/lit/ - Literature

>t. Doesn't remember his primal incarnations
Oh am laffin

What will it be like?

How was 30s italy not really fascist?

>>15974030
It has been tried and the entire world got together to stop the dream

So just checking, everybody ITT has already read Eco's essay "Ur-Fascism," right?

>>15974030
Real fascism cannot exist unless you can literally prove you're the messiah. You need to have the ability to change reality itself to a point where it convinces people to disidentify from their lives as they know it

>>15974055
To be fair a lot of it they brought upon themselves. If you don't want to get attacked you should not meddle with the borders.
Was it really impossible to develop a fascist system inside the existing borders? I don't think so.

YOU ARE NOT INVITED BECAUSE YOUR ARE EITHER
A. A NIGGER
B. A NIGGER LOVER
C. SYMPATHIZE WITH A / B

>>15974062
>Real fascism cannot exist unless you can literally prove you're the messiah
Why do you need that?
Wouldn't creating a fake person be enough? Create a perfect digital person through deepfakes and voice alteration. An amalgamation of the ingenuity of a group of people.

>>15974061
No one takes him seriously for a reason.

>>15974079
That at its core would be a lie. And lies always crumble

>>15974071
It was because otherwise they'd get "sanctioned" by everyone else. But continental Europe didn't even care and joined the fascists almost immediately. It was only communists and anglos who opposed it mostly because of economic reasons

>>15974061
No. Summary please.

>>15974046
Duels will be legal and encouraged.

>>15974097
You won't get it because he doesn't actually want to add anything to the discussion besides namedropping a book. They always do that. In all likelihood, he hasn't even read it, let alone understand it enough to contribute to the dicussion.

>>15974120
Do you understand that they were banned for a reason?
Just look at how many great people died in duels
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_in_duels
>Galois
>Pushkin
>Lermontov
>etc

>>15974129
Non-lethal duels would be an option. Perhaps chess-boxing?

>>15974159
Non-lethal duels already exist and are legal lmao. You can challenge anyone to a boxing or fencing match, for example.

>>15974212
But there is no culture of honor that would make them accept.

>>15974097
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
In the section about scholars there's a summary of that Eco believed to be the 14 hallmarks of fascism

>>15974691
lmao what a commie tard

>>15974691
I tried reading Eco's definition many years ago because I found it on that exact Wikipedia page after borrowing the Roger Griffin book from my local library. I couldn't believe anyone takes this seriously. It's not just inaccurate, it's bitterly inaccurate, written by some seething semitophilic bugman whose books I've never considered reading from that point on. Read Roger Griffin or study fascism locally/regionally, and study action over theory. The practice of fascism differs too much between cultures.

Also, no one says "real fascism has ever been tried".

>>15974740
>>15974814
Yeah, that essay is fully shit, I wouldn't bother reading any more of it.
Oswald Mosley is well worth a read, his "100 Questions Asked And Answered" is essentially a manifesto explaining his democratic corporatist system. Quite specific to the UK, but should be interesting no matter where you're from.

>real X has never been tried

That’s what everyone says after the failure has become apparent. It only serves to restart the cycle of stupidity

Nobody ever says this.
Fascist Italy and NSDAP Germany are just the only good examples of textbook fascism (though China is increasingly becoming natsoc). Not that there weren’t true fascist movements elsewhere (Iron Guard, BUF, etc).
Hitler did it better than Mussolini, but this was a matter of competence, not doctrine.
Meme fascists like Franco and Pinochet were really just conservatives.

>>15974087
everyone takes him seriously actually

>>15975064
Pinochet wasn't even a fascist he was basically a liberal. Also, don't shit on my nigga Franco.

>>15974030
Fascism was afterall a giant cope trying to integrate tradition with modernity.

>>15975129
Franco was better for Spain than the anarchists would have been, but he was ultimately a case of Conservatism using the energy of and then betraying Fascism (like B L U M P H), which is why Spain so easily reverted to a neoliberal homo paradise after Franco's death (and most likely why Spain provided little support to the Axis during WW2). Franco, in fact, gave visas to a hundred thousand jews during the war and revoked the centuries-old Alhambra Decree (kicking jews out of Spain). He was also a promoter of free markets and something of a wannabe imperialist.

