/lit/ - Literature

>by making up fake stories about a regime that was only communist in name

>>16075745
>It was all fake bro

>>16075735
I have yet to meet a sane person that says "I'm a communist" after reading him.

>>16075763
Thats like saying the Spanish Inquisition disproved Christianity

>>16075735
>the USSR killed people
How's that not based though?

>>16075795
I read him but I didn't really hear any arguments against Marxism, just the Soviets

>>16075809
>the Spanish Inquisition
holy based...

>>16075819
Yes, because North-Korean gulags would be way different.

>>16075809
But that's exactly what it did.

>>16075735
By who? 1960s Thomas Jefferson?

>>16075735
ohh another reactionary usa backed faggot btfo's communism haha kek

>>16075938
Oh no, the commie is upset.

>>16075906
What does North Korea have to do with anything? Are you going to bring up Nazi Germany next?

>>16075906
>gulags are inherent to socialism/communism
Fuck off, implying that the privatized prison system of the United States aren't labour camps.

>>16075947
Why not? Fascism and Communism are not that different.

>>16075946
Not as upset as your dad

>>16075950
Shut the fuck up you degenerate commie.

>>16075906
You do know US prison labour exists, too, right, anon?

>>16075950
>Defending criminals

Kek

>>16075955
It doesn't really have much to do with disproving marxism. Both also took place under capitalism

>>16075976
>>16075963
>>16075950
>>16075938

Seethe harder commie.

>>16075967
>I have nothing of value to add, so here's my ad hominim bruh

Sounds like you have a tenuous understanding of communism, which is par for the course here

>>16075994
Your dad must be proud of you.

>>16075991
If you're going to be this much of a faggot, make yourself useful and suck our dicks

>>16075967
>>16075991
Nice concentration camps you have at your border burger, definitely not characteristic of capitalism in decay

>>16076001
He is actually.

>>16076002
How could I? You cut yours off, remember?

>>16076006
spics shoulda stayed on their side lmfao

>>16076016
You're confusing me with your uncle. He wants you to call him Auntie now.

>>16076006
>He mad he can't go in

LMAO

>>16076027
Shouldn't have let them in in the first place. Where's Trumpykin's fabled wall

>>16076027
>>16076034
>Our gulags are totes kosher, goy - I mean bruh

>>16075991
do you know that the only reason he beats the cancer is soviet's free healthcare system.
if he got cancer in america again he'd die in pain and debt xD

>>16075983
>Both also took place under capitalism
By both you mean Germany and what?

>>16076047
>>16076033
>>16076045

The left really can't meme.

>>16075819
Marxism =/= Communism
Both are shit ideologies though

>>16076045
You have to go back.

>>16076053
Karl Marx was German. He was essentially the founder of communism

>>16076060
>implying 4chan has always been right wing

>>16076060
>But muh ebic maymays

Real life is a bit more complex than funny pictures you found on Reddit, kiddo

>>16076075
Jews aren't German, by definition. What an ignorant and uneducated thing to say.

>>16076072
Where exactly? Your mom's bedroom?

>>16076063
shit tier bait

>>16076091
>4chan
>Real life

You literally cannot make this shit up.

>>16076075
You didn't answer the question.

>>16076094
He was based in Germany when he wrote it. You really are more retarded than I gave you credit for

>>16076104
The right is a meme

>>16076116
You do not know what a Meme is.

>>16076034
>>16076027
China does it better

>>16076053
USSR didn't fully transition to communism

>>16076127
See >>16076104. Add a Pepe picture if you're feeling particularly devilish

>>16076138
There you go, there will never be a fully communist state because it is literally impossible to achieve it. Which is also why it does not work.
The only thing it produces are trails of corpses.

>>16076161
And tell us how fascism turned out.

>>16076136
>Commies seething

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1UtRnGn5hc
Oh no no no.

>>16076176
Projecting

>>16076170
Why are you trying to imply that simply because some one opposes communism, it is necessarily a fascist? Are you this retarded?

