/lit/ - Literature

>>16284316
Good but The Bible was better.

It's no Gita but it's what ya get in Arabia.

>>16284332
Its like the Bible but not good

reads like a /r9k/ post

Reads like the Old Testament. Muhammad projects a lot due to being orphaned as a kid, my heart actually goes out to him

>>16284316
A vaguely abrahamic schizophrenics diary. I so wanted to find the beauty in the Quran that muslims claim but there is nothing there of any use. No psalms, proverbs, Job and Jesus condensed to a few lines. Just a spastic talking about things he overheard while at the market and then changing the subject randomly about how it is ok to beat slaves or that you are going to hell etc.

>>16284316
how could you shitpost about islam and not have read it?

>>16284316
you aren't supposed to read it translated

>>16284316
I need to finish the Bible before I start reading that.

>>16284577
Says who

>>16284364
You read a translation. That's why.

>>16284609
muslims. It doesn't truly translate, arabic is god's language etc, that's why all western converts to islam learn arabic

>>16284634
I read the bible and the Dhammapada in translation too but there was beauty there. There is beauty in translated Arabic, Persian and Urdu poetry. There is very little to nothing for a non-muslim in the Quran.

>>16284770
Funny that one cannot read god's timeless universal message except in a language spoken by desert dwelling caravan traders.

>>16284961
Imagine being a translator trying to translate what you literally think is the immutable word of god. The Quran guarantees that not a word of it can be changed for eternity. How do you translate it then? You can take no artistic liberties with it : it must be a literal translation in every sense. I think that fear in the translators leads to a sort of robotic, scared prose.

>>16284961
>There is very little to nothing for a non-muslim in the Quran.
Doesn't this mean the book is worthless unless you were raised to believe in whatever it's saying?

>>16284992
All translations contain artistic liberties. A literal word for word translation doesnt work. Once it gets translated it no longer a Quran but a translation, therefore not the literal word of God.

>>16285183
This

70% is some variation of
'good bois get rewarded on the day of judgment while transgressors will burn in hell'

>>16284316
A hideous mishmash of the Bible and Arabic tribal legalism to justify what amounted to deicide and land prospection.

>>16285075
Yes.

>>16284316
Schizo rambling, constantly switching subjects and drowned in threats and insults, really a painful read. No wonder muslims are like that with such a rag as holy book.

>>16284316
In the past, there was a time when I read it repeatedly. Lately however, whenever I've picked it up I've had to give up after only a few sentences because the content is so repulsive.

>>16284316
>Has anyone here actually read this?
I Am
>How was it?
Shit.

in arabic it feels nice and makes you say woah

Yes. It was based

>>16284316
My opinion on it is already biased by the fact that I am not quite ready to even let Christianity in yet after 700 years and then THIS upstart shows up expecting to be taken seriously..

>>16284332
link
legacy.quran.com
Choose the default and Pickthall translations

recitation with subtitles
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R1JEthK29MU

It's not at all like the Bible or the Gita, it really reads, as another anon was kind to mention, a schizophrenic's diary. There is also barely any philosophy in it, or even lore really, it's like the whole religion came as a whole in Muhammad's head

>>16287490
>I am not quite ready to even let Christianity in yet after 700 years
Where do you live, india?

>>16284316
Overuse of the refrain
>God is Great
>Really
In various combinations.

Not a lot of narrative, plenty of half-baked aphorisms, bulk of poetry (mostly basic stuff like rhymes and syllables) lost in translations.

It's like book of Proverbs per bible, but more disjointed and LOTS more filler lines.

Better off just reading Rumi and other mystics.

>>16284316
Put it thus way:

If the Koran ended up as a raw MS on a crit thread, the thread would either reach bump limit by anons shitposting contempt, or be hijacked by Guenon fag to discuss bodhism.

>>16287897
northern europe

>>16284316
The book of Mormon was better than that trash

>>16285183
you're argueing off the basis that it is the "literal word of god". Delusional.

>>16288623
me when i see a thot.webm

>>16284316
Some background; I loved the Bible so much I returned to the church. So It's not like I have some sort of extreme bias against Abrahamic religion, indeed all true religion is through Abraham. Also I read the Bahgavad Gita, it was meh.

