How many people fall in love with literature after reading Borges, or fall in love with a new author that they first heard about in a Borges essay or story?
This is how you fight the new barbarians: with the spirit of Borges and Bloom, not with the spirit of those who wish to become the systematizers of something so wild and unpredictable as literature.
Literature is not protestant morality. It does not allow for the appearance of Immanuel Kant and his horde of Kantlets. A Spaniard, a countryman of the great Cervantes, ought to be well-aware of this.

>>16287277
I wholeheartedly agree. There’s not much I can say other than that. You’re one of the good ones, you beautiful Brazilian bastard.

>>16287277
Impossibly BASED post.

>>16287212
>For example, one of the key elements in maestro view is the comparative element. Something that has been lost for years now in current academic circles.
Comparative literature was all the rage a few years back tho, and it's still going strong. Are you in academia or just talking based on the outrage screencap threads on this site?

>>16287277
Refreshingly based

>>16287306
You can’t possibly believe comparative literature was the same a couple years ago and 100 years ago

>>16287321
That's not what I'm saying at all.

>>16287277
All of Maestro's army of faggots on suicide watch after reading this.

>>16286556
I mean, good, sorry.

>>16287277
>I believe we should fight those trends with pure aesthetic analyses in the tradition of Harold Bloom or Ezra Pound, to mention two very different, but ultimately similar critics. There is no salvation for literature outside of aestheticism. It has nothing to do with truth or philosophy, but with pure enjoyment - the most superior form of enjoyment - of the beauty which has been passed on to us.
Call us when you have read enough, so we can laugh together, since "aestheticism" is the maximum cope level of westearnism. Intellectual praxis is, and must be, categorical, since it is not based on "naturalistic truth", or reality, but policital discourse.

>>16280117
Pretencioso.

>>16287277
>my muh feelings decide what's good or not!
>noo you can't impose rational objective criteria for valuing things! everything has to be based on what I like!
Yes, let's go in that direction, wonder what will happen next.

>>16287542
>Yes, let's go in that direction, wonder what will happen next.
We all know: US simiocapitalistic shitstorm.

>>16287542
Aesthetic isn’t subjective

>>16285868
Some of his videos are good. However, he rambles too much and doesn't go straight to the point. He is pretty much a pseud trap. Better than Quetzal though.

>>16287277
Authors have been commening other authors and doing intertextuality for centuries. Is not a Borges thing

There is a long list of recommended books and authors in Don Quijote for instance.

Cringe post.

>>16285868
Literally who

>>16287591
Read the thread before replying, you dumb fuck.

>>16287561
>Aesthetic
What aesthetic? Yours? Hegel's?

>>16287542
>Maestro's system
>rational
>objective

You see, anon, I...

>>16287277
Utterly based

>>16287755
Take that midwit shit elsewhere

>>16284437
>He needs to put his money where his mouth is and become a full-time youtuber if he wants to be coherent and free of hypocrisy. Lots of people do it. Why can't he? Is he afraid of losing the security which is offered to him by...
>... that very same university system?
He doesn't even let to be comments on his videos, that alone gives a lot to say.

>>16287887
Midwit is saying that we have to value literary works of art based on the "aesthetic" which is psychology at this level, without giving any systematic basis on what that supposed "aesthetic" measurement even means.

>>16287997
Aesthetics is not as objective as physics, but it's not as subjective as your typical feelings either.
There is a *realm of intellectual discourse*, an entire tradition, in which we can arrive at consensuses through using a very complex and elaborate conceptual apparatus filled with time-tested (''Lindy'', if you wish) criteria, given to us by some of the greatest minds who ever lived.
For instance, nearly everyone agrees that Virgil was a great writer - even those who disliked him, such as Pound, still bothered to mention him in their writings, and at any rate admired works inspired by him (e.g., Dante), which goes to show his importance. Furthermore, this greatness can be explained by mentioning such criteria as: metrics, rich vocabulary, concision, structure, proportion, psychological density, musicality - the many time-tested (''Lindy'') criteria which you find in Aristotle, Horace's Ars Poetica, Boileau, and Pope.
What about hard cases, such as Tolstoy vs. Shakespeare? Well, these cases are easily explained by the fact that the critic had a bunch of very idiosyncratic views and biases which predisposed him to idiosyncratic tastes - Tolstoy was a very strong moralist.

The very same thing can be said about morality: there is a realm of discourse, and a space for consensus. Besides, people who deny obvious moral rules such as ''don't kill innocent people for pleasure'' are considered to be deranged, or psychopathic (the Tolstoys of morality).
Here, too, we have biases: an Englishman might deem an action good if it comes from a fellow Englishman, but bad if it comes from a Frenchman. You might be against slavery, your great-grandfather might have been in favor.
However, none of this denies those ''intersubjective truths'' which arise from the existence of a long, traditional, widely respected realm of moral discourse that has shaped ethical thinking in the West since the days of Socrates. Even your great-grandfather would probably be against the raping of an innocent young slave woman for no reason whatsoever, and would use such concepts as ''good'' and ''bad'', or an appeal to such traditions as Christianity, in order to justify his view.

Ultimately, if you look at it from a purely scientific perspective, aesthetics and morality - like all values - really are subjective.
But as soon as you enter into the human world it becomes impossible to deny such values - or, rather, you might as well epistemically deny them, but you will never be able to *feel* this denial, because holding aesthetic and moral values is necessary for the full human experience. This is something that Kant got right: just like freedom, values are also part of the way we see the world.

