/lit/ - Literature

>>15905280
This assumes that the world can cope with neverending neoliberalism.
Spoiler alert: It can't.

>>15905280
Yeah the only thing we were wrong about is that it was a good thing. We are fucked lads

>>15905280
Unprecedented consolidation only signals an unprecedented impending collapse.

>>15905280
"Centrist" positions have been the only acceptable opinions for a good while now, read anything from the late 19th or early 20th century and be amazed that this stupid-ass culture war has been going for over a century. Art continues to evolve, subcultures flourish everywhere but the legit ones spurn media attention and keep the wagons circled.

>>15905291
How? And what do you mean by "collapse"? That's childish. There can only be change.

What change/improvement might there be to the liberal democracy?

Fukuyama's central contention was that there is no system that can replace the liberal democracy and be better/more effective/better at satisfying both the citizens and the upper classes.

The liberal democracy is essentially Brave New World. The lower classes have an illusion of control and self-satisfaction through mindless consumerism, the upper classes have no fear of a revolution and feed off the lower classes' naivete. As far as the consciousness of both goes - it's a win-win situation.

There is no stimulus for evolution. When there is no natural stimulus, evolution simply does not occur. It's a really basic scientific principle

>>15905280
Which books of his would you recommend?

>>15905321
Im talking about The End of History, which is widely denounced as wrong. Undeservedly so, because his main point there was 100% right

>>15905280
>>15905322
>Thinking neoliberalism will last another 30 years at MOST
Lol.

>>15905290
>There will come a day, when all the lies will collapse under their own weight, and truth will again triumph.
I'm a socialist, but this quote always made me feel good. There is always another day

>>15905366
There is nothing to replace it just as there's nothing to replace democracy as a whole

>>15905410
*ahem*

>>15905417
Teenager hands typed this post.

>>15905417
You're just proving my point though.

>>15905322
I honestly wonder if you're dumb enough to believe all this.

>>15905280
Neoliberalism isn't the endgame. All the technocrats are creaming themselves over the successes of Dengism in China.

>>15905280
Wisdom: "Fukuyama is Retarded"

>>15905322
Dominoes all fall down. Every civilization in history has fallen. You must be incredibly naive to think the 21st century is a new paradigm. Neoliberalism will inevitably end one way or another. And, either coinciding with its fall or coming after, globalism will fall too.

China isn't becoming a western liberal democracy. So there's proof it's not universal

>>15905522
Not an argument. You don’t even have an example of a mode of governance that could replace the liberal democracy
>>15905535
>successes of Dengism in China
Lol what, dengism is dead. Xi killed it.
>>15905615
>Every civilization in history has fallen
No civilization has “fallen,” just transformed. The Roman civilization didn’t fall, it persisted for centuries after the Roman Empire’s breakdown and still continues to influence almost everything. Same goes for other civilizations.

So I don’t know what you’re talking about. Be more precise, stop communicating in platitudes

>>15905619
The Chinese culture (as well as other East Asian cultures) has never been democratic, they’re inherently collectivistic and highly hierarchical due to their socio-religious order that’s been around for millennia.

However you have to notice one simple relation.

Does the West become more similar to China, or does China become more similar to the West?

;)

>>15905280
Governments used to be universally feudal and similar in structure, just because some pattern is consistent across human cultures doesn't mean it can't change. Liberal democracy is a parasite on capital that will fade away when the can kicking runs out of road.

>>15905280
Correct.
There is no way to fight against a modern security state. It's impossible. There is nothing you can do to fight the Five Eyes at this point, the power disparity is beyond any human being's comprehension. Every single possible movement against neoliberalism can be effortlessly subverted by their decades of psychological manipulation experience, total control over all social infrastructure, and failing that, ability to blackmail and control every single individual in the west by studying their dragnet surveillance profile. And even if things somehow did become violent, modern military crowd control cannot be defeated by any civilian weapon. They have cannons that can melt the top layer of skin off an armored crowd, for example.
Neoliberalism will eventually collapse due to climate change and resource shortages, but it won't be replaced by the dialectic powers moving us forward towards communism or fascism... it'll be pure negation of civilization, a slow descent from technocratic feudalism to regular feudalism to tribalism as resources become more unstable.

>>15905718
>Neoliberalism will eventually collapse due to climate change and resource shortages

Dude, oil is already receding into history, coal won't last another 100 years. There will be no climate crisis. In fact, the "climate crisis" is part of the psychological manipulation experience. China, the last major power outside of complete neoliberal democracy, is the biggest polluter. Maybe we need to pressure them to change their energy policy, and why not include some democratic reforms with it? Eh? I don't see how you can be perseptive enough to see the total power of the neoliberal system, but then think climate concern is not a part of that system.