The Noble Recitation (Quran) is unique among religious works of all times and places; it is boring as fuck, uninspiring, extremely verbose, and overly legal. Really it reads worse than those bits in Deuteronomy and Leviticus that we all skip, it is less interesting than the catalogue of ships in Book 2 of the Iliad (which is actually a real work of art as compared to the Quran). I think the worst bit though is that when I read Deuteronomy, I understand the legal implications, when I read the Quran, I don't understand the legal implications. I would literally rather go to a court which applies Mosaic law than a court which applies Sharia.

>>16288743
>Christian
>Doesn't a have a bias against Islam
And pigs fly

>>16284316
I rather liked it

(Not my full /lit/ collection before someone starts sperging)

>>16290335
Oh pic here

>>16288595
Do you reject religion or just larp as one of those cults we actually know close to nothing about?

>>16290310
this. you will not enjoy the quran if you already have a picture of what you think mualims are like. if you are an outsider, you should read sufi tafsirs of the quran first, it gives you a better understanding of how to approach the very dense text.

>>16284992

How does that actually work, considering that languages themselves change?

>>16284991
Most people in the world cannot read, especially until modern schooling. Thats why it's more efficient to put it in poetic form, which obviously is tailored to the original language. Arabic is the most obvious choice in being unchanging and widespread.

>>16290389
>one of those cults we actually know close to nothing about
the roots of the shamanistic tradition observed here actually predate the human colonization of north america through bering strait

>>16284316
I tried, but the content is shit, and as everybody says here, translations aren't as beautiful as the original.

That reminds me of this trick that Atheists in Muslim cunts pull. Some hobos use to get in the public buses and start reading the Qu'ran outloud, and people will thank them at the exit. Even pay them a little money. Welp, Atheist activists will do the same. Only that they read a certain book (forgot the name) that's just a long rant of made-up nonesense, but written in a beautiful style. And people will act just as if they had heard the real Qu'ran. Activists record this sometimes on video.

>read a translation of the Quran and love it
>no criticism from Muslims
>read a translation of the Quran and hate it
>you didn't truly read it

>>16291332
Most of the criticisms are very artificial, thats why

Everyone pick a chapter at Random, and give an honest opinion
legacy.quran.com

Use Pickthall's translation

>>16284316
Non-meme answer: It's a shorter but more consistent version of the bible that is easier to understand for a layman.

>>16291458
does the abrogation make it more consistent?

The non chronological ordering is a neat device but it makes the twist ending where Mohammed turns out to be gay somewhat contrived

>>16291332
Nah IME if you say "I read a translation of the Quran and loved it! Muslims say "that's amazing, I'm so glad the word of Allah can reach so many different cultures, if you want you should look into learning Arabic some time so you can truly experience the music of it convertconvertconvertconvertconvertconvertconvertconvertconvert".

>>16288623
Based christian man invoking the lord to suppress his public boner.

>>16291357
>Qaf
A threat that judgement is drawing near. References the Torah, but only in a sort of name-drop manner. Lots of threats, Allah is great and powerful, you'll be sorry tut tut wags-finger, etc. It reminds me of those memes Christfags make where [person I don't like] is burning in hell because they [did think the Christfag doesn't like]. I'm right, you're wrong, for no reason other than because I said so, and one day you'll be sorry for not agreeing with me for no reason other than that this is the opinion that I currently hold.

Over the last couple of days I have been attempting to read the Koran, to see if there is anything good about it.

Today I have given up trying to read it, because I think it is a waste of my time. I believe it is the product of a sick mind.

I think there is some kind of awareness of truth behind it, but that connection is remote indeed, and the mind of the writers of the Koran has been polluted with much poison, which has become embodied in the Koran.

I was hoping to arrive at a compilation of half-decent wise quotations from the Koran, but the following is the best I could come up with: [2.42] "And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it)." On a scale of great quotes, out of ten, the above probably ranks a score of 1.

Here is another: "God changes not what is within people until people change what is in themselves." [13:11] This one probably ranks 0.01, because it is just plain stupid. What is worse, for every quote I found of a similar quality to the above, I found fifty that are a hundred times worse.

I find much of the Koran quite repulsive. Much, if not most of the Koran comes across as fearful and paranoid rantings, trying to scare people into submission by beating them with a big stick. I don't believe it has anything to do with wisdom.

I will here attempt an abstract of the Koran:

Believe in Allah.
Pray to Allah.
Don't be an Unbeliever.
If you are an Unbeliever, you will go to hell.
If you believe, you will receive virgins as your
reward in heaven.
Don't make friends with Christians or Jews.
Don't make friends with the unjust.
Unbelievers are unjust, and are doomed.
Pray to Allah.
Allah will destroy the unbelievers.
If unbelievers repent, then you might forgive them.
Submit to Allah.
If you don't submit to Allah you will be punished.
etc, etc.

