/lit/ - Literature

>>16049122
Have sex

Well... you know ugh...
could you repeat the question?

>>16049135
Fpbp

>>16049122
Say it’s Talmudic in principle. Which it is.

diversity is strength and nazis are retarded

there /thread

>>16049135
I’m a Nazi but I audibly kek’d at this

>>16049135
Himmler had sex and he was a Nazi. Would you still say that to him?

>>16049122
That their anticommunism was retarded and fucked them over, leaving liberalism triumphant.

>>16049200
>anticommunism was retarded

>>16049200
funny thing, in south america the catholic church and a few other religions made communism impossible

>>16049232
I'm an ally of any and all anti communists

>>16049122
read Adorno

>>16049422
Why?

>>16049441
because he philosophically refutes fascism

>>16049449
I guess that would work if Nazism couldn't be refuted. I think it would be better to look at Nazism piece by piece and see what makes sense and what doesn't.

>>16049422
Anyone who replies with “read x” and not explaining should be banned

>>16049122
K there's no "refutations" in philosophy since you can just attack any premise of the refutation lel.
>>16049159
Yeah that's why a ton of white nations who only allowed white people in and a 90 percent European megacountry with anti-miscegination laws in 47 of its states won against the German/Ottoman/Japanese/Italian/Islamic alliance: because they had Diversity (TM) and had modern corporate HR ideology!

>>16049160
Ok well if you're dumb enough to term yourself a "Nazi" you already lost. GG white nationalism.

>>16049122
What is Nazi ideology? Racialism, Germanism, and particularism. That's what differentiates Nazism from other right-wing ideologies that might be grouped under a similar genus. What is the point of defending Nazism if you're not German? What is the literal function of an Anglo Nazi?

Culture and race is a spook.

Its like that 23 fallacy.
you look hard enough at anything, your mind eventually finds an expalnation that justifies your beliefs.

Hitler could have hated the sun instead of the jews, and he still would have achieved his own ends, by rallying his CONSTIUENCY under the guise of a national hatred, towards the sun, instead of conniving and "fraudulent" neighbors.

You're welcome you fucking nigger kike faggot.

>>16049608
>Culture and race is a spook.
>Its like that 23 fallacy.
>you look hard enough at anything, your mind eventually finds an expalnation that justifies your beliefs.
>Hitler could have hated the sun instead of the jews, and he still would have achieved his own ends, by rallying his CONSTIUENCY under the guise of a national hatred, towards the sun, instead of conniving and "fraudulent" neighbors.
>You're welcome you fucking nigger kike faggot.

>>16049531
anyone who makes "how does one philosophically refute x..." threads should be banned

>>16049122
By demonstrating that this understanding of history and economics has no connection to reality and that totalitairianism based on very amorphous concepts is bound to lead to bad outcomes.

>>16049232
Since when was the CIA a religion

Its honestly enough to point out that most Germans have a significant degree of Slavic ancestry, then the whole racial supremacy thing crumbles.
The belief that the history/truth is made by the strong is of course true, that said the Nazis lost. So there is nothing to refute, their claim to the world was refuted by their defeat.

>>16049122
Reminder that leftypol raids /lit/ daily, and they do it for free. They want to turn /lit/ into /pol/, except instead of "da joos" and hitler it will be "da porky" and king karl.
https://bunkerchan DOT xyz/leftypol/res/720042.html
Reminder that leftypol raids /lit/ daily, and they do it for free. They want to turn /lit/ into /pol/, except instead of "da joos" and hitler it will be "da porky" and king karl.
https://bunkerchan DOT xyz/leftypol/res/720042.html
Reminder that leftypol raids /lit/ daily, and they do it for free. They want to turn /lit/ into /pol/, except instead of "da joos" and hitler it will be "da porky" and king karl.
https://bunkerchan DOT xyz/leftypol/res/720042.html

>>16049608
K but refusing to gang up in teams in fealty to libertarianism is the biggest spook of all.

>>16049687
who cares, if anything it just offers useful opportunity to hone argumentative skill. hide the threads if you don't like them, that's what I do half the time

>>16049687
Politics on the internet was a mistake.

>>16049697
The reason why you need to gang up in the first place is a spook.

>>16049122

Not very hard. I mean the nazis didn't really have a philosophy, they were purposefully vague or disingenuous about what they believe, and went against almost all of their supposed beliefs once they got into power. Their really only belief was their willingness to say and do anything, especially illegal stuff, in order to obtain power.