>>15905767
I don't think climate change is a psyop, but pop climate figures like Thunberg probably exist to rechannel the energy people have towards existential angst towards market friendly things. Neoliberalism is inherently incapable of proper long term planning due to the necessity of constant market growth, they just hope they can keep the consumption train going while they wait for Tesla 2.0 to show and magically fix everything.

>>15905718
>Neoliberalism will eventually collapse due to climate change and resource shortages

Wrong. Feudalism collapsed because fiefs and manor lords were supplanted by wealthy burghers.

Capitalism will only collapse when the function a capitalist has in the economy no longer is necessary, e.g when it's possible to allocate capital efficiently without them as a class.

In 50 years a literal computer can do it, and we won't need them anymore.

>>15905813
The problem with this line of thinking is that it 1) assumes that technological growth will not stagnate and we will hit all the milestones needed to negate neoliberalism and also save the species and 2) the elites are generous enough to share their luxury communism with the rest post-scarcity instead of just killing everyone else

>>15905280
>gets categorized as alt-right
>"NOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST CATEGORIZE ME LIKE THAT I'M SPECIAL"
fuck ideologues

>>15905843
Well I never said it would ever happen in practice, but I laid out what economic mechanism actually had to be in place for capitalism to collapse.

In practice, capitalists will do everything in their power to keep the system going, upto and including just giving people free money so they can continue consuming and I don't even doubt their willingness to turn the entire world of energy production green, as long as they stay at the top and always reap 80% of the wealth generation.

>>15905654
>No civilization has “fallen,” just transformed. The Roman civilization didn’t fall, it persisted for centuries after the Roman Empire’s breakdown and still continues to influence almost everything. Same goes for other civilizations.
>stop communicating in platitudes

Whether you consider neoliberal industrial civilization to be a perpetuation of the Roman Empire or not is irrelevant, my statement of everything falling down remains true, only the lifespan of the civilization in question is altered. In any case, if that's what you thought, you should tell Fukuyama that the "End of History" was the advent of the Roman Empire, or rather, the advent of the preceding empires that influenced it, if you insist on pulling the rope farther, rather than the end of history being "Western liberal democracy." It will all be negated in the end. And when that happens, no human will remember what happened in these days, just as no human now remembers what happened before the Flood. Whether this comes about by a global catastrophe or some other manner is a matter of speculation. But it will come one way or the other. I will continue to speak in "platitudes" because in the end of the day, man carries only about aphorisms. Forgetting about this fact is one of the many sins of this iteration of civilization for which punishment is inevitable.

>>15905709
>Liberal democracy is a parasite on capital that will fade away when the can kicking runs out of road.
What alternative do you propose?

There is no alternative.

>>15905868
Industries can be disrupted without capitalism being disrupted. Tesla is now more valuable than any car company in Detroit. Elon Must is now richer than Warren Buffet. Capitalism was unfazed.

>>15905671
this. Western people criticizing the lack of liberal democracy in China is the most biased eurocentric white saviour complex. As if there was some natural dialectic that all civilizations lead to liberal democracy because it happened in Europe. But apparently forcing your systems of thought down another civilization's throat is totally different from that one time we did it with the Americas. Blocking western internet in China is necessary but probably not even enough.

>>15905322
>Fukuyama's central contention was that there is no system that can replace the liberal democracy and be better/more effective/better at satisfying both the citizens and the upper classes.
Does it seem to you that liberal democracy is very popular right now? Far-right parties and ideas are gaining strength across the entirety of the West. At least 25% of the French population believes in the Great Replacement theory. On the other side, illiberal positions are the norm, e.g. it is completely normal for young liberals to state that positions and statements that offend them should be censored. Liberal democracy is dying.
>The liberal democracy is essentially Brave New World. The lower classes have an illusion of control and self-satisfaction through mindless consumerism, the upper classes have no fear of a revolution and feed off the lower classes' naivete. As far as the consciousness of both goes - it's a win-win situation.
This is completely retarded. Again - do people seem satisfied to you? Does it seem to you that people feel they have control over their own lives?
>There is no stimulus for evolution. When there is no natural stimulus, evolution simply does not occur. It's a really basic scientific principle
Human societies do not operate by evolution. Revolutions and coups are not the hand of evolution operating through man.
>>15905671
>The Chinese culture (as well as other East Asian cultures) has never been democratic, they’re inherently collectivistic and highly hierarchical due to their socio-religious order that’s been around for millennia.
I don't think you actually know anything about these places. Try attacking democracy in public in Japan and see how far you get.
>Does the West become more similar to China, or does China become more similar to the West?
The former, considering the way things are going in Europe. Things haven't gotten bad yet, but they definitely will. Either America or France will be the first to go.
Sage for retarded thread.

