/lit/ - Literature

>>16273278
>thinking (((academia))) has anything to do with knowledge or information and especially truth.

>>16273278
Electrical engineers are not power line repairmen, dumbass.

Learning how to think is not useless. You have a cretinous view of philosophy because you lack the ability to think.

>>16273278
based bugman

>>16273278
Philosophy saved me from a lot of ridiculousness. Now I only specialize in a particular niche of ridiculousness.

>>16273278
what if i have a phd in philoophy and i think people with college degrees are stupid?

>>16273278
This image seems like such a cope by apprenticetards, why are they so insecure? They're always shitting on people with degrees even though on an aggregate it seems to be a sound investment.

>>16273278
>implying knowing whether it's amperage or voltage that kills you is useful

>>16273278
If you're a STEM guy who only reads STEM, you are as lost as the philosophy major who doesn't read any STEM.

>>16273389
Philosophers mostly have math and science backgrounds.

>>16273278
based OP

>>16273295
bet you failed college

>>16273312
philosophers are sophists who can't handle the logical abstractions required to understand something reputable like mathematics

>>16273327
based and enlightenedpill

>>16273332
then you've wasted the best part of your late teens to mid twenties and are stupid af anyway. consider how much expressive power you'd have if you focused on learning something that can actually be applied.

>>16273398
That is news to me. Why do you say that?

>>16273278
The numbers in your chart are way off. See pic related.

>>16273389
/thread

>>16273412
Most have degrees in the hard sciences.

>>16273422
Like whom?

>>16273278
I'm studying to be an Electrical Engineer but I like reading Philosophy one the side. You can have more then one interest and I recommend people have an interest in the STEM and Humanities!

it's all fun and games unti Joe realizes that fixing people's electricity is all he's gonna amount to in life and it probably won't even be enough for pension. Also people don't wanna do these sweaty ass jobs because they're quite depressing to do unless you grew up with a passion for this sort of stuff.
Jim most likely knew that a bachelors in philosophy won't pay but he studied it anyway because that's what he liked. Better than pursuing depressing career that gives you zero energy to do anything but work.
at the end of the day most of us will continue living on thin ice except for the wealthy. that's just how it is. find what makes you happy and see if you can try to live off of it.
also you can always become a code monkey

>>16273447
I meant to say on the side.

>>16273447
Why not just study STEM and get really fucking good at what you do instead of studying both and being mediocre?

>>16273278
Metaphysics and epistemology is literally the most fundamental practical skill in every area you decide to work in.
Metaphysics teaches you how to understand abstract patterns which in turmn gives you a huge competitive advantage in everything + allows you to be more creative

>bro just be ignorant
>like, why would I care about how to be at peace or know anything about the world around me when I could be a worker drone all day
>lmao you've attained sublime philosophical enlightenment but Mr. Shekelstein just gave me a promotion so who's really winning?
Also, just because you have an interest in philosophy doesn't mean you have to throw all your money away in bullshit ivy league programs. Only pseuds do that.

>>16273456
My "studying" of Philosophy is my hobby. You don't just do work 24/7. I enjoy reading philosophy on my off time, so that's what I do. I'm assuming you don't just study 24/7, so what do you do on your off time? I read.

>>16273426
Frege, Russell, Wittgenstein, Carnap, Reichenbach, Quine, Hempel, Kripke, the whole lot.

>>16273471
>throw all your money away in bullshit ivy league programs
If you make under 60k you don't have to pay anything to study at an ivy league.

what can one even do with a bachelors in philosophy?

>>16273507
Everything.

>>16273403
I never went to college you stupid nigger

>>16273482
How many people who make <60K get into Ivies?

>>16273456
>Why don't you just do one thing for the rest of your life and never have any other hobbies or interests
What exactly makes autists think their retard opinions like this are worth expressing? Go talk about how logical and rational you are on /g/ or something

>>16273414
>mid career
lmaoing at ur life. I became a master electrician at 23 and made 200k running my own business at 24.
I still probably read more than most of the pseuds on this board, too.

>>16273525
Most of the people who get into Ivies are Rich so the cost doesn't really matter. But if you're poor or lower MIddle class you won't have to pay so the cost doesn't matter for them. Upper-Middle class will have to pay but they'll get financial aid packages, it'll be worst for them though but it's still a sound investment for them since most of the people who graduate from Ivies become upper class and upper middle class.

