/lit/ - Literature

>>15898236
>no response to ethical egoism
>denies choice of life
>ultimately a subjective problem, since most people aren’t antinatalist
>hardly an issue, since antinatalists are kept from securing their heaven of non-existence by the few seconds of pain that accompany suicide
>ignores any possibility of a utopia/heaven in the future that makes past suffering worth it
yeah, I’m thinking it’s cringe

>>15898236
take it to its natural conclusion and shoot yourself in the face.

>>15898236
>>15898243
you won't see anyone on this site practicing this because of the replacement theory.

I have all kinds of theories why life is better than afterlife.but a lot has to do with /x/ theories that we are operating in a function that is irrelevent to our personal happiness and situation.

>>15898325
they think non-existence is better, but not so much that suicide makes it worth it. Doesn’t seem like that big of a deal then

>>15898305
>>ignores any possibility of a utopia/heaven in the future that makes past suffering worth it

that is one thing.

why do we human beings grieve so hard, if they are with god in paradise? it is because we know that here is better than there. we may be slaves to the demiurge. but we crave this enslavement.

>yes i'm going to live til 90 and live in France where i can live off the welfare that is being payed by children of people who did have them.
Why not just having kids and raising them well so they can take care of you when you are old? Being a father is when you stop being someone's son after all.

>>15898368
>Why not just having kids and raising them well so they can take care of you when you are old?

Very selfish way of thinking.

>>15898345
>because of the replacement theory
Caring what happens to the human race after one's own death is the mark of the moron.

>>15898393
Mark of the overman, more like.

>>15898381
explain why

>>15898236
On reddit and so were you.
You should go back.

>>15898236
>ethics
Yeah, i don't into faggot shit.

I am a person who honestly and unironically resents being born. I wasn't abused, my parents were good people and well-meaning, and I had a fairly typical childhood. I'm not suicidal, however I think that I and others would be better off had I never been born in the first place.

The fact that I exist proves that you can't be wholly confident that despite having the time, money, temperament, and inclination to raise children well, that they will grow up to actually want what you've given them. Are you willing to roll the dice with your children's future? Would you accept a 10% chance that your children will resent you despite (or perhaps because of) the years of effort you invested in them? How about 1%? Or 1 in a million? Do you even care? If you realize that you don't, are your views on rape and murder consistent with the fact that you evidently have no compunction doing something to another person for your own gratification, with no regard for their feelings?

>>15899956
>t. low effort bitch

>>15898236
Antinatalism isn't a moral system but a moral conclusion that can be arrived at multiple ways. This is like saying "murder is wrong" is a moral system.

>>15898236
If antinatalism is valid, then antinatalism is invalid. Proof is left as an exercise for the reader.

>>15899956
>are your views on rape and murder consistent with the fact that you evidently have no compunction doing something to another person for your own gratification, with no regard for their feelings?
yes lmao murder is a quick way to ruin your life. At the very least you live with constant fear and guilt. Having a child does not have the same effect on someone because there’s no good reason to feel guilty for such a thing.

>>15898243
Easy- I am responsible for all the tears he will shed, and I don't care.

>>15898381
How selfish of me, to forgo all of my future dreams and projects in lieu of some ungrateful child, to pay for their expenses, food, housing, and entertainment for ~20 years, and to support all of the drama and problems they cause me. It sounds to me like you're just critiquing a negative caricature of someone who reproduces.

>>15899956
Yes, because I don't care and I'm not expecting anything back from them. Otherwise, no, rape and murder are not the same as reproduction, as you haven't actually done anything to the unborn, or to the child you've brought into existence.

>>15898236
yeah but if I wasn't born how else would I get to look at CUTE GIRLS

>oy childbirth is unethical and immoral, trust me its been logically and philosophically decided, s-see how much suffering there is in the world!, oy please don't have children I beg you

>>15898381
>Very selfish way of thinking.
so?