The main difference between Fascism and Communism?
Fascism leads to a lower number of deaths.

>>16076188
>Having images like this saved on his computer

Cringe.

>>16076199
I am asking you how fascism turned out in real life. Not only have you avoided the question, you are acting like a redditor

>>16076170
Pretty good, actually. I'd enjoy living in fascist Italy. Wouldn't you?

>>16076205
How long did fascism last, is what I'm asking. Burgers nan

>>16076204
You are acting like a bar thug who thinks that winning a fight is as good as winning an argument.

I mean, you've never thrown a punch in your life, so I guess you can live vicariously through B-52s, Fat Man, Little Boy. Your friends are on the streets, burning and smashing every argument against, uh, whatever it is their dad doesn't like; I bet you're proud.

>>16076161
>impossible to achieve
prove it

>>16076210
You're asking "You think ur bigger n me? Look at how big my guns are"

Typical leftist attitude whenever you're not getting your head flushed down the toilet. Immediate hypocrisy of the bullied wimp.

>>16076204
>I am asking you how fascism turned out in real life.
Be more specific. I know that's hard for lefties.

Not only have you avoided the question.
Learn to ask proper questions.

>you are acting like a redditor
Imagine hearing this from a commie.

>>16076230
>>16076244
Lol cocksuckers

>>16076251
USSR had great socialist policies on cocksuckers.

>>16076247
See >>16076251

>>16076203
I got more if you like.

>>16076210
That's not the same thing as whether it worked. Apart from Germany's obsession with Jews Fascism there and in Italy was very sensible.

>>16076255
Your boyfriend is from there, then?

>>16076238
I don't have to. History did that for us. North Korea, Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, Cambodia. All failed states during communism. The list goes on.

>>16076272
Well capitalist states have failed, fascist states have failed, what else is there to try?

>>16076265
Are there any fascist states now? No. But-but they are totally sensible

>>16076278
I live in a capitalist state and I'm doing just fine as a blue collar worker.

>>16076281
China.

>>16076262
The other one was cringier but keep going. You're making fun of you cumrades at this point.

>>16076272
Every socialist experiment of any significance in the twentieth century — without exception — was either overthrown, invaded, corrupted, perverted, subverted, destabilized, or otherwise had life made impossible for it, by the United States and its allies. Not one socialist government or movement — from the Russian Revolution to the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, from Communist China to the FMLN in El Salvador — not one was permitted to rise or fall solely on its own merits; not one was left secure enough to drop its guard against the all‐powerful enemy abroad and freely and fully relax control at home. It’s as if the Wright brothers’ first experiments with flying machines all failed because the automobile interests sabotaged each test flight. And then the good and god‐fearing folk of the world looked upon these catastrophes, nodded their heads wisely, and intoned solemnly: Humankind shall never fly.

Socialist movements in Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Mongolia, North Korea, and Cuba, brought land reform, and human services; a dramatic bettering of the living conditions of hundreds of millions of people on a scale never before or never since witnessed in human history. Socialist movements transformed desperately poor countries into societies in which everyone had adequate food, shelter, medical care, and education… and some of us who come from poor families, who carry around the hidden injuries of class, are very impressed—are very, very impressed by these achievements, and are not willing to dismiss them as ‘economistic’. To say that socialism doesn’t ‘work’ is to overlook the fact that it did work and that it worked for hundreds of millions of people.

>>16076300
Communism with A hint of capitalism

>>16076300
>China

So, when people aren't starving to death, it's no longer communism?

>>16076307
kinda pathetic
baka

>>16076272
north korea not only still exists, it just ensured its continued existence by getting nukes
it is not even close to a failed state, just because there's no tiktok mcdonalds twerking and niggers doesn't mean it's "failed" although i can see why an american might think that

>>16076307
This is why communist are mentally hill.

>>16076315
Yes, anon, that's exactly what I'm saying. You can go now.

>>16076315
Based.

>>16076327
ABSOLUTELY BTFO.