This being the opposite case of Germany, of course, where the NSDAP took the conservatives and wrung them out like the spineless noodles they were.

>>15974061
Fuck this neoliberal hack

>>15974212
You know how hard that is to set up? Unless you do it underground, and that's a whole other can of worms

>>15974917
>x thing refuting/criticizism fascism bad
>x thing praising and promoting fascism good

lel
gay

>>15974030
>> Real fascism has never been tried.
Yes, it has. Until, of course, leftist radicals fucked it all up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urk45JBZKy8

>>15974061
i dont read

I still to this day have no idea what the appeal of fascism is
Why would anyone want the state dictating their lives, I mean i highly doubt most self proclaimed fascists think they'll be the ones in charge of the govt.

>>15976356
>I still to this day have no idea what the appeal of fascism is
>Why would anyone want the state dictating their lives, I mean i highly doubt most self proclaimed fascists think they'll be the ones in charge of the govt.

>>15974030
Fascism is a buzzword. It's just the italian version of "nazism", which is now used (as though it's a legitimate sociopolitical "concept") to describe anything that's against the globalist propaganda.

>>15976356
Because it is inevitable that you will be ruled by someone or something, anon.
Upon acceptance of this, the question becomes "who or what should rule me?"
>Inb4 I will rule myself
Unless you are literally insane, living fully off-the-grid, or atop of whatever system you live in, this is an impossibility. Individualist society exists under the cultural heel of capitalism.

Anyone knows where i can get English translations of Gentile's Works?

So leftoids are positive real fascism happened but not communism yet?

Definition of fascism : Capitalism in decay.

>>15976707
Thank you for posting the most retarded take with the easiest rebuttal:
Where are all the capitalists supporting fascism?
Why did the capitalist powers ally with the communist powers to destroy the fascist powers?

>>15976580
Yes, that is the bait.

>yes bro it's definitely disenfranchised minority who are responsible for society being shit trust me bro you dont need to think about it any more just kill the people who look different to you bro
facism is so yikes

>>15976739
Thank you for outing yourself as a retard - capitalists are not supporting fascism exactly because it's the final state of the capitalist life-cycle. It's not to their benefit to support it, but it is the unavoidable end of their machinations.

>>15976761
Capitalists do not support explicit fascism, but they are usually OK with a little bit of it, especially when people get disenfranchised (see America right now). Helps to keep the heat off them a bit

>>15974120
Yes. YES. THIS. BASED.

>>15976761
By this definition, communism would be capitalism in decay.
By this definition, ANYTHING that comes after capitalism would be capitalism in decay.
What is the point, then, of making a retarded, meaningless statement like that?
Do you wish to imply fascism is a necessary stage prior to the worker's state?

Try being precise with your language instead of spouting platitudes and pretending to be clever.

>>15976761
So fascism is the real proletarian utopia? Or is communism supposed to magically come after?

>>15976309
Well I've read works against fascism that were good, and I've read works for fascism that were awful, but in this case yes it's that way around
I'm not necessarily saying "be a fascist", just that you can check out that book if you're interested in fascism, or alternatively if you want to criticise it without looking like an uninformed tithead

>>15976356
>Why would anyone want the state dictating their lives

OH NO NO NO HE REALLY THINKS HE IS LIVING AUTHENTICALLY

>>15976356
State dictates your life regardless. Just a matter of with what values.

>tfw fall asleep every night imagining a world in which degenerates are crushed by the mighty

why can't we make it work, bros

>>15975064
I mean wtf is Mussolini doctrine even, the critique that he was nothing but rhetoric is as solid as critique gets.

If we accept OPs preposition, where would 'real fascism' even form? outside of armchair warriors fantasies. Unlike communism, fascism seems rather flexible to me, as it can tie itself to a religion or other idiotic belief.

Most realistically tho, its just gonna spend the rest of existence being a shit strawman thrown by uneducated socialists at their opposition.

>>15974030
It has, though!

>>15974030
/pol/ zoomer threads.

