/lit/ - Literature

>>16231727
who cares take politics to /his/ you'll get a response there

For example someone who is anti capitalist and realizes capitalism is an inferior system but doesn't want to tear down all the history, art, and traditions of our past ancestors with their postmodern way of thinking? I am far left economically but every single far lefter I talk to has that tear everything down thinking.

>>16231727
>>16231736
You're describing Third Positionism

>>16231735
This is related to literature.

>left wing economically/socially but right wing culturally/artistically
>left wing socially
>right wing culturally

>>16231740
Isn't Third Positionism racist and fascist? I said I want it to be anti-capitalist and left wing socially

>>16231741
I know but you're going to have better luck in /his/

>>16231744
I'm using cultural in more of a way of societal thinking of how people should interact you know small community minded regionalized thinking instead of how it's used like "fuck black people and save the babies" you know?

>>16231747
They never respond to anything I post there but I'll try

>>16231744
socially and economically conservative > socially liberal but economically conservative > socially conservative bu economically liberal >>>>>>>>> shit >>>>>>>>>>>> socially and economically liberal

Fuck the Brahmin left and the Merchant right. NazBol gang assemble! I was going to be the Marx of this quadrant

>>16231746
What you seem to be describing is contradictory. Aesthetics/material culture are a reflection of culture and values. An ideology that promotes egalitarianism, progress, anit-theism, anti-nationalism and the like is going to be hostile to art that embodies hierarchy, religion, national identity, statues of great men and so on. Hence why why contemporary leftists tend to be puritan-tier iconoclasts.

>>16231746
If by "anti-capitalist" you really mean that they are against the system of capitalism entirely then he's right, the right-wing post-hegelians are your only bet. Collectivism is a dead fucking end though, you will never extirpate personal interest. Whether you're using the central government to destroy culture or enforce it you're stuck with retards attempting to control morality as if it were economics.

>>16231777
>hostile to ... statues of great men
do you know how many schlocky lenin statues are all over eastern europe dude?

>>16231777
I should of clarified that I'm more in line of thinking with a traditional conservative than a far right fascist. A traditional conservative would prefer regionalism and agrarianism over an overbearing fascist state which would be in contradiction to their beliefs. That's more what I'm thinking of. Traditionalist conservative thinking but with socialist economics and not being stuck to The Bible for morals.

>>16231780
Traditionalist conservatives are more like libertarian socialists in their anti capitalism when they say that free market capitalism does nothing but break apart the traditions/community but they don't want an overbearing state involved in their lives whether it's fascism or state socialism.

>>16231804
Look into Distributism.

>>16231727
Hitler

>>16231921
Read the thread

>>16231727
My suggestions:
-Karl Marx (read through a conservative eye)
-Alasdair MacIntyre (After Virtue in particular)
-Eugene McCarraher (although he’s more of a religious historian- read The Enchantments of Mammon)
-Christopher Lasch (particularly Culture of Narcissism, Revolt of the Elites, and the True and Only Heaven)
-Jacques Ellul (the Technological Society)

Then, these two are definitely more right wing politically and economically, but can have their ideas adapted to a left-wing economic perspective by their severe hatred of bourgeois liberalism:
-Donoso Cortes
-Louis de Bonald
-Oswald Spengler (Prussian Socialism)

Then, for developing any type of politics:
-Carl Schmitt (the Concept of the Political, Nomos of the Earth, Tyranny of Values are IMO the most important)
-Alexandre Kojeve (Introduction to the Reading of Hegel)

>>16231982
thanks a lot my friend what are your personal opinions do you think i'm retarded?

>>16231727
There is no such thing as left vs right with respect to culture and art. There is only liberalism vs conservatism on that front. What you are describing is just standard leftism.

>>16232024
I've never met a single person on the left who thought like me

>>16231736
Ask leftypol

>>16232028
Sounds like you are in some fucked culture like burgerland.

>>16231741
I don't see you referencing any book

>>16231765
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you're dumb

>>16232050
go tell the teacher then you pussy faggot

>>16231746
>racist and fascist
don't worry libshit your a fullblown lefttard, economically but culturally too

>>16232046
Are there people like this in Europe?

>>16232007
Personal opinions about what? The discussion about the difference between society and culture and whether there can be “left” or “right” wing culture and art? I think we’re just struggling to develop the proper vocabulary to describe some very real phenomena. Although I think “left” and “right” wing culture are somewhat misleading terms, I very much understand what you mean.

