/lit/ - Literature

>>15944209
as someone that shits on *nglish all the time, i support this idea 100%
the *nglish language needs to be murdered, but perhaps we may spare the *nglish themselves, as long as they change their *nglish ways

>>15944209
Why?

>>15944281
A certain level of language purity must be maintained, enforced through institutional powers, word coining procedures be standardized and people must be taught how to coin words from the young age for the language to evolve without unhealthy reliance on other cultures.

>>15944209
nah, Nietzsche is right, we need to overcome Germanic languages because they stink and adopt more Romance-like languages with tempo. you need to be able to sing in our language. much better in itailan/spanish than english/german

>>15944209
As a resident of Dublin I support this endeavour. Best of luck.

>>15944358
Linguistic purity already exists in English. It's just not the linguistic purity that you want.

>>15944209

>>15944358
>certain
>level
>language
>purity
>maintained
>enforced
>institutional
>prodecures
>language
>evolve
>reliance
>cultures

>>15945551
Try this for the OP

>>15944209
Surprisingly based

>>15945601
Nothing, besides "separate" and "original"

>>15944209
OP you ever read pic related? Written in a weird form of Old English made up by the author, to 'tell the story of 1066 without Norman influence' IIRC. Bit hard to understand at first as it's not proper OE but you pick it up fast. Good novel either way.

>>15944209
firsty post is a faggot

>>15944209
>>15944209
Where can I read more about this, OP? It sounds incredibly based. I think that an awareness of the influence of French and Latin on English and a willingness to use older Saxonisms that have fallen out of use can only strengthen one's writing.

>>15946212
I want to read this. Is there a pdf somewhere?

>>15944209
i think Anglish is neat.

MOOP DI DOO DIDDA PO MO GIB DAT TUM MUHFUGGEN BIX NOOD COF BIN HO MUHFUGGA

Imagining how much of an inferiority complex you need to have to think this is a good idea.

>>15946312
Dunno, goggle it. He reads a bit like Robert McFarlane, only it's fiction. I'm into Anglo-Saxon stuff anyway and I loved it. I hear the sequel is a bag of shit though.

>>15946212
thanks nigga, sounds interesting

>>15944209
I love anglo-saxon romanticism as much as the next man, but what you suggesting is conlang rubbish; language changes can't be forced in minute detail, they can change over time due to political policy, but you can't design a language and expect people to use it; languages are evolutionary.

>>15946299
https://anglish.fandom.com/wiki/English_Wordbook

Virgin Anglish vs Chad Niggerish

>>15946379
>but you can't design a language and expect people to use it
That's basically what japanese did during meiji and it worked in the long run. This isn't anything new. Classical sanskrit was constructed 2500 years ago by ancient linguists.

>>15946394
>That's basically what japanese did during meiji and it worked in the long run.
No they didn't; Japanese was originally slapping Chinese characters onto Japanese words, then it was a half baked attempt by drunken monks to develop their own script that they ended up only half using. The language at the start of the Meiji era was a Frankensteined clusterfuck, and the Meiji administration merely formalised the education of the language as it had evolved, even then pretty much only by making a list of 'acceptable' kanji, but the point is they didn't try to force any changes to the way people used the language.

>>15944209
>20 and 33 hundredths of our overall wordstock (though our everyday speech is still mostly Thedish).
The majority of the foreign word count are words such as hypersonic, diabolic, gyroscope and such.
Not words such as 'we', 'our', 'house', 'window' or 'woods'.
The contamination of the English language is not so bad as it first seems, although it is pretty bad.

Advanced words are mostly loan words in most modern languages, and that is natural unless proper steps are taken by the language standardization agencies.
Let's take the word of computer, clearly it is a loan word.
What is computer called in German and the nordic Germanic languages?

Danish: Computer
German: Computer
Norwegian: Datamaskin (lit. data machine)
Swedish: Dator

Clearly they are all using latin loan words for this modern machine.
Icelanding is very different though, in Icelandic it's 'Tölvu'.
It was coined in 1965 by a Icelandic doctor, it's a combination of 'tala' - 'to speak' and 'völva', a female seer.

