/lit/ - Literature

As if any of those faggots on that picture are actually happy

>>15956295
>Pleasure is inherently good, right? Pain is inherently bad.
They're intertwined, and one without the other nullifies the significance of whichever you're experiencing. So, no, you're wrong.

>>15956295
Go overdose on heroin. It's probably the maximum amount of happiness one can experience.

>>15956332
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_machine

Define “pleasure”

>>15956295
That is how weak people are made, anon. You might be a smart hedonist, but inherently weak.

>>15956295

at some point whatever pleasure you have will end, which will bring you pain. at some point whatever pain you have will end, which will bring you pleasure. living your life in pursuit of temporary ideals is idiotic

and actual hedonism as a philosophy has nothing to do with the soul rotting pleasures of today, it was far more about living modestly

Because some people have to suffer so that others may feel good. Think of any musician whose work brings you happiness. They had to slave away alone in the bedroom practicing their craft for years if not decades. Just so they can bring you and many others an enjoyable piece of music.

The things you find pleasurable will inevitably one day cease to be pleasurable. To attain pleasure again you will have to go to a source capable of more pleasure than whatever you were experiencing, and so on and so forth until you die of a heroin overdose because nothing else really gave you that kick anymore.

Plus there's going to be shitty things in life, short term at least, that will mean good things in the long term; a concept a hedonist might not consider. It shares a spot with epicureanism as the most immature and short sighted of philosophies.

>>15956394
living in da moment is comfy tho anon

>>15956295
You are a slave to others and yourself.

Look up Conor Murphy. That guy alone is enough of a refutation.

>>15956295
>Can anybody actually refute hedonism?
Ascetics like to think they can. Unfortunately for them, asceticism is just their form of hedonism.

>>15956295
They are lower emotions. Happiness and suffering are the real issue.

>>15956295
>Can anybody actually refute hedonism?
Go somewhere that has people who never stopped partying and it refutes itself. Watching large amounts of 50 year olds party like they are 25 is one of the most depressing things you will ever see.

>>15956461
What are higher emotions? Is bliss a higher version of pleasure?

There are no other people but Epicureans, crude and fine, Christ was the finest; that's the only difference I can draw between people. Everyone acts according to his nature, that is, he does what is good for him.

>>15956295

black versus white thinking bias false dichotomy tram didn't emotions hunger equilibrium mnd over matter do your own homework know thyself

>>15956543
Huh. How was it good for Jesus himself to get sacrificed?

>>15956483
It's no less depressing when they're young in my opinion.

"Now what, monks, is the allure of forms? Suppose there were a maiden of the noble caste, the brahman caste, or the householder class, fifteen or sixteen years old, neither too tall nor too short, neither too thin nor too plump, neither too dark nor too pale. Is her beauty & charm at that time at its height?"

"Yes, lord."

"Whatever pleasure & joy arise in dependence on that beauty & charm: That is the allure of forms."

"And what is the drawback of forms? There is the case where one might see that very same woman at a later time, when she's eighty, ninety, one hundred years old: aged, roof-rafter crooked, bent-over, supported by a cane, palsied, miserable, broken-toothed, gray-haired, scanty-haired, bald, wrinkled, her body all blotchy. What do you think: Has her earlier beauty & charm vanished, and the drawback appeared?"

"Yes, lord."

"This, monks, is the drawback of forms.

"Again, one might see that very same woman sick, in pain, & seriously ill, lying soiled with her own urine & excrement, lifted up by others, laid down by others. What do you think: Has her earlier beauty & charm vanished, and the drawback appeared?"

"Yes, lord."

"This too, monks, is the drawback of forms.

"Again, one might see that very same woman as a corpse cast away in a charnel ground — one day, two days, three days dead, bloated, livid, & oozing. What do you think: Has her earlier beauty & charm vanished, and the drawback appeared?"

"Yes, lord."

"This too, monks, is the drawback of forms.

"Again, one might see that very same woman as a corpse cast away in a charnel ground picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions — here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a breast bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder. What do you think: Has her earlier beauty & charm vanished, and the drawback appeared?"

"Yes, lord."

"This too, monks, is the drawback of forms.

"And what, monks, is the escape from forms? The subduing of desire-passion for forms, the abandoning of desire-passion for forms: That is the escape from form.