>>16232054
I wasn't going to bother but I have now since you asked.

>>16232056
Really I seem to agree with Hitler and Trump artistically unless your calling them libshit too

>>16231736
>tear down all the history, art, and traditions of our past ancestors
Do you think that leftist want to remove history?
That's not the case, leftist just want public monuments glorifying people who have for example had a history in slave trade removed. Or that for example musea don't romanticize history too much and also show the dark and gruesome moments.
Also
>their postmodern way of thinking
you're falling for the memes

Another question how

>>16232066
see you in 3 days

>>16232080
Every leftist I talk to has a postmodern way of thinking about art and culture. They think since rap is popular and speaks to this generation that if Bach's music died and was taken out of the culture completely there would be nothing wrong with that. They don't see any problem with the state of architecture today for example. They have the postmodern take of anything goes.

>glorifying people who have for example had a history in slave trade removed
So basically 95% of people in history

>>16232080
Are you yanking our dicks or do you not understand that what you're describing is a rolling system of perpetually-updating social mores that will eventually come to regard every era of the past sinful?

>>16232078
>agree with Trump artistically
What does this even mean? What are Trump's artistic tastes other than things he names after himself?

That is so stupid. I've never met a leftist in my life who thought that. Although I don't agree with them on a political level, anyone with a brain will realize that Bach's music has influenced western music for 400 years. Except for commie bitches, people can agree that gothic architecture, for example, is much better than soviet architecture. Instead of getting your knowledge from ignorance, and memes, read manifestos and essays, and understand what people actually stand for.

>>16232134
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/04/trump-federal-buildings-beautiful-classical-order

>>16232093
>>16232101
I am not american, and I know you guys are on the brink of civil war but there will always be cultural archives and curious minds digging through them. How can Bach be removed? He's an important part of musical history. As long as culture is getting archived it can't die, how is culture gonna die by leftist?
You've either overdosed on twitter 'hot takes' or just a genuine retard who believes some right wing schizo.

>>16232166
Bach being nothing in your society but something for autistic cultural archivists or traditional architecture being a single building that didn't get tore down to enact the 197th lifeless square bunker is a bad thing in my opinion. Conservatives are the only people I see trying to protect things like these from dying.

>>16232028
I am a left wing and, while not precisely conservative, I feel disgusted by the cultural liberalism and its retardation. I'm from southamerica btw.

>>16232180
Maybe it's a more popular line of thinking outside of the US. I wish I could

>right wing
>culture
>art

>>16232182
>>16232180
leave this shithole.

>>16232184
What are you trying to say?

>>16232182
The problem is there is no actual leftwing in northamerica, it's all rightwing painted with a coat of progressism to make it seem more soft and palatable to normies.

>>16231777

>>16232166
Leftoids increasingly demand a "decolonial" Year Zero that excises the entire White contribution except for science and tech, which they will rationalize somehow. Just give it a decade or so. You can't see it because you're not perceptive.

>>16232196
Almost the entirety of artists are left wing. There may be more apolitical than rightoids. Inb4 'apolitical is a right wing stance' (I agree though).

>>16232203
I don't know the actual percentages but a big chunk of the youth are literal socialists/communists/anarchists. I know many of them.

>>16232212
>the left is ummm being against whites!
amerilard ignorance sure is endearing

>>16232214
Are you talking about like members of an orchestra? Yeah those guys are usually liberal but they have the same line of thinking.

>>16232215
It's over 50%.

>>16232166
>You've either overdosed on twitter 'hot takes' or just a genuine retard who believes some right wing schizo.
Yeah you've summed up the right wing.

>>16231736
It must be torn down. End of story.

>>16232219
>American hegemony doesn't affect me
Keep telling yourself that. Its poison engulfs the world, you're just a decade behind.

>>16232224
Do you guys think there are tons of cathedrals being made and that classical music is being blasted in peoples cars? Are you guys delusional?

>>16232232
>art and culture are just cathedrals and classical music
Bet you also champion on twitter against post-modernism huh?

>>16232083
See ya

>>16232239
I don't make text posts but I do post pictures of art I like and follow some traditional twitter accounts but it's more of a personal archive than a statement.

>>16232230
It does, through sheer imperialism. Nothing more right wing than that.

