/lit/ - Literature

>>16227715
>considered high art/non degen.
no it's not lol

>>16227718
Yes it is, by people whose aesthetic judgment matters, i.e. people who aren't internet nazis.

>>16227715
You've been Karred, OP.

>>16227715
Magic realism

>>16227718
Jazz is high art lol. What are you talking about?

My man Tommy P

>>16227737
Please explain this meme. I've seen gifs of this woman, another one, and AOC with shimmering particle effects on them on /lit/ in the past few days.

>>16227738
>>16227734
You are being swept up in cultural affirmative action. No one believes jazz is high art for real. They say it on the radio for good boy points.

>>16227734
i.e people with bad taste i agree with

>>16227738
>Jazz is high art lol. What are you talking about?
It's closer to rock than it is to classical. It's only considered high art by people really into jazz who want to feel good about themselves

>>16227770
You're being swept up by retards on /pol/ lmao

>>16227715
Why, the racist novels of Louis-Ferdinand Celine, of course!

>>16227828
Why are you bringing politics into this?

I think what you are getting at is that jazz is made by black people, rather than by the uncool white intellectuals who usually produce what is known as "high art".

Is there a literary equivalent? Not really.

In the 1950s the Beat poets were heavily inspired by jazz. Their poetry involves a lot of improvisation and free association. Jack Kerouac describes going to jazz concerts and idolizing the performers. Allen Ginsberg's poem "Howl" and Kerouac's novel "On the Road" are the obvious starting points if you are interested in that movement. But I think, fundamentally, what the Beats were doing is not really the literary equivalent of jazz. They were a bunch of fanboys paying homage to jazz. I don't think it really answers your question.

You could also look at literature written by the same sort of people who created jazz. The poems of Langston Hughes, a black poet of the "Harlem Renaissance", have predictably been compared to jazz. But personally, I don't think there is anything jazz-like about his poetry at all.

Those are the two obvious answers to your question but neither is really satisfactory. Putting aside the genre of jazz, it seems your criteria are: improvisatory, experimental, not too academic/intellectual, but still intelligent and complex. The trouble is that written literature is almost all academic/intellectual by its very nature. A novelist trying to sound "jazzy" is always going to be cringe (e.g., Junot Diaz). In the end, any attempt to liken a particular literary style to jazz music is going to be a huge reach, amounting to little more than a critical hot-take. You could liken virtually any innovative or experimental writer to a jazz musician, but it wouldn't really answer your question.

>>16227715
I wouldn't call jazz high art. It's animalistic and certainly degenerate, but in a good or "liberating" way. You need it from time to time but its popularity in a given culture could be used as a measurement for decline.

>>16227865
>>>/pol/

you have to go back

>>16228114
I'm not from /pol/ but if it helps you to think so go ahead

Is there a more pseud opinion than disliking jazz?

>>16228173
liking only Miles Davis's "Kind of Blue"

>>16228173
Thinking Jazz is better than Baroque.

>>16227715
>>16227734
>>16227738
>>16228173
Why are there so many wiggers on this board? Bet you think rap is comparable to actual poetry

>>16228173
Intellectualizing jazz or believing it to have some sort of spiritual power. The only appropriate attitude to have towards jazz is to just appreciate it as pop music.

>>16228173
thinking jazz = the holocaust

jazz is crude chord spam, sorry, not art

>>16227715
if the jazz you're listening to is "funky" and makes you "feel happy", you have a terrible taste in jazz

>>16228222
>He thinks I'm white (shudder)
Wrong

>>16227715
Hegel

>>16228411
blocks your path

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d27JKz4VW0A

>>16227802
t: knows nothing about baroque structures like the Passacaglia and Chaconne and contrapuntal techniques like stretto, inversion, invertible counterpoint etc. in the music of Charles Mingus

>>16228437
Based.

>>16227997
Best reply in thread.

>>16228437
not interesting in listening to anything from the rioter community

>>16228463
Bebop was heavily influenced by Baroque music, but it is ultimately a vulgarized form of it, closer to something like rock music as a listened experience and in social function, both of which are vastly more important than the theoretical qualities they feature.