Depends on what you mean by hedonism. if you mean the pursuit of instant gratification, a la alcohol, sex, etc., then sure. That's not a good path to a satisfying and good life

If you pursue hard work, responsibility, humility, etc., then you are not pursuing instant gratification, though arguably you are still pursuing these things because you know enough to know that these things truly make you feel good, (even if they perhaps cause more short-term "pain" than sex and drugs).

I think the distinction is why you're pursuing a thing. If you are knowledgeable enough to know that pursuing things that are truly "good" (virtue in a Platonic sense - i.e. justice, temperance, fortitude, prudence), then the pleasure/self-satisfaction you get from pursuing these things is yet another indication that you are pursuing the correct things. But in this case the pleasure is simply a side-effect of pursuing things that are good. It's not that you want the pleasure you get from acting virtuously, but that you feel too bad by not acting virtuously.

Anyone who thinks instant gratification is the highest good is an ignorant NPC

>>15956601
"That any brahmans or contemplatives who do not discern, as it actually is, the allure of forms as allure, the drawback of forms as drawback, the escape from forms as escape, would themselves comprehend form or would rouse another with the truth so that, in line with what he has practiced, he would comprehend form: That is impossible. But that any brahmans or contemplatives who discern, as it actually is, the allure of forms as allure, the drawback of forms as drawback, the escape from forms as escape, would themselves comprehend form or would rouse another with the truth so that, in line with what he has practiced, he would comprehend form: That is possible.

>>15956571
Why did Jesus let himself be crucified? To fulfill the prophecy? And why did he want to fulfill the prophecy? To redeem mankind? And again: why? What is the root cause for all his actions?

>>15956310
Well yah...it's a staged photo.

>>15956295
It kind of leads you towards utilitarianism doesn't it?

>>15956707
That's uhh what I'm asking you bro.

>>15956720

I think everyone is utilitarian with regard to their own life. What matters is what people think is best for them, which usually isn't the best. People pursue instant gratification because they think cheap and easy pleasure is as best as it gets. They are trying to maximize their utility, though from a rather unenlightened perspective.

>>15956728
Let me put it this way: As a carpenter he was happy; as a prophet even happier. So he decided to go for the second career. He then walked around and felt great: I am the Son of God, how nice that is! I will save mankind. When he was beaten, he thought: Ouch! That hurts. And then he remembered: But I am the Son of God. And all was well again. In the end he got nailed to the cross. The physical pain became enormous. And his thoughts and his faith could not help him out of the mess. Then he called out: God! Why have you forsaken me. Which means as much as: God! It's no fun being a prophet anymore! Well, anyways, he always wanted to do and always did what makes him happy. In the end he got fucked. That's life. Everyone seeks happiness and some end up on the cross.

>>15956374
blah blah I justify my own prison

>>15956707
to free himself

>>15956483
do they have to suffer? why do you want people to suffer? you want them to suffer with you?

>>15956461
who measures hight of emotion? you?

>>15956356
most weak people are regular people who age and deny pleasure. look at christians, Buddhist, pathetic, vegetables.

>>15956333
nope. samadhi with a highly spiritual girl would be the apex. she gets high by any music, she can dance and fucks as she dances.

>>15956295

>>15957401
A good life is procured by enjoying fully what is desired and by controlling those desires one cannot fulfill.

>>15956295

OP I would recommend actually reading Epicures so that you gain an understanding of what he actually means when he is talking about hedonism.

>>15957252
This but on heroin.

>>15957192

?

>>15957479
Can't argue with that.

>I like being a slave to the pleasures of the flesh
>if it feels good it must be good right?

Hurr durr

>>15957479
best advice in thread

>>15956310
they might have some insecurities, but they are happier than you.

>>15957530
There really isn't any meaningful reality outside of your own experiences. You maybe be a slave objectively, but the objective really has no bearing on your subjective perception, which again, might as well be reality because it's the only thing you will ever truly experience. So therefore, pleasure is inherently good because it is beneficial in your subjective mind, regardless of its objective flaws.

>>15957529
Different desires overwrite each other, anon. For most people, the desire to stay healthy overwrites the desire to eat copious amounts of deadly food. She, on the other hand, is obviously a human pig. So dying of overeating is not unnatural for her. The happiness of a pig is eating, not reading books and excercising. I hope she has the stomach to kill herself once eating becomes impossible.

>>15957252
nope.heroin

>>15957213
Its amazing you equate not being a complete degenerate with suffering. Unfortunate you've abused your psyche to the point of receiving no pleasure from success and accomplishment.

