/lit/ - Literature

>>16255371
>Just doing what is in their own best interest, trading a few painful decades, for an eternity in paradise?
Yes.

>>16255371
>suffering for all eternity,

citation needed, not accepted: pedo popes

>>16255371
FROM WHAT MANGA IS THIS?

>>16255388
>citation needed
the bible

>>16255371
>Why is Christian hell suffering for all eternity, while heaven is eternal bliss
Because in heaven you get your own mommy gf who will always let you suck on her big milkers. In hell, you only get images of the men enjoying themselves in heaven.

>>16255391
the author is oda non, it's on sad panda somewhere

>>16255396
>In hell, you only get images of the men enjoying themselves in heaven.
brb, I have to call by bull, and then I'm jumping off the roof

>>16255385
How jewish.

>>16255393
it never says eternal suffering, it says the flame is eternal

>>16255503
Matthew 25:46
>And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

>>16255503
>flame is eternal
it sure is, lol

Christianity is quite possible the worst thing to ever happen to the West.

>>16255513
>Matthew 25:46
>aionion
>The literal meaning of this ancient Greek word is “age-long.” As Bruce says, “The strict meaning of [everlasting]: agelong, not everlasting.”

Translation error.

>>16255524
You wish, lol.

>>16255530
cope harder heretic.

>>16255524
pic related alone is worth more than everything your favourite non-christian western ideology ever produced

(C97) [Mousou Colosseum (Oda non)]

>>16255371
OOOOOOOOOOOOO FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

>>16255524
The prettiest flowers grow from the foulest shit, anon. Shinto and Buddhism are far better in every sense, but then India and Japan didn't put men on the moon and map the world, did they?

>>16255371
>Are they, perhaps, secretly egoists?
Most Christfags will openly admit that they're just full on egoists, but in the actual theology (I'm referring to Thomism) there is a transcendent component that you're missing. Heaven isn't just "a place where you live forever and get to suck on titties forever" as it is in Islam, it's a state as much as a place. It's purification from sin, and union with God (or rather, getting as close to God as you possibly can). It's not just "a place where you don't suffer", rather it's a state where you can't suffer.

Is it greedy to want this for yourself? I'd say yeah, but then letting go of that greed is part of what it takes to get there, as many mystics (including Aquinas, in his later years) would go on to believe. You can't divorce Christianity from the historical currents that gave rise to it, and that it swam in. To do so kills it. It's why Christianity is moribund: it tried to detach itself from history. It's like a shark, if it stops swimming, it dies.

>>16255547
>heretic
>KJV as the word of God

>>16255581
>union with God (or rather, getting as close to God as you possibly can). It's not just "a place where you don't suffer", rather it's a state where you can't suffer.
Huh? Then did Jesus suffer on the cross or not?

>>16255371
Read Kierkegaard. To ahve faith is to believe absolutely that everything suffered and surrendered in life will be regained a thousand fold in reuniting with God.

>>16255631
So, it's just spiritual hedonism? Irrational egoism? Be selfless, for your own selfish gain? Sacrifice the most important thing (yourself) so you get everything that you desire?

>>16255561
>not fearing creepy Buddha

>>16255581
>but then India and Japan didn't put men on the moon and map the world, did they?
Where's the correlation? You think if it wasn't for Christianity, we would never achieve anything?

>>16255631
Are you talking about the teleological suspension of the ethical in Fear and Trembling? I've only read that and the Sickness Unto Death, so if you have a more direct passage, I'd be interested in reading it.

From my own experience, Kierk's struck me as a blending a strange mix of mysticism with individualism - it was a tone I really liked.

>>16255524
>dips fedora

>>16255530
that's like saying when chinks say ten thousand years they don't mean moreorless forever (they do)

>>16255685
It could also mean "very long" or you know, "for a a segment of time, an age", or "a world" in a spatial context. The original was in Aramaic anyway, so who knows.

Hell is the inability to love others.

You're already there, anon.

>>16255642
You sound like a boring pseud

>>16255656
>Kierk's struck me as a blending a strange mix of mysticism with individualism
That's exactly what it is

>>16255685
like plato in phaedrus on the period of 10 thousand years of the cycle of reincarnation, did he mean one would reincarnate forever then? many other eastern traditions also referred to a period of 10 thousand years, they didn't mean eternity but a universal cycle.

I don't understand your point at all. It's fairly simplistic.
>Material good is rewarded with metaphysical good.
>Material evil is punished with metaphysical evil.
Is it selfish to think good actions should beget a reward? I don't think so.

>>16255655
>You think if it wasn't for Christianity, we would never achieve anything?
Obviously.

>>16255773
Are you jewish?

>>16255899
No. I'm not even a theist.

>>16255524
t. kike

>>16255956
then find another thread, punk

>>16255642
everything is egoism if you're pedantic enough.