>>16228558
cry more, adorno

>>16227715

>>16227734
I used to think jazz was high art until I realized it was just an edgy take on music composition.

>>16227828
You seem to be conflating jazz with some sort of black people thing and deeming any other opinion of it as some sort of politically motivated comment. You’re dumb.

>>16228173
Yes. Thinking jazz is high art.

>>16228230
this is so ridiculous, you know nothing about free improv, post-bop, or third stream, they are quite literally non-pop music...why drop your opinion when it's so uneducated?

OP, i'm sorry this happened to your entirely reasonable thread about literature, in all seriousness pynchon wrote a lot about jazz figures in V. and a lot of his work and that of other pomo folks obviously draw inspiration from that deconstructionist style of composition

>>16227734
>second post in his own thread
>immediately complains and cries about natsees
it might just be you seeing things anon. criticizing a music genre doesnt say shit about political beliefs

>>16227734
Why are you an Antisemit? You know Adorno despised Jazz, right? Are you calling him a nazi perhabs?

>>16228935
No amount of theory formalism will change how this music was produced, consumed, and experienced by society. Jazz in every incarnation served the purposes of popular music and is marred by qualities designed to make it eminently consumable, even at its most experimental. Dumb opinions like yours only demonstrate that theory is useless for understanding music beyond playing and composition.

>>16228974
>Jazz in every incarnation served the purposes of popular music and is marred by qualities designed to make it eminently consumable,
this is just factually untrue though. by your definition it sounds like any music made to be heard and consumed by an audience is pop music, so literally all recorded music...what an useless definition

>>16228974
>Dumb opinions like yours only demonstrate that theory is useless for understanding music beyond playing and composition.
also what is this total non sequitur lmao

>>16228974
>the quality of an art form is solely determined by the degree to which it contributes to the Revolution
Fuck off, Adorno. Go "listen" to some more Schopenhauer; it's the perfect punishment for someone like you.

>>16228508
>>16227997
it really is. informed and reasonable. good comparisons. answered the question.

>>16228908
yeah the only consistency in jazz is the kind of instruments used to make it, aside from that it's no different from experimental rock or blues.

>>16227997
Literally the only worthwhile response in the thread. Retards arguing about the "artistry" of jazz should be ritually fucked in the ass as punishment.

To contribute something, I find it hard to imagine what jazz would be like in literature, esp. with something like Sun Ra which is just its own thing, impossible to replicate. The NY Art Quartet has a 'song' on their self titled which is basically just reciting Amir Baraka's poem Black Dada Nihilismus. Maybe you'll find something interesting there. Otherwise, take a look at Sun Ra's poems

>>16227828
>Adorno is a /pol/ poster
lol

>>16228935
Jazz sounds like duck quacking and horns honking in traffic. It's not music.

>>16229206
>>16229254
>>16228411
this is what people mean by white supremacists decide the canon.

>>16227997
Racist

>>16229334
Although I disagree with the racism ITT I tried to start a thread about jazz in /mu/ and got zero replies.

>>16229112
I'm not that extreme, but I do think it's fair to criticize music for contributing nihilistic consumerism, hedonism, and alienation. Schoenberg (which is whom I assume you meant) was the only true musical genius of the 20th century.
>>16228992
I do believe that today more or less all culture is popular culture at this point. It would be absurd to think of someone like Philip Glass as anything other than a glorified pop musician, and I agree that much of it has to do with the manner in which recorded music has changed the way we experience the art form. But what is interesting is that among the competing types of music which existed, why jazz became the basis of most popular music for decades to come. I think it is precisely because jazz had the qualities which made it conducive to mass appeal built in. It completely superseded earlier pop music in its marketability; it wasn't even much of a contest.
>>16229011
I was just telling him what his musical outlook was good for after explaining what was beyond its limits.
>>16229206
Sun Ra is perhaps the silliest man to have ever lived. How dull do you have to be to think there's any depth to his New Age nonsense. Also ,reading

>>16229621
>Schoenberg (which is whom I assume you meant)
Jesus, fucking, Christ, I'm embarrassed, no sarcasm whatsoever. In my defense, I'd just woken up, but that's still brutal. I was going to draw up some witty reply, but there's no coming back from that now. Good game, anon.