>>15956295
There are many types of pleasures that beget many types of pain, and the notion that short term indulgences are generally good places you at the absolute mercy of those who would offer you leisure.

>>15956295
Nozick's experience machine refutes hedonism though.

>>15957239
What a shit bait.

>>15956295
>Pleasure is inherently good, right? Pain is inherently bad.
>people actually believe this
Pursuit of pleasure is a lazy way to attempt the achievement of happiness that seldom works. Happiness in my experience has arisen most from rationality of understanding and of action, often controlling pleasurable desires that do not further that rationality. You don’t need to totally deny yourself pleasure like some ascetic monk, but to pursue pleasure with no other rational goal is slavery of the intellect.
>>15957493
>what men want
>daughter
>>15956310
I’m sure most of the people in OP’s image are Happy, why wouldn’t they be? They have friends and they’re in a nice place?

>>15956454
did the guy return to his old self after his breakdown? It seems like he deleted his spiritual videos

>>15957239
Knights of faith are weak?

>>15958133
The knight of faith is one kind of person with his own strenghts and weaknesses; the ultra hedonist ist another. Therefore the knights of fate are weak in the eyes of an endless number of people, and just as strong. Depends who you ask, bro.

>>15956487
>>15957227
Well, as opposed to purely physical pleasure and pain, happiness and misery would be spiritual (if you will) emotions.

It's like a difference between satisfaction and pleasure form eating, or depression and pain. I don't think most people would have problem with seeing this distinction - there are people that seek pure pleasure and are unhappy, and people that don't have much of pleasure and even feel a lot of pain and discomfort and are happy.

If think happiness can be described as satisfaction. But in contrast to pleasure of hedonism, it can't be seeked directly. To gain it you must act so you won't live with guilt or feeling that you've wasted your life. So that's why correct values are important.

>>15956295
Happiness>pleasure.
Furthermore, things are bad because they make you less happy not because they cause pain.

>>15956295
>implying you can separate pleasure from pain

Read Nietzsche, last man.

>>15956332
Ah, so if you ate something tasty you should then stab your finger to enhance the pleasure?

>>15956382
listen 2 jazz

>>15958017
It doesn't.

>>15957401
There is a memetic word "cope" which fully describes the pic.

>>15956295
Pleasure is just a brief pause between pain and sadness

>>15958302
Someone had a questionable sexual experience.

If you will define pleasure as everything you strive for, then yes, but it's too wide a definition. If you describe it as strictly immediate physical pleasure, then no.

>>15958110
He just fasted for 40 days while streaming it the whole time. That isn't what i would call a return to former self.

>>15956295
Pleasure is the defeat of pain.
If you feel hunger you are in pain. You eat something and the hunger goes away, this is pleasure. There is no pleasure that doesn't stem from the erasure of pain. If someone wishes to be in constant pleasure it is to wish to be in a constant state of getting the first bite after a hunger or getting lie down after an exhaustion or getting your first sip of water after thirst. So infinite hunger thirst and exhaustion that is eternally being combatted.
Therefore I say unto you do not seek pleasure. More moral is the flagellant who exposes himself to pain, ridding himself of pleasure. He strikes his back with a whip and he does not sleep nor does he eat and he does not drink either all to please God and suffer for his sins in the dream so he can prosper in the Life.
If you are not like the flagellant, then be apathetic. Let everything happen to you. Beauty and horror. Be prepared to fight long winters and to frolic in golden fields of wheat in the summer until you die. Reap the day, but remember your death.

>>15958233
Pleasure in its purest form begets happiness

>>15958309
It's not about sex,people desire a state of happiness but can only be happy for a short amount of time that's mean that every joy in life is temporary and ultimately unfulfilling

>>15958084
>I’m sure most of the people in OP’s image are Happy, why wouldn’t they be? They have friends and they’re in a nice place?
It's easier to be happy when you are a NPC.

>>15958389
*constant happiness

>>15958391
It's better to be npc than unit.

>>15958276
You're an undisciplined child.

Alcohol, the greatest narcotic

>>15958407
>It's better to be npc than unit.

What about an ABSOLUTE UNIT?

>>15957676
The point is you can overindulge in literally any desire, anon, including "staying healthy". The key factor in your existential well-being is the degree to which you are capable of exercising discipline over them. Hedonism is the categorical antithesis to this sentiment, and the number one fast track to perfect misery.