>>16273525
I think the point is that nobody is losing all of their money going to Ivies. If you have to pay anything, it's because your parents are fucking loaded and they won't notice it's gone.
The people getting screwed over by America's college system are the retards going to terrible state schools, losing their scholarships (by design), and coming out in six figures of debt for worthless Psychology or Communications degrees that get them nowhere. Any Ivy degree is a free pass to get into elite institutions for the rest of your life, it isn't at all comparable.

>>16273584
exactly, going to college in burgerland is stupid unless you can go to the top tier universities.

>>16273278
Why is the dichotomy always white collar with education vs blue collar with no education? Where's the autodidact? Where's the guy who still values education but not in its modern bastardized state? Where's the guy who undertakes a serious self-education in his own time? Where's the guy who worked a shitty entry position and, without schooling, just climbed business ladders, either within the company he started in, or by constantly applying to other ladders? Where's the guy who created his own business? Where's the artists? Why is it always soon-coporoate hipster Jim and hillbilly plumber Joe?

>>16273674
"autodidact" is just a euphemism for crackpot.

>>16273278
Dude kantbot and logo have philosophy degrees and they are geniuses that make millions a year

>>16273278
>muh based physical labour
Enjoy your broken back when you reach age 50

>>16273833
>Enjoy your broken back when you reach age 50

It can happen a lot earlier than that.

>>16273847
I remember reading a post from some anon on /pol/ who was all hyped up about getting into trades.
Then he actually talked to some people who work trades and learned that they all had issues. Bad knees, backs, arthritis, you name it.
Needless to say, he gave up after that.

>>16273471
>>bro just be ignorant
>>like, why would I care about how to be at peace or know anything about the world around me when I could be a worker drone all day
>>lmao you've attained sublime philosophical enlightenment but Mr. Shekelstein just gave me a promotion so who's really winning?
This is how INTJ's think. They only care about the "practical". No wonder they're all crypto facists and jerk off about STEM and muh engineering duhgrees

>>16273674
audodidacts are peak midwit. They read some moldbug article or some "esoteric" fascist book recommended by their twitter mutuals but never read Kant and have no grasp on the basics

>>16273278
joe's at work while jim's living it up, probably about to go fuck joe's wife

>>16274095
Just what an oversocialized gatekeeper would say.

Jim gets to fuck premium /lit/ pussy while Jim has to feed his fatass wife with 5 children

>>16273914
It's probably great money if you're in your 20s sure. But do you want to be out there sweating your ass off all day every day into your old age? Probably not. Save the physical labor for the gym.

I like to repost this Chesterton quote whenever one of these threads pops up because it puts the matter to rest.
Why bother with philosophy?
"Philosophy is merely thought that has been thought out. It is often a great bore. But man has no alternative, except between being influenced by thought that has been thought out and being influenced by thought that has not been thought out. The latter is what we commonly call culture and enlightenment today. But man is always influenced by thought of some kind, his own or somebody else’s; that of somebody he trusts or that of somebody he never heard of, thought at first, second or third hand; thought from exploded legends or unverified rumours; but always something with the shadow of a system of values and a reason for preference. A man does test everything by something. The question here is whether he has ever tested the test."

Great essay by the way
https://www.chesterton.org/the-revival-of-philosophy-why/

>>16273278
I'm due to inherit about 4.6 million dollars in liquid wealth and over 20 Dunkin Donuts franchises. Why do I care about 100k in student loans?

You guys are retarded for not having boomer capitalists as fathers.

>>16273398
False

Like Oscar Wilde said "all art is quite useless". Society isn't geared toward making art but toward capital's advancement

>>16274195
Hell yeah dude

>>16274195
Based

>>16273469
What is metaphysics tho? I never heard of this until I came to lit.

>>16273278
joe is thinking about platos ion while working and is having deep thoughts about the flow of electricity and the flow of ideas and memories

>>16274225
Capital's advancement allows art to occur more frequently and at more refined levels.

>>16273403
Oh those mathematicians that systematized it over the years must've been retards for using deduction and formally reasoning their positions and proofs - aside from formal symbols and conventions to align with that...

>>16273278
Cringe.
t. Electrical engineer
>>16273306
also this

>>16273278
good, but "philosopher" should be in quotes.

Everything is pointless. Life is pain. Happiness is only the negation of pain. Death offers no escape from the Will. Absolute annihilation would be bliss.

