/lit/ - Literature

>>16069495
many people use marx as a way to feel intellectually superior despite the fact that they're not politically engaged in any real way. i know some american leftists who identify as communist and use it as a cop out to disengage from any other discourse. personally, i think communism makes a lot of sense, but it's unlikely that the US implements such a system overnight, so it's more important to focus on practical things we can improve like becoming monke

Yea pretty much no one who labels themselves as "leftist" has ever read Marxist lit. What we have today is a bunch of infantile anus devouring sodomites leading a life of excess who would rather read woke twitter threads than marx.

>>16069531
what is 'woke twitter'? can you show me an account representative?

>>16069531
This. I'd guarantee any internet commie has probably not even read Marx outside random quotes. Also they probably don't even know all that much about things like politics or basic economics. Most people just like saying they are communist for cool kid internet clout

>>16069495
My old history teacher, who I still talk to, was an avid Marxist. Only dropped out of academia because he wanted to engage the youth in history more. He was telling me how he used to teach this one girl who was a Marxist-Anarchist whatever, but he could tell it was a phase, because she literally joined a party because she had a crush on a boy who was a member. Now she's a McKinsey consultant.

I think Marxism is sort of a 'cool' ideology for a lot of people, especially normie academic types, but I don't think most of them (especially the bourgeois ones) actually give a shit about class. They're more concerned with calling pronoun debates, representation of women in STEM and immigrant worship 'leftism' rather than actually fighting for the working class. I think they just enjoy the spectacle of it, and I meet too many people who are like the McKinsey girl. They'll claim Marxism but they'll turn around and call Pelosi a 'queen' or whatever.

Hopefully when rednecks and inner city blacks unite they'll purge the whole bunch of them, me included. Fuck the middle class.

>>16069554
Yeah see, this is the shit that drives me insane. Transphobes *can* be communists. Racists *can* be communists. Sexists *can* be communists. Communism is about class. These idiots are fucking cointelpro shitwads who would spit on every worker they actually met because they listened to Joe Rogan and said the n word.

>>16069516
based

>>16069550
I'm sure it's been pointed out ad nauseam, but learning Marxist talking points is ironically a class marker denoting higher status. Being a marxist distinguishes you from those awful uneducated flyover proles

>>16069564
This is definitely true. I'm definitely professional-managerial upper middle class. Problem is the red liberals don't even have the genuine sympathy of individuals like Lenin or Marx, who actually wanted (to the best of my knowledge) a better world for working people. They just want the cool points. Its the same reason hipsters drink onions lattes and embrace veganism or whatever; they don't care about the environment, they just care about the aesthetic.

>>16069546
It's like with roaches - once u sight one you'll know it's a roach.

>>16069571
cockroaches move in a distinctive hard to predict pattern not unlike a butterfly. It can't be that hard to link me to a woke commie account, I just want to see what they are.

>>16069558
This is why people don't think communism will ever work. I am from a very poor working class background in the uk, everyone who I've ever worked with has been racist, generally ignorant and intolerant of anything that wasn't a bloke and his family minding their own business.
There will never be a worker-led revolt, because the workers don't want it.

That's why the workers and the working class rhetoric is detaching itself from the core of these modern commies, because they know workers are not on their side, they know they don't come from background where they' had to graft.

But instead of creating a new movement they will leech off of the imagery and power of commies to already have a subversive shorthand against the west, but it will remain impotent, at least organically, because no one in reality connects their rhetoric, their struggle with anything other than whining.

>>16069495
It's been deified

>>16069550
self-hating nonsense, the people we call the "middle class" are for the most part proletarian, whereas the average beer drinking "blue collar" lout who works as self-employed plumber or whatever is most certainly not

Stop making these fucking threads

>>16069593
this is quite the post anon

>>16069593
Are you a communist? Or an idiot? The middle class is objectively a separate entity to the working class. Rather, they're separate classes in themselves. You can't tell me the average brickie is the sociopolitical identity as a business analyst. Both are exploited by capital, but both play very different roles in the class struggle. Marx himself thought so, and never was so stupid as to say Napoleon III, for instance, had a 'proletarian' backing; he had a peasant backing, even if those peasants were working labourers. You can't even have the capitalist class as the same entity. Financial capitalists, industrial capitalists and the petty bourgeoisie are incredibly different.