Are you proposing English should follow the route of Icelandic?
This would without a doubt further fragment the Germanic languages.

>>15946394
The thing, though, is that Standard Japanese was based on the extant speech of the bureaucratic class in Tokyo. There were already people who spoke the language that became Modern Standard Japanese, and they forced their speech upon the rest of the country.
Nobody speaks Anglish. Nobody has ever spoken Anglish. And in all likelihood, nobody will ever speak Anglish.

>>15946429
I disagree with the poster you're responding to, but your characterization of the Japanese linguistic situation is even worse. There was no regulation of kanji until after the end of the war, the government forced people to speak a form of Japanese that was completely alien to them, and to this day is still completely alien to millions of people outside of Tokyo, gradually restricted the use of Classical Japanese until the abolition of the last textbooks written in it in 1927, and gradually eliminated the use of Sinicisms in the written language. The entire process was coercive and involved ripping out massive sections of the language and replacing them with barbarisms from English, French, German, and Russian.

>>15946429
>Meiji administration merely formalised the education of the language as it had evolved, even then pretty much only by making a list of 'acceptable' kanji, but the point is they didn't try to force any changes to the way people used the language.
Man, you're assuming pre-meiji japan to be like modern society with modern educational/media institutions. Pre-meiji Japan had shitton of dialects and only the Japanese spoken by a certain elite class and intelligentsia was filled to the brim with Chinese loanwords. Meiji language reforms put focus on sino-japanese vocabulary and relegated japanese vocabulary to lower status. They coined shitton of sino-japanese words and they made shitton of sino-japanese words popular through modern educational/media institutions. How the language evolves within modern societies isn't actually natural

>>15946473
This isn't unique either, the same thing happened in Turkey when Atatürk not only formalized the Turkish language but also adopted the latin Alphabet.

France, starting around the time of Napoleon pretty much forced people to speak a specific version of French and standardized it.
There is a reason why almost no one speaks Occitan in southern France or Brittonic Gaelic in Brittany.

In Austria they are taught Standard German in School, and their spelling is standard German but they use words not common in Standard German and speak in a way that's difficult for most Germans to even hear what they are saying, and with that the spelling isn't as intuitive for Austrians as for Germans.

>>15946498
Yeah. Another example is pure Tamil movement in pajeetland which was basically a fight between promoting a heavily sanskritized register and empowering a relatively pure register(used by common people) of the same language.

>>15946473
I'm >>15946448 >>15946463
If you can read Japanese take a look at 今野真二's 日本語の近代・はずされた漢語. He documents the process by which the government gradually limited the language while eliminating Chinese elements.

>>15946473
>>15946498
Japanese basically ended up corrupting their own language?? Lmao

>>15946516
>eliminating Chinese elements.
Ok, I'll look into it. But sino-japanese part of japanese still rules the roost even in modern Japanese so I don't understand what you mean by "eliminated Chinese elements".

>>15946379
what about hebrew? i personally dont thinj that anglish could be practically implimented in out current paradigm of low nationalism and high globalism. But i would even say, in the 1800’s when language standardization was in vogue (an overall good thing imo.) it could be possible if the brit government cared much about purely germanic spelling (which by and large, they didnt)

>>15944209
>English
Fuck off
There is no such thing, "English" was a gibberish bastard tongue spoken by generation upon generation of mongrel rape babies long before the Normans
If you think the Poles are the butt-boys of Europe, you have no grasp of English history, there's a reason they got a stiff upper lip, fuck pigs at boarding school and go on and on with their w-we wuz kangs shit

>>15946559
English is such a retarded language even burgers can learn it

>>15946565
It depends. I actually find language with poor morphology(implies syntactically complex) to be pain in the ass to handle.