The only thing belief they held onto was Aryan supremacy (NOT white supremecy as many modern nitwits seem to think). They believed their nordic, germanic, ayran race (the aryans were a band of proto-austrians around the time of the fall of the western roman empire, so they're kind of misusing the term, but w/e), was superior to all other races, including franks, anglos, ruskies, slavs, scandinavians (weird because you'd think they'd be Nordic butt brothers), American mutts, and especially jews, and could conquer the world they just set their mind to it.

Well....you saw what happened with that.

>>16049713
Easy access to the Internet in general

>>16049122
They really were fucked no matter what. Once Poland refused to ally and go pro U.K they were fucked. They were treated w hostility from America/U.K/France collation then the USSR in the East which was a huge headache. Their philosophy of expansion was inevitable or they had no chance.

>>16049762
I swear one day there won't even be separate boards. Everything under one board /newfags/ and every post will be the same circle of "u jew/nigger" and replied back to with "no u racist/rich". Imagine being so autistic that you think internet activism on a mongolian basketweaving forum does anything at all.

>>16049681
This is very, very good if true
>>16049687
I'm not leftypol you paranoid mongoloid

>>16049608
>Hitler could have hated the sun instead of the jews, and he still would have achieved his own ends
Maybe
>>16049669
I was thinking this too. Who really wants to live in a totalitarian police state?

>>16049771
Also the U.K declaring war on Germany for Poland was shocking Hitler couldn't believe it. U.K lost their crumbling but salvageable empire. The rest is history. If you were Hitler you woulda expanded too, no choice

>>16049608
>Culture and race is a spook.
Nothing is real I'm enlightened xD

>>16049855
Prove they are real

>>16049819
>I'm not leftypol
>I just made another anti nazi thread even though there are like three currently already up in the catalog
>I didn't make it on /his/ because clearly /lit/ is for this topic!!!
K.

>>16049723
Yeah sure meanwhile everybody else teams up and BTFOs you but don't worry you getting executed is just a "spook" too.

>>16049864
K meanwhile everybody else will just ignore your cute pontifications, team up, and shit down your throat and you can say it's fine because that's just a spook too.

>>16049723
>>16049864
Midwit

Nothing's real and everything is a spook because I'm an impressionable young adult who read Striner once even though I'm still consumed by said spooks xD

Philosophically speaking, they only put up an ironic front.

>Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play.
>They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

>>16049934
They were an obstacle towards German nationalism and expansion. Anti semitism today is stupid I'll agree there

>>16049894
If you don't have an understanding of "inna woods" you are too new to post.

>>16049946
>>16049934
Anti-semitism today only makes sense for Americans and Muslims. Europeans are probably better off working with Israel than not though.

>>16050022
Resources are scarce and collectives are strategically superior to individuals, nerd.

>>16050089
>thinking that anything other than your mind is what determines a "resource"
>implying groups act more intelligently then idividuals
fucking retard, go get simped on by your group "alphas"

>>16049232
in south america communism was a front for cartels to get control of government and grow their coca legally

>>16049687
Pretty these threads are made by anons who just want shit posting and dont feel strongly about either side.

>>16050117
Think you replied to the wrong person bud, nothing in there applies to my post.

>>16049122
Genocide is wrong. Starting wars of aggression is wrong. There you win, Nazis lose like always.

>>16049687
This makes a lot of sense, there's definitely been a weird uptick in /leftypol/-tier shit going on here. It's kind of annoying because it's all very clearly astroturf.

>>16050147
>1910
>Nazis
uhhh

>>16050154
Yes that's when the top census was taken you subliterate ass.

>>16049122
Nazism doesn't make sense in the context of 2020

>>16050148
I find it amusing because they actually think it will make a difference, instead of their just getting discouraged in a few days or week or whatever.

>>16050173
Why are you calling me illiterate when you're the one taking a map from 1910 and photoshopping a nazi quote onto it? Did you not notice that until now?

>>16050148
t. permanewfag election tourist who thinks 4chan was always the way it was when you came post 2016

I was posting on 4chan during Bush's presidency and can assure you that this community was contrarian once and not conservative ever, however desperately the lot of you want to rebuild r/thedonald.

>>16050213
Can you not read filenames either you fucking retard? And the top map is from 1910, like it says, the bottom is post 1945.

>>16050227
>t. newfag
I remember when politics wasn't spammed on every board. Right or Left, they have to fuck off back to r*ddit.

>>16050227
I've been here since 2008 faggot. Don't sit here and act like it was ever normal for every thread to be filled with retards calling each other chuds for not agreeing with Goldman sachs HR policy.