>>16232178
What the fuck are you talking about, this is so laughable stupid, you think schools won't teach musical history? You don't that even the slightest curious persons try out different musical genres. You know that there exists wikipedia right? You know that there are millions of books right? You know that there are even internet meme's with Bach right, I bet even Tik toks.
I can't believe you really dish out this retarded take.
>>16232212
This is just right wing paranoid schizophrenia. This would never go through, are you mentally insane?

Look for Rightwing socialism

>>16232178
>Conservatives are the only people I see trying to protect things like these from dying.
Where the hell are you from? American Conservatives gave up on this decades ago, at least as far back as Reagan. Both the leaders and voters of the party think art is for fags.

>>16232251
>/pol/ chart
oh boy the schizos don't even try to hide it anymore

>>16232232
Do we really need new cathedrals?
But classical music is still actively being listened to, performed and taught.

>>16232246
We aren't saying it's literally going to disappear you dumb fuck I'm saying it's irrelevant in the society. Basically no one listens to classical music. Concert halls and operas are closing to due lack of funding. The only people who go are 90 year old jews. You can count on one hand the amount of traditional buildings being made. There are 0 popular painters in the classical tradition. You are strawmanning so hard

>>16232242
So you agree it's going to take over, but just that spreading leftism is actually right wing? In any case, the cutting edge is antiwhite, if you disagree you're a dinosaur, even a reactionary

>>16231736
why do you need an ism? just b urself dude

>>16232259
>Do we really need new cathedrals?
Do we really need beauty?

>But classical music is still actively being listened to, performed and taught.
Concert halls and opera houses are being closed down in record numbers. I've been to numerous concert halls around the country and there is usually less than 6 people under of the age of 70. I've only met two people that listened to classical music and they were both musicians. It's irrelevant in society. I don't get this line of argument you guys are trying to make like it's some super popular form of art lol

>>16232246
>this would never go through
A lot of signs are pointing to incoming revolution. If you want precedent just look at the 20th Century. You're just stupefied by your bubble of comfort such that this scenario is unthinkable to you.

>>16232265
>Basically no one listens to classical music.
Basically no one does anything.
>Concert halls and operas are closing to due lack of funding.
People are listening to, and learning, classical music and opera more than ever in history, even in completely different cultures such as Africa, China or the Mid East.
>You can count on one hand the amount of traditional buildings being made.
Who cares. Besides, this is wrong.
>There are 0 popular painters in the classical tradition.
Insanely wrong.

If you really loved those things as much as you think you do, you wouldn't be spewing nonsense. This is the best time in history (by far) for someone who appreciates any kind of art.

>>16231727
I think capitalism is the devil and needs to be restrained in benefit for society, just like niggers and women refusing to breed

>>16232267
I'm saying that nothing the US does is left wing.

>>16232307
I meant to say restraining niggers (keeping them in the zoos), and restraining women refusing to breed (by forcing them to have babies)*

>>16231727
I don't mind theft, I mind overpriced products. Housing in particular is insanely overpriced. A basic need like shelter should not be an overwhelming expense to maintain. I guarantee the amount of labor we need in the first world to secure our basic needs of food/water/shelter is higher now than it has ever been, outrageously so.

>>16232080
No leftists are explicitly anti-history and anti-time and if you can’t understand this you’re a moron

>>16232265
>>16232274
>Basically no one listens to classical music
Yeah because it is boring and unexciting and usually tickets are expensive. I bet you're a pretentious pseud, jesus christ.
But okay what's your solution? Force everyone to go and listen to classical music?
Leftist are usually the one who see the importance of cultural subsidies. Trump for example lowered a lot of public spending to culture.
Really I think you retards are stuck in the past, I mean classical music has created a lasting cultural influence, so don't worry.

>>16232274
>rightoid government cuts funding to opera and classical music
>THE LEFT WANTS TO DESTROY CULTURE MUH OPERA
retard

>>16232306
>Basically no one does anything.
The Billboard top 100 rappers get hundreds of millions of listeners and Monteverdi gets 200k which is not small but the numbers are declining but it's small in the grand scheme
>People are listening to, and learning, classical music and opera more than ever in history, even in completely different cultures such as Africa, China or the Mid East.
So why are the concert halls closing? Can you point to make this huge part of our culture filled with classical music and traditional art? I would love to see it and meet the people involved
>Who cares. Besides, this is wrong.
Who cares that buildings that are not square bunkers or triangle monstrosities are being built. Please post all the traditional buildings being made because I know all the current traditional architects and they don't get much work
>Insanely wrong.
What do you think the number is?