Here is another typical example of what I found:

"But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars." (The Family of Imran 3.61)

This comes across to me as plainly vindictive. What gives the Koran away as a fraud is that if a person is truly a "believer" (which means he would not only know Ultimate Truth, but also have faith in it) then he would be repulsed by all that is in the Koran. He would have no need of "praying for the curse of Allah on the liars". And he could make up his own mind who to make friends with and who to avoid.

What more can I say? Can anyone else find something good about the Koran?

- Kevin Solway

https://archive.vn/BIU7z

>>16284316
It's not a literary text that you pick up and read like some novel like the Bible, it's supposed to be studied with verses and chapters in isolation, looking at the historical and inter-textual context. The whole purpose is that it's supposed to be explained and elaborated on by later thinkers, in that way it's supposed to be constant throughout history. The muslim returns to the text again and again in light of what they learn anew

You can't expect low IQ retards who can only understand religious texts as though it's supposed to be a replica of the bible (and then criticize it for using biblical themes!) to get this though.

The Qur'an says the Gospels and Torah are true but the Qur'an contradicts the gospels and Torah. One example is the Torah stating that the Pharaoh's daughter adopted Moses, while the Qur'an asserts that it was the Pharaoh's wife. Muslims will often claim that the Torah was corrupted even though we have manuscripts from before, during, and after Muhammad's life. This would mean Muhammad, in an apparent revelation from God declared a corrupted text to be correct. This is also brushing aside the fact that all of these manuscripts are consistent despite coming from various regions and time periods. The sort of corruption posited by Muslims would require a massive conspiracy to not only wipe out all those manuscripts, but secretly change them throughout time and space. This is impressive considering the Romans couldn't even come close to wiping out the Gnostic "gospels" despite having the might of an empire to prosecute it.

There's no way out of this trap for Muslims, either God is a liar and doesn't deserve our respect or the Islamic religion is false.

>>16288623
The complete lack of taste on display here is impressive

>>16292017
Easiest one:
"Jesus is good, but we don't beliefs that he is "the Way", although he himself said that..."

>>16291705
this guy >>16291357
is literally just shilling a translation and doing the opposite of what you said

if you like it in translation = good
if you dont like in translation = you didnt read it

>>16291458
I guess if you don't mind verses of God telling people to give Muhammad earthly things (ex. wives).

>>16284316
What did Quenon say about it? My opinion is whatever he said

>>16292428
Guenon was more impressed by Arabic and the system of Islam than the Quran itself from what I've read. Guenon citing the Quran is uncommon.

>>16292428
he didnt say anything about it

Summary:
>GOD IS FUCKING GREAT
>GO FUCK UP ANYONE INCLUDING YOURSELF WHO SAYS HE ISNT
>MOHAMMED AYYYYYYYYYY

>>16292955
Sufi interpretation of the "kill the disbeliever wherever you find him" makes the most sense even though the Wahhabi interpretation has won out by far. The simple logistics involved in having to kill every disbeliever when you see them means you may never get on with your day. The Sufis know that it's about killing the disbeliever in yourself, essentially quell the disbeliever in you.

>>16284316
repetitive

>>16284991
this is just a sunk costs fallacy

it's like how people who go into uni don't usually finish a phd and then decide education is completely irrelevant and useless for living the rest of their lives

>>16291832
I think, from an outsider perspective, what muslims get out of the koran is not like what others get

>torah
jews get lore, mythology, cosmology

>new testament
christians get moral paragon, evangelical mission

on the other hand

>koran
muslims get a sense of what it means to be autistically obsessed with an omnipotent and violent sky king

>>16291890
The irony being that The Bible functions in the exact same way, and functions pretty poorly for most of its length, as a novel in the conventional sense. Only upon returning to verses, chapters, and books in isolation, with study, and interest, can they begin ti be strung together to understand the whole picture.

>>16293090
Everything I’ve heard about Sufi beliefs and interpretations makes complete sense. Muslims are retarded for standing against the only belief structure that makes sense of the religion; such a shame it remains in minority.
I am not indicting Islam as a whole, mind you. All religious groups fall victim to the same trap. Bowing to authority and fitting in with cultural hegemonies are too powerful of a vice for the masses to resist it, no matter where you look or under what context.