Think of it like money: money is, objectively, just a piece of paper, but the existence of an intersubjective realm of discourse which gives it meaning turns it into a valuable good, so that saying ''this piece of paper has value'' becomes a kind of truth.

>>16287997
Cervantes claims that all beautiful art is an imitation of nature
That's good enough for me.

>>16287676
Esquizofrenia Natural

>>16280459

>>16281202
>literature is a product not of the individual but of a nation, that’s where his fixation comes from.
There is no universal context for the individual in literature prior to modern metropolitan naval gazing insects, and literary composition outside of scholastic latin in vulgar vernaculars were explicitly speaking first and primarily to their provincial coevals towards the end of elevating discourse with in their own provincial paradigm.

>>16287277
Borges' intellectual travelogues cast in the form of a born journalist's prose by trade appeal to the sincerity of the dilettante; the passing resemblance to Robbe-Grillet's content with favorable translation glosses into English rendering is the only thing that fooled a Nabokov into rating him at all. Borges is amusingly ponderous at best, and will be remembered for his poems or not at all centuries hence.

>>16287997
A midwit is someone who is constantly borrowing terms from books because he cannot think in plain terms. It’s reddit as fuck. Someone wants to talk about aesthetics which is as simple as it gets and you need to ask metaphorical permission to Hegel. Get the fuck out with that midwit shit.

>>16288856
Is Daniel Cassany any good, or just a meme?

>>16288904
>Borges' intellectual travelogues cast in the form of a born journalist's prose by trade appeal to the sincerity of the dilettante; the passing resemblance to Robbe-Grillet's content with favorable translation glosses into English rendering is the only thing that fooled a Nabokov into rating him at all. Borges is amusingly ponderous at best, and will be remembered for his poems or not at all centuries hence.

What a contorted way of saying nothing! Imagine comparing Borges's prose to that of a journalist... Have you read him in Spanish? If so, have you tried writing like him?
Try. Try than show it to me.
You'll fail.

There is a reason why Marquez would reread Borges everyday. He was a master of concision. It's very rare to find a writer whose style is as polished and luminous as his.

And why do you think I care about Nabokov's opinion? He despised Cervantes and Dostoevsky while praising John Updike. Can't take him seriously, sorry!

>>16289098
>He was a master of concision
I think this is where some dumb assess get wild ideas like he has the prose of a natural journalist. Truly, a stupid idea if you consider it took Borges several weeks to write most of his short stories and he had to work quite hard at them, polishing.

>>16289152
They probably read him on translation, a pity.

>>16289164
you mean they read him in spanish?

>>16289152
You only realize how well he writes after you yourself try to write a story.
It's immensely hard to write as effectively as that in such little space, and with such clarity.

''En Londres, a principios del mes de junio de 1929, el anticuario Joseph Cartaphilus,de Esmirna, ofreció a la princesa de Lucinge los seis volúmenes en cuarto menor (1715-1720)de la Ilíada de Pope. La princesa los adquirió; al recibirlos, cambió unas palabras con él. Era, nos dice, un hombre consumido y terroso, de ojos grises y barba gris, de rasgos singularmente vagos. Se manejaba con fluidez e ignorancia en diversas lenguas; en muy pocos minutos pasó del francés al inglés y del inglés a una conjunción enigmática de español de Salónica y deportugués de Macao. En octubre, la princesa oyó por un pasajero del Zeus que Cartaphilus había muerto en el mar, al regresar a Esmirna, y que lo habían enterrado en la isla de Ios. En el Último tomo de la Ilíada halló este manuscrito.
El original está redactado en inglés y abunda en latinismos. La versión que ofrecemos es literal.''

He creates an entire character in only one paragraph. So much so that you can't help but keep reading to see what exactly that man had put inside the book, because it can only be something highly interesting. His adjectives are illuminating: ''Era, nos dice, un hombre consumido y terroso''. This verb, this antithesis: ''Se manejaba con fluidez e ignorancia en diversas lenguas''. A fine way of revealing that he learned by hearing and traveling, not by books, despite being a bookish man: ''una conjunción enigmática de español de Salónica y de portugués de Macao''.
You have everything that you need to know, in one paragraph.

In the following page we have:

" Mis trabajos empezaron, he referido, en un jardin de Tebas. Toda esa noche no dormí, pues algo estaba combatiendo en mi corazón. Me levanté poco antes del alba; mis esclavos dormían, la luna tenía el mismo color de la infinita arena. Un jinete rendido y ensangrentado venía del oriente. A unos pasos de mí, rodó del caballo. Con una tenue voz insaciable me preguntó en latín el nombre del río que bañaba los muros de la ciudad. Le respondí que era el Egipto, que alimentan las lluvias. «Otro es el río que persigo -replicó tristemente-, el río secreto que purifica de la muerte a los hombres.» "

If you know a journalist who can write like that, do me a favour and tell me his name, for I wish to start reading him.

>>16288904
What a convoluted way of saying a bunch of stupid shit. Undergrads need to fuck off. Nobody wants to listen to your drivel.

>>16289293
No, probably in English.

>>16279771
I swear to god the only reason why I haven't "finished" the book is because I hate Horacio so fucking much. He's like an arts mayor students fucking obnoxious piece of shit he is.

>>16288947
he’s okay

Bump

>>16280117
I remember he once mentioned offhand that he knew French as a way to claim that he was educated and intelligent and that finally pushed me to learn French out of spite, just to prove that even a retard can do it and that he's not special.

>>16293322
That's why I started learning Spanish as well.