>>15946521
Yes. Mori Arinori, the guy who founded the Japanese education system as it largely exists until today, once wrote a letter to an American scholar asking if it would be prudent to replace the Japanese language with English. The scholar, thankfully, said no. Shiga Naoya, a prominent literary figure, wrote an essay in 1948 or so arguing that Japanese should be replaced with French, and in about the year 2000, a small movement emerged calling for English being made one of Japan's official languages. The Japanese have a complicated relationship with their language, and while good men have been fighting to keep things on the right track for a long time, they've largely failed.

>>15946533
Yeah, English is a global language now and purifying it now means the entire world should participate in the process. pure English gaining institutional power in modern globohomo world is basically a pipe dream.

>>15946532
>>15946532
>But sino-japanese part of japanese still rules the roost even in modern Japanese
If you really believe that, you've probably not read anything written before 1945 besides literature. Here are some texts that I happen to have at hand that show what I mean.
1. An excerpt from one of the many notes Tojo Hideki wrote while in prison and preparing to stand trial. Note that this is literally how he talked during the trial, too.
一五)貴方ノ今迄ノ陳述ニ依レバ、日本ノ戦争ニ突入セル原因ハ、日米交渉決裂其ノモノデモナク、又大東亜政策デモナク、直接原因ハ連合側ノ経済的、軍事的脅威ニ依ル日本ノ自存自衛ノタメデアルトセラレマシタ。然ラバ何故戦争開始ノ初期ニ於テ其ノ危険一応去タ時、例ヘバ昭和十七年中頃戦争ヲ中止スル方策ヲ講ジナカツタノデスカ。 (答)戦争ハ独り相撲デハアリマセン。例ヘ日本トシテハ其レガ都合良シトスルモ敵側ガ其レヲ受ケ入ルヽモノトハ判断ヲシテ居リマセンデシタ。殊ニ彼我共ニ単独不講和条約ニ依リ約束セラレアル以上世界情勢ハ其ノ様ナ日本ノミニ都合良キ提案ヲ受ケ入ルヽ気運ニアルトハ見テ居リマセンデシタ。又原因ハ何レニセヨ一旦戦争ヲ開始セラレタ以上戦ニ勝ツコト、其ノ帝国ノ有ユル政策ヲ戦争ノ情勢ヲ顧慮シツヽ国際法ノ許ス範囲ニ於テ大胆ニ進ムベキデアルト考ヘテ居リマシタ。"
2. An excerpt from the declaration of war on the US and the UK. You can read the rest here: https://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/米國及英國ニ對スル宣戰ノ詔書
天佑ヲ保有シ萬世一系ノ皇祚ヲ踐メル大日本帝國天皇ハ昭ニ忠誠勇武ナル汝有衆ニ示ス

朕茲ニ米國及英國ニ對シテ戰ヲ宣ス朕カ陸海將兵ハ全力ヲ奮テ交戰ニ從事シ朕カ百僚有司ハ勵精職務ヲ奉行シ朕カ衆庶ハ各々其ノ本分ヲ盡シ億兆一心國家ノ總力ヲ擧ケテ征戰ノ目的ヲ逹成スルニ遺算ナカラムコトヲ期セヨ
3. An excerpt from a recent work of academic history:
二一世紀を迎え、現代社会はますます混迷を深め、個人の関心や価値観も多様化している。このような時代に日本史は、どのようにすれば、その学問的使命を果たせるのだろうか。また、日本史の教育・研究をめぐっても、読書習慣や知識量の減退がいっそう顕著になりつつある。そのため、初学者はもちろん、少し専門的に勉強した人でさえ、「日本史は何をどのように研究するのか」「日本史で何ができるのか」といった戸惑いが見られる。また日本史を専門的に研究しようとする者にあっても、研究の細分化が進み、専門とする分野以外の研究状況が把握しづらくなっている。

>>15946602
>while good men have been fighting to keep things on the right track for a long time, they've largely failed
When it comes to meiji era, I only know about that chemistry book translation(iirc it's called monowari no hashigo) into yamato kotoba which was a serious attempt into understanding the word coining potential of 和語. Pure Japanese had good support during edo period tho.