>>16050241
The filename is just a 4chan image number, not sure what you're talking about there. Yeah you're right the second map is 1945 but why would you compare it to a pre-ww1 map and then post a picture of Goebbels next to it?

>>16050268
>I've been here since 2008 faggot.

Oh wow years after me and when Obama was president and the contrarians were larping as conservatives. Way to prove my point, faggot.

how come no one told me that national socialism is literally just capitalism with regulations to help boost quality of life? i was always told it was like china with their sweatshops and stuff

>>16050285
>Yeah you're right the second map is 1945 but why would you compare it to a pre-ww1 map and then post a picture of Goebbels next to it?

What's it a map of you fucking stupid faggot? Jesus Christ.

>>16050285
Not the guy you're replying to: WWII resulted in the destruction of almost all German communities in Eastern Europe. More than fifteen million German civilians who had resided in their towns and villages for centuries were forcibly uprooted and sent to Germany, often in densely packed trains without any food or water. Millions died. The upshot of this is that the Nazi project resulted in the physical annihilation and deportation of Germans outside of Germany, that is, the opposite of its initial aims.

>>16050288
Obama wasn't sworn in until 2009. In 2008 edgy atheism and jon stewart-tier thinking was still what everyone was doing. Fuck, it was that way on /b/ until /pol/ got raided by stormfront for a couple years straight. You sure you were posting on here then?

>>16050251
My whole point is that it was always a larp, first to shit on Bush then Obama, until the true believer "conservative activist" GOP dicksuckers came from reddit with gamergate and the election.

>>16050338
>Millions died.

[citation desperately needed]

I suppose you're a holocaust denier too.

>>16050300
You realize Germany lost WW1 right? And that WW1 happened in the timespan of your maps there?

>>16050338
The irony of the post though is that Germany was starting a war over territory that they owned in his first map, I guess is what I'm getting at

>>16050352
No. Here are my sources:

Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans after the Second World War by Ray M. Douglas, Professor of History at Colgate University
Against Their Will: The History and Geography of Forced Migrations in the USSR by Pavel Markovich Polian, a Russian historian and leading member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, among many other things.
Maccoвыe Bыceлeния Heмцeв в CCCP и Cтpaнaз Цeнтpaльнoй и Bocтoчнoй Eвpoпы: Oпыт Иcтopикo-Coциoлoгичecкoгo Aнaлизa by Cepгeй Bлaдимиpoвич Кpeтинин, Professor of History at Voronezh State University, in Haчaльный пepиoд Beликoй Oтeчecтвeннoй вoйны и дeпopтaция poccийcких нeмцeв: взгляды и oцeнки чepeз 70 лeт.

>>16050367
>You realize Germany lost WW1 right? And that WW1 happened in the timespan of your maps there?

My God you are dense. Post WWI German speakers outside of Germany weren't made to return to the fatherland.

>>16050376
Where are the relevant passages citing "millions" of deaths and what are the sources of that information?

>>16050352
The Holocaust happened but it is an unextraordinary event in both the context of the 20th century, where we could compare it to tragedies in the Ukraine, Turkey, or China, and in wider history, where we could compare it to numerous events magnitudes larger such as the colonization of America, Mongol conquests, or any number of Chinese civil wars.

>>16050379
But their national borders weren't the same anon, you know this right? The guy in the picture was fighting to take land that your first map clearly shows they owned. That's not a war of aggression, is it?

>>16050385
I don't presently have access to these books, because I gathered this information several years ago, so you're simply going to have to take my word for it. Between one and two million died. I have no clue why you doubt me, considering that the brutality of the postwar settlement is well-documented in all European languages.

>>16050412
That map does not show territory that they owned. It shows territory on which German-speakers resided. You would have to argue that Austria, Luxembourg, Switzerland, all of Eastern Europe, and small pieces of the United States are rightful German territory in order to make such a point.

>>16050393
>unextraordinary event in both the context of the 20th century, where we could compare it to tragedies in the Ukraine, Turkey, or China, and in wider history, where we could compare it to numerous events magnitudes larger such as the colonization of America, Mongol conquests, or any number of Chinese civil wars.

Name 1 (one) genocide among those you cited or any others which were industrialized.

>>16050438
>You would have to argue that Austria, Luxembourg, Switzerland, all of Eastern Europe, and small pieces of the United States are rightful German territory

>>16050455
It wasn't 'industrialized' they mostly starved like the other genocides

>>16050412
Following your logic all of the US is rightfully subordinate to the English government.