I read a couple chapters. It was boring as fuck and repetitive, and devoid of any artistic merit (Such a brutish and crude way of writing. It left no room for expression).

>>16293090
Works better when your prophet is a Buddha or Jesus. Less well when your prophet is a warlord.
That said the Sufis did amazing things with what they had. I nearly accepted Islam after listening/reading a lot of Sufi poetry and listening to their takes on the religion. Even now as someone leaning catholic, i dont think anyone gets as close to loving God as the medieval Sufi's do in their poetry.

bump

>>16284316
>How was it?
Not even Muslims appear to agree on what it actually says

>>16295921
Yes, there is general agreement. If you are referring to "extremists" - Bin Laden for instance disavowed extremism and said his motive was to stop Zionist control of the world.

"The Jews have taken control of your economy, through which taken control of your media, making you their slaves"

>>16284316
they hand out free copies at my pharmacy

>>16293148
Education is useless tho

>>16293090
nonsense. the amount of Christians that like Sufis should tell you all you need to know about them.

>>16294782
>your prophet is a warlord.
Didn't he only fight one war against the merchant elite in Mecca, in which he was not even the aggressor?
Pre-Christ prophets were also commonly involved in wars.

>>16296298
>fis should tell you all you need to know about them.
>>>
> Anonymous 09/05/20(Sat)19:34:26 No.162962
Like what pre-Christ prophets? How do you know what wars they were commonly involved in?

>>16284332
It's pretty repetitive and agree Bible has more lit merit.

>>16284316
Yes, it's painfully bad on every level, absolute rubbish. Nothing redeeming or even a glimmer of self-reflection or hope or redemption. A horrific doctrine of hateful oppression and systemic racism the likes of which dwarf anything in the Occident, past or present.

>>16296429
Moses and Joshua exterminated the levantine tribes when the judaic tribes entered the land of Israel, there were many battles fought against other armies, many sackings of cities and slaughter of civilians.
The entire pre-exile history of Israel then proceeds to be defined by their military engagements neighbouring kingdoms, often resulting in Jews being taken as slaves, which they blame themselves for, due to sinning. The judges, although technically not prophets, are essentially just a step lower on the "God speaks to me" ladder, and most if not all of them were noteworthy for their mass violence. Shoutout to Samson most of all.
Nevermind God's favoured and chosen King, David, and his warrior life.

I'm not even criticizing Judaism and Christianity here, just pointing out that in terms of violence and involvement in war, stacked up against the long lineage of prophets and other important God-picked holy men throughout Abrahamic history, Muhammad would land somewhere in the middle at worst.

>>16284364
>how it is ok to beat slaves
you just exposed yourself of never actually reading the quran. there are no verses about beating slaves.

>>16284355
It does nothing of the sort. A hodgepodge of Coptic, Gnostic, Judeo, Zoroastric wives tales, and leftovers. Perhaps the worst book ever written.

>>16284332
Retards.... The Quaran is infinitely superior to the bible. That you would even think otherwise signifies to me and everyone else how stupid you are. Pathetic.

>>16284634
Sadly, if it were truly the word of God, it would ring true whatever the language, on this level the Qoran fails miserably. So many foul-ups even in the Qorans from centuries and centuries ago. For a book that never changes, it sure does change a lot, even in Arabic

>>16291095
Very valid and I'd say it does not, again the Qoran fails as it does so often even living up to its own self-aggrandizing claims. What a load of sh*t.

>>16296503
And I should take your word because?

>>16292226
He was the way for his people. All prophets were the "Way"

>>16284316
i read a bit
is boring cos is an old books
cover hair and dont eat to appreciate family
starving for fun?

jaja sure 4 fun lol

>>16292017
"Either God's a liar or Islam is false"
or maybe you don't know as much as you think you do

>>16296503
Imagine thinking a knock off dollar store crib notes version of the Bible is good
Fucking terrible book

>>16284961
As a persian who speaks and reads farsi and English, rumi, ferdowsi, and khayaam don't translate well at all and all the word play, rhythm, dancing and rumbling sounds, the soft waves of speech, it's all lost in translation.

it's like trying to translate shakespeare, or better yet like trying to put the music of a violin into words, or the feeling of rolling around in fresh silk sheets into words.