>>15957757
you don't like degenerates? if you are not happy you are degenerate.

>>15958077
really?

>>15958792
Where does the idea come from that hedonism excludes discipline? Hedonism is the prioritization of pleasure. What stands in the way of pleasure must be avoided. Of course, that requires discipline. The aim of discipline is pleasure.

>>15956295
Imagine the poverty of the person who considers pic related as anywhere near peak pleasures

>LETS GO TO THEBPLACE SO WE CAN GET THE VALIDATION WE CRAVE VIA CREEPY GLANCES FROM STRANGERS WHO ARE HERE FOR THE SAME THING

>>15956295
Hedonism is inherently exploitative, you can't enjoy something without working on it first or others working on it.
Pleasure is like happiness, it can occur for some small period but is not in the slightest the nature of life, enjoy chasing after the wind I guess.

>>15956295
Our brain is retarded and can get burned out of pleasure. We need some genetic engineering to change that.

>>15958133
can your knights tell truth? or they need alcohol to reveal what is in their mind? you are spiritually strong if there's no difference between you sober and drunk, you feel the same and tell the same. to be polite is to be hypocrite. children don't lie. be like children.

>>15958977
brain is your enemy. and "burn brain" is a meme. burn ass.

>>15956295
Plato did this already. Read The Republic

>>15958792
The only reason we feel bad about indulging is societal pressures. I only feel bad after masturbating because I remember that I don’t have a girlfriend, I only feel bad after scrolling the internet all day because society tells me I can do something better with my life

>>15956295
everything in that photo is fake.

>>15956354
youre so autistic it hurts

>>15956354
me feel good yes

>>15956354
Define "define"

>>15956295
Plato

>>15956483
Growing old and dying is depressing in general, partying or not.

>>15956295
Short term pleasure often leads to long term pain. Increasing the average amount of pleasure one experiences is of course good, but having bursts of pleasure that end up ruining relationships and lives is not smart in the final analysis.

>>15956333
From what I've read about heroin usage, it feels like half-orgasm, but extended for minutes. Sounds pleasurable, but not top-tier pleasurable and certainly not worth dying or getting in jail.

>>15956295
Pleasure and pain get incredibly boring.
We should all be pursuing the sublime.

>>15957252
Does she like anal?

>>15958309
>you just need to coom a bit more to feel enough pleasure to hide away the existential dread
Are you even able to survive without your genitalia being stimulated?

>>15956332
Refuted by Plato. Pleasure is not relative, it's an absolute.

>>15962575
That's just wrong.

>>15956295
can you support hedonism? or refute its antithesis?

>what /lit/ pretends hedonism is: doing drugs, drinking and having sex all day
>what hedonism really is: trying to maximize pleasure out into the long run ei; getting exercise, raising a family etc

>>15956295
pain is necessary for pleasure

deciding how much pain measures well for pleasure receives makes hedonism less productive to think about. don't think polarly in terms of pleasure, if that's all you want then shove an ice pick up your nose and get on a thorazine drip in front of cartoon shows till u die

>what /lit/ pretends hedonism is: trying to maximize pleasure out into the long run ei; getting exercise, raising a family etc
>what hedonism really is: sucking out kinder bueno filling before crunching on the wafer

>>15958245
You should know what it's like to not eat something tasty.

>>15958182
>>15956356
How do values/core beliefs/morals/ethics etc give you mental strength if you have clinical depression or other mental illnesses? I get 1000x more benefit from exercise than I do reading the kjv or the pali canon or any sort of spiritual text

>>15956394
>The things you find pleasurable will inevitably one day cease to be pleasurable.
Like not being able to exercise or lift because of injuries? How do you cope then?

>>15956394
>a concept a hedonist might not consider

Why would they not? All criticisms of hedonism boil down to "if you pursue pleasure in a shortsighted way, it may lead to bad things you didn't want", which is solved by not doing that and instead doing things that fulfill you long term, which is naturally what any intelligent, disciplined hedonist will. The point is still that you want to gain pleasure and avoid unneeded misery, and there ultimately isn't any point to anything aside from this and helping others achieve this.

>>15961977
yes of course, it is out of question.