>>16050426
I know plenty died but the only ones I've heard citing millions of deaths are holocaust deniers who also think literal millions perished in the firebombing of Dresden.

>>16050463
No the greatest number of deaths took place in the six or so Polish death camps. Starvation and disease in the rest of the camps comes after.

>>16050494
death camps are a meme the soviets made up, whenever the west actually inspected one they realized it wasnt a death camp

>>16050455
I'm who you responded to. Define industrial, most of the people killed in the Holocaust were either gunned down by einsatzgruppen in Eastern Europe or died in death marches. This, coincidentally, is why the retards who try to do the math on how long it would take the death camp system to kill 6 million people always come up with an unrealistically long number.

>>16050502
Before I get into the Leutcher report let's take a look at these contemporaneous Polish accounts coming out of Nazi occupied, not Soviet occupied, Poland.

>>16049122
They lost.

>>16050480
Do you think that the Russian scholars I cited are Holocaust deniers? The first source documents the deportations as a whole, so you might want to look at that, if it's on libgen. And I'm aware that relatively few died in Dresden. I've actually never understood why Dresden has become a symbol of Allied hypocrisy, given that the various air raids carried out over Japan and Operation Starvation killed far more.

>>16050517

>>16050506
Between one and one and a half million Jews were killed by the Einzsatzgruppen's mass shootings, that many died at Auschwitz-Birkenau alone. Add Chelmno, Sobibor, Belzec and the others and you've got the majority of the deaths.

>This, coincidentally, is why the retards who try to do the math on how long it would take the death camp system to kill 6 million people always come up with an unrealistically long number.

They do that because they conflate the time it takes a modern sanitary burial cremation to be completed with the rate the Nazis were going.

>>16050549
>They do that because they conflate the time it takes a modern sanitary burial cremation to be completed with the rate the Nazis were going.
And also because an enormous number of Jews were simply killed in their homes and villages.

>>16050525
Look I'm not saying you're lying I'm curious where these Russians got their numbers from. The holocaust death toll comes from cross referencing pre and post war census data, the Nazis' deportation lists to and from the ghettos and camps, and analyses of the mass graves. Were the Soviets as meticulous with their incriminating paperwork?

>>16050580
>analyses of the mass graves.
lol

>>16050555
Yes but overall that only amounted to about a quarter of the overall deaths. The majority died in the camps and the majority of those victims died in the camps specifically outfitted for mass murder. Going back to the original point that's what sets the holocaust apart from any other genocide.

>>16050549
so what, you're saying that because 2-3 million people were gassed instead of shot or starve that makes this more extraordinary than other contemporary or even more recent genocides where magnitudes more people were exterminated by more traditionnal means? That doesn't seem a compelling argument at all. The Holocaus absolutely gets very special treatment and it is entirely unjustified if we're putting it in the context of how other genocides are treated.

>>16050580
Those are post-Soviet Russian scholars, and the death toll numbers likely come from the first source. Again, just go look it up on libgen, or even on Wikipedia, and you'll see what I'm not making anything up.
>>16050599
Would you happen to know of the breakdown for ethnic Poles and Slavs?

>>16050592
I suppose you think that's funny because you believe Carlo Mattogno "debunked" the existence of those burial sites with his GPR scans. He certainly has claimed to have done so. But he's never publicly released those scans. And why not? He says he has the smoking gun proving the holocaust is a hoax but no one else can see it. Is "just trust me bro" enough proof by itself? Holocaust deniers seem to think so.

>>16050608
I'm not the guy you're replying to.
1. I don't think you can point to any genocide larger than that perpetrated by the Nazis against the populations of Eastern Europe.
2. The point your interlocutor has been trying to make is that the scale, intentionality, ideological nature, and industrial methods of the Nazi murders is what makes them so exceptional. In no other case do we see the entire military, political, and economic apparatus of a state bent towards the destruction of entire populations for the sake of pure ideology.

>>16050611
The Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry tried to break it down by nationality by 1946. These are still only Jewish deaths though, wartime fatalities among Polish and Slavic non-Jews aren't included here.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/angap03.asp

>>16049608
>culture is a spook
i genuinely cant imagine what its like to be this retarded

>>16049122
It's easy. There is a limit to the power of force to reshape the world. If you look at what the nazis really tried to do it is a lot like manic psychosis on the collective scale. They tried to invade the entire world, being simultaneously at war with >20 countries including all the world's non-axis major powers. With such reasoning even on a military level it's no surprise how WW2 ended. From an outsider perspective the nazi war strategy seemed insane on its face.