>>16229621
>why jazz became the basis of most popular music for decades to come
how is this borne out in any way?
also your definition of popular culture as all culture renders it an utterly useless definition, as i said before. not to mention you're sidestepping your previous argument that all jazz is somehow " marred by qualities designed to make it eminently consumable, even at its most experimental." i'd love to hear you substantiate this.

>>16229621
>>16229657
bump

>>16229234
Uh.. yes? Have you read him? There's not even anything cryptic about the reactionary in Adorno.

>>16227715
>Though deeply religious, his family was not formally associated with any Christian church or sect. Blount had few or no close friends in high school but was remembered as kind-natured and quiet, an honor roll student, and a voracious reader. He took advantage of the Black Masonic Lodge as one of the few places in Birmingham where African Americans had unlimited access to books. Its collection on Freemasonry and other esoteric concepts made a strong impression on him.

Sun Ra is probably the most /lit/ jazz musician.

>>16230111
amazing...probably even smarter than guenon

>>16229621
Afrofuturism is not New Age though (and really I don't think that anything black can be New Age). If you mean the music itself, then probably only his period of free jazz can be vaguely categorized as in that trend and even then he actively distanced himself from that crowd while making that sort of music.

I enjoy Sun Ra because of his originality, creativity, and disavowal of established form, in terms of music and not persona. Coincidentally, I think this is the benchmark for good musicianship in the 20th century, although if you think Schoenberg is the best of the century then probably there's no way you will agree with this (and that's alright).

>>16227734
>>16227718
>>16227715
Jazz is just the decadence of composition which is itself an expression of the decadence of the artist. In fact, the majority of jazz is either immediate composition (improvisation), or non-composition ("free" improvization). As such, it is a low art.

>>16231063
define low and high in this context
and are you familiar with third stream?

>>16230048
Cultural conservatism does not entail fascism, nationalism, or authoritarianism. 'The Authoritarian Personality' is a blistering indictment of the /pol/ mindset.

>>16228463
We both know that the planned compositions of third-stream Charles Mingus is to a great degree an exception in the history of jazz.

did u dudes watch space is the place yet? it's p rad in a 70s high as hell kind of way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8nppTSY-Rs

>>16227997
>In the 1950s the Beat poets were heavily inspired by jazz. Their poetry involves a lot of improvisation and free association. Jack Kerouac describes going to jazz concerts and idolizing the performers. Allen Ginsberg's poem "Howl" and Kerouac's novel "On the Road" are the obvious starting points if you are interested in that movement. But I think, fundamentally, what the Beats were doing is not really the literary equivalent of jazz. They were a bunch of fanboys paying homage to jazz. I don't think it really answers your question.
What an embarrassment for people who love jazz! The degeneracy of their object of affection is layed out in the most damning way by comparing them to the lowest state of composition in literature, the beats. What's next, comparing jazz to pop art?

>>16231089
naked lunch is like jazz

charlie parker is literally a character in V.

>>16228089
That is hilarious. Jazz is liberating and natural in the same way that fucking a child is liberating and natural. The formula of the 20th century: that vulgarity is natural. This reminds me of Nietzsche's satire of the Wagnerite defending Wagner:
>Passion—or the acrobatic feats of ugliness on the tight-rope of enharmonic—My friends, let us dare to be ugly! Wagner dared it! Let us heave the mud of the most repulsive harmonies undauntedly before us. We must not even spare our hands! Only thus, shall we become natural.…

>>16228935
>deconstructionist style of composition
The deconstructionist style of composition is the absense of composition. What an embarrassment to be a fan of jazz!

>>16231103
>Jazz is liberating and natural in the same way that fucking a child is liberating and natural.
So you're saying Lolita is the literary equivalent of jazz? Not to bad.