>>15956354
human body is a biorobot, biofactory, a vessel for soul, a car. it needs resources to operate. pain is a feeling that goes over threshold of comfort, a signal to mind that it had to do something about it, you satisfy pain and body feels pleasure, a signal to mind that it did the right thing.

if you suffer, feel pain, but do not know why, you are already insane, zombie, NPC, society destroyed you with morality. you feel pain but tell to others you are OK.

It's impossible to systematise or universalise hedonism because pleasure can come at the expense of others' pleasure. So you either have to deny universalism in which case you have no moral system at all, or permit exploitation in which you have no morality at all. In either case you do not have a 'moral system'.

>>15956295
>>15956339
This. OP if you would reject the opportunity to go into the pleasure machine, or if you find a reality like pic related disconcerting and undesirable, you yourself do not believe that pleasure is the ultimate and only good.

>>15962989
The only reason not to get into the pleasure machine is the hope to get even more pleasure under natural circumstances; or, conversely, the fear of missing the "real pleasure" while in the machine. "I want to roam around in the green with the animals like my ancestors" and "I don't want to go into the pleasure machine, because it doesn't bring me real pleasure, but artificial pleasure. I want to work for my pleasure myself, even if it entails suffering" and "Suffering is part of the human experience" are the same sentences as "If I do x, I will have the most pleasure. I feel that the pleasure machine is not x. Therefore it won't bring me the greatest pleasure. Therefore I will not enter it".

Whoever enters the pleasure machine is not gonna come out again (see heroin: the rotting off of the limbs is no hindrance to the drug user. Imagine a drug stronger than heroin and with no withdrawal: that's the pleasure machine, the non-plus-ultra of pleasure). In the first milisecond, every objection you had against the pleasure machine will be washed away by the drugs. The aversion we felt before has its origin in the composition of our brain. The drugs change this composition. What are thoughts against the composition of the brain? One is the cause, the other only the effect.

>>15956295
good and bad are subjective, pleasure and pain are material, separate them in your mind or suffer

>>15963073
I understand what you're saying, but I think you misunderstand. The whole point of the pleasure machine is that you experience the maximum amount of pleasure possible, and so it's nonsensical to claim you do not enter the pleasure machine in order to obtain a more pleasurable life in the real world. We can both agree that life outside is far more deficient in pleasure and happiness than would life in the pleasure machine would be.
>"I want to roam around in the green with the animals like my ancestors" and "I don't want to go into the pleasure machine, because it doesn't bring me real pleasure, but artificial pleasure. I want to work for my pleasure myself, even if it entails suffering" and "Suffering is part of the human experience" are the same sentences as "If I do x, I will have the most pleasure. I feel that the pleasure machine is not x. Therefore it won't bring me the greatest pleasure. Therefore I will not enter it".
You're already presupposing that pleasure is the greatest good and then you see that someone wanting to "roam around in the green" etc and you assume that they must want to do it for material pleasure; I disagree. I think perhaps the problem here is that you use pleasure as a synonym for good, and they are not the same thing. When someone wants to live a natural life, it is because they give greater value to immaterial ideals such as freedom, dignity, reality, autonomy, truth, virtue, knowledge than to material pleasure. You might argue that they value these ideals more simply because they bring a greater form of pleasure, but that is impossible. All these things necessitate pain and suffering, whilst the pleasure machine does not. Why do Christians flagellate themselves, why do Muslims stand for hours and hours in the midday sun at Mecca, why did Buddhists protest by lighting themselves on fire? Certainly not for pleasure. Even non-religious people deliberately endure pain and suffering for the improvement and proper development of their character. I know you'll just say that they only did these things for a different, greater form of pleasure but I don't think they did. Actions that conform to ideals are not done in the pursuit of pleasure, but in the pursuit of meaning, and the pleasure that is derived from such meaning is not greater than the pleasure derived from the pleasure machine, and therefore pleasure cannot be the ultimate good.

>>15961574
Naw being old and dying can be graceful

>>15956295
>Pleasure is inherently good, right? Pain is inherently bad.
WHY? PROVE THIS. MAKE A GODDAMN ARGUMENT YOU FUCKING RETARD. NOBODY NEEDS TO "REFUTE" YOUR RETARDED POSITION, YOU NEED TO PROVE IT.