>>16255581
>Shinto and Buddhism are far better in every sense, but then India and Japan didn't put men on the moon and map the world, did they?
They didn't advance the technological agenda and lead the world to mass suffering? I'd say they're based.

>>16256303
God himself attends to “God’s cause,” which we are called to serve. And you do not conceal the Lord’s doings, either. Now, what is his cause? Has he, as is demanded of us, made an alien cause, the cause of truth or love, his own? You are shocked by this misunderstanding, and you instruct us that God’s cause is indeed the cause of truth and love, but that this cause cannot be called alien to him, because God is himself truth and love; you are shocked by the assumption that God could be like us poor worms in furthering an alien cause as his own. “Should God take up the cause of truth if he were not himself truth?” He cares only for his cause, but, because he is all in all, therefore all is his cause! But we, we are not all in all, and our cause is altogether little and contemptible; therefore we must “serve a higher cause.” — Now it is clear, God cares only for what is his, busies himself only with himself, thinks only of himself, and has only himself before his eyes; woe to all that is not well-pleasing to him. He serves no higher person, and satisfies only himself. His cause is — a purely egoistic cause.

How is it with mankind, whose cause we are to make our own? Is its cause that of another, and does mankind serve a higher cause? No, mankind looks only at itself, mankind will promote the interests of mankind only, mankind is its own cause. That it may develop, it causes nations and individuals to wear themselves out in its service, and, when they have accomplished what mankind needs, it throws them on the dung-heap of history in gratitude. Is not mankind’s cause — a purely egoistic cause?

I have no need to take up each thing that wants to throw its cause on us and show that it is occupied only with itself, not with us, only with its good, not with ours. Look at the rest for yourselves. Do truth, freedom, humanity, justice, desire anything else than that you grow enthusiastic and serve them?

But only look at that Sultan who cares so lovingly for his people. Is he not pure unselfishness itself, and does he not hourly sacrifice himself for his people? Oh, yes, for “his people.” Just try it; show yourself not as his, but as your own; for breaking away from his egoism you will take a trip to jail. The Sultan has set his cause on nothing but himself; he is to himself all in all, he is to himself the only one, and tolerates nobody who would dare not to be one of “his people.”

And will you not learn by these brilliant examples that the egoist gets on best? I for my part take a lesson from them, and propose, instead of further unselfishly serving those great egoists, rather to be the egoist myself.

God and mankind have concerned themselves for nothing, for nothing but themselves. Let me then likewise concern myself for myself, who am equally with God the nothing of all others, who am my all, who am the only one.

>>16256336
case in point.

>>16256365
>uhh I don't like this so I'll just dismiss it as "pedantic", ignore it even though it's true

>>16256373
if you say that a Sultan doesn't sacrifice himself for his people just because he punishes people who step out of line, then you are delusional. if you can make any case of morality into an act of egoism no matter the intention then it's a vacuous framework. "no that soldier didn't put himself on the grenade to save his comrades, he did it to be remembered as a hero". any supererogatory action becomes an act of egoism. it's just dishonesty.

>>16255371
>Boys who suck on my boobs are good boys
I've always hated how awkward Japanese translations sound. I don't care how poorly the sentence is constructed in the original language, would it kill the translator to write it in a way that conveys the same meaning but isn't completely robotic and awful?

>>16256499
That sentence is brilliant though.

>>16255998
t. bdsm lover

>>16255371
Why don't we just create this heaven on the real earth
Use genetic modification technology to engineer humans so that women are all thick amazons who get sexually turned on by boys sucking their tits, and men are all small cute shotas with big dicks who love to suck on the mommy gf's tits while fucking her hard with his big shota cock.
This is completely in line with biology and physics.

>>16255371
You nailed it. Christianity is crypto-hedonism. Only problem is, their imagined paradise doesn't even exist.

>>16255628
I'm unsure what you're getting at.

>>16255655
Not at all, but we are Faustian men, and Faustian men only exist because of Christianity, so if it were not for Christianity we wouldn't exist to do anything, so actually yes. This is not to say that if his name was "Jeff" instead of "Jesus" that we wouldn't have put men on the moon, or that if there were four persons in the quaternity instead of three in the trinity that we wouldn't have mapped the world, however. Don't mistake the forest for the trees.

>It's a gaytheists use fourth grade sophistries to attack theological concepts beyond their grasp episode.
Every day with you fucking faggots. The end goal is not pleasure, but understanding. You trust God thtough life's trials not brcause of the reward, but because he is Truth. Heaven is being united with God's order, Hell is a consequence of disorientation.
>but my poor suffering damned
Emotional argument, faggot. That's why Christians are told to spread the word.

>>16257014
The only problem is you're an edgy retard.