>>15978477
i have come across a fascist lesbian on a certain site some time ago. she's a full on fascist who wants to deport all non-whites and wants every man to look like a chiseled spartan, but she's also a lesbian and doesn't think of herself as a degenerate because... she doesn't partake in degeneracy and doesn't think of her being a lesbian as the sole proof one needs for her to be labeled as degenerate. she wrote that the fascists she encountered never once harassed her over being a lesbian and were more welcoming that liberals/lefties were to her - even though one time she almost deactivated her account because of other fascists that were indeed harassing her - and says that gays need to reassert their own identity and wants to go back to a time where homosexuality had a special and honourable place in societies.

would you or any other "fascist" on here wanna welcome her to your fold or would she get the axe in an hypothetical fascist state? if all gays were like this, could they have a place in your hypothetical fascist society? or absolutely not?

>>15979346
Not ur guy, but don't you think part of fascisms failing to appeal, is its non stop appealing to only power fantasizing men?

projecting degeneracy onto any sexuality is uninformed and stupid when there are degenerated people of all kinds and when there have been periods of homosexuality having been properly respected in society.

>>15979346
In a fascist society we would have developed a non violent cure/prevention for homosexuality so yes people like her would be more than welcomed. The problem with homosexuality is not homosexuality in itself

>>15979167
>Wtf is mussolini doctrine even
He literally wrote a "doctrine of Fascism" which lays out his vision.
https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/hist151/MUSSOLINI.pdf
You're correct that fascism is a flexible doctrine in comparison to capitalism or communism, which both have explicit systems described (but perhaps less flexible than Liberalism, which has had innumerable forms across the centuries). My answer to this would be that fascism is meant to be an embodiment of the people practicing it. Fascism to the Italian (capital F "Fascism") will look different than that of the German ("National Socialism") and even that of the Chinaman (nominal communism which is now just a kind of national socialism). I would even argue that Israel, a country I want to see wiped off the map, qualifies as a "fascist" state.
In general, fascists believe the following:
>The well-being of the people comes from their spirit, not their material wealth (A fascist state would forgo importing cheaper consumer products if it meant preserving the employment of its people, because working might be considered essential to spiritual well-being). Contrast with Capitalism and Communism which are both materialist philosophies concerned primarily with the creation, ownership, and distribution of wealth.
>The state is a spiritual extension of the people, and a tool to be used for their benefit (The state does not exist to merely "protect rights," especially not if those rights are used to trample upon the well being of the people). This is where the moral systems of most fascists arise from--for example, if the tolerance or promotion of homosexuality is viewed as detrimental to the people, there is justification for the state to stamp it out.
>Finally, "The people" are usually an ethnic or racial group, united by whatever characteristics allow them to see one another as an extended family with the state as its overarching patriarch.
You can attach different accessories on this like "Traditionalism" or "Futurism," and Fascism can be imperialist or decolonialist in nature (Mussolini was a blatant imperialist, while Hitler saw himself as reclaiming rightful German land lost after Versailles). Theocratic fascism is possible, but only if the church IS the state, otherwise the nominal religion must be subordinate. A fascist state might employ syndicates as its form of labor and capital organization, or it might have small-scale free markets and state ownership of large enterprises.

My issue with Mussolini is not his doctrine (I do have some complaints) but his evident incompetence. I do believe he was a lot of talk/ceremony and no action. He laughed at Hitler and found him ridiculous (The two, to Hitler's horror, almost went to war over the Annexation of Austria), but Hitler's Germany was clearly more formidable than Mussolini's Italy by then or shortly after. Italy was nowhere near as prepared, industrially, technologically, or militarily, by the time the war started.

>>15979568
I wouldn't even be concerned about making people not homosexual, it's LGBT culture that causes the problems. If gay people were to assimilate and sexuality was considered incidental to one's character, then they would really be completely acceptable. The only real issue in that case would be that they don't contribute to the birth rate, but if they're contributing to the state in some other way then that's hardly a problem.