>This reminds me of Nietzsche's satire of the Wagnerite defending Wagner
Nietzsche was diagnosed as a clinical wanker. Good thing Wagner was looking out for him and got him the help he needed.

>>16227715
Leave. Now.

>>16228089
>its popularity in a given culture could be used as a measurement for decline
weird that jazz peaked in the 50s when America was at it's most dominant both economically and militarily then, oh unless you meant the inverse, like the less jazz it has the more degenerate it is

morrison, ellison, gayl jones

>>16231099
naked lunch is like white trash fucking in their trailers on heroin. not like jazz at all.

>>16231112
there is a lot of ground between composition and absence of composition. if you knew anything about the last 70 years of classical music you'd know this is precisely what the foremost composers in the genre are interested in exploring. what an embarrassment to be this woefully uneducated!

>>16228974
So... you want an even more experimental form of music? That is, you don't dislike jazz because of it's anti-composition, it's laziness in organization, but instead because it has not "liberated" itself enough, that there is still too much organization in the finished product? I suggest you listen to static noise, then.

>>16229206
>Black Dada Nihilismus
Of course the musicisan of anti-composition would find this poem worthy of being reproduced.

>>16231103
I disagree, it's more like vulgarity is the perfect means to achieve transvaluation of form. A lot of the times it's used on an ad hoc basis, shining example of this being Throbbing Gristle. In fact, it's very rare, imo, to see the type of musicians you're referring to talking about nature at all

>>16227715
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09LgkX6_ebU

Malcolm X

>>16231099
I agree. Though, if I appreciated jazz more, I certainly wouldn't admit it, because I would be embarrassed to.

>>16231130
why did ornette coleman do the soundtrack for the movie then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ytLpLnQO1c

>>16231152
You completely missed my point.

>>16231118
No, I am saying de Sade or the beats are the literary equivalent of jazz. The tidiness and freedom under the law present in Nabakov is the opposite of jazz. Nabakov was, also, not displaying this subject matter as natural and liberatory, and this should be obvious if you've read it to completion.

>>16231146
>the musician of anti composition
Who? Do you mean a type or a particular musician?

>>16231126
>weird that jazz peaked in the 50s when America was at it's most dominant both economically and militarily then, oh unless you meant the inverse, like the less jazz it has the more degenerate it is
Do you see 1950s America as a model for morality? Don't you think a preoccupation with economy (and a military to secure that economy) is already decadent in itself?

>>16231137
>if you knew anything about the last 70 years of classical music you'd know this is precisely what the foremost composers in the genre are interested in exploring
I know. I am saying they are all worthless degenerates dedicated to non-composition, precisely because they are unable to compose. They then justified their complete failures with endless discourses, meanings, and sermons, to hide their complete and utter failure to produce anything of worth. This eradication of standards was done in the guise of "liberation", of a "return to nature", with nature made equivalent to vulgarity. You are an enemy of art if you do not regard "artists" worshiping non-art and non-composition as non-artists.

>>16227715
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_music

>>16231185
I am referring to jazz artists, most notably the late jazz artists.

>>16231227
It is quite odd that the Nazi's would include Mendelssohn. Yes, he was jewish, but he was still an exceptional musician.

>>16231216
hmm, why do no actual artists agree with you, i wonder...
don't you ever stop to think of how similar you sound to every reactionary cultural conservative who once shat on the now widely regarded great works of the canon?
i certainly would in your position :^]

>>16231251
Funny, since you limit "actual" art to art in which composition is not present. Your "actual" artists are worthless. All of them combined couldn't live up to the work an artist who actually bothered to compose. I would take one of the latter for a million of the former.

>>16231251
Tolstoy isn't an actual artist? Whistler isn't an actual artist? Nietzsche isn't an actual artist? The critics who never saw the light of the 20th century had no engagement in art?

In order for a culture to grow and innovate, it must navigate between the the Scylla of stagnation and the Charybdis of corruption. That is, it must invent something both new and beautiful -- something that is neither a repetition of what has come before, nor merely a subversion or disfigurement of it.