>>15946619
I think I didn't make myself clear and you misunderstood me. What I mean is 漢語 still enjoys the institutional power over 和語. If 国立国語研究所 faggots wanted to coin neologisms for English words then they would coin them in 漢語. No efforts were taken by Japan to understand and codify word coining procedures of 和語. Official/technical vocabulary is basically only 漢語. This effectively means 和語's status isn't still recovered.

>>15946619
This might require explanation, but basically the number, variety, and uses of Chinese words differs dramatically between the first two texts and the last two.
1. Almost all nouns are Chinese words, and most of the verbs are as well. The only noticeable uses of terms now considered appropriate in the spoken language are 受け入れる, 都合が良い, 許す, 戦いに勝つこと, and a few others. Where it is possible to express an action through the use of a noun phrase, e.g. 日米交渉決裂, Tojo does so.
2. Almost every word in this is in Chinese. The only ones that aren't are the necessary grammatical particles, 踏める, 示す, 汝(なんじ), 茲(ここ), 振るうて,尽くし, 戦い, and 事, which can theoretically be dispensed with at the expense of elegance.
3. Almost all verbs are Japanese, and some nouns that would have been written in Chinese in a prior age, e.g. 戸惑い would have been written as 眩惑 by Fukuzawa, are written using Japanese locutions.
Basically, if you think that Japanese now is full of Chinese words, then you're going to have serious difficulty reading anything written before the war. Japanese hardly use Chinese words now. Verbs and adjectives in particular are generally written using Japanese, rather than Chinese words.

>>15946701
There is no such thing as pure Japanese. Not a single Japanese text can be found in which there is no Chinese influence. Any attempt to divorce the Japanese language from its Chinese roots would stunt it and make it incredibly poor and weak.
>>15946701
>What I mean is 漢語 still enjoys the institutional power over 和語.
It does not. They're getting rid of those words as quickly as they can.
>If 国立国語研究所 faggots wanted to coin neologisms for English words then they would coin them in 漢語.
But they're generally not coining neologisms anymore. They are basically letting people run wild and use whatever disgusting Anglophone barbarisms they'd like. They're accomplishing the same mission, that is the expulsion of Chinese elements from the language, by gradually restricting kanji usage and tacitly encouraging the use of English.
>Official/technical vocabulary is basically only 漢語.
That applies to government documents, but not to books. I dare you to open up a journal written today and find even one article that doesn't use barbarisms like ニーズ.
>This effectively means 和語's status isn't still recovered.
There is no status for 和語 to "recover" because it has been subordinated to Chinese since day one. The word for Chinese characters was 真名 once upon a time, which was contrasted with 仮名. There is literally no way to eliminate Chinese influence without completely destroying the language and turning it into even more of a mess than it is.

>>15946759
>Not a single Japanese text can be found in which there is no Chinese influence.
I didn't say otherwise but influence is on the spectrum.

>なことば、あとことば、かずことば、さまことば、しわざことば、働く詞、添え詞 、添い詞、嘆き詞 、有り形詞、繋ぎ詞、助け詞 、補い詞
For example, these were used by certain edo japanese linguistics to denote parts of speech. But since meiji these 和語 disappeared and you know what we use now.
>They're accomplishing the same mission, that is the expulsion of Chinese elements from the language, by gradually restricting kanji usage and tacitly encouraging the use of English.
I often see people hating カタカナ語 and proposing 漢語 as the alternative on Twitter. This basically means 漢語 is still below 和語 in terms of status.

>There is literally no way to eliminate Chinese influence without completely destroying the language
That's because of what meiji state did which is barely undone.

>>15946867
*漢語 is still above 和語

>>15946867
*linguists

>>15946759
>They are basically letting people run wild and use whatever disgusting Anglophone barbarisms they'd like. They're accomplishing the same mission, that is the expulsion of Chinese elements from the language, by gradually restricting kanji usage and tacitly encouraging the use of English.
Lol, schizo.