>>16069584
The genuine left has its best chance in achieving its goals by abandoning communism. Embracing monke is really the only choice.

>>16069560
is the one at the bottom right implying they're a pedo?

>>16069583
>>16069560

>>16069566
I can't say I know what sort of sympathies Lenin or Marx had but in general people will only deign to pity a class below them so long as there is absolutely no chance of their being confused with that class. What is paramount is that they are clearly distinct, they are above, that is more important than anything else.

I personally don't believe many middle class or higher Marxists would accept a Communist revolution if it meant that they would lose social status.

>>16069620
I think the middle classes have the worst fear of loss of any class, and that definitely plays into their complicity.

>>16069566
The problem is always rich kids. Parents want to spoil them, they are pampered and isolated from reality so they think reality should bend to their whims and sensibilities. They have the money, leisure, and station to seep into anything they want to seep into. They love slumming because they fear inauthenticity, so they naturally try to seep into any legitimate movements and turn them into comfortable "safe spaces" for themselves.

Corrupt entrepreneurs and other rapacious archetypes of capitalism are one thing, but their fucking children are the real cancer that destroys civilization. Capital wouldn't be so bad if it only accumulated to merit. The tragedy of capital is that it accumulates to capital. Only takes one generation of genius to establish the initial pile for a thousand generations of worthless shit.

>>16069560
why is their bio always "mental illness | mental illness | mental illness | mental illness"

>>16069629
because it's a fetish

>>16069625
The upper class just feel invincible, they aren't any less concerned with status. They would never accept being equals with burger flippers or the plumbers the other 'marxist' in this thread was deriding.

>>16069605
i'm simply stating the view of class stratification as seen thru the lens of marxism, i'm not saying it has anything to do with what normal people see as "class", through which their confused understanding of marxism derives... like the person above's masochistic fantasy of a racially diverse lumpenprole collective exterminating the middle classes

you can have people who view themselves as middle class purely due to identity (accent, upbringing, neighborhood they live in) that has no bearing on their economic reality (wage earners, their income might even be less than the petit bourgeois "blue collar" man who comes from and still identifies with a lower social status). in other words, the difference is material vs identity.

marxism as a commodity and aesthetic identifier is certainly a "middle class" thing tho, no doubt about it

>>16069550
>Hopefully when rednecks and inner city blacks unite they'll purge the whole bunch of them, me included. Fuck the middle class.

You are based but >>16069593 has a point.

>>16069657
What point does he have? He is just expressing contempt for blue collar workers, masking it as marxism when most of them are proletarian, and those that do own their own means usually don't even have any employees.

>>16069662
>most of them are proletarian

most blue collar workers are proletarian, sure, but not all, in other words blue collar and proletarian are not the same, most of those you call middle class are proletarian too, that's my point... and blue collar blacks and whites uniting to "purge" them would have nothing to do with marxist revolution, in fact the ruling class would probably be the ones egging them on so long as it ends there and goes no further, but it's a fantasy anyway, the black proles know fine well that the white proles are their true enemy and vice versa, after all the bourgeoisie told them so

also see >>16069644

>>16069662
I don't agree with him on blue collar workers, in the sense that indeed, I saw myself in my country that they mostly share identity and interest with what you would call proletarians.

I just agreed on the fact that middle class are most of the time upper proletarians ( getting impoverished year by year due to globalization ) who delude themselves and only try to take pride and build identity with the fact that they are "well educated and not poor". Thing is, we know for a fact that their destiny if left unchecked is to be dumped, -just like the industry workers from decades ago- of the economic system. The magic of the post war 3 golden decades is that the capitalist system actually managed to elevate it's workers. Nowadays even middle class are doomed.