>>15905938
Why do you even want to change it? We are getting environmental reforms constantly, from banning nuclear power in the 80s, to fixing the ozone in the 90s, to subsidizing electric cars in the 2000s. Militarization of the police? There is currently a mass movement to reform the police sweeping the whole country. Weed is legal all over the place. If the will of the people really demands something, they will get it. The changes are just slow, so it's not destabilizing.

>>15905280
Smug liberal (((centrism))) is the One True Ideology. Inshallah.

>>15905975
>Again - do people seem satisfied to you? Does it seem to you that people feel they have control over their own lives?

Yes. Not everyone is as miserable as a bunch of spergs on a forum for rejects from social media.

>>15905987
You live in a bubble. The events of the past month and a half should've been enough to wake you up, but apparently you're too stupid to even look out your window.

>>15905976
Yeah, but those are just (broadly) social reforms, not systemic changes.

Fukuyama was talking about overarching ideologies. Systems.

>>15905671
Which is it?

>>15905976
Who actually asked for any of that? How is it possible to believe that public opinion is reflected in policy in Anno Domini 2020? Walter Lippmann refuted this crap almost a century ago.

>>15906015
I'm looking out my window right now. The immigrant run business across the street is back open for business, and has a few customers waiting outside in accordance with social distancing. Not sure what you were expecting me to see? Some middle class white anarchists protesting the police union? Went to one of those last month, the mayor agreed with everything.

>>15905975
>Liberal democracy is a parasite on capital that will fade away when the can kicking runs out of road.
It’s as strong as ever. Some illiberal dogs in the west might bark (as a form of reaction to the omnipresent social order), but the only real illiberal change that has occurred has occurred only in countries without a strong democratic foundation in the first place, eg. post-communist countries in Eastern Europe like Poland or Hungary, banana republics like Bolivia or countries that were never democratic like China or Russia

>>15905975
Also there is no democracy in Japan you idiot
>The former, considering the way things are going in Europe.
Oh really? I wonder how many Chinese songs or movies we Europeans or Americans enjoy nowadays.

Zero.

Now let’s wonder how many Western songs or movies the Chinese enjoy ;)

>>15906056
Who asked for it? Millions of protestors wanted nuclear power banned. Ironic since it's one of the most efficient low carbon energy sources. But even if people didn't ask for it, capitalism made those environmental reforms, apparently whether anyone asked or not, so this idea that capitalism will destroy the environment is no more than sick fantasy.

>>15906057
You are retarded.
>>15906065
That's not my post.
>>15906079
>Also there is no democracy in Japan you idiot
You don't know anything about this place. Do you have any idea how hostile people here are to anti-democratic thought? Have you ever tried reading a book about Japan? The Japanese take free speech more seriously than the average Westerner at this point.
>Now let’s wonder how many Western songs or movies the Chinese enjoy ;)
That isn't even related to the point I made. The fact that you believe this is of any importance shows how immensely retarded you are.

>>15906120
>The Japanese take free speech more seriously than the average Westerner at this point.
Can I criticize or spread fake news about the ruling party in Japan? It’s hard to call Japan a democracy when there’s just one party entirely dominating the political scene, with other parties reduced to either minions of the governing party or dwarf-opposition

>That isn't even related to the point I made.
Your point wasn’t related to my point. What I was talking about was soft power, which has always been the most effective and most important form of power/influence in history

>>15906079
Many movies, video games, and songs are bankrolled by China and have Chinese officials calling shots in order to make sure they get market access.

>>15905288
Jreg pls

>>15906159
Yeah China might regulate some things so that there’s no direct critique of the regime there, but that’s just a defensively reactive behavior

The Western culture is an offensively creative one.

>>15906140
>Can I criticize or spread fake news about the ruling party in Japan?
Yes, you can do whatever you want. The LDP is constantly attacked in the press, specially by the Asahi Shinbun. Take a walk literally anywhere, and you'll see flyers by the Communist Party, random local groups, and even random postings on people's doors attacking Abe and the government. You have literally no idea how easy it is to attack the government here.
>It’s hard to call Japan a democracy when there’s just one party entirely dominating the political scene
That's completely wrong though. The LDP can barely muster electoral majorities at this point, and has repeatedly been forced to make concessions both to mass action - see the ANPO Crisis of 1960, and basically all of Kishi Nobusuke's tenure in office - and to other parties. Environmental and other protections were introduced at the instigation of the Socialist Party, and the LDP has been struggling to put together any constitutional revision plan because of the Komeito's pacifism and the opposition of an entrenched social elite.
>with other parties reduced to either minions of the governing party or dwarf-opposition
This is wrong.
>What I was talking about was soft power, which has always been the most effective and most important form of power/influence in history
Here's what you said:
"Does the West become more similar to China, or does China become more similar to the West?"
And here's what I said:
"The former, considering the way things are going in Europe."
God damn are you retarded. Fuck off back to wherever you came from, please.