>>16076006
is that really the best example you have? you’re not a marxist retard you’re a democrat

>>16076300
>china is fascist
top kek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nU-BDGibyk

>>16076307
>Humankind
Cringe.

https://www.nytimes.com/1974/02/06/archives/solzhenitsyns-exwife-says-gulag-is-folklore.html
"Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn's controversial new book on Soviet prison‐camps was described as “folklore” by his former wife in an interview published here today.
Natelya Reshetovskaya told the conservative newspaper Le Figaro that the book, “The Gulag Archipelago, 1918–1956,” was based on unreliable information:
She also told the newspaper's Moscow correspondent that she was still living with Mr. Soizhenitsyn when he wrote the book and that she had typed part of it. They parted in 1970 and were subsequently divorced.
She said: “The subject of ‘Gulag Archipelago,’ as I felt at the moment when he was writing it, is not in fact the life of the country and not even the life of the camps but the folklore of the camps.”

>>16076314
almost like some kind of third way
what a mystery

>>16076352
>Dude... Just like Hitler lmao
No, not at all

>>16076361
just a total mystery

fyi im in the "hitler did literally nothing wrong" group

>>16076307
This is wrong.

The proposition that resources should be allocated ‘from each according to his ability, to each according to his need’ does not work.

The individual has no agency over what happens to the work he produces (like he would in a tribal, or capitalist society). Instead someone must manage the redistribution of resources. Someone with an encyclopaedic knowledge of every resource, every individual, every ability, and every need. Obviously no individual can perform this task - instead a massive bureaucracy is required.

Then, what happens when an individual decides he doesn’t want his labour stolen by this bureaucracy, with nothing given in return?

The bureaucracy has to use force against them. Over 100 million people have been killed by the state for this reason, in Communist countries.

It’s not an anomaly. It’s not because they didn’t implement Communism faithfully. It’s because they did implement Communism faithfully, and the ideas are rotten at the core.

Capitalism, by contrast, allows the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker to go to market and trade with each other. How can a bureaucracy decide what an individual needs? Better than the individual himself? And so people in a liberal, capitalist society simply sell what they can, and buy what they need. No need for any interference, and yet everybody gets fed and clothed.

By allowing people freedom in their choice of buying and selling, you don’t need to keep track of every minor promise and transaction, like some overzealous parent. They work things out by themselves. Humans have been doing this for millennia, long before the word ‘capitalism’ was coined. Or before coins were coined, for that matter.

Equality of outcome leads to organised mass-murder. Choose freedom instead.

The classic Marxist line is that the Workers control the means of production. Not a worker, not the worker who’s producing, but The Workers. This invariably means that whoever takes and redistributes resources claims to do so on behalf of The Workers, or The People, but this gives the individual worker even less agency than he has in the employ of a capitalist factory owner.

>>16076332
>>16076315
The Communist Party of China calls China's system a "socialist consultative democracy".
>"Consultative democracy was created by the CPC and the Chinese people as a form of socialist democracy. ... Not only representing a commitment to socialism, it carries forward China’s political and cultural traditions. Not only representing a commitment to the organizational principles and leadership mode of democratic centralism, it also affirms the role of the general public in a democracy. Not only representing a commitment to the leadership of the CPC, it also gives play to the role of all political parties and organizations as well as people of all ethnic groups and all sectors of society"

>>16076340
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
>>16075982
exploitation is a crime

>>16076389
meant for >>16076300

>>16076389
>>16076398
>Commies
>Defending criminals
>Can't quote

kek

>>16075735
>except not really. In the least

>>16076407
>You
>Not stroking my coco while your mom watches

>>16076407
exploitation is a crime

>>16076281
Idk why you think this is an argument for their not being sensible, they just had very powerful enemies.

>>16076288
What about the third world capitalist countries? There are people living comfortably in China as well

>>16076382
>Instead someone must manage the redistribution of resources. Someone with an encyclopaedic knowledge of every resource, every individual, every ability, and every need. Obviously no individual can perform this task - instead a massive bureaucracy is required.
Boomer, we live in the 21st century, what is a computer?