>>15898325
if I didn't choose to be born what makes you think there is an easy way to leave this hell? this is mostly a penitentiary world, if you kill yourself you will be reborn again

>>15900053
>this is mostly a penitentiary world, if you kill yourself you will be reborn again
so then not having children is totally insignificant

>>15898402
you are basically making slaves to take care of you

>bringing children is the most selfish thing
why do anti-natalists keep peddling this same obvious lie over and again? Being a parent means sacrificing nearly a quarter of your life to serve someone else, it it literally the most selfless act a human can do.

What does an antinatalist philosophy conceive a soul to be?

>>15900064
is that supposed to be an argument, plebbit?

>>15900064
Whats wrong with slavery

>>15900064
No, putting in an effort to raise them well and hope they return that kindness is the opposite of slavery. They could still choose to damn you which they would if you were being a bad father/mother.

>>15900078
hm yes, very selfish to imprison another soul to this shitty existence just because you are afraid of dying alone (everybody dies alone btw) or want them to pay your bills

>>15900099
...still not an argument lmao

>>15900099
>shitty existence
you're just projecting your own tragic life style

>>15900064
nothing grown with that
you can grow a tree and use it's fruits

>>15900040
>Old Man
>How selfish of me, to forgo all of my future dreams and projects in lieu of some ungrateful child
Don't play martyr. You never had any dreams or projects and you know it. Having a child let you pretend you could have been something when you really had neither the drive nor the talent.

when all the antinatalists die of old age or suicide they will reincarnate as animals, with no chance of union with the divine

>>15900110
if you are not a millionaire with exceptional genetics you shouldn't be able to reproduce btw

>>15900132
Good thing I am

>>15900132
true but we still need dumb people to join the army and fools that go to college to be in debt forever

>>15900135
that doesn't count your mom house

>>15900132
Were you the same anti-natalists in a 2019 thread that gave the example of having to wash dishes as reasons why the world is shitty? I bet it was you.

>>15900156
was that supposed to be funny?

>>15900156
(upvote)

>>15898236
RETARD

>>15899956
look, buddy. it's no one's fault but your own that you're ungrateful. you feel that you'd be better off not having been born, but you are simply not taking responsibility for your life.

>>15900162
I was in that thread and that anon compared chores to slavery, basically all anti-natalists are underage children going through an emo phase and throwing temper tantrums about having to do things.

>>15900099
>this shitty existence

YOUR existence is shitty. others do wonderful things with the gift of life they've been given (like give it to others). You look at the life you've failed to live and make it into an axiom of existence.

>>15900053
Did you choose not to be born?

>>15900064
What's wrong with that? Efilists claim we're "slaves" to the DNA molecule and propagation of it, but the most they do is stop reproducing and bitch online to anonymous people that they'll never persuade. They don't free themselves of this "slavery," which would be either transhumanism or suicide.

>>15900099
Those aren't reasons for which you should reproduce. People can choose not to reproduce for selfish reasons as well.

>everybody dies alone
Especially you. Luckily, I don't see that as a bad thing.

>>15900132
What if we get to choose our baby's genes?

>>15900125
They'll get an early taste of animal-life here on earth. Purposeless existence, leaving only a body and some nugatory intellectual works (at best).

>>15900123
I'm not an Old Man, that's just the trip I chose. It's because I feel old.

>you never had any dreams or projects and you know it
Actually, the reality is anything but. I'm so full of projects and foolhardy dreams I can barely accomplish them and I rarely stick to any.

>Having a child let you pretend you could have been something
For some, this could be the case.

>when you really had neither the drive nor the talent
If I was able to raise that child successfully, then that will have been an accomplishment in itself. Raising a child is like composing a work of art, living life is like adding to that work of art. Of course, this is all just aloof nonsense to you lot, but don't come crying to me when your life lacks purpose and you lack willpower to see through your suffering.

>>15898325
1. empathy for parents and family, and how it will shatter their lives
2. i might fuck it up and be in a vegetative state for decades
3. let's not be edgy here, killing yourself is not a piece of cake
4. killing yourself is not the same as never being born; there's a major hurdle to get to nonexistence once you exist
5. you haven't thought about it beyond "le kys bruh"

>>15898236
Aaaaaaaand that's how you refute ethics!