>>16257560
>>16257571
That's all well and good, but that's not what the majority of Christians in the US believe. Don't like it? Go evangelize your brethren. Atheists are attacking the beliefs of Christians, because it's what they believe. Don't like that? Go change what other Christians believe. The fact that YOU have it right is irrelevant, because OP isn't talking to you. How do I know? Because he's not attacking what you believe, he's attacking what other Christians do.
>but i'm right and they're wrong!
That's great and all, but they either don't know that, or disagree. Go take it up with them.

>>16255503
Some will say: The fire, but not the punishment of the damned is everlasting. Such the language of the incredulous, but it is folly.

For what other purpose would God make this fire eternal, than to chastise the reprobate, who are immortal? But, to take away every shadow of doubt, the Scriptures, in many other places, say, that not only the fire, but the punishment, of the damned is eternal. ”And these, ”says Jesus Christ, “shall go into ever lasting punishment.” (Matt. xxv. 46.)

Again we read in St. Mark, ”Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.” (ix. 43.) St. John says: ”And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever.” (Apoc. xvi. 11.) “Who,” says St. Paul, ”shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction.” (2 Thess. i. 9.) These are not opinions controverted among theologians; they are dogmas of faith clearly revealed in the sacred Scriptures. ”Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire.” (Matt. xxv. 41.)

>>16257599
>That's not what the majority believes
And how exactly do you know this?

>>16257571
Not an argument.

>>16257625
Get off 4chan and go talk to people.

I have never once heard a decent argument to the question of If God is all Good, and all powerful then why does he permit evil to exist? Every forum or video I find on the subject just says "well without God there would be no good" or a bunch of other shit that is just distracting from the fact that they won't answer the question.

The only way to win this game as a Christian is not to play, so they answer "well that's not for us to know" and then proceed to say that God is unknowable. Which is utter horse shit, because there is no answer to this question that doesn't end in him being unwilling or unable.

The best answer was from a Mormon, who believes in Exaltation, who said that in order for the human soul to become a god is must manually go through these things, not just be spawned in like he Angels.

>>16257635
That won't give me a big enough data pool to make a definitive judgement. You're just projecting to make your case.

>>16257634
Where was your argument?
>>16257640
Read De Maistre and stop being a fag.

>>16257728
>Where was your argument?
Christians are crypto-hedonists. They're doing it all for the imagined pleasures of heaven. Sad.

>>16257745
Yiu don't know their motivations or if Heaven is real or not. You're just a bitter faggot.

>>16257640
>in order for the human soul to become a god is must manually go through these things
Why did God set it up that way? He's all-powerful so he could skip all the bullshit if he wanted.

>>16257756
>Heaven is real or not
Lmao. Take your meds, schizo.

>>16257756
>Yiu don't know their motivations
Of course I do. Everyone does. Are you retarded?

>>16257719
I grew up with these people, anon.

>>16257640
There's many Christian solutions to the Problem of Evil. Look it up.

>>16255371
>why yes I'm gonna coom to that, how could you tell?

>>16255371
Are the boys good because they suck on boobs? Or do they suck on boobs because they are good?

>>16255371
The typical musings of a sinner.

Christians follow Christ because in emulating him they come closer to being what they originally were before the fall. In ascending to Heaven, they become spiritual beings that are completely harmonious with God, free from the tribulations of the flesh.

The people suffering in hell are irredeemable. Their existence in hell means that, even if their suffering could be ended, they would eventually turn to rebellion against God because that is in their very nature. In Christian theology, the damned are inherently evil, and why would one ever assist evil things bent on their corruption and destruction?

>>16257945
Burden of proof is on you who assert, faggot. Make a point or go back to the Darkness prepared for you and your master.

>>16258793
>In ascending to Heaven, they become spiritual beings
bzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong

ever heard of the Resurrection, LARPer?

>>16255371
There are two ways to expose a metaphysical system: literally or allegorically. The second one is what you call a religion and it is directed to uneducated people that can only think practical and concrete notions. If you tell these people there is no concrete reward for their sacrifices they won't do them. To some people if you tell them " Every habit turns into a necessity" they might agree with it, they might repeat it, but there is no way these will have a major influence in their lives or in their system of though. Their intelligence is purely nominal and their lifestyle choices are based on pain and pleasure, like animals and women. That's why you have to tell them there is a lot of money and women waiting in heaven if they dont fall for Ixion's unending spinning wheel of desire. That way they will live an ascetic way of life and they will feel actually better with themselves. But if they realise the reward is a lie, they will follow their ultimately insatiable needs and become more touchy everyday and every tiny thing will turn into a nagging annoyance and become unable to tolerate people who think different from them. Is as if they can't considerate their state of mind, the way their souls feel about staff. They look for rewards even if those rewards don't make them actually happy. Because happiness is an abstract thing, even though they feel it they can't think it.