>>16076452
The problem is that you would have to know the individual desires of every person, they'd have to like...update every few hours by typing into an app or something.

>>16075851
> rumored to have died a virgin
kek, someone didn't read Eva Brauns personal memoirs, apparently they fucked like rabbits.

>>16076452
>>16076412
>>16076419
Don't worry. You too will grow out of communism.

>>16076444
How many of those countries wave a communist flag too?

I do not understand your point. Are you assuming that poor countries would have prosperity overnight if they implemented communism?

>>16075735
this faggot only consumed, and produced bullshit fetishized by west to force russia bad enemy meme.

>>16076460
>You can't stockpile under communism
>what is machine learning
It literally is a non argument you're making.

>>16076315
faggot, if you want to eat, but not fit for job market, economy, you are not people, but faggot.

>>16076484
I don't think you understood what I said. You would have to somehow know what every person wanted, since they wouldn't be sending those signals themselves like they do in a market

>>16076484
>t.zero idea of what he's talking about

Ok brainlet

I actually do know what I'm talking about because I mine crypto currency you shitter

>>16076278
yeah, look around, one huge failure.

>>16076487
Oh, then why did Lenin literally killed the most productive workers during the revolution?

Please answer that one. I don't even try to deny that millions of people starved to death because of it.

>>16076006
those people in the camp, are they capitalists or communists?

>>16076521
Capitalism failed so hard that people are literally fleeing from perfect socialist states to be oppressed in the US.

>>16075813
if you just saw those "people", stupid orthodox peasants, you would become hitler yourself.

Remember that you can buy human meat under communism.

>>16076507
who told you this bullshit? workers work. if worker does not work, but seethe, he is not worker, but declassified element, scum. show me their CV, faggot.

>>16076482
Idiot. He was a Russian Nationalist to the core. So much so that he believed in Jewish Bolshevism as the cause of the Revolution of 1917.

He tried to separate Soviet Communism from Russian culture.

>>16075735
Who is this guy?

>>16076541
under industrial revolution, man. peasants replaced by ford trucks.

>>16076492
I'm not sure about consumer preferences, but the same authors also published a treatise on the subject of socialist economic planning called Towards A New Socialism which goes into enormous detail on a proof-of-concept system.

I haven't read it in a few years, but from what I remember, all goods are priced in accordance with the amount of labour-hours required to produce them. Based on hour-to-hour demand, it either increases or decreases the price to reach a rough demand-supply equilibrium, then passes the information back through the supply-chain. Ideally, you'd have predictive models which would anticipate these fluctuations instead of blindly chasing an equilibrium price.

I think the most important article you should read is a Jacobin article, The Red And Black, which compares the efficiencies of socialist and capitalist economies.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/12/the-red-and-the-black/

>>16076547
he was useless faggot who did not create value. show me his CV, skill set.

>>16076559
Ad hominem

>>16076382
Based.

>>16076615
I wouldn’t expect a teenager to know what that is.

>>16076559
how does a dissident in a communist state build up job experience, exactly
you want him to list log chopping expertise, or what

>>16076492
>>16076558
Oops also meant to link this:
http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/4476/1/4476.pdf
Basically read cockshot, he explains how resource allocation can be done through computing.

>>16076558
>https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/12/the-red-and-the-black/
>he anarchist activist Michael Albert and the economist Robin Hahnel have devised a system they call Participatory Economics in which every individual’s freely made decisions about production and consumption would be coordinated by means of a vast society-wide plan formulated through a “participatory” process with no central bureaucracy.

>Parecon, as it’s called, is an interesting exercise for our purposes, because it rigorously works out exactly what would be needed to run such an “anarchist” economy. And the answer is roughly as follows: At the beginning of each year, everyone must write out a list of every item he or she plans to consume over the course of the year, along with the quantity of each item.