>>16231251
>reactionary cultural conservative
Notice how you prop up the movement of composition into non-composition just because it is new. So if I tortured you, and then you complained, I could call you a reactionary aesthetic conservative and you would have to shut up because that is a decent argument to you.

>>16231285
my point is no one in the field you're trying to hard to defend actually thinks this way. it's kind of absurd how little self-awareness you possess on the matter

>>16231297
they all died long before the period which we are discussing anon. i understand what you're saying but it's not really relevant here. imagine how a great artist like tolstoy would respond in the modern age; would he write anna karenina again? no, he couldn't possibly. it's simply not the reality we live in anymore.
not to mention nietzsche's response to kant had a big impact on the development of indeterminacy as a mode of composition in the first place.

>>16231309
i can't even begin to parse what point you're trying to make here.

>>16231251
>widely regarded great works
Oh, they are widely regarded as great? Better shut up then. Would you jump off a bridge if it was widely regarded as great, too? You probably would.

>>16231318
do you understand the waters you are jumping into friend? my point is this other anon is fetishizing art which was once inflammatory and "low", regarded in much the same way as the so called "anti-art" he's denigrating currently. it is merely his placement in time which allows him these value judgments, and were he to be born 200 years later he would likely argue the exact same thing while defending the likes of these "anti-artists" tooth and nail.

>>16231318
Mom grade argumentation boys, the best /lit/ has to offer

>>16231315
>my point is no one in the field you're trying to hard to defend actually thinks this way
Yes, they do, as you can see from my post here: >>16231297
>they all died long before the period which we are discussing anon
Same argument, of "progress". When will you learn that new doesn't equal good?
>i understand what you're saying but it's not really relevant here
It is extremely relevant. You only want to make it irrelivant so as to ignore the obvious degeneracy of the artist.
>it's simply not the reality we live in anymore.
I am going to torture you, and, when you complain that you want free, am going to say to you: "sorry, but that simply isn't the reality you live in anymore".
>not to mention nietzsche's response to kant had a big impact on the development of indeterminacy as a mode of composition in the first place
Not to meantion the misunderstanding of*, since he makes a clear critique of degenerate art in the case of Wagner. He would be disgusted by you and by the people you are defending.
>i can't even begin to parse what point you're trying to make here.
Of course you can't. If you could, you would have gave up responding to me and fled the thread.

>>16231333
Even if it does sound like something a mom would say, it is a completely valid critque of the "herd-instinct", or whatever other name you would like to give it, which the idiot I am talking to is attempting to prop his advocation of the absence of composition as superior to composition.

>>16231348
this is not the discussion i wish to have at all. you have misunderstood every point on every front. it seems you think context doesn't matter for the artist; this is patently absurd. a composer stepping onto the scene after shotakovich cannot mimic shostakovich; progress is imperative. innovation is the source of great art and the pride of the great artist. you don't understand this very simple thing.

my last attempt to reach you; i am not arguing for the quality or greatness of these artists. i am simply stating their necessity. they and their work exists because they cannot do anything but to move their art forward; they are worthless otherwise. a very simple example was listed here >>16231315 with the modern tolstoy idea. how is one to simply rewrite the greats? it would be meaningless and no one would pay attention. this is not an argument for subjective value, merely a statement of fact.

>>16231329
That is not true, because poor composition is different from non-composition.

>>16231389
"non-composition" is the language of the illiterate. you're simply unfamiliar with the modern processes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleatoric_music#:~:text=Aleatoric%20music%20(also%20aleatory%20music,of%20its%20performer(s).
one small example.

>>16231386
You have not progressed art into something higher. You have destroyed it. See the current state of painting, jazz, and literature. This is thanks to types like yourself.
> it seems you think context doesn't matter for the artist; this is patently absurd
You do not need to mimic your current peers in order to be an artist. But this is generous, since it is to admit the people that you are defending are artists. If you do not compose, you are not an artist. Simple as.