>>15898381
the self is all that matters

>>15898243
this is your brain on (pseudo)rationalism

>>15900219
>others do wonderful things with the gift of life they've been given
I've never met one like this to this day, humans are boring and destructive, the world would be a better place without us, demons torturing each other

>(like give it to others)
so basically being a slave for other egoists?

>>15900225
Is it better to exist, or not to exist? Don't tell me it's better to "never have existed at all," because you can only say that if you've first existed. Hence "would be."

>>15900225
>2
shotgun to the head is pretty effective. Do it while jumping off a building after drinking poison for guaranteed success
>1, 3, 4, 5
it’s not easy, but if you’re not willing to do it, then you obviously don’t think existence is that bad. I would go through such pain if it meant I would get $500 after being “reincarnated” to the moment right before I killed myself. Would you not do the same? How valuable is non-existence to you?

>>15900243
>so basically being a slave for other egoists
He was referring to alleviating other's suffering, something you'd normally be on board with, but do continue with your pessimism. It's self-destructive, but only you don't see that.

>>15900243
>I've never met one like this to this day
Get out of your grotto

>humans are boring and destructive
If your only example of a human is you and the sad fucks gathering around you (or the sad fucks who made you the way you are), then I can see why you think that. Just know, you don't even fully know the people you're using as examples.

>the world would be a better place without us, demons torturing each other
Without torture, there wouldn't be relief. Without us, there would be no one to appreciate a change, just endless hordes of animals, unicellular organisms, and plants, ever reproducing, consuming, killing and dying forever until chance ends it all. Humans are more than that.

>>15900254
>shotgun to the head is pretty effective
not him but this is probably my method if I can't get Nembutal. A debreather sounds nice too. The problem with drugs or asphyxiation is waking up half-dead. The Hemingway Solution is 99%. Just don't miss high.

>>15900302
>Hemingway Solution

>>15900254
>it’s not easy, but if you’re not willing to do it, then you obviously don’t think existence is that bad.
I disagree. I see life as a prison and in order to escape you have to figure out a way to steel the sleeping cop's key without him finding out. Or something like that. Are you a millionaire? It's not easy but since you're not one it means you like being poor.

the problem with anti-natalism is there will eventually be no more anti-natalists

>>15900331
Why should I hate being poor, if I can fulfill my needs?

>>15900244
not him but all anti-natalists rely on a logical paradox that they assume people exist before birth in some ethereal manner and that they somehow have choice and autonomy prior to their own coming into being.

To say 'I didn't have a choice in my birth' is complete nonsense since choice only matters to someone having the ability to choose in the first place.

>>15900268
stop being deluded and see people by what they are and not by shallow appearances

>>15900335
and that's a good thing

>>15900331
what a disappointing response. Who wouldn’t commit “suicide” for $500? It’s so worth it.
> It's not easy but since you're not one it means you like being poor.
horrible analogy. Suicide is cheap and quick, and everyone knows how to do it. I’m not convinced you value non-existence that much because you’re not even willing to go through a few seconds of suffering, if that.

>>15900340
some of them will contradict themselves on this point, changing their view when it’s convenient. Point out how antinatalism denies pleasure and choice and they will say that you can’t deprive pleasure from a non-existent being...they want to have it both ways

>>15900325
I read that book 20 years ago. First word? "Fuck"

>>15900335
how did anti-natalists get created then?

>>15900393
internet

>>15900345
If I actually knew more about him, I'd respond with something more than banter. I know he's not necessarily what I said, but if say you've never seen anyone who's not a "boring and selfish demon," I can't assume you're anything but a deluded shut-in. Perhaps, in a way, like me.