>>15963515
>it's nonsensical to claim you do not enter the pleasure machine in order to obtain a more pleasurable life in the real world.
I'd disagree. It is not my claim that is nonsensical, but the feelings and fears of the people. They associate pleasure with certain qualities that are in conflict with the pleasure machine. In their eyes, using the pleasure machine leads to a loss of pleasure –– which, of course, contradicts the definition of the pleasure machine. People don't think straight. I'm no different. I can't find any reasons not to get into the pleasure machine (provided that no one harms me in my then helpless position). But my gut feeling tells me something completely different: The machine is your misfortune. You are made for the wide world. This is all just a dreamed up nothing.
Then I remember this story:
>Once Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly, a fluttering butterfly. What fun he had, doing as he pleased! He did not know he was Zhou. Suddenly he woke up and found himself to be Zhou. He did not know whether Zhou had dreamed he was a butterfly or a butterfly had dreamed he was Zhou.
And immediately the machine is dear to me again.

>Why do Christians flagellate themselves, why do Muslims stand for hours and hours in the midday sun at Mecca, why did Buddhists protest by lighting themselves on fire? Certainly not for pleasure.
To be honest, I do think they do it for pleasure. Pleasure is a complicated thing. For example, pleasure is also the feeling of a rule being obeyed, a weakness being overcome, a just punishment, choosing the lesser of two evils, and so on. Pleasure has many faces. I believe voluntary actions and pleasure are one and the same, they are not distinct from one another, where the one is, there is the other. We are always faced with two decisions, and we choose the one that brings us more pleasure. Everything big and beautiful and ugly and evil springs from pleasure. Everyone lives for pleasure. The saints and the robbers differ only in the means by which they acquire pleasure.

>>15956295
Hedonism is irrefutable indeed, the only problem is that one has to sacrifice in order to achieve it.

>>15956483
That's literally just a symptom of your programming.

>>15963647
>my gut feeling tells me something completely different: The machine is your misfortune. You are made for the wide world.
The explanation for this is, like I said previously, that you value certain ideals more than you value infinite pleasure. For the rejection of the pleasure machine to be nonsensical, as you claim, you have to assume a materialist, nihilistic worldview, i.e. life is absurd, there is no soul and when you die you cease to exist.
>The saints and the robbers differ only in the means by which they acquire pleasure.
But they also differ in the kind of pleasure they seek. The robber seeks material wealth to facilitate the satisfaction of his worldly desires. The saint seeks a life of devotion to God, in order to get into heaven admittedly, but if he were really a hedonist he would do the bare minimum to acquire entry and then spend his life pursuing more immediate pleasures. The life of a monk or saint cannot be called hedonistic, unless you warp the term (as you are doing) to encompass every single action anyone takes. The argument you're effectively making is an argument against altruism, that there is no such thing as a selfless act and that every action one voluntarily does is done so in order to pursue good for oneself, and this good for oneself you broadly and unjustly name pleasure. A good action and a pleasurable action are not one and the same thing. You'll say that a good action is good because it leads to pleasure, but I guess it depends on what you mean by pleasure - the release of dopamine in the brain? Is pleasure only felt by the body? Does pleasure have a purely chemical basis? Or is the good something more abstract - the flourishing, cultivation and ultimate development of human character and will, for example? Such good cannot be defined simply by the presence and ratio of chemicals in the brain, and therefore cannot be defined as pleasure in the materialist sense.

>>15964083
As you know by now, I am but a lowly materialist. And I do use the term pleasure rather vaguely. I guess to my mind, the process of "choosing" an action is regulated by a system of chemical rewards. And try as we might, we have to do that which rewards us in the strongest way possible. It could be that for some people, due to the specific circuits in their brain, the action that grants them the greatest chemical reward is, at the same time, the action that causes them great pain and even death, say, for example, crucifixion. In the case of Jesus, the chemical reward for choosing crucifixion was far greater than the chemical reward for choosing the renunciation of God in exchange for his life.

>The saints and the robbers differ in the kind of pleasure they seek.
I disagree. There is only the one system of chemical reward. Every kind of pleasure falls under its regime. The saint and the robber are completely the same, if we focus on the underlying reward structure that motivates their actions. One could say, if one wanted to, that the saint is a very lucky fellow, because his chemical rewards are earned by altruistic actions, instead of murdering, pillaging, raping, which is the poor robber's lot.

>The argument you're effectively making is an argument against altruism, that there is no such thing as a selfless act and that every action one voluntarily does is done so in order to pursue good for oneself
I'm neither for nor against altruism. I'd say that altruism is a natural behaviour for most people. For these people, altruistic behaviour is pleasurable. Therefore they act that way. And that is all there is to it. If it weren't for the sweet chemicals, nobody would ever help anyone, except by accident.