>>16231401
I would think free association is the language of the illiterate, and noise music is the sound of the emotionally dumb, and that abstract expressionism is the product of the blind.

Strauss makes me feel happy and soulful
What’s your favourite anons? I can’t choose between Vienna Woods and The Bat

>>16231409
>>16231414
but these are mere value judgments. it is sad how little you are willing to engage with the actual ideas at play. you remind me of a certain paul joseph watson, maybe you are familiar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANA8SI_KvqI

>If you do not compose, you are not an artist. Simple as.
it is absurd to see you, an anonymous poster on 4chan handwaving away the last 70 years of development in art. maybe one day you will see it as i do. and as your dead heroes surely would have.

>>16228222
Lil Ugly Mane was the best poet of the 2010s

>>16227734
Based

>>16227715
Great Gatsby idk maybe

>>16231162
because cronenberg paid him to

>>16227715
No matter how hard you try, nothing. Written will match something heard, experienced by the flesh, actualized in and of itself, with no interpretation needed. In truth, not literature will match in music since these forms of art are inherently not on equal playing fields or desiring to either.

This is also why /pol/tards will never “get” jazz, they must have something interpretable, fascists need “order” and “meaning”. This is part of why they wank so hard to classical composition. It is understandable, theoretically compartmentalized in how it’s made, begging to be understood and ultimately enjoyed and canonized. Its why these kinds of people hate post modernism and it’s artistic contemporaries. Nothing pisses off a fascist like something that has no desire to be understood and canonized, in fact, most of free jazz and contemporary art composition past 1945 as well as late beat and early po-mo writing aspires to throw out all canonization and theoretical categorization and build it’s own systems with and without structure. To a fascist this is like taking gold and throwing it in cow dung and the writhing in the manure before walking away as if completely equal to the perfect Greek statues they jack off to. It shatters and angers their egos and causes a flared up response of perceived “pretention” and “degeneracy”.

In fact I find this pathetic and sign of a crippling lack of any true masculinity in any of these /pol/tards. It’s disgusting.

>>16232560
>causes a flared up response of perceived “pretention”

I find that objects that aspire to order, harmony and coherence draws this reaction more than anything else

>>16227715
this reminds me of when Derrida interviewed Ornette Coleman:
http://www.ubu.com/papers/Derrida-Interviews-Coleman_1997.pdf

Also wow there are a lot of pseuds in this thread, you do realize that jazz is probably the best thing to happen to western culture in the last 100 years right?

>>16232594
I will admit that in certain cases you can be right but this is just contrarianism to me, a lot of 19-25 year old pretentious nerds will jack off to noise and discord to spite those that jack it to order. Of course, this causes counter-contrarianism as well. My time spent on /mu/ has shown this pretty well. First, teens and 20somethings will shun all popular music for noisy “anti-art” (No Wave, Noise, Onkyo) and become pretentious psueds, until made fun of in counter, as more contrarians appear to call them out as Rym-psueds and Avant-teens, and the cycle repeats over and over again. The most startling thing to me though is that (with a few exceptions) most artists in these styles such as free jazz couldn’t give two shits. In fact, in the works of Ornette Coleman, Sun-Ra and late Coletrain I find stunningly beautiful music, often because of the discord and tension until beauty is found.

>>16232638
>Also wow there are a lot of pseuds in this thread, you do realize that jazz is probably the best thing to happen to western culture in the last 100 years right?
Jazz signified nothing more than the complete replacement of western culture with something else. It's the single worst thing to happen to western culture in its entire history.

>>16227734
Most people who hate on jazz to be contrarian do so because they have a shallow and really tacky appreciation of "high art" which generally consists of a paradox games understanding of history and whatever classical music youtube recommends them. They don't want to understand why classical music is great, they've been told it's great and the social validation from that is the most important thing for them.