>>15976739
Yankees supported fascists in South and Central America, British and French policy of appeasement in late 30s, big business donations to the Nazi party before they were in power. I'm not particularly well-read when it comes to history but capitalist support of fascism, in more or less direct ways, definitely has precedent.

>>15974049
That wasn't real fascism!

>>15979818
>My issue with Mussolini is not his doctrine (I do have some complaints) but his evident incompetence. I do believe he was a lot of talk/ceremony and no action. He laughed at Hitler and found him ridiculous (The two, to Hitler's horror, almost went to war over the Annexation of Austria), but Hitler's Germany was clearly more formidable than Mussolini's Italy by then or shortly after. Italy was nowhere near as prepared, industrially, technologically, or militarily, by the time the war started.

Based anon, I'm italian and can confirm everything you said
It's Mussolini's fault that the axis lost the war.
I have to say that Mussolini's solved a lot if Italy's internal problems (too many to name, among those, he almost eradicated the mafia), his problem was his foreign policy

>>15982070
>Yankees supported fascists in South and Central America
Could I have the examples you're thinking of? In many cases these are just neoliberal strongmen. The presence of a dictator is neither sufficient nor necessary for a state to qualify as "fascist."
>Policy of appeasement
This isn't really an example of capitalists supporting fascism. The allied powers appeased Germany because they believed:
-The allied powers were not ready for war.
-The allied powers' populaces would not stomach another war.
-Germany might have had legitimate grievances
-Germany could be directed into a war with the USSR
>Big business donations to the Nazi party.
Again, could I have the examples? I would not be surprised that businesses here and there supported the nazis, but the nazi party was dead broke in its infancy (Hitler's speeches were its first source of real funding). Even Schacht, the only "capitalist" in the Nazi government, was completely ignored despite all of his bitching about free markets and opposition to Hitler's economic policies.

>>15976356
You dont know what fascism is.I recommend you start with origin and doctrines of fascism by Gentile

>>15974055
This & checked.
It was extremely effective, but the jewish influenced world (which unfortunately included the U.S. and Russia) were inevitably going to conspire to crush them. The Axis did overreach, bolstered by their initial successes... But I don't think there was really a way for them to prevail long term, no matter their strategy. The powers of 'international finance' were never going to leave them alone.

heh

anarcho-ecofascism is the purest and most based form of fascism

>>15974030
>Neither absolute capitalism

>>15983494
Also of anarchism.

Fascism always is defeated because good always will triumph over evil.

>>15976580
Depends how you define fascism. Communism as its defined has not happened unless you can point out somewhere where the state, money and classes have all been eliminated.

>>15983528

hi dad

>>15979346
I'd be fine with it. If a gay keeps their sexuality to themselves and recognizes that their lifestyle isn't normal and shouldn't be promoted as such, then it's not a problem. But that's just in your hypothetical; in practice it would likely be a problem, as on average they seem predisposed to having progressive liberal attitudes. Ideally, they would be judged by their attitude/actions and not condemned on the basis of their sexuality (which isn't prevalent or harmful to others/society if kept in the closet).

>>15983454
Bases Ezra

>>15976356
>I don't see why I would want a government that works for the nation and its people
>I mean we now live in a free society were I can enjoy falling salaries and islamization from importing third world retards and the future is only looking brighter, one could say even I am glowing

>>15983528
Precisely the opposite. Because fascism seeks to subordinate the evil excesses of capitalism and liberalism to higher, adaptive (good) values — and because it is actually viable — the evil oligarchs/elites who run the world will not allow it to exist.

>>15983535
>communism
>abolition of the state
You damned idiot. Also, communism will always be in this predicament as it professes to abolish things which can't be abolished... There will always be classes so long as there are ruling authorities, and such authorities are inevitable functions of human society (especially with our current population densities). Classes are also a function of prized skills/capacities which aren't achievable by the average population. Money is also a pragmatic necessity with modern economies and population density.

>>15974129
yeah but think of all the shit people that shouldve been killed in duels

>>15976317
Salazar was not a fascist just like Franco he was a conservative reactionary. I am portuguese btw

>>15974122
Half of this board is ESL and not articulate enough to convey their message in an efficient way. I mainly namedrop on /lit/ because my mastery of the english language is too poor to express abstract concepts without betraying or distorting them.