Philosophy switched from being informed by natural sciences to being dependent on them
The only thinkers after WW2 worth anybody's time are Popper, maybe Feyerabend (some people erroneously include Kuhn here. Even though he's a great historian, fucker was not a philosopher) and meme man Nagel
Everything else is so badly outclassed by the natural sciences themselves that it's not worth anybody's time
Epistemological debates have become a semantics war akin to Catholicism Vs Lutheranism
Metaphysics has always been informed by the natural sciences (the name itself comes from how Aristotle's works which we call metaphysics were right next to his Physics) but now it's a humble slave of them
Very few philosophers have the guts to defy the natural sciences and do something on their own
Even Continentals have been completely crushed under the weight of advancements made in the field of historiography and the less retarded wings of anthropology
It's kind of sad really
I would never tell someone "No don't read Phaedrus or Consolation of Philosophy or Hume's Essay" but
Eh I dunno
I need to go to sleep

>>16273450
>Better than pursuing depressing career that gives you zero energy to do anything but work.
>you can always become a code monkey
you've earned it anon

>>16274656
>Philosophy switched from being informed by natural sciences to being dependent on them
>I need to go to sleep
this is such a funny post

>>16273403
>based and enlightenedpill
I'm still going to get that Philosophy PhD.
It's okay I got a CS degree, a well-paying job, and a marketable property beforehand.

>>16273278
They always compare their trades to the least profitable majors in college. Philosphy, Art etc. Let's compare that guy to an engineer or something.

>>16273278
guy on right looks like braindead npc with boring life and will grow old with his boring life.

Go on left is having fun and based and living life.

>>16274698
Looking back at my post, it's very incoherent
But my point that
Old philosophy GOOD
new "philosophy" BAD
Still stands
Heidegger falls under old philosophy, I really like the guy's hot takes on the shadow man and on living
He was occasionally incoherent and showed signs of what was to come though
And he really hated Jews for whatever reason
So what
Just replace Jews with whoever you don't like when reading his Jew notes and it'll be an illuminating experience pinky promise
My favourite poet thought my ethnicity were all nigger tier, who gives a shit

>>16273278

I didn’t go into debt for my philosophy degree and leveraged my network in the philosophy department into a software tester job where having studied symbolic logic is useful

But yeah don’t go into debt for what I did. If you like logic I’d just tell you to study computing, but this idea that anyone who studied it just smokes pot all day and cries for money from the government is wrong

>>16273356
well on an aggregate, it doesn't seem like a sound investment actually. are u just stupid? or playing stupid?

>>16273278
>tfw can't get an apprenticeship
.... I keep getting told there's a shortage!!

>>16274287
Help pls

>>16273278
>believes people without a college degree are stupid
these people are the scum of the earth

>>16274287
It's like physics is framework for how material universe works, metaphysics is immaterial and material where you get into ontological dimensions like dualism vs monism vs pluralism and realism vs idealism, physicalism vs metaphysics (immaterial conception of reality). With a broad and true enough metaphysics you can have an opinion on everything from an overview including creation etc. You'll have a logic that follows, math, natural language, programming language... if it's good enough even an ai. Everyone has a framework for reality but most of ours are taken by contemporary biases and lead us down the same path and you can't criticize it which is why it's funny watching commies and nazis attack liberalism but effectively copy every liberal export imaginable (for example, worker bucks vs dollars as a means to get rid of capitalism etc). It all starts with a good metaphysics.

People who say philosophy is useless are the same retards that vote blue no matter what. They all have been stripped of any sense of individuality and lack any type of personality so they rely on the media, social media, television networks, and other type of entertainment to tell them what to think, say, do, and even write.
Also, sociology is straight up pseudo intellectualism and every “sociologist” I talk to all talk to you condescendingly. Anyone who doesn’t see the value in learning has never been challenged in their lives and are now dealing with anxiety and superficial shit like your fucking “outfit.”
All of you have untreated mental illnesses and autism. It’s insane you’re allowed to go outside, you fucking faggots.

>>16275556
Thanks for that nice explanation with a concrete example. I'll try to find an intro book on it cause it does seem interesting.

>>16274340
Then explain OP. Getting into art/philosophy as a profession isn't profitable

>>16275593
I'd look for a really good book or just start w plato>arostotle>parmenides/heraclitus then read a history of philosophy. The contemporary ones are really biased to formalism or some nihilistic crap.

I studied electrical engineering and philosophy in college. STEM to get a job, humanities for fun & enrichment.