>>16232658
I will grant that jazz arguably did not come from western culture and in some ways replaced it, but I don't think that this is really a bad thing.
Western culture, at least in Spengler's conception of Faustian culture, has long since run its course and is in artistic decline. It seems that much of African American art originates from a new, emerging culture that cannot be characterized as Faustian. Instead of emphasizing the yearning for the infinite, black art emphasizes personal expression and liberation. I think jazz and all of the blues derivatives (funk, hip hop, soul) are vital for the continuation of human culture, as faustian culture in the west has grown almost entirely infertile.

Also, if you're going to try and claim that we ought to protect "Western Culture," it's entirely pointless. Even if there was a way to preserve culture without resorting to Fascism, which is antithetical to high culture and art, I do not think it would be moral to try and preserve Faustian culture, as global capitalism and blind technological advancement is threatening to destroy all of humanity.

>>16232717
But this new culture is so cheap. It may be full of life, but it's so empty and alienating.

>>16227737
Vroom-vroom!

>>16232749
It's full of false life, that "personal expression and liberation" he speaks of is actually part and parcel of the Wests's slow crawl into spiritual inertia. If you're not reaching for the higher you're reaching for the lower. The continued glorification and justification of the personality versus the trans-personal will do nothing but atomize our culture even further, to where no sense of objectivity, harmony and true purpose can continue to exist.

>>16228173
listening to jazz

>>16232771
>The continued glorification and justification of the personality versus the trans-personal
It was a pretentious and fake dichotomy to begin with, the personal is trans-personal. In the past ideals were over emphasized to the point that the trans-personal was just some abstract vision of what you should be but never will be because it was always just a fantasy and never what we were. This wasn't real, nor is mundanity necessarily mundane but rather the real intuition has been to the see the sublime infinite reveal itself through mundane reality.

>>16228437
i must not like jazz because i dont find this enjoyable. just seems like a mash of sounds that dont sound good

>>16232658
>It's the single worst thing to happen to western culture in its entire history.
Hahahahaha, you're not serious, are you?

>>16232966
That's fine, everyone has different tastes.
I listen to the Dillinger Escape Plan, 98% of the people I show it to find it abhorrent

>>16230932
>Afrofuturism is not New Age though (and really I don't think that anything black can be New Age).
I can understand the distinction, but I do think he rubbed elbows with that brand of hippy nonsense. Now the Coltranes and Pharaoh Sanders were engaging within the bounds of new age style spiritualism.

>>16229621
>I do believe that today more or less all culture is popular culture at this point.
What do you think of Arvo Pärt?

>>16232560
Sorry you had to type all that out bro but jazz is just shit

>>16227715

>>>/mu/

>>16231216
Brainlet broken record. This guy does not understand fuck all about what is talked about.

>>16233444

Gramsci and Evola say essentially agree with each other here. Based Italians.

esoteric modal jazz is literally up there with the best of bach and gregorian chant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ6lB7FKxi8

Ishmael Reed.

>>16233846

Only good answer ITT, lol.

The funniest thing about this thread is how embarrassing most of these opinions are outside this little bastion of LARPers who blatantly don’t understand art. Yes, you look like an idiot when you try to debase Jazz and it’s amplified when you defend it with “hurr it just pop music. why it don’t make shiny sound like violin?”.

Read Fred Moten, and please don’t share these opinions publicly, you will be laughed at.

>>16233442
Nah it sounds good to me,
>horn goes Skrooonk

>>16233993
There hasn't been a single coherent defense of this nihilistic consumer music made in just cheap appeals to music theory and a false sense of emancipation that created embarrassing works of beatnik poetry.

>>16233076
not him but mememalism is a walmart of art music

This is one of the most embarrassing /lit/ threads I’ve read in the last few weeks.

>>16234317
This is Walmart music?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWLSRGhVlTM

I cannot stand improvisation in any form

>>16228966
His views on jazz were embarrasing at best and borderline racist at worst. A prime example of how certain (i.e. all of them) thinkers spew pseud nonsense when they leave their field. For a more contemporary example, look up Jordan Peterson.

>>16234456
Discussions of culture are very much within the bounds of his field. I guess it's just hard to learn your emperor has no clothes.