>Is the good something more abstract - the flourishing, cultivation and ultimate development of human character and will?
I dont know how you use the word "good", if you use it in a moral sense or what not. I'd say these things––flourishing, cultivation and so on––, are valued highly by our chemical reward system, and therefore we do them. Our thoughts and ideas and dreams are but the afterglow of an chemical explosion. Nothing is important to you, except that which is made important by your chemicals.

- hedonism of the humble: drinking, having sex
- hedonism of the privileged : drinking, having sex, reading lucretius, enjoying botticelli's paintings and lutoslawski's symphony n. 4.

Bomp

>>15964308
>The process of "choosing" an action is regulated by a system of chemical rewards
As a person with extensive work experience in biological systems, I will tell you for a fact that this is a gross simplification of neurobiology and in many ways horrifically inaccurate. It is the pop-science version of an incredibly complex system. Yes, dopamine and serotonin are involved in the brain's experience of emotions, but they do not explain the ability of animals to conceive of and evaluate the possible rewards of an action. The system of continuous subjective experiences, which we call consciousness, is not at all explained by science or neurobiology, and it is a continuing unsolved problem. In fact I'd argue that "We're all just machines and dopamine makes us tick" is an EXTREMELY minority view within the field.

>>15962989
People only reject this out of a gut reaction

>>15965617
not the same anon, but just because the system is not as simple as a couple of specific chemical making us happy, doesn't mean the system isn't materialist in nature and ultimately only motivated by pleasure or happiness of the subject. There is not strict hierarchy of pleasure for there is multiple types, it is very hard if not impossible to directly compare which feels better between the sense of pride and awe one might have as a martyr for a cause the subject thinks of as greater than himself, and the rush of taking heroine

>>15956295
>Pleasure is inherently good, right? Pain is inherently bad
You need to quote a work of literature, retard.

>>15956608
Well said.
>>15956295
Read the Republic and Phaedo.

I rejected hedonism, and ended up more miserable. So based on my experience, hedonism is the only way to archive happiness.

>>15956295
Yeah DFW did this in Big Red Son, basically excessive hedonism is tedious and numbing.

>>15966431
You're a weak man. Pain and suffering is necessary for true happiness.

>>15963073
>is the hope to get even more pleasure under natural circumstances

'natural circumstances' is pleasure predicated on the existence of pain in the same way manure is contributive to the perfume of a rose

>>15958084
>I’m sure most of the people in OP’s image are Happy, why wouldn’t they be? They have friends and they’re in a nice place?

The Absolute State of Hedonists. Dont worry buddy, when youre an adult it will make more sense

>>15957515
Don't engage retards who can only converse in throwaway smarmy cliches. There isn't a mind behind those words, just a fat sack of humanity.

>>15959422
No you feel bad because you know you're pissing your shitty life away alone in some room somewhere. You're going to honestly say you get any satisfaction out of jerking off and reading inane trash on your phone all day? If so you're an idiot of unfathomable proportions and you don't have a soul.

>>15962687
> muh clinical depression

Oh no, not just depression but CLINICAL depression??!? You should totally use that as an excuse to be a whiny loser for the rest of your life! Be sure to constantly let everyone know you have CLINICAL depression so they can avoid you and your joy sucking presence at all costs.

Did you take your magical serotonin pills today?

>>15963720
Lol no. As a middle aged guy who knows lots of people who still try to 'party' and act like they're 20 I can definitely say that they are probably the most pathetic losers I've ever met and none of them are even approaching anything that could be called happiness. Just fat blobs ramming shit into their faces to avoid facing the horrific wasteland that is the last 20 years of their wasted lives.

>>15956295

What kind of pleasure? Long term, or short term?

Pleasure is not inherently good or bad, it's not inherently anything. You may think of it like this; if the pleasure is at the expense of something else the context is different as to whether it is good or bad.

>>15965910
insect?

when i first took a bbc in my ass it hurt so much
my ass wouldnt stop bleeding
but i had to brace the pain even though i didnt want to get rammed so hard
because after a few sessions of rough bbc my ass got used to the cock
and then it started to feel good :')

>>15966620
Yeah no the problem is hedonists look down upon simple pleasures.

>>15956419
Go cyceling bruv