>>16275636
I'm actually reading the earlier Greeks at the moment, so it's nice to know that I can continue along the Greek path. Thanks again :)

>>16273278
Like your hypochondriac skinny ass works in the trades. Apprenticships are challenging long hours, the trades are memed like every other rote life path and can be as soul sucking as academia. The real move is to live under bridges with a big stick and make people pay tolls. Fuck your surrogate activities.

>>16275898
based tollgater

The only point of university is to get on a graduate scheme that pays 50-80k. You can have fun, network, enjoy the huge and free library, etc.

You can get into finance, management consultancy, business analysis, or work as a SpAd to break into politics...

>>16273412
Correction, most real (analytic) philosophers come from math.

>>16274777
>Just replace Jews with whoever you don't like when reading his Jew notes and it'll be an illuminating experience pinky promise
So, replace them with Jews?

>>16273278
This sort of ridiculous opinion is what happens when you give the pleb the right to speak on an equal footing with actual human beings. Democracy was a mistake

>>16273278
>living to make money
Nah.

>>16273278
I studied philosophy and earn twice as much as Joe. Lol.

>>16276668
what's your occupation?

>>16273278
>>16273295
Reminder not to reply to low-effort bait threads.

>>16273414
>was going to do English lit
>pick urban planning
>mfw
A-at least I'll name some streets...

>>16273414
Having the highest salary of non-STEM majors is like being the tallest midget

>>16277173
>comparing active wage income in monetary currency
nvgmi

>>16273278
You'd be happy that philosophy exists when you're defending yourself in a court of law rather than having your head bashed in with a rock.

>>16277200
As a philosopher I must tell you that court trials existed before Socratese, hence the existance of Socratese's trial concerning his philosophy polluting the youth.

>>16276698
Lawyer

The smartest guy I know has a degree in philosophy. He is a brilliant entrepreneur, a billionaire, a tech rising star and I am proud to call him my friend.

>>16273312
>thinking you have to pay tens of thousands of dollars to some institution to “learn how to think”
Peak NPC

>>16277226
well, then you also, and perhaps longer hours, studied law, I suppose.

>>16273478
That's actually based, thanks for informing me.

>>16273278
I would beat the shit out of Jim.

>>16277198
poorcel cope

>>16277275
in other words
>not comparing passive capital income in qualities of political power
nvgmi

>>16277173
No, it absolutely isn't. Philosophy majors make more than most "STEM" majors. Not to mention Joe the handyman in the OP.

>>16273295
Academia is 100% about information and knowledge but neither of those things are truth.

>>16273278
I want to become a philosophy professor

>>16273278
That's a philosophical claim

>>16273414
Is that the median or average earnings?

>>16278572
Looks like median.

>>16273312
>dood in university you learn how to THINK!
peak brainlet

>>16278614
>economics graduate starting with a 200k salary
How?

>>16278667
daddy's executive board

>>16278667
Wall Street.

>>16278678
Some people do have it easy, don't they?

>>16278667
The bars represent median salary over the course of a career. Only the dots represent starting salary.

>>16273414
>>16278614
Most people who take philosophy in university are rich kids. They probably already have connections. Also it is worth considering that philosophy graduates are high IQ on average, up there with physics graduates, and since IQ correlates with income it is no surprise that they earn a lot. These two factors -- the wealth/connections and intelligence of philosophy graduates -- rather than the actual value of a philosophy degree is probably what makes them earn so much.

>>16278703
I see. I was under the impression that they were all distributions of starting salaries. Guess that's why a chart always needs a title.

>>16278614
These can't be bachelor's degrees unless they're exclusively including people who found industry employment afterward. I was physics and 75% of my class went straight to grad school, where the average stipend is about $20k.

>>16278614
>philosophy beats accounting
There is a God, and he is merciful.

>>16278667
bruh, read the graph again. Starting salary is 50k for economics.

>>16278704
>Most people who take philosophy in university are rich kids. They probably already have connections.
Total bullshit. The opposite is the case.

>Also it is worth considering that philosophy graduates are high IQ on average, up there with physics graduates, and since IQ correlates with income it is no surprise that they earn a lot.
You're assuming IQ is the causal driver.

>These two factors -- the wealth/connections and intelligence of philosophy graduates -- rather than the actual value of a philosophy degree is probably what makes them earn so much.
You're overestimating the "value of a degree" in general, like a lot of young people on /lit/. With the exception of academics, nobody applies or even remembers the specifics of what they learned in college. The advantage of Philosophy is that you actually learn how to think and reason logically. People who study more "practical" subjects usually walk away with no transferable wisdom at all.