Maybe you can capture the gist, but not the soul of what makes persian poetry beautiful

>>16296613
I think what he knows, he knows just fine, now you, I'd question.

>>16296601
Shut up faggot. You are lucky I am talking to filth like you. Get lost.

>>16296615
I have no idea what you are talking about. You are clearly confused. Go read for a few years and maybe you'll be prepared to talk to me again.

>>16296682
>>16296673
>>16296503
Brutal.

>>16296474
>Jewish media clichés about Islam
>unironically using the phrase "systemic racism"
hello shlomo

>>16296666
He doesn't know shit. That argument about the manuscripts is literally the dumbest talking point against Islam I've ever read. I'd tell you why it's dumb, but even if I explained it thoroughly and eloquently, you guys would still not believe.

So I'll wait until you guys are either guided, or destroyed.

>>16296660
Although the Rubiat did quite nicely, the fact you seem to overlook it it says perhaps you're a bit full of yourself and should find your poo street.

>>16296706
You bumble about with your arguments as if you're in kindergarten, grow up you sad and pathetic child, think of your poor mothers electric bill, you awful, spoiled brat. Shame on you . . . bad boy.

>>16296705
This. The Jewish religion commands them to Judaize all Hebrews, that's why the whole Middle East had to be unified and Jews of Persia and Arabia, subjugated

>>16284316
SAMPLE PASSAGES

"When they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when eyes grew wild and hearts reached to the throats, and ye were imagining vain thoughts concerning Allah.
11. There were the believers sorely tried, and shaken with a mighty shock.
12. And when the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, were saying: Allah and His messenger promised us naught but delusion.
13. And when a party of them said: O folk of Yathrib! There is no stand (possible) for you, therefor turn back. And certain of them (even) sought permission of the Prophet, saying: Our homes lie open (to the enemy). And they lay not open. They but wished to flee.
14. If the enemy had entered from all sides and they had been exhorted to treachery, they would have committed it, and would have hesitated thereupon but little.
15. And verily they had already sworn unto Allah that they would not turn their backs (to the foe). An oath to Allah must be answered for.
16. Say: Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing, and then ye dwell in comfort but a little while. " CHAPTER 33

"Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;
40. Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty -
41. Those who, if We give them power in the land, establish worship and pay the poor-due and enjoin kindness and forbid iniquity. And Allah's is the sequel of events.
42. If they deny thee (Muhammad), even so the folk of Noah, and (the tribes of) A'ad and Thamud, before thee, denied (Our messengers);
43. And the folk of Abraham and the folk of Lot;
44. (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I indulged the disbelievers a long while, then I seized them, and how (terrible) was My abhorrence!
45. How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
46. Have they not travelled in the land, and have they hearts wherewith to feel and ears wherewith to hear ? For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are within the bosoms that do grow blind" Chapter 22

>>16296503
>Can't even spell the name of his holy book

>>16292392
Do you have any idea how irrelevant some random /lit/ autist is to this conversation?

>>16291233
sauce? I need to see this shit

are there any Christian commentaries on the Qu'ran? i know of Muslim commentary on the Bible, but not vice versa.

>>16294782
I don't think the problem for Sufism is that Muhammad was violent. It's more that hadiths are a clusterfuck of contradictory made-up bullshit so the religion gets dragged down into autistic legalism and thinking it's cool to have sex with your daughter.

>>16296940
barely readable

When people say that it doesn't translate properly, they are not talking about the message or actual contents but the poetry, wordplay and what not. A lot of muslims are disingenuous about this.
If you read a translation and thought the content was garbage then you'll still think that if you read the original Arabic, it'll just be well presented garbage.

>>16298314
If I remember correctly the Hadiths weren't supposed to be like that, at some point they stopped investigating and verifying them.

>>16298338
So did Muhammad fuck Aisha when she was 9 or not?

What all these illiterate infidel fuckheads don't understand when they read the Qur'an and complain about it jumping between topics is that the Qur'an was revealed orally throughout Muhammad's life, the verses were put into writing not even a hundred years after his death. It was shared through oral transmission and was written down here and there before it was compiled into a singular book by the third caliph uthman.

The Qur'an has already described the likeness of you people, who read the Qur'an with a mountain of bias and feel satisfied in thinking that it's bad, when you haven't even given it a closer look, like a pig with gems. It's honestly hilarious seeing your worthless takes on the Qur'an and seeing how you all get basic concepts in the Qur'an wrong because you've only read it through anti-islam websites and skimmed through it because it bored you.