>>16227715
The beats

>high art
>low art
Brainlet distinction for retards to pat themselves on the back over

>>16234501
I agree that this is a mistake, but music made for popular consumption during and after the rise of recording technology is deserving of its own category.

>>16227715
Sounds like nigger cock un your ass is all you need

>>16234501
There is a clear difference between "high art" and schlock, though, it's not some nonsense people use to elevate themselves compared to others. But those two aren't the only examples of art and genre fiction isn't necessarily schlock by default, so you're wrong.

>>16227754
When ever something like this happens it's always one lone schizo, it is pretty weird though

SURREALISM FAGGOT

>>16233384
>>16233384
>>16233384
>>16233384

GET JUST ABOUT ANY EBOOK YOU WANT HERE FAGGOTS
GET OFF THE CLEARNET
JOIN THE RESISTANCE

>>16228625
Cowboy Bebop was influenced by jazz, retard. You don't hear any baroque music in it. Did you even watch the whole show?

>>16228218
Did I just hear you say that apples are better than oranges? My good sir, I am outraged! I have empirical evidence that oranges are the superior fruit.

>[laughs in metal]

>>16234205
the standard "It Never Entered My Mind"

there. owned.

Why the weird hate for jazz? Its such a wide genre you can find whatever you want in it, classically influenced jazz as well. Half of it ain't even improvised.

>>16234827
Bruh it's just #bookz. If you search online 'reddit how to find free ebooks' you find instructions to it on first page.

Bump

>>16229334
If they did, the canon would be company as charming and welcome as flies are in an August afternoon picnic.

>>16236186
jazz is too non-euclidean

Was jazz being seen as more than it is the first iteration of "poptimism"

>>16236186
Jazz represents the death of the culture we relate to and its replacement by one we find alienating.

>>16227715
Hegel is jazz and jazz is Hegel. You will only understand this if you understand both music (I mean actually play an instrument) and Hegel. Ultimately though, jazz is NOT really what one would think of as "high art" and it also definitely falls into degenerative rather than a generative movement.

Jazz has nothing generative in itself. It is entirely a reaction to declining generative forms of Western civilization, in this case Western music. It is essentially a feasting of degenerates upon a rotting corpse of what was once a truly generative mechanism. Consider for example the stark contrast between a generative form such as an Old Roman Chant and a total degeneration such as as John Coltrane's Giant Steps. The latter is the art equivalent of a bunch of hyenas emerging from the dark to beat upon an old man who lived a great life and whom they hate. It is entirely predictable that only degenerates like the Beats were attracted to it, too. It is simply impossible for a human being with a generative M.O. or what is more conventionally called a soul, an uplifting vital, generative soul, would ever be attracted to something like jazz except as a passing fancy at best. Nobody can take seriously a form that has no generative root.

>>16236186
Jazz especially in its early forms was just negro noodling with open disregard for form and concept

It was associated with hedonist degenerates who just wanted to dance and party their lives away. Everyone with a brain it and said don't let this negro american nonsense into our countries or they will turn into "pop culture" and "nightclubs" soon enough. They were right.

>>16239009
However, Jazz was an inevitability in a declining Western civilization that only reflects upon itself into indefinite deconstruction. Of course, I don't think hyenas who have seized upon this spirit of the time are to be congratulated, even if their deconstruction or degeneration could even be considered technically masterful at times, it is still just mere degeneration. Nobody would applaud a man who is a champion of precision turd droppings.

>>16239029
Of course, this commentary seems very abstract in light of just listening to a single recording, but it behoves everyone to think of art in this way, at least those who are capable of abstraction instead of mere consumption. This is the weight of the intelligence, that one cannot simply go back put a record on and pretend to unknow everything that he or she knows. Only a dumb consumerist could do that.

>>16239046
So let me finish with this. I don't see any forward movement in jazz at all. It is merely an increasingly complex beating up of a dead body, that will never generate a new cultural form regardless of the amount of complexity added to it because it has no generative root inside it at all. The fact that it could develop from a more primitive degeneration to a more complex degeneration is only a superficial peculiarity.