>>16232294
Yeah, it's unthinkable. Please point towards anyone that actually genuinely wants that, and no some edgy twitter user doesn't count.

>>16231727
>right wing culture/art
oxymoron

>>16232306
Holy shit guys the US is actually a trad country. We have a lot of high class intellectuals in our society who like to listen to opera and visit their local cathedral lmao. This guy is fucking delusional. Cherrypicking nonsense.

>>16232310
You just need everything to fit on a 1D spectrum where you're on the good guy side

>>16232080
Yes, what do you think they Meehan when they talk about decolonizing spaces.

>>16232323
>Yeah because it is boring and unexciting and usually tickets are expensive. I bet you're a pretentious pseud, jesus christ

Thanks for proving my point.

>>16232319
No, leftist explicitly want to learn from the history and progress as time moves forward. Conservatives and traditionalists are the ones wanting to LARP and stagnate.

>>16231727
A lot actually, this used to be the norm but then "the left" decided they would just become the political side of the liberalism coin while "the right" took the economical one (posing as conservatism at the same time)

>>16232325
Republican retards are just as culture-less as liberals. Don't place me with them

>>16232346
Moron detected

>>16232306
>People are listening to, and learning, classical music and opera more than ever in history, even in completely different cultures such as Africa, China or the Mid East.
But there have been major pushes to incorporate non-western and anti-western elements into that music to ensure the tradition is discontinued.

>>16232331
>The Billboard top 100 rappers
Yeah so? Never in history there have been so many musicians and listeners of clasical music. Never in history it was so easy to compose, share, and find pieces.
>So why are the concert halls closing
Because right wing governments cut culture funding as they always do.
>Who cares that buildings that are not square bunkers or triangle monstrosities are being built.
You have no idea about architecure. Besides the rich businessmen who can "build cathedrals" but make "square bunkers" are all right wing.
>What do you think the number is?
There have never in history been as many realistic artists, nor have realistic pieces been so highly valued as they are today.

>>16232346
Shitting in a tin can and calling it art is progress

>>16232333
Twitter represents the rank and file, the lifeblood and the true movement. Unless you think leftism is properly top down and dictated by a minority of elite thinkers...

>>16232338
>culture and art are just opera and cathedrals
Had to be a /pol/ amerishart schizoid.

>>16232360
>twitter represents the rank and file, the lifeblood and the true movement
Imagine even thinking this sentence unironically

>>16232349
>bawwww muh opera muh cathedrals
>>16232359
Literally yes.
>>16232350
America has no culture of their own. You cannot claim what western culture is or isn't.

>>16232360
Twitter is the id and academia is the superego.

>>16232356
>Yeah so? Never in history there have been so many musicians and listeners of clasical music. Never in history it was so easy to compose, share, and find pieces.
It's not even distant past when opera singers were worldwide superstars. My own grandparents who were retarded immigrants had classical music lp's. Where is this today?
>Because right wing governments cut culture funding as they always do.
Yeah republicans are culture-less too
>You have no idea about architecure.
That's why you couldn't give any examples or prove me wrong right?
>Besides the rich businessmen who can "build cathedrals" but make "square bunkers" are all right wing.
And?
>There have never in history been as many realistic artists, nor have realistic pieces been so highly valued as they are today.
Name 5 popular ones right now

>>16232363
What is better than Wagner and St Peters Basilica? Literally the greatest art ever created. What is better?

>>16231727
But built the structure in which the worker works?

Who faced the risks of it failing? Who spent years saving money in order to built the buildings, buy the machines, and so on? Who's gonna go on trial if, say, the restaurant gives a client some bad food and you can't determine who was the cook responsible for it?

My God, commies are economically illiterate. These people don't work and have never owned a business in their lives. They don't know what it takes to open a small business. Imbeciles.

Also, how is this literature related?

>>16232368
>America has no culture of their own. You cannot claim what western culture is or isn't.
Is safe to say that there is a tradition based on certain principles that is ever evolving, and there is a tradition that wants to see the fundamental elements torn out and replaced with something new (blues-Jazz oriented music, etc.).