Don't worry children, I will break down a few basic beauties of the third Abrahamic text. By far the most poetic verses are the ones equating resurrection with dead earth.

And it is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds, and We drive them to a dead land and give life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness. Thus is the resurrection. (Fatir, 9)

There is a similar verse in Fussilat (The concise explanation in english) where it describes how the Earth is dead and then clouds full of rain come out of seemingly nowhere and "resurrects" the green herbage of the land, restoring its beauty. This is described to be one of the signs of the oncoming resurrection.

The reason why you all do not think the Qur'an is impressive is because you do not believe the message of the Qur'an (Which is the only reason it was revealed for. Smugly joking about how every verse is a threat to hell shows your ignorance of the message, thus proving your bias and your feeble attention span)

In order to full appreciate the Qur'an, you need to look at it through the lens of a Muslim. What I did when reading it for the first time was assume it was correct for the sake of argument. And then the beauty and power of it manifested itself through its words. The Qur'ans literal only job was to warn us of the punishment of God and to give good news to those searching for truth. In this, it is already vastly different from the bible, and the Qur'an has more in common with the old testament than the new one. For starters, in the Bible, Prophets are shown to have many flaws and a few of them even took up idol worship. The stories the Qur'an bring are different and attest to the perfection of these prophets sent which by far makes the most sense, (prophets are supposed to be role models. In the bible they are like your drunk dad who is as close of a role model as you're going to get) and the message is way simpler in the Quran. Cities were destroyed because of their callousness to these messengers and prophets. So, the Qur'an cites these incidents and then God tells Muhammad to say he's a warner just like them.

>>16298679
2/

For every verse warning of hell, there are an amount of verses attesting to the all-encompassing forgiveness of God. When people read the verses of hell, and then ignore the verses of God insisting that He is easily capable of erasing the sins of anybody who asks, just shows that you probably deserve to be there. For fucks sake, its not hard to actually read the Qur'an without a stick up your ass about muslims.

>>16284316
starting to learn about history of islam, arabs, ottomans etc. always been a big blind spot in my education. what is some essential lit from those areas/cultures?

>>16298679
Muhammad made the whole thing up dude

>>16298314
Sufism takes directly from the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) you rube

>>16298739

>>16284316
No, because if I read this book and people saw me reading it, unless I'm a muslim I'll get weird looks for reading it.

t. Buddhist in a muslim populated country

>>16298679
I get what you're saying but even if it was orally transmitted it would only explain why it jumps around but wouldn't justify it doing so. I haven't read the whole quran to really judge but it does seem repetitive at times.

>>16298948
Repetition is needed so that the message isn’t forgotten. And why does subject changing need to be justified? To be honest, when you read it in Arabic it doesn’t seem that bad. In fact it’s pretty eloquent. For example, the subject will be about disbelievers getting demolished, and then it will flip to believers being rewarded. Sometimes subject change is necessary because if there is nothing more to say on the subject why eloquently go into another one when you can just do so? Especially considering that only parts of the Surah are recited during prayer. And especially considering this verse.
Say: If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are exhausted, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add (Al Kahf, 109)

Meaning, God has a lot to say, so why waste time with prose and nonsense like that especially in a language that does not follow the rules that many other languages follow. The people of Arabia didn’t mind the subject change because they had a different look on its literary value and early arab critics of the Quran didn’t care either. It’s just people who are used to the traits of storytelling who find it abysmal, when it is actually something most Muslims barely even notice because they read it so often.

>>16298025
St. John of Damascus wrote critiques of Islam. Not a full blown commentary, but gives a Middle Eastern Christian perspective on early Islam and the Quran.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

>>16299010
Like Antifa, pants on fire!

>>16298543
No, the only source of that assumption is only from one person, Hisyam bin 'Urwah. To count Aisha's age at the time you just need to check on her older sister's age, Asma. Asma is 10 years older than Aisha and she died at the age of 100 in the year 74/73 of Hijri. This means she was 28/27 years old when the Hegira happened. 28/27 minus 10 is 18/17 = Aisha was 20/19 when Muhammad bedded her.

It is good for burning or wiping your ass with it.

>>16299017
thanks

>>16296709
>Rubiat
The translation is soulless, like a shadow of a sculpture on the wall. The metaphor can be translated, but the art of it cannot. You don't breathe the poems, like the ash from the campfire that sometimes burns you and sometimes makes you feel at home on Earth, you can only recite it with clunky, kitchy rhyming couplets.