But on a wider, ideological, philosophical level the idea that you can just fight and defeat everyone and have your way is an apish mentality. The nazi war machine is a kind of existence proof of a limit to the political efficacy of military conquest in the modern era.
If you listen to Hitler's speeches during the dying days of the Third Reich it almost sounds as if he was at war with all of existence. Anything that was not-Germany was the enemy. This cultural narcissism, supported by a completely fabricated archaeological and anthropological fictive history justified a thoroughly unnecessary war of colossal bloodshed and suffering.
In short, the premises don't entail the consequences. It's irrational.

>>16050608
>you're saying that because 2-3 million people were gassed instead of shot or starve that makes this more extraordinary than other contemporary or even more recent genocides where magnitudes more people were exterminated by more traditionnal means?

Yes. Killing on a factory floor in very different from millions starving to death in their homes.

>>16050608
>muh numbers
Assembly style mass killing is horrifying and a near complete rebuke of the human spirit, one naturally recoils from the thought of it. Its easy to see why some consider it the worst tragedy in history, its monstrous.

>>16050631
I'm not talking about the Nazis I'm talking in general, please see my original post here >>16050393

>>16050672
Is this a /pol/ falseflag?

>>16050081
Israel is a Fascist state in their understanding of racial purity and expansion. I don't understand the hate for them, yeah U.S mega wealthy Jews, but that's a liberal problem, blame Lincoln

>>16050692
How is less people dying a larger rebuke to the human spirit? You're literally valuing the lives of one group more than the other. I don't understand how you could justify this without having some kind of supremacist ideology justifying it. What's the exact conversion value? If I kill 1000 people assembly style is that worse than gunning down 10,000 in a field? Worse than gunning down 100,000? 1,000,000? The implications of this line of thinking seem absurd.

>>16050698
Yeah, you're wrong. My point still stands.

>>16050727
The Republican Party is absolutely under the thumb of people who put the interests of that fascist state above the state they live in, though. This keeps a strong non-interventionist block within the party from forming, which is absolutely something a lot of Republicans in America are interested in.

>>16050621
Now to get back to the anon who thinks the Soviets invented the death camps, most of that argument hinges on Leutcher's "research" which would have gotten a failing grade as a middle school science project for not using a neutral control. This is more /sci/ than /lit/ though so unless I hear more crying from conspiracyfags I'll leave this here.

>>16050658
>Liberal

>>16050743
Then answer me here >>16050729 what is the exact conversion of factory genocide to "traditional" genocide where we could say they are equal. Would you rather 10,000,000 million people be genocided through machine gun fire than 10,000 in gas chambers in a camp?

>>16050729
The holocaust is without unprecedent not because Jews are more important than anyone else but because no other genocide was industrialized. Nowhere else in the history of the world were millions killed in murder factories.

>>16050729
>muh numbers
Jesus why are you people so autistic. And where did I ever mention the group of people? Its the methodology of the killing that I find monstrous, can you read?

Holocaust talk is frivolous. Can you guys move on? Why do Nazis deny it? Makes you sound more badass and anti liberal which is the point of National Socialism and Fascism to transcend liberal morality towards a firm understand of ingroup v outgroup

>>16050755
It's not about one death being more or less equal to another the point is the holocaust is different from other genocides, you're arguing it's not because fewer people died even though the manner in which they died is totally unique.

>>16050750
Holy shit it is unironically over for internet nazis

>>16050799
>Why do Nazis deny it?

Neo-Nazis, who think the holocaust should have happened, think it didn't against all proof it did because they prefer to think that Hitler got Germany raped by Russia for nothing. This is why he's their hero.

>>16050809
Internet Nazis are as scientifically illiterate as they are historically illiterate. Their best scientist, Leutcher, has an undergraduate art degree and their best historian, Irving (who never studied history or completed college) now accepts the reality of the gas chambers and can only be called a holocaust denier insofar as he believes it happened but that Himmler didn't tell Hitler what was going on.

>>16050799
>The virgin normalfag: "well due to this building reconstruction by the soviets, the paper detailing oven orders, testimony from silverstein....etc..."
>The chad intellectual: "why didn't they just starve them like everyone in human history who commuted mass genocide has done?"
Ez clap.