>>16232368
How can you admit you are a cultureless retard who can't enjoy any art that wasn't made in the 2000's and still feel superior? You feel superior for being retarded?

>>16232374
To argue that leftists want to destroy culture, you first assert that art is dead. Right.

I dont want to be classified as one of those lame rightests who take it too far and go to the exact opisite extreme as a reaction, but i sympathise with the sentiment.

Its not so much about specific aftions, but its an implicit trend in lefty circles to take this synical half done contextual take on things, that feels just so much more dispicable than even the obvious fallacious idealization of right stuff. at least the later is trying to make something beutyful, while the former almost always intend to destroy or desecrate a strawman or a real concern. Something like:
>Although the classical narritive says x, in fact it is really y.
And its not that its necissarily false, but it often seems like its intending to create countermyths rather than a true post modernist take of trying to dispel all myths. its like they half bake something, questioning a traditional narritive, but then not questioning the narritive they themselves implicitly make by doing so. Its such a have your cake tendency that i find so repulsive and only really useful in a rather specific context.

I know this is vague, but i think the topic itself is as well.

>>16232376
America isn't carrying the torch of anything. They're just a mutt of cultures, a bastard child of Europe's colonialism. To claim that the legacy of things such as 'opera' or 'cathedrals' (in a protestant country, even) belongs to them is ridiculous.

>>16232381
It's dying because of leftists it's not fully dead but they keep trying. I'm an optimistic person though

>>16232341
Modifying things that glorify the colonial past?

>>16232344
>proving my point
Are you a boomer or still in your 20s? C'mon dude, I ain't paying to sit and watch some orchestra play Bach. The only orchestra I'm currently interested in is Chinese (speaking of leftist) communist orchestra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZd_5-RNnDM

>>16232349
No, it's literally true. It's even in the name itself: conserve and tradition.

>>16232390
bait

>>16232380
I enjoy art of all times. Almost all artists 1800 onwards were leftists.
>>16232389
Art is not dying, it's thriving.
If you think that nothing after Wagner and Michelangelo comes close, of course you'd feel it'd be dying. Were you alive in 2020, 1990 or 1900.

>>16232360
What? This nigga for real?

>>16232398
What comes close to Wagner and Michelangelo in our current day? I'm prepared for cringe.

>>16232374
>what is better than _insert renowned work here_
I don't know who tradfags think they're fooling when they do this. They don't consume art or educate themselves in it but pull random pieces classical culture and demand to know why there isn't more of it. You go off of what's famous and the world of actual training and education is invisible to you because you don't really care.

>>16232390
...like anything is not colonial. we should decolonize our written language as it is a remnant of phonician, than greek, then roman, then french colonialism.

>>16231727
Zygmunt Bauman and Frederic Jameson are conservatives aesthetically speaking.

>>16231727
Aladair MacIntyre
Anyone who posts anything other than this is retarded

>>16232395
Kinda, but I seriously love this shit. America is crumbling and china can finally be number one.

>>16232401
>Actually, Leftism is a rhizome
>t. elite employee of the bourgeois state
K

>>16232410
Also, almost every Frankfurt school marxists is conservative aesthetically speaking:
>habermas
>adorno

Old school aesthetically conservative leftists I know:
>mainlander (his entire aesthetic theory is just classic "beauty = harmony" stuff)

>>16232407
Instead of being paranoid, why don't you try to pick up a book from anti-colonial thinkers to figure out what they want.

>>16232404
I guarantee I know more about current art than you do. I've listened to thousands of albums.

>>16232431
Why dont you explain it?

Isnt it something about trying to not create an implicit sense of inferiority rather than purely the geneology of ideas?

But at that point I think it all gets corrupted by lazy half job pomo takes.

>>16232403
There are many artists as good as Michelangelo, if not better. Be it as painters, sculptors or muralists. Of course they'll never have his historical importance unless they develop a time machine.

Regarding Wagner, there's much more popular musicians, much more prolific composers, and much more creative/experimental artists. To see if any musician reaches his historical importance we'll have to wait a few decades.

If the question on the other hand is 'what would I like as much as Wagner and Michelangelo' then that's an answer only you can give. I'm not a mind reader but I'm guessing that if you said those two are the best, then those two are the best.

>>16232444
So you don't have anything then lol.