Sorry but it's not at all the same

>>16298691
Many of those verses are about "those who disbelieved", the pagans attacking them at the time

>>16298948
It's because people already knew those stories about the prophets. The Quran has to relate them to people who did not know, and at the same time provide commentary on it for people who did - the best way is a non-linear fashion with different contexts. Repetition and varying messages helps prevent scholars from concealing certain verses and passages - as many clergy did

>>16299611
>and she died at the age of 100

what's this level of cope apologetics called?

>>16298908
Indonesian?

>>16296706
Tell me how the Torah was corrupted and how we know it's corrupted.

>>16300902
There's a few people that lived a long life too at the time, ex: Salman Al-Farisi (90), Hassan bin Tsabit (120), Hakim bin Hizam (>120); Asma wasn't really a special case.

>>16298543
That's when he full-on penetrated her, he was still performing sexual acts with her when she was 6.

>>16298543
After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question presented to the grand Mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad Al-Shemary, the question forwarded to the committee by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/8/1421 (Islamic calendar). The inquirer asked the following:

It has become wide spread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children (mufa’khathat literally translated means "placing between the thighs" which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child). What is the opinion of scholars knowing full well that the prophet, the peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, also practiced the "thighing" of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be please with her.

After the committee studied the issue, they gave the following reply:
It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kufar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed HIS [MALE] MEMBER BETWEEN HER THIGHS AND MASSAGED IT SOFTLY, as the apostle of Allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers.. (Source: http://www.sout-al-haqe.com/pal/musical/mofakhaza.ram))


http://www.islamic-fatwa.net/viewtopic.php?TopicID=8330
In the above link Islamic scholar Dr Ahmad Al-Hajj Al-Kurdi comments on the fatwah in question. He is responding to a person who is asking whether or not the fatwah actually exists, and whether or not Muhammad committed this action. In response he says that Muhammad most probably did this after he consummated the marriage at 9 rather than when she was 6. His point of contention therefore is concerning when Muhammad did this to the little girl, and not whether or not he did it.

>>16301293
So just rely on other hadiths that claim so and so lived to 100, therefore he didn't fuck a 9 year old?

>>16284364
Why pretend to have read it? You can just say Islam is shit and no one would mind, are you that desperate to have random anons here validate you or something

>>16301407
Do you have a source that isn't dead and references anything concrete in particular by any chance

>>16301556
Fatwa 41409 by Khomeini who's basically the equivalent of the pope for muslims

>>16301556
>with reference number 1809 issued on 3/8/1421 (Islamic calendar)
Idiot

>>16301481
Some of us read mate. According to goodreads i finished The Qur'an: A New Translation
by Anonymous, Muhammad A.S. Abdel Haleem (Translator) in december 2018. I also read part of the Saheeh translation.

>>16301694
You probably marked it as read by mistake then, or maybe you read something similar and not the actual thing, I dunno. Jesus isn't "condensed to a few lines", he's one of the most referred to people within the book. You haven't read it.

>>16301445
Kind of? Like the other anons said, the hadith consist of materials from the result of years long research to a bunch of literal who that no one really knows. Regarding the Aisha hadith, another argument is the dissaproval of Hisyam's by his student, Imam Malik in his book Al-Muwatta and other hadith researchers like Ibnu Hajar and Ya'qub bin Abi Syaibah saying the hadith Hisyam and his Iraqi followers uttered shouldn't be trusted.

>>16301597
>with reference number 1809 issued on 3/8/1421 (Islamic calendar)
Have you tried googling that yourself? No one can find the source for this, and it references a hadith no one can find the source of either, and references an arabic word that didn't exist at the time either

>>16284316
Inferior Bible ripoff with added fanfics from sectarian apocryphical books

>>16301737
>y-you didn't read it!
Have you considered that the fact that people have been levying the exact same criticisms against Islam since its founding is indicative of fundamental flaws in it? You can't seriously believe God said dumb shit like
>Christians are tritheists worshiping Jesus, Yahweh, and Mary
>the earth is flat
>drinking camel urine cures diseases
>Classical Arabic was the language spoken by Adam in the Garden of Eden and remained unchanged until Muhammad's time

It's gibberish utterances of a desert schizo (much like all semitic religious books).
t. Shia Muslim by birth

>>16296940
Vacuous tripe.