>>15984336
I am too. I don't know, the only thing that wasn't fascist about him was his isolationism as opposed to imperialism, and even then the Colonial War happened.

>>15983865
So what you are saying is "thats not real communism!"

>>15974030
The Holocaust should have happened

>>15979346
Lesbians don’t exist, either girls that haven’t been dicked down properly or 40+yo ugly chicks with no guys interested

>>15974030
kys

>>15979346
i can save her

>>15974030
https://youtu.be/-J0H5ah1G7A

lots of interesting responses.

>>15979568
>>15985039
>>15985342

she said that she's against conversion therapy. i think she underwent conversion therapy in the past and it did her no favors. she's grounded on her belief that you can't change your sexuality from gay to straight, that those that go through it only come out a shell of who they were before with their mental health destroyed, and those who do claim that they became straight really are just deluding themselves.

she also said she had a boyfriend in the past, whom she thought was a good man, but she just wasn't attracted to him, and that there was nothing she could do about it. he understood why she felt that way and they broke up amicably. she's tried dick before and she said there's no way for her to ever like it. pretty much every "cure" for homosexuality is inherently violent to her.

she has gotten flak for this before. she has had other fascist shitting on her the same way the last two anons who replied to me have - people telling her that they're not sure she's a lesbian and that all she needs is a good dicking -, and she has had others say that she can't advocate for white nationalism because she's only half-white.

she always wonders how compatible fascist ideology can be with homosexuality. she wants countries to have the sovereign rule dictated by their own native people, for them to become self-sufficient, to be free of imperialism and globalism so foreigners will stop raping their women, to look out for their own best interests. she also wants to raise a family together with her girlfriend and for people not to discriminate against them.

she says that the idea of homosexuality has been distorted a lot, and she argues that if you're gay that doesn't necessarily have to mean that you will reject tradition outright, or that you can't be a part of it. she loathes the modern lgbt community, especially trans people. i really think she's a very interesting person.

still, if a fascist state were to happen, she would have to break up with her gf, since she's from eastern europe and her gf is from western europe, which i find very laughable and retarded and goes to show that she's a little stupid, but i've seen her acknowledging that fact joking about it, even though i don't think that'd be a good thing for her, since she seems like she really loves her girlfriend.

>>15986115
continuing from my post:

>>15981835
basically this is what she and i too believe. gay people aren't the problem, the culture surrounding them is, like hookups, promiscuity, believing in overly woke shit, shaming those who want to stay monogamous etc, and many are starting to opt out of the lgbt community for that very reason, because it's starting to feel like it's everything but a community.

she and many others believe that rather than shaming gays into suicide or denial, claiming they're a threat to children and society, that we should instead encourage them to be productive contributors to the community like you would to straight people, which is something that has mostly been achieved in this day and age, which is a good thing.

>>15983624
what progressive/liberal attitude do you mean? shit like drag queen story hour? no self-respecting gay person is in favour of that honestly, so don't worry about that. would you be opposed to seeing gay couples/lesbian couples holding hands in public or maybe even kissing? not having sex in front of everybody, just cute pdas. would you be opposed to them marrying and having/adopting kids like straight people?

>>15979531
veru true and intelligent response this one too.

>>15974129
>some guy named Buttons signed the Declaration of Independence

>>15982319
wooah! wanna point out that this isn't >>15979167 !

I also wanna throw the fact that Mussolini might have been bad, but it wasn't his fault the axis, rightfully so, lost. They were never properly cooperating and didn't manage to ever draw lines in the sand, offensively or defensively. Unlike liberty and communism, fascist societies aren't necessarily friend, the axis only kept making enemies and eventually sort of turned on each other.

I think the only reason Germany and Japan didn't end up fighting each other, was proximity. Which points to how weak fascism is, despite non stop projecting strength

>>15976761
By that definition the USSR was capitalism in decay

The issue is just that fascism has become “anything I don’t like” at this point

>>15986129
>would you be opposed to seeing gay couples/lesbian couples holding hands in public or maybe even kissing?
No, although I think pda behaviour is generally in poor taste (depending upon the particular environment and acts in question).