>>16050823
...do you think the allies fought germany because of the holomeme

>>16050785
Okay so where do you draw the line? You are obviously not valuing the lives of those killed in an industrial genocide as equal to the lives of those killed in a more "traditional" genocide. I don't understand this line of thinking but I'd like to. My first instinct is to find where the values equal. What's the exchange rate? Is 1 Holocaust worth a "traditional" genocide that's 10x larger? 20x times? 100x times?

>>16050796
Genocide is foundationnally bad because people are killed. Without people dying you don't have genocide, unless you think interracial marriage is white genocide lmao. If it's the methodology alone that makes this more important than would you agree that 1 million people killed in an industrial genocide deserves more attentions than 5 million people killed in a traditional line em up against a wall genocide?

>>16050808
But you're making it about that by valuing less lives as more valuable than more. If nobody died in the Holocaust it would be a relative footnote in history the same way the Boer internments are. The death is what gives it negative value.

>>16050755
>Ukraine
Not a genocide, unless you'd like to describe British grain requisition policies in Bengal as genocidal.
>Turkey
The Armenian Genocide was carried out with neither the same bureaucratic efficiency as the Holocaust nor with the same ideological fervor. The Ottoman government essentially deported Armenians into the desert and let enormous numbers of them die on their way there.
>China
No genocides have taken place in recent Chinese history.
>Colonization of America
This is the only point that has any kind of strength behind it, but it fails on multiple levels.
1. The colonization of the Americas was a haphazard process that included massacres, settlement, intermarriage on a large scale, and cultural assimilation. It lacks the intentionality of the Holocaust.
2. Settlement took place prior to the industrialization of the Americas. In no case did the destruction of the Native Americans take on an industrial character.
3. With the sole exception of the United States, the destruction of the Native Americans did not bear a distinct ideological character similar to that of the Nazi genocides.
4. Even in the case of the United States, "Indian removal" was a haphazard process that was carried out more through continuous punitive operations that resulted in the subjection of Native Americans to the US government and assimilation of and intermarriage with such populations as fell under US sovereignty. The result is a very large "white" population with large amounts of Native American admixture. The specifically eliminatory character of the Nazi genocides is missing.
>Mongol conquests
Those were not genocides. Conquest followed by pillage and destruction is not the same as the deliberate attempt to annihilate entire peoples. Note that Iranians, Arabs, Chinese, Pashtuns, Uzbeks, South Asians, Russians, and every other people conquered by the Mongols still exist.
>Chinese civil wars
Those were not genocides. The Taiping did not rise up in order to exterminate anyone. Even the Boxers were not interested in carrying out a genocide on Chinese territory. Chiang Kai-Shek's encircle and destroy operations were brutal, but not genocidal.
Every single one of your claims falls apart under closer examination.

>>16050856
How did I imply that and what's a meme about it? Do you want to review the primary documentation first or should I return to the scientific evidence?

>>16050871
>You are obviously not valuing the lives of those killed in an industrial genocide as equal to the lives of those killed in a more "traditional" genocide

Why? Literally all I said was that the holocaust is different and without precedent, you said it's the same.

>>16050883
>>Ukraine
>Not a genocide,
>>>/pol/

>>16050897
Yes, Holodomor is not a genocide. Requisitioning enormous amounts of grain and not caring about what happens to the peasants you've taken it from does not qualify as genocide.

>>16050906
yes it does lmao

>>16050753
>Idiot without a counterargument
Typical

>>16050911
No it does not. Neither the Bengal famine nor the Vietnamese and Indonesian famines, which were respectively caused by the requisitioning policies of the British and Japanese Empires, are counted as genocides. Holodomor is no different. We might call it a case of callous indifference bordering on the criminal, but it is not genocide.

>>16049122
>What would you say to reasonably shut down the Nazi ideology?
Kant's three critiques undermine both the category of Untermensh (as it is applied to Jews) and the legality of their extermination.

>>16050920
>starving people to death 'borders on the criminal'
lol. The holodomor actually was genocide unlike the hololol

>>16050892
Genocide is bad because people are killed and the point of commemorating genocides is fundamentally based on the human value lost in them.

>>16050906
>>>/pol/

>>16050854
this but unironically

>>16050927
>>16050928
Again, taking grain and not caring about the people who are left behind is not the same as deliberately starving people to death.

>>16050937
They were deliberately starved to death you communist retard. You're literally worse than nazis.

>>16050937
>bro I just stole all their food, how was I to know they'd starve
yeah that's murder my hebraic friend

>>16050883
>Not a genocide, unless you'd like to describe British grain requisition policies in Bengal as genocidal.