>>16232443
you're on a board about literature and, instead of reading your subject, you double down on talking about something you have no idea about

/pol/ rightoids need to go

>>16232390
>Modifying things that glorify the colonial past?
That’s one rather vague euphemism, isn’t it?

>>16232431
The rank and file don't actually read theory either. So do the activists respond to the theoreticians or is it the other way around?

>>16232454
Im asking you for a brief explanation. Im not opposed to other views. I have a decent amount of left leaning beliefs.

>>16232450
I don't have any answer that could make you feel satisfied, yes.
You're doomed to a life of unhappiness. I'm sorry.

>>16232465
I'm very happy listening to Wagner on my speakers it would just be nice to have people who have the same interests as me.

>>16232473
So all this cry about culture, cathedrals and opera was just a way to demand a solution to your loneliness.

>>16232454
>/pol/ rightoids need to go
why is this always the response of those not willing to converse?

>>16232484
post-colonialism is shit anyway it'll die out in a decade or so

>>16232457
>>16232461
You're the ones creating a giant strawman of the scary postmodern leftist that want to erase all history and remove Bach. I am not even American, I'm from the Netherlands and I know that America but really what anti-colonial people want is less racism and they do this through cultural dialogue.
Like we have the tradition of Black Pete and Sinterklaas, there has been a cultural discussion about black pete and they're slowly phasing him out these last few years with different kinds of petes

>>16232489
Maybe.

But what comes after post-colonialism?

>>16232477
That's one part but also that to see beautiful architecture I have to leave the country even though in the past we were building in Beaux-arts style and just decided to just stop (wonder why) and also that I still enjoy progress and seeing and hearing modern art that has great substance which is rare.

>>16232495
post post colonialism

>>16232473
Cute, maybe put that in your tinder profile. Culture is there to be enjoyed, but for example black people might not feel so comfortable when a statue literally was a slave trader for example.

>>16232495
>in theory
an anti-moralism that accounts for human sentiment and grassroots political response in its material considerations in order to advance functional policy, I hope
>in popular culture
a counterculture of personal discipline as a response to the fecklessness for which the self-flagellation of post-colonial thought is supposed to compensate

>>16232509
Yeah but they have no problem listening to a rapper who got 15 years for beating his wife to death because "DIS SHIT SLAPS NIGGA"

>>16231727
Except this is fucking stupid, because nobody can quantify exactly "how much value" an individual employee produced.
This is why we have employment contracts.
They agree to pay you to do a job.
If someone else makes improvements that increases profits, you're not owed more for doing the bare minimum you agreed to.

>>16232492
>The destruction of the colonial world is no more and no less that the abolition of one zone, its burial in the depths of the earth or its expulsion from the country.
Franz Fanon

>>16232492
>You're the ones creating a giant strawman of the scary postmodern leftist that want to erase all history and remove Bach.
Im not the other right retards arguing for some fundemental essence that is in Bach, i find that kinda gay and reductionistic. I was specifically refering to anti-colonialism which i find kind of arbitrary.
> but really what anti-colonial people want is less racism
Well intention is good and all, but that doesn't get at the core of the validity of something. I think anti-colonialism as a sentiment is something that more often produces antithesis and discourse rather then a sense of fulfillment. since by its nature it is open to and is more often than not driven by reactionism. Im not one of the retards here, and i am open to nuanced disection. One Book I think does this well is Cinderella's Sister, a take on the history of footbinding in china from multiple perspectives, and specifically does not use anti-colonialism as a driving lense because it is such a one dimentional and paradigm creating avenue. she does note the effect of western mindsets and pressures, but she mentions it along with verious other internal and external effect.

all and all, i find the focus of that lense to be more misleading and narritive creating rather than accurate or healing.

>>16232509
I don't feel comfortable around niggers, therefore we need to ban nigger statues.

>>16232525
kek

>>16232518
You are fine to be upset about that, wasn't chriss brown cancelled though? Did his music even got played after the incident on any radio? I don't think so.

>>16232532
He was literally the star of SNL in the same year and is one of the most played artists now being featured on all the famous musicians today. Do you not keep up? He is even more loved lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPhwbZBvW2o

>>16232532
Should we burn down the museums because all the historical artifacts and pieces of art because someone was a slave owner?

>>16232520
Okay, are you implying something?