>>15946867
>For example, these were used by certain edo japanese linguistics to denote parts of speech. But since meiji these 和語 disappeared and you know what we use now.
I looked up some of these words, and they were used during the Meiji period. The fact that they were eliminated does not at all negate the main point that Chinese words have gradually been phased out.
>I often see people hating カタカナ語 and proposing 漢語 as the alternative on Twitter. This basically means 漢語 is still below 和語 in terms of status.
That's not a matter of status, dude. People immediately resort to Chinese characters because 1. They're incredibly flexible and powerful; and 2. That is how Japanese have largely coined words for more than a thousand years now. It seems you're more interested in 国学 and the kind of people who insist on giving every single Chinese word a Japanese reading, but I strongly suggest that you take a look at Meiji-era authors like Fukuzawa Yukichi. Fukuzawa despised Chinese characters and used relatively few of them for a man of his time, but even he could not get away without using them. I haven't been able to read anyone else as closely as I've read Fukuzawa - I've read 西洋事情, 文明論之概略, and a number of his shorter essays - but the language of the Taisho and Showa periods is much, much less Sinified than what was used then.
>That's because of what meiji state did which is barely undone.
This is completely wrong. I've already mentioned that Chinese characters were once called 真名. Are you unaware of the fact that an enormous amount of Japanese intellectual production was done in Classical Chinese? Even authors who wrote in Classical Japanese would insert phrases in Classical Chinese, and 候文 was similarly a mixture of the two languages. The Japanese language was already full of Chinese words before the Meiji era. The Meiji state decreased the number of such words in the language.

>>15946759
>Japanese hardly use Chinese words now
>jintai volume 1
>語彙の選択が適度に卑怯で、多彩な修辞がさんざめき、表現の倒置は効果的に認識を揺さぶり、冷徹に写実したかと思えば、擬人化した花鳥風月にあらゆる叙情を演じさせ、センテンスの切れ目に浮かぶ静寂が饒舌に伝えるのも束の間、木訥さをもって畳みかける祝辞の輪唱は気付けば韻文学の余情をたたえ……それらは壇上に立つ卒業生の双眼が必要以上に潤むところで区切りよく軽やかに収斂していくのです。
This shit is from a Japanese light novel nigga

>>15946957
Unless you think that Maruya Saiichi, Fukuda Tsuneari and Ono Susumu are all "schizo," I suggest that you rethink that statement.

>>15946981
Have you read anything other than this pretentious and autistic twaddle in your life? Do you honestly think that this failed attempt at sounding intelligent and "archaic" is at all representative of the current state of the Japanese language?

>>15944209
anglish is cringe.
between 50-70% of all French and Latin words were borrowed by Chaucer. the greatest English poet did that.hahahah

>inb4 someone says scots is just anglish
it isn't. don't know why people say that.

>>15947012
ok, how about japanese wikipedia articles
https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%9B%B8%E5%AF%BE%E6%80%A7%E7%90%86%E8%AB%96

>>15947132
Yes, it applies equally here. I suggest you take a look at my posts here -> >>15946619 >>15946716
and then try reading something other than really, REALLY bad light novels and Wikipedia articles.

It's a cool side project thing but there is literally no reason to "purify" English.

>thread about anglish and anglo-saxon history
>turns into autism about japs

>>15947238
Aelfred, get the seaxa

>>15947238
no surprise considering how much anglos get shat on on this website

>>15944358
>Frog confirmed
I can smell the garlic from here.
LOL@ your shitty language and culture

>>15946382
Nice start, interesting stuff, but I'm not sure about the presence of yank terms like "greenback" for banknote. Don't want to be swapping out one form of imperialist language treading on our toes for another, right?

>>15947238
You deserve each other

>>15946565
yeah. still difficult for esl shitposters to grasp, though.

>>15944209
Terrible, shitty idea

>>15947238
no more island brothers war.