>would you be opposed to them marrying and having/adopting kids like straight people?
Yes. That falls into normalizing homosexuality. I think homosexuals should accept that they are a deviant minority (I don't mean that in a cruel way), and not expect to be 'celebrated' or accorded equivalent status to heterosexual couples. If they want to have an unofficial ceremony and call themselves married, that's totally fine.... But there should be no official institution of gay marriage (they shouldn't qualify for tax relief and incentives intended for normal family units, and common-law can cover them for any legal necessities).

>>15984936
No, I'm saying that the idealized version of communism can't ever be real. It's a farce. 'Actual' communism has been tried repeatedly, with typically dismal results.

>>15974055
That's because Hitler was a Kraut autist.
Mussolini just wanted muh Latin Union of fascism through soft power.

>>15974030
The sad thing is that real fascism HAS been tried, and it works. Italians and Germans were lifted out of poverty and educated at the fastest rate possible. Germany actually held the highest percentage of university educated people in the western world.

Fascism works...... UP UNTIL they stupidly picked a fight with the rest of the capitalist and socialist world to unite and destroy their nations.

Had Italy and Germany just kept to themselves with their model of governance, the world would have been a much better, whiter place.

>>15979346
She's right. I may believe that every man and woman should have a family and flourish but for her if she avoids degeneracy she might be doing her best (which is what she seems to expect in others).

>>15987795
Yeah, that's typically the thing. Communism HAS been tried, to the detriment of its OWN people. Fascism HAS been tried, to the BENEFIT of its own people....... up until they start fucking with the Anglo World Order

>>15974030
brain surfing wojak is my favorite one

>>15974120
>>15974129
This is how dueling should be regulated
>need to wait 24 hours before duel begins, and either party has right to opt-out within that time
>only a 22 gauge pistol is allowed to be used
>insurance has to cover medical bills.

>>15974095
hitler declared war on stalin for no reason and the latter was so shocked he stared out of a window in silence for minutes
declared war on america, similarly pointlessly
moustached methhead idiot ruined it all

>>15974061
>>15974087
>>15976275
Leftist here, what's wrong with Ecco's framing?

>>15974129
>Believing in a transcendental ideal of honor to the point where you sacrifice your life for it
Sounds pretty based to me

>>15974129
They died honorably.

>>15987859
Alright, you don't know shit about the war

>>15983723
>>15983340
>>15978212
>>15978182
>>15976455
If fascism is so great then how come it always involves violent repression, abolition of rights and totalitarian governments?

History has shown that authoritarian systems, whether left wing or right wing, quickly crumble

Only ones that have survived are those who have managed to brainwash their people(NK) or covered it with a mantle of a greater purpose, Such as the liberation of the working class (USSR and other communist states) or a race struggle (Germany, and Italy). Or worse, gave the illusion of democracy.

An authoritarian state cannot last because as soon as you use your boot to tread too hard on something not meant to be treaded. People are gonna gather in front of the parliament building, and either force you to resign or someone will smash your head in.

After all Is there a difference between being stepped on while hearing that your race is inferior/superior, and being stepped on while hearing stories about the liberation of the working class?

>>15974055
/thread

>>15974030
Fascism isn’t a coherent set of beliefs my man.

>>15988486
People don't actually get stepped on.

>>15988482
Precisely because it's so great, bugman.

>>15974061
read robert paxton's the anatomy of fascism instead.

>>15988534
What makes you think that you wouldn't get crushed under the iron heel of a totalitarian fascist government?That you use based words like bugman while your browse an imageboard?

>>15988482
>Violent repression, abolition of rights, and totalitarian governmentss
If you're a queer jewish abortionist maybe. In which case i fully support the abolition of your "rights" (whatever the fuck "rights" mean in an age of technocapital domination)

>>15988547
I'm not that anon, but I wouldn't get crushed by the iron heel of a totalitarian fascist government because I fully support the iron heel of a totalitarian fascist government. The critique that "what if the system you supported wasn't working in your favor" is one that can be made of any system, not just fascism.