>>15905280
it´s hilarious that he still speaks at big neo-con events,
his name is pretty much tainted cause of his own arrogance and basically a synonym for people who cant conceive that the current zeitgeist aint static,

if he would have any shame or decency he would at least put out some note on why he was wrong

>>15906256
Jesus Christ you’re the retarded one here. Japan is not a democracy just as Hungary is not a democracy. It’s what’s called “hybrid regime” or more accurately nowadays the “one-party dominant system.” Here’s a list of such systems/parties in the world, from Wikipedia:

Nowadays examples include the Justice and Development Party (AKP) in Turkey, the Serbian Progressive Party (SNS) in Serbia,[4][5] the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV) in Venezuela, the New Azerbaijan Party (YAP) in Azerbaijan, Nur Otan in Kazakhstan, the People's Democratic Party of Tajikistan (PDPT) in Tajikistan, the Uzbekistan Liberal Democratic Party in Uzbekistan, Fidesz in Hungary, the People's Action Party (PAP) in Singapore, the African National Congress (ANC) in South Africa,[6] the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) in Japan,[6] the Cambodian People's Party (CPP) in Cambodia, the Awami League in Bangladesh, ZANU–PF in Zimbabwe, the Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) in Botswana, the MPLA in Angola, the Rwandan Patriotic Front (FPR) in Rwanda, the Human Rights Protection Party (HRPP) in Samoa and the National Council for the Defense of Democracy – Forces for the Defense of Democracy (CNDD–FDD) in Burundi. Sometimes United Russia (UR) in Russia, even though it is not a ruling party, but rather the 'party of power'.

>>15906317
There is no resemblance between the LDP and any of those other parties. Japan is a democracy, and nobody intelligent questions it.

>>15905280
>Western
>Liberal
>Democracy

>>15905280
He was right that liberalism had universally won; but time must have its way.

>>15905410
Wtf do you mean? Democracy will fail eventualy like it always does, the citizenry overextend the power and reach of their state until it falls to antidemocratic forces from within or foreing.

why is the current (at least the successful ones) counter-reaction to neoliberalism largely extremely right-wing?

>>15906389
>Japan is a democracy, and nobody intelligent questions it.
Japan is not a democracy. Out of the last 65 years of LDP’s existence, LDP has been the ruling party for 61 years. Essentially, it’s very hard for LDP to lose, the system is set in such a way. So with the exception of the 2005 and the 2009 election, the LDP almost always eclipses all other parties, typically having between 250-300 MPs out of the available 465 (secure 2/3rds majority), and the next biggest party having only 50-99 MPs. That is not a healthy and democratic political environment. The stable 2/3rds majority is secured by gerrymandering and other electoral reforms of the past that cemented LDP’s stay in government, along with other constitutional reforms to which the opposition cannot say anything

>>15906420
Best post

>>15906620
The neoliberals got their start in the USA with the conservative party, but over the decades, the neoliberal intelligentsia became more and more friendly with their progressive opposition. By the time of Obama, both the Republicans and the Democrats were staunchly neoliberal. Trump (who is himself a liberal btw) then takes the Republican party by storm using protectionist and isolationist rhetoric.
At this point, the powers that be had decided that the social conservatives were obsolete (conservatives have been losing cultural battles nonstop since 2008) and ultimately in the way of their goals, so the media threw a huge nonstop temper tantrum about how Trump was LITERALLY FASCIST, a white nationalist, wanted to take reproductive rights away from women, etc. Then they kneecapped the social democrat surge in the party in order to send an establishment neolib (Clinton) to fight him in what was meant to be an end of history #girlboss moment. But, against all odds, he won.
I think the progressive neoliberals were totally confident in the belief that they had won forever and could safely ignore the conservative parties now, but ended underestimating the amount of conservatives in existence. One reason here might be that the current mainstream western culture makes being a conservative seem heinous and taboo, and so many conservative voters keep that to themselves. So they had an illusion of having more societal domination than they actually had. Rather than questioning this worldview, however, it appears they are doubling down with the censorship and shaming.
The left has been mostly exhausted by using their social progressive ideals against them. Idpol crushed the Occupy protests without much of a fight. Complaining about anti-semitism, sexism, subconscious racism, lack of diversity, etc. in progressive movements wrecks them and also alienates the normal working class people. They also managed to convince the "pro labor" parties to back some very anti-worker things like the EU, NAFTA, mass immigration, TPP, etc. in the name of fighting racism.

>>15906626
>Essentially, it’s very hard for LDP to lose, the system is set in such a way
No it's not. The LDP is simply more popular than the other parties. It's literally that simple.
>The stable 2/3rds majority is secured by gerrymandering and other electoral reforms of the past that cemented LDP’s stay in government
No.
>along with other constitutional reforms to which the opposition cannot say anything
The constitution has never been revised. You have no idea what you're talking about.