>>16258807
I did. Your conception of religion, and indeed America and Americans, and Christianity, is an entirely intellectual endeavor. You read posts on 4chan (not books) and formulate your views of the world off of that. But these posts aren't real, they're just lights on the screen. They're a simulacra, a figment. You base your ideas of this dreamworld you inhabit. You have no idea what Americans think, and you don't really care, because the world off the screen is less real to you than the world on the screen. You care about things like "Sedevacantism", "Universalism", and "Integralism", and if you brought up either of these subjects to the average American they'd look at you like you were purple and speaking Mandarin.

>>16258847
It does not say purely spiritual beings in the Bible, I'll admit.

But in Corinthians 15:42 it does say "body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption." Which does not imply that faithful Christians should burn in hell with sinners.
>>16258904
You don't know anything about me.

>>16255371
Suffering is not the meaning of life. The meaning of life does not concern tthis life, it concerns the higher life in God, a higher life achived through devotion. Suffering is not what is worshipped, rather the Christian shows that it can be overcome through Christ

>>16257728
>Read this book so that I will have won the argument

No retard, make your own argument.

>>16257758
Yeah this scenario makes it so that God isn't all powerful when it comes to the Exaltation of other gods.

>>16257945
You didn't read my post smooth brain I just said that I did look it up and I have found no actual answer.

>>16256942
t. pleb among plebs

>>16255371
The good is pursued not because it is a struggle, but because it is the good. In life, we wage a war against sin and death, but these will end. It's not a bargain for years of pain, it's a constant pursuit of that which lies above the troubles of our mortal lives. Doing the good does not cease to be an effort in heaven, but our wills and abilities will rise to meet that challenge- or be forever aligned against it.
>>16257640
>>16257758
God is all-powerful, but will not contradict His own nature. It is impossible to allow for sin in a temporal world with no effects on the sinless while maintaining non-contradiction. Therefore God permits the evil that the freely chosen good may come. William Lane Craig makes this argument in more detail, and well enough that the question can be considered solved. You're not going to get a comprehensive presentation of his arguments on an image board, though.

>>16255371
"Suffering is good" is something Christians only say when they're loosing. When they're winning, they say that Yahweh wants them to enjoy life. Christianity isn't really about suffering, it's about making other people suffer when you have the whip hand and burbling about "persecution" when you don't.

>>16255391
https://nhentai.net/g/310898/
There you go Anon

>>16260588
The translation is awful but the illustrations are hot

>>16260328
So you're saying that evil exists so that we may have the opportunity to chose good? Okay, so natural evil (according to doctrines) like floods, storms, massive fires, etc, exists regardless of choice.

And also, that's a dumb as fuck reason. If a child gets raped did they choose evil? Why even allow us to chose evil if he can make it so that we can all just do good, which being that he is outside of the universe he has the capacity to do bring about a scenario where everyone just makes the choice to not do evil.

That's not an answer really, because it means that he is not all good.

>>16260878
If God created the world without suffering, then he would be evil. If he created a world without our free will, then he would be evil.

>>16261267
>If God created the world without suffering, then he would be evil.
Why?

>>16261267
>If god created the world without suffering then he would be evil

Wrong

>If he created the world without free will, he would be evil

Would he? He already knows anything and everything that will happen, so it's fatalism. So do we even really have free will

>>16255581
>Shinto and Buddhism are far better in every sense

>>16261309
You only survive through suffering. If God makes you suffer then he's making you survive. Why do you think pain exists in the first place? Would a life without pain even be worth living?
>>16261341
Knowledge of past, present, and future affairs does not imply a causal link with said affairs. This is just a category error.

>>16261374
>Would a life without suffering really be worth living

Yes? Is there suffering in heaven then? The fuck do you mean you can't survive without suffering?? And even if that were true, he made us like that.

>Just because he knows it will happen doesn't mean that he caused it

He created the universe, knowing all of this would happen. He is objectively the cause of all of it.

>>16261341
>If god created the world without suffering he would be evil

Garden of Eden??

>>16260328
>It is impossible to allow for sin in a temporal world with no effects on the sinless
Why not? That makes no sense. And why would he allow for sin in the first place?

>>16261355
Where do you live you little tranny janny faggot? Fuck yourself you stupid nigger.

>>16255393
Ecc 9:5-6,10
>5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
>6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
>10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might,for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

God won't force you into heaven against your will. A man who does not love God should not be forced to spend eternity with Him. So the alternative, or the default position, is oblivion. The New Testament only hypes up the finality of Sheol/Hell, and to a Christian, an eternity without God is suffering.

>Are they, perhaps, secretly egoists?
Secretly? How many Christians have you seen take delight in the fact that nonbelievers are going to burn in hell? There's nothing a christian loves more than knowing they are in the big club and knowing others arent

>>16261539
lol true. christian narcissism. basically anti-jesus.