This is what I was getting at with the (not serious) suggestion about the app people would type stuff into. I skimmed the rest, but it didnt really explain how the alternatives would work, it just said that a 'team of experts' could figure out what everyone needed and then talked about historical examples. Then there was a bit about market socialism, which imo is interesting idea.

>>16076640
I can't say that I really understood this paper but thanks anyway, I will check out Cockshot.

Commies absolutely btfo.

>>16076637
yeah, call all jobless faggots dissidents. SHOW ME HIS CV.

>>16076615
go create business, and hire someone like this dude. no?

>>16075735
If the Soviet Union was so evil, why did they allow Solzhenitsyn to stay alive?

>>16076820
it's entirely possible to be evil and totally lame at the same time

>>16076735
cvs are for slaves, which is to say, they're just paperwork for pieces of property. i like owning and not being owned

>>16076476
I'm saying that since there have been failed capitalist states then capitalism is ultimately a failure.

>>16076503
Yes

>>16075914
Y I K E S

>>16076820
Kicking people out tends to cause less issues than executing them

>>16076094
https://youtu.be/l3s7PSjuCtE?t=491

>>16076884
But to suffer from reality one must be a botched reality. kys. those who don't like a game simply logout. die stupid pederast, spawn of natalists.

>>16076843
according to your "logic" you and Solzhenitsyn are communists!

>>16075735
reminder to stupid faggots out of moms basement with TV. no industrial country needs 85% of peasants in population. they were replaced by ford trucks and had to disappear. killing each other in wars and genocides is just how it is done. they all were children of natalists, migrants via vagina border without education and work permit or contract. easy cum easy go.

>Communist country about to purpose the US for the largest economy

>>16076893
There would be no issues if they executed him. He was nobody back then.

>>16076110
Based in Germany =/= German.He was a Jew in Germany.

>>16076307
cope

>>16076916
>https://youtu.be/l3s7PSjuCtE?t=491

Brilliant!

>>16075745
>N-Not real communism
Lmao

Sissies are mad because they will never live in communism.

>>16075745
100 million dead.

>>16078621
Exactly. Few thing’s are more pathetic than this argument.

To which I ask, what is then true communism? Because according to these commies we have never seen it.

Commies seething.

>>16079085
True communism is when the system finally works infallibly. In the same way a Fascist might say "true fascism has never been tried" or a Monarchist might say "true monarchism has never been tried" and so on

Are we not going to talk about the hair and beard here?

>>16076343
Then what does that make all the holocaust stories?

>>16079147
>haha he have silly hair and beard loool
>this is very pertinent to a discussion on literature amirite fellow 4channers?

>>16076492
>>16076484
Instead of figuring out what people want just do it the other way around. Assign people desires through advertising with machine learning. What do you think Facebook, Google, etc are doing right now?

>>16079147
He's Russian, he gets a pass for bad hair
It'd be like expecting an American not to have poor posture

>>16079154
Yes.

>>16079164
2 deep 4 me.

>>16079116
We will never achieve it.

>>16076307
To come so close to grasping the ledge of enlightenment yet to end up with mere dust and pebbles in ones hand as the tumble back down into the abyss is a sad sight. Examine, in detail, the implications of your first paragraph

>>16079116
>true monarchism has never been tried
Except it has and it actually propelled backwater shitholes on to the global stage and provided the basis for nearly every contemporary major european powers economic well being. The next revolution will be in recognition of the failure of the democratic experiment and will stipulate a return to the monarchy or there simply will be no revolution. Commies must learn that, in a sick twist of fate, their rivals have found a way to integrate their revolution into their own paradigm and thus the only way to defeat the egregious distribution of wealth that capitalism necessitates lies along the monarchs path

>>16079339
Communists simply do not understand that every one has to be n agreement for their system to work.

Which is impossible by default.

>>16075735
I feel like nobody in this thread has actually read the Gulag Archipelago or did any research into what Solzenitsyn went through to write his book.

I much prefer Bezmenov because he loves that brown coochie, just like me.

>>16075851
wow... i am sexually and intellectually attracted to this women.

>>16076307
based