>>15900372
Look at the bottom of the screenshot

>>15900393
Born from the wrong hole

>>15900416
>bottom of the screenshot
kek

>>15900370
"depriving" someone pleasure requires them to exist. while "preventing" the experience of suffering doesn't. please tell me you have enough brain cells to notice the nuance.

>>15898236
>ethics
No thanks

>>15900340
see >>15900434

Every anti-natalist is a nihilist looking for a way to spread misery so they feel vindicated for their shifty life choices. When things are good, the anti-natalist says it doesn't matter because goodness is arbitrary or non-existent or transient, when things are bad, life is awful and everything sucks and waa I hate doing my teeth or not succeeding or having to study to do well and everyone must be suffering like me because there's no way I really am a pathetic faggot.

Just like every other belief about anything, anti-natalism is an emotional response to stimuli, except it doesn't even have the rare luxury of being logically consistent or even vaguely rational. Kill yourself or be a better person, but stop posting these fucking threads to feel better about yourself.

>>15900405
lose your wealth or health and see all your cool "friends" vanish with it

>>15900434
OK, then I’ll re-phrase it as “preventing someone from experiencing pleasure.” Same thing

>>15900457
that doesn't change anything. the "lack of pleasure" is the bad thing, but if you're not alive then that point is moot. the "lack of suffering" is the good thing, you don't have to be alive for that.

>>15900456
I don't have any friends, nor have I had any in the past years, nor do I want any.

>>15900434
You can prevent the suffering of entities that don't exist? Whose suffering are you preventing again?

>>15900479
>lack of suffering is good
>lack of pleasure is bad

>lack of suffering is neither good nor bad
>lack of pleasure is neither good nor bad

Pick one.

>>15898236
>Cioran
>spends his entire life writing arcane encomiums of suicide and life-denial
>dies an old man, of natural causes
He refutes himself

>>15900047
People who have children to fulfill some ideological obligation shouldn't have children. Families that aren't rooted in love are hell

>>15900454
>nihlist
I wish people would stop throwing that word around as a pseduo-intellectual insult without understanding what it means (or acknowledging the distinct varieties of nihilism).

>>15900533

>>15900535
>the distinct varieties of nothing

Kys

>>15900535
you sound really smart anon

>>15900544
I rest my case.

>>15900544
I imagine most people do from your perspective.

>>15900536
Imagine some INTP Ted Kaczynski tier freak manages to wife up a naive white evangelical girl with the entire purpose of their relationship is to preserve the white race in some rural flyover trailer park. The kids will undeniably grow up traumatized with their autistic gummo upbringing, and the wife will gain weight and get diabetes because she's emotionally wrecked by her loveless relationship.

>>15900587
Worst case scenario. But I agree, parents whose ultimate goal is not the child will not have a pleased, peaceful family.

>>15898236
Antinatalism is not ethics, it is morals:
>ethics implies exterior praxis = knowing how to make things well, aka, sincronicity between being and time.
>morals implies interior praxis = restrict your own desire, aka, submit to an external regulation.

That's why moralists always die like slaves.

>>15900535

I used it in the exactly correct way, which you would understand if you could read subtext, retard. Are you one of these faggots that pops up every few threads just to eyeroll at something you can only pretend to understand because you never actually read anything? I don't use nihilist as an insult, anti-natalists use nihilism as a security blanket so they don't have to confront their wastrel existence. Do you have any other dumb shit to say here, or do you think you can move on to wasting other peoples' time?

>>15900331
there isn't anything wrong with being poor as long as the most basic necessities are taken care of, i have less than zero interest in buying things or really spending money at all. i don't want anything.

>>15900587
Imagine being a jewish man like yourself

>>15898236
>doesn't fulfill the categorical imperative
into the trash it goes

>>15900675
being poor means you have to wageslave your life away

>>15900713
why should I care about the categorical imperative

>>15899956
>t. letzter Mensch

>>15898325
death is part of existence and serves life you brainlet
stepping outside of the life and death cycle is their goal
it's just buddhism but coming to a different conclusion

>>15900734
did I say you should? by all means go ahead if you're not a rational thinking being