Look at them : Ever worsening work condition, housing cost off the charts, their children are depressed as fuck with no sense or purpose...

In my opinion, there really isn't any middle class. Only proletariat, lumpenproleriat, and petty bourgeoisie with the oligarchy above. I believe you really talk about petty bourgeoisie.

The petty bourgeoisie don't give a fuck about class. The upper liberal democratic proletariat believe that identity politics ARE class politics but they are the fool in the story. Not sure if that's clear.

>>16069516
>i think communism makes a lot of sense
are you anorexic?

>>16069593
You've never actually worked in a factory, have you? Most beer-gut, sexist/homophobic, dimwitted louts are the lower working class.

>>16069593
>self-hating nonsense, the people we call the "middle class" are for the most part proletarian, whereas the average beer drinking "blue collar" lout who works as self-employed plumber or whatever is most certainly not
hhahahahahahahhahaha

>>16069870
That's your brain on neomarxism.

>Folks, the bourgeois, they're no good, more and more people are saying it. All these workers— the biggest, we have the biggest workers— very handsome workers come up to me and say, Comrade Trump there is a specter haunting the US, and you know what, they're right. These bourgeois are very nasty people, very very rude, and very unfair to the workers. They are stealing our surplus value and no one is doing anything about it. The proletariat comes up to me every day and says, Comrade Trump will you lead the revolution? And I gotta turn to them and say look, the instruments of capitalism will be used to bring about its destruction, believe me. The means of production, Obama never wanted to seize them. Well guess what? I'm seizing them. Landlords? They're done for folks. Everyone told me— they said, Comrade Trump you won't be the vanguard of the revolution and they would laugh, the media laughed the democrats laughed, guess who's laughing now?

>>16069940
I hate to say it but I laughed

Marx literally killed socialism. Scientific socialism was a mistake.

>>16070559
>Marx literally killed socialism. Scientific socialism was a mistake.

>>16070559
My favourite socialism is the national kind.

>>16069940
>The means of production, Obama never wanted to seize them.
hilarious

>>16069629
because they're pagans and they're listing the gods they are subscribed to.

>>16069761
>are you anorexic?
TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS NEEDS YOU FAT FUCK

no he was a grifter and those who currently sopport his beliefs are too

>>16069495
It's always been gentrified, anon.

>>16069593
>the people we call the "middle class" are for the most part proletarian, whereas the average beer drinking "blue collar" lout who works as self-employed plumber or whatever is most certainly not
What are they then? I’m genuinely curious. In my understanding of Marxist thought, the people who sell their labor in exchange for capital are the proletariat.

Now I’ll admit that I’m not familiar with
Marxism and only have a layman’s knowledge, but I find this notion absurd. Do you toss them in with the lumpenproles? Because that’s objectively not the case. I’ve worked in construction my entire life, beside both Union and non-union workers. The beer drinking self-employed plumber is far more self aware than you give him credit for, and while there are certainly those who are lumpenproles they fall at the end of normal distribution.
If you have general contempt for blue collar workers, I see that as much more of a bourgeoisie trait. The amount of dirty looks I’ve received while working in office buildings and hospitals astounds me, as my labor is necessary to keep the institutions in good repair and functional. While those people obviously aren’t bourgeoise, they have the same condescension towards me as the CEOs and the single billionaire I’ve interacted.
But I can assure you that if this is your attitude towards the labor that works behind the scenes to keep civilization floating, the ideology that guides it is untenable.

>>16069495
yes by controlling the affirmative narrative surrounding marxism they can contort marxists into whatever they want.

>>16069495
The term "gentrified" implies a becoming; that is, that something wasn't already of the gentry from the start. Of the two founders of Marxism, one was the son of a middle class family who refused to work and had the historically unique privilege of being able to survive and write despite that, and the other was the son of rich capitalists who financed the former. Its preponderance among rich professors who make their livings siphoning money from poor students is not a change, but a continuation. Marxism is the single most bourgeois ideology there is.

>>16069608
>Embracing monke is really the only choice.
But how?

>>16069516
Communism is anti-constitutional.