Stalin allowed the holodomor to happen, it was partly by design not just the unintended consequence of communist ineptitude. He thought that as long as collectivization was starving everyone he might as well let it get worse instead of trying to make it better to crush the ethnic Ukrainians and their desire for independence. That's what makes it genocide. It was part of the communist playbook, Mao did it too. People are dying but we shouldn't stop these deaths because we want to completely restructure society anyway.

>>16050906
The Holodomor could be more accurately described as a colossal fuck up. A true genocide as a result of soviet policies, in the sense that the state intentionally sought to destroy a whole group of people, was dekulakization.
>You have one too many goat?
>You go to gulag capitalist oppressor!

>>16050948
No, they were not. The grain was requisitioned in order to meet quotas set by the Soviet government for their industrial projects. They requisitioned the grain and let the peasants die.
>>16050950
That's not what I said. Again, the Indonesian, Bengal, and Vietnamese famines are exactly the same as the Soviet famine. Callous indifference in the face of human suffering is not the same as genocide.

>>16050948
>>16050950

The notion of the “Ukrainian genocide” is rather poorly substantiated and doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, and is generally not accepted by historians of Soviet history, including anti-communist ones such as Robert Conquest and Orlando Figes, among other mainstream Soviet historians such as Sheila Fitzpatrick, Moshe Lewin, Terry Martin, and J. Arch Getty. The Holodomor isn’t even nowhere nearly as recognized as widely as the Holocaust is; not to say that this confirms its falsehood but rather that it indicates its weakness as a claim. While the Holocaust has been found to be a legitimate crime by an international tribunal, only twenty-six countries recognize the Holodomor, and rather, those which do recognize it are ones that have diplomatic and internal reasons for doing so, such as doing securing business with Ukraine or placating a significant Ukrainian diaspora. The Soviet Union is gone, and modern Russia is rather comfortable with talking negatively of it, so the argument that the Holodomor is not recognized because countries don’t want to insult Russia is operating on a rather tenuous basis.

Some other holes in the Holodomor narrative include the fact that korenizatisya within Ukraine continued, as well as the existence of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic as a political entity. There is also the lack of closing down Ukrainian-language press and universities, the lack of demonization of Ukrainians, and the coincidence of the supposed genocide ending right as collectivization was finished, rather than continuing onwards.

>>16050959
it is completely irrelevant whether they were 'callously indifferent' or not, idk why you keep repeating that. They starved them to death, that's murder. If you shoot someone just to take their money that's still murder

>>16050927
>unlike the hololol

Start reading.

Open Access Primary Sources: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/p/open-access-holocaust-sources-and.html

>>16050959
They requisitioned the grain from Ukrainians specifically, knowing that someone would probably end up starving and it would be better to target a separatist ethnic minority.

>>16050953
>Stalin allowed the holodomor to happen, it was partly by design not just the unintended consequence of communist ineptitude
Yes, like I said, the grain was requisitioned without regard for what would happen afterwards. The Bengal, Indonesian, and Vietnamese famines are the same.
>He thought that as long as collectivization was starving everyone he might as well let it get worse instead of trying to make it better to crush the ethnic Ukrainians and their desire for independence
Where is your evidence for this claim?
>>16050956
I'm not sure if the destruction of a social class counts as genocide.

>>16050970
No they did not. If you bothered to look at data for that period, you'd find that there were deaths due to starvation in the Belorussian, Russian, Ukrainian, and Kazakh SSRs.
>>16050966
See
>>16050965

>>16050988
>just listen to what fucking MOSHE LEWIN says
LOL

>>16050970
Yes but that was a calculated decision, genocide connotes enmity. It wasn't that it would "be better to target a specific ethnic minority" it was that it would be better to target people not as close to Moscow and within Russian borders.
Look I'm not engaging in apologetics for this horrid behavior, but it's not historically accurate to say the bolsheviks had it out for Ukrainians. They just subscribed to a heartless form of instrumental rationality that treated masses of people as well, masses. Numbers without meaning. Materialist data points.

>>16051005
The Jewish Bolsheviks despised Christian Ukrainians and had done for centuries

>>16050965
>if we ignore people who accept its veracity so it's false
>we don't teach people about it in public school so it's false
>the allies had no diplomatic or internal reasons to condemn germany
wew couldn't get farther than this

>>16050979
>I'm not sure if the destruction of a social class counts as genocide.
That's splitting hairs. Call it classicide. Either way the Soviet government deliberately shortlisted these people for destruction for absolutely insane reasons, like they had too many cows or they could afford to hire a few workers. The Holodomor was more of a calculation about redistributing finite resources, damned the human cost.