>>16232524
I mean, I believe that many anti-colonial people, especially in amercia, are just focused at getting the whole picture and making sure the dark spots of history aren't being whitewashed. A statue for example usually glorifies a person, also the little text engraved next to it might only talk about it's achievements.
I think really if an a person is worthy of a statue, but he has a dark past, then artists need to find a way to bring it in full perspective.
I mean I wouldn't mind it, it would increase the depth.

>>16232525
Then you are the problem bud, people aren't cultural objects in the public space.

>>16232555
No retard, people just want to make sure that THAT side isn't being whitewashed. They want to make sure that it's clear that the person was a slave owner.

>>16232555
Depends.
But honestly I don't mind. Art pieces aren't irreplacable. Their value is mostly historical, not aesthetics. Aesthetics can be replicated anytime.

>>16232578
We also need to make sure that everyone knows that all these historical transphobes only believed in two genders.

>>16232542
I mean how did the drama develop, he done his time in jail right? What did Beyonce say? Clearly he isn't being cancelled, but I bet there are still people upset or memeing about him.

>>16231727
>>16231736
Yes many. Many conventional leftists are like this, but also lots of Catholics (Chesterton, Belloc, Dorothy Day, Pope Benedict XVI) etc.
The "critical theorist deconstructionist postmodernists" that get such a bad rep were generally extremely indebted to and respectful of the Western canon - Derrida, Deleuze, Adorno, Foucault etc.
Plus American writers like Daniel Bell (who described himself as a "socialist in economics, a liberal in politics, and a conservative in morals.") and Christopher Lasch.
Communitarian philosophers like Alasdair Macintyre.
Proudhon, too, described himself as a "revolutionary who is profoundly conservative."
Ernst Junger was for a while associated with the ARPLAN alongside George Lukacs, and embraced a type of Stirnerian anarchism.
And of course the national syndicalists, the Cercle Proudhon, the Fascists - Sorel, Valois, Gentile, de Man, Rochelle. Though I would describe their project as violently radical and modernising, which might not be what you're looking for.

radicalism is hard to categorise alongside contemporary, extremely localised definitions of left and right. elides bourgeois stereotypes and dichotomies.

>>16232398
>Almost all artists 1800 onwards were leftists.
Dostoevsky? Wagner? Eliot? Pound? Yeats? Gertrude Stein? Wyndham Lewis? D.H. Lawrence? Borges? Mishima? Hamsun? Rohmer?

>>16232564
Their most important theorist was not a milquetoast liberal but had a thirst for the total annihilation of the colonizer. If they were merely simple antiracists they wouldn't need to refer to such theory.

>>16232599
You got that out that quote? I don't see it.

>>16232578
So tearing it down and destroying it is making it clear or should we have a plaque that lists off every horrible thing someone did on every single work of art?

>>16232564
>especially in amercia, are just focused at getting the whole picture and making sure the dark spots of history aren't being whitewashed.
I think that is the rhetoric, but I do not think most of these people know about the people of the statues besides the fact that they owned slaves or supported slavery implicitly or explicitly. In that case, its not exposing something hiden for nuance's sack, its more defining something, defining a narritive, by the only thing they care about within it. I hardly think a statue of lee was solely made because he defended the state that supported slavery. I think something like To Kill a Mocking Bird, a peice usually seen as showing the darker side of things, actually did this well, showing why and how people revered him. Most of the rhetoric ive seen has been to streamline the narritives of these people rather than to expand them, make them human.
>I think really if an a person is worthy of a statue, but he has a dark past, then artists need to find a way to bring it in full perspective.
Sure, I dont mind if they do that, but your very form of speach, by saying
>he has a dark past
makes a concrete negative narritive that i think is anathema to a good understanding of a subject in a non-polemic fashion. I believe its good to paint the qualitative aspects of a person without then giving a quantitative moral interpretation as THE interpretation (of course your personal one is yours). THat serves to reduce and set rather than to present an honest picture that can be disected and looked at from different angles.
>I mean I wouldn't mind it, it would increase the depth.
Adding something like closed manicles i dont mind, again showing an aspect, rather than defining what you should think.

>>16232590
He is canceled by redditors but the masses don't give a shit. Everyone still listens to his music. All of these rappers have rap sheets filled with horrible shit but no one cares.