>>16278714
FYI the source is the same as for the other chart: Payscale.com 2015 survey.

>>16273312
Math is the actual study of truth and logic.

>>16278721
>75% of my class went straight to grad school, where the average stipend is about $20k.
Being a grad student doesn't count as "employment" for purposes of the survey.

>>16278753
buuuuut it also give you autism.

>>16278753
Lol, no.

>>16278738
>Total bullshit. The opposite is the case.
No, working class/lower middle class people aren't usually comfortable placing themselves in crippling debt to get an unemployable degree, particularly one which has such a high intelligence barrier as philosophy. Only rich kids do that, with few exceptions.
>With the exception of academics, nobody applies or even remembers the specifics of what they learned in college
I mean the value of a degree in terms of getting a good-paying job. There is no question that degrees, particularly STEM degrees, are extremely valuable for that. But I don't buy the idea that employers are impressed by people with philosophy degrees.

>>16273414
Doubt this includes the unemployed. Its also prob counting people who went to law school afterwards as philosophy majors instead of law.

>>16278704
Physics and math majors tend to be the smartest, followed by philosophy

>>16278786
>No, working class/lower middle class people aren't usually comfortable placing themselves in crippling debt to get an unemployable degree
Are you even reading this thread? The data shows that Philosophy majors have stellar employment prospects.

>Only rich kids do that, with few exceptions.
Wrong. Rich kids study Economics, Finance, etc. to continue on the family tradition of sociopathy.

>I mean the value of a degree in terms of getting a good-paying job. There is no question that degrees, particularly STEM degrees
That data proves you wrong. Also, use of the acronym "STEM" is an indication you don't know what you're talking about.

>But I don't buy the idea that employers are impressed by people with philosophy degrees.
Employers generally don't give a fuck what your college major was unless you're in a highly vocational field.

>>16278778
again, the only comparable thing is physics, but even there they rely almost completely on math. math studies an incredibly abstract realm, which - - for some reason - - also happens to explain this reality. it is not limited by our intuition or 3D brains, for in math we study the infinite but with rigour and proof, and thus we actually make progress.

>>16273278
All sciences stem from philosophy. There's no science without epistemology.

>>16278796
Computer science majors have the most unemployed. Majors like education and nursing have the least unemployed.

>>16278816
Most philosophers also have a math or physics background.

>>16278796
>Doubt this includes the unemployed.
See chart related. Recent college graduates are those aged 22 to 27 with a bachelor's degree or higher who are not enrolled in further study. Majors in Physics, Math, Engineering, Computer Science, etc all have higher unemployment rates than Philosophy majors.

>>16278801
>math: 131
>physics: 130
>philosophy: 129
>everything else: 105

>>16274185
Chesterton is so based.

>>16278884
These whitepills are making my heart flutter

>>16274185
>https://www.chesterton.org/the-revival-of-philosophy-why/
Thanks anon

>>16278884
Damn, is the CompSci job-market that saturated in the US? Seems like they throw jobs at you in my area if you have a degree in those fields.

>>16273278
Jim should rape Joe to death and find a way to fiddle with his meter to get free energy.

>>16278614
I am too much of a brainlet to understand this graph. someone pls explain

>>16278811
>Are you even reading this thread? The data shows that Philosophy majors have stellar employment prospects.
Again, that is because philosophy students are rich kids/high IQ kids who get a decent salary in spite of their degree, not because of it. A philosophy degree is not employable in itself, like an engineering degree, for example, is.
>Employers generally don't give a fuck what your college major was unless you're in a highly vocational field.
What a retarded statement. If this were true, we would see no trends at all in salaries by major.

>>16273414
Reminder that this in no way describes the volume of jobs available to philosophy undergraduates. You could have very few making an annual 85,000 while the rest struggle to find jobs.

>>16278753
Lmfao no it isn't. Math logic is a discipline but truth is explained it doesn't come from math or logic. Logic is validity, soundness comes intuitively (from ontology from truth) and math is validity given axioms from logic.

>>16273542
Literally every person on every board claims they make 6 figures and runs their own business. Glad I'm in good companies. Although I wish there were more billionaires I could talk to :/. Gets lonely up here. Brb my model gf is calling
This is how pathetic you look like desperately trying to impress us.

>>16273278
Cringe boomer meme.