>>16051009
The two most decisive leaders of the Bolsheviks, Lenin and Stalin, weren't Jewish. And don't you think at that time any Jews in power had more important objects of their wrath?

>>16051009
Jewish Bolsheviks like the Georgians Lavrenti Beria and Yosef Stalin? Or like the then party leader in Ukraine, Nikita Khrushchev, who was a born and bred Ukrainian?
>>16051015
All of those are strawmen.

>>16051005
No, it would be better to target an ethnic group with incredibly valuable land that had tried to secede several years earlier. There's a clear line of thought for enmity, what are you even talking about.

>>16051031
>All of those are strawmen.
its not at all. you list of people who support your claim while ignoring those who don't as if that's worthwhile information. you say that it's more widely recognized as if that's not because more people are taught about the holocaust. you say that we should ignore the countries who officially recognize it because they have domestic and international motivations as if the allies who prosecuted nuremberg did not. retard

>>16051035
Then it would just be better to target anyone who lived on valuable ground and who couldn't defend themselves. The soviets were well known for caring little about ethnicity, that's the entire thrust of marxist-leninism. Ukraine had the misfortune, like Poland, of being a ripe target within reach.

>>16051060
I'm not even the guy who made that list. I just happen to know enough about Soviet history to know that those are the names of the most important Anglophone historians of the USSR of the past half century, and that the only "important" person who disagrees with them is Timothy Snyder, who is, in any case, more of an ideological brawler than a scholar. Seriously, look up some of those names and you'll figure it out.

>>16051071
>the most important Anglophone historians of the USSR of the past half century
im sure this is a very unbiased group of people

>>16050979
>Where is your evidence for this claim?

If nothing else he didn't try to fix the problem. That's what makes the British famines genocide too. "People are starving but we'll let them because they aren't important people" is genocide, just not like the holocaust in character. The intent only went as far as "we'll let this happen" but that still makes it deliberate, just not as deliberate as "we'll make this happen".

>>16051009
>le Jewish conspiracy

Lenin and Stalin and Marx were not Jewish.

>>16051076
With the exception of J. Arch Getty, every single one of them is notoriously anti-Soviet.
>>16051080
But those famines are not genocide. And no, that does not make it deliberate. Manslaughter and murder are classified as different crimes for a reason.

>>16051035
And I forgot to mention how double retarded your post is. Russians and Ukrainians are part of the same ethnic and linguistic group, Slavs. Ukrainians are part of the same subgroup of ethnicity as Russians. The entire ethnic enmity angle just doesn't work.

>>16051100
Does splitting hairs between reckless indifference and premeditation really matter here? Are we only discussing genocide as a criminal statute right now?

>>16051130
you know nothing about Russia or Ukraine

>>16049122
Just tell then that they offend Jewish people. That is all you need to do to be completely shut down in the USA: the one group you DARE NOT criticise...

>>16051130
Yeah and Slavs and Germans are both Indo-European ethnically and linguistically so if we pull out far enough there's no ethnic enmity between Europeans at all, is there dumbass?

>>16051145
>>16051153
Not him, but you missed the point. From the Russian perspective, Ukrainians are literally Russians. Any genocide perpetrated against them is a genocide against themselves, and therefore self-defeating.
>>16051132
This isn't splitting hairs. It's about the causes, aims, and ends of the "crime," if we're going to call it that. The whole point of genocide is to eliminate a specific group of people. The famines in question were not intended to accomplish such an aim, and were therefore not genocide.

>>16051093
>Marx was ethnically but not religiously Jewish. His maternal grandfather was a Dutch rabbi, while his paternal line had supplied Trier's rabbis since 1723, a role taken by his grandfather Meier Halevi Marx.

>It is likely that Lenin was unaware of his mother's half-Jewish ancestry, which was only discovered by his sister Anna after his death

>>16051166
also forgetting the fact they were bankrolled by Jewish financiers from london and nyc

>>16051060
As I said,
>The notion of the “Ukrainian genocide” is rather poorly substantiated
Here, look at the wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_genocide_question
Make up your own mind, the fact is that there is a big reason why so many historians don't agree with calling it a genocide.

>>16050854
>>16050935
Do you know how long starving someone takes? Just like everything else, the Germans tried to reach maximum efficiency in genocide.

>>16051187
>look at this wikipedia article
>western academia agrees with me
Where do you think you are you septuple nigger