>>16232596
Do you have goodreads? You seem cool and I would like to get more reccs

>>16232609
It shows the discontent of people, I don't know if a little plaque with bad things would be enough. Would feel to me like it's brushed over. It would be better if it was symbolized in some way. But really that's the work of ambitious artists to figure out.

>>16232634
nah, i think thats gay. if you say someone did bad things that really dosent do much to say who they were as a person. It would be better to give a breif doc. of a person. what they did and why.

>>16232634
I think these words ring true just substitute cyberbullying for work of art that offends you

>>16231803
He said great men, learn to read you fucking retard.

>>16232634
If you unironically think works of art need trigger warnings, you should remove yourself from society.

>>16232634
If you're a man and you get offended and emotional at a work of art you are a pussy and should feel bad for acting like a woman

>>16232606
>The native who decides to put the program into practice, and to become its moving force, is ready for violence at all times. From birth it is clear to him that this narrow world, strewn with prohibitions, can only be called in question by absolute violence.
More. They're not just liberals who want to make everyone feel a bit more comfortable.

>>16232615
>I do not think most of these people know about the people of the statues besides the fact that they owned slaves or supported slavery implicitly or explicitly.
I mean maybe the general populace not, but some more academic people or perhaps a curious college kid who does a wikipedia search and spreads it around on social media.
>I believe its good to paint the qualitative aspects of a person without then giving a quantitative moral interpretation as THE interpretation (of course your personal one is yours).
I guess, if it's executed well. I mean it all depends on the artist. People can take statues down be destructive or also do things like paint bloodstains on a stues hands and surroundings.

>>16232665
>He thinks librals want people to feel more comfortable and not keep everyone on edge with some minor faux-pas or bogyman of jew/racists/bigots/whatever to constantly shill product.

>>16232649
I mean, we're talking about slavery and racism. You can act like america completely let go of its past but it clearly hasn't.

>>16232624
Yeah I do but I'm embarrassed to post it lol. is there some surreptitious way I can give it to you

>>16232690
We should let go of niggers.

>>16232690
Everyone in the past was doing unethical shit. Karl Marx called people nigger but we don't cancel them for that.

>>16232690
Yes, but slavery and racism are not monolith, unmoving topics in themselves.

>>16232662
>>16232664
This is about slavery and racism which are still highly relevant topics.

>>16232697
pm me on reddit /u/Ilikewatchmovie

>>16232698
>>16232699
>>16232700
Really what triggered people to tear statues down was a graphic moment of police brutatlity. It's a cultural response. Destruction in itself can be argued to be an cultural act.

>>16232676
>I mean maybe the general populace not, but some more academic people or perhaps a curious college kid who does a wikipedia search and spreads it around on social media.
True, but then they will learn that through their studies wont they? Most of the popular movemnts are very one dimentional. And I mean this as someone who has great respects for Dr. MLK and his work who was expetionally good at displaying things in a nuanced while still impassioned and constructive way.

>>16232722
Yeah that's why they teared down Cervantes lol. You act like this isn't just ooga boogas wanting to break shit

>>16232708
the only reddit account i have was made for making a post on a very specific fetish subreddit...

>>16232722
Is police brutality also why they're looting stores?

>>16232722
>Really what triggered people to tear statues down was a graphic moment of police brutatlity
Eh, kind off. But this is the kind of thinking im not a fan off. a series of events lead to it. that might have been a major catalyst, but putting one cause to one effect only works to obscure rather than enlighten.
>Destruction in itself can be argued to be an cultural act.
Thats a weird way to put it. I wouldn't even argue it, id say its a given. but id extend it to most any act by a group of people would necissarily be defined as a cultural act.

>>16232733
make one it takes literally 5 seconds. no email or verification needed also I don't judge if you want to post on that anyways

>>16232705
Slavery hasn't been relevent in the West for hundreds of years.
And people will keep being racist against niggers until they stop behaving like niggers. We already bend over backwards giving them every chance to succeed, setting a bar so low it's embarrassing, and most still end up doing nothing more than being an abhorrent burden on society.

>>16232733
i'm not one for peer pressure but you better send it pussy you posted rohmer and i want to be goodread friends

>>16232759
sent ;)

>>16232080
>leftist just want public monuments glorifying people who have for example had a history in slave trade removed.

For a people who are largely churned out by the soft sciences you and your ilk are remarkably ignorant of cultural relativism.