/lit/ - Literature

What's it about?

>>15870878
Interesting anon, would like to hear more of your thoughts on it if you could.

Westminister confession of faith
Book of common prayer
The Pilgrim's Progress

These 3 works is all a man needs to be content in life

>>15870908
I enjoyed it because it is completely explicit, plain, unapologetic, and straightforward. The only part where it deviates into emotionalism appears to be, from my reading of it, when it attacks Catholics/the pope for certain things. The term "shameless popery" comes from here.

Otherwise, it is a text where every single word was clearly picked very carefully for clarity of meaning. It makes me want to believe in God/Jesus because it expresses such faith as a simple act... an epistemological lurch, that once taken exposes a clear and simple pattern of belief and living that simplifies everything.

I come from a Catholic background so that is not what I was used to. The Westminster does not engage in outdated metaphysics or apologetic proofs or anything like that. It simply presents the option for faith and asks one to accept it or not.

>>15870957
The Westminster concedes all the ground that Thomists have spent centuries battling for about natural theology and naturalistic proofs of God:

>I. Although the light of nature and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;(a) yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.(b) Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church;(c) and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing:(d) which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;(e) those former ways of God’s revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.(f)

>>15870957
Huh, thank you very much anon. I have been meaning to get into some prot stuff, and specifically read about the happenings durring the english civil war for some time now. I also grew up catholic, but in a historically episcable, Methodist, and Quaker area and have some sympathies for some protestant stances. What you wrote really sparks my interest and i have read a decent amount of historical english works in the 1700's, but not 1600's. definitely something i will add to my reading list. the austerity and simplicity that you mentioned is something i have noticed in some of my research, and i definitely would like to get more in this mindset and experience it. thank you OP.

>>15870989
I am also a current Calvinist and former Catholic. Classical, Confessional, Evangelical Reformed/Presbyterian faith is just amazing. The theology is very deep actually. I'd recommend reading a lot of material online from the Westminster Theological Seminary, as well as books by a writer called Joel Beeke, a Dutch man who came to America to study the Puritans. He developed such a love for them he opened up the Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, a very orthodox seminary that is growing rapidly. It's fascinating to read a Dutch guy's analysis of Puritans and see his childlike interest in them.

>>15871034
Thats really neat op. ill definitely check it out. dont get too many prot conversations on /lit/, mostly catholic or eastern ortho, but im glade i found this one. I also wnated to reevaluate the puritans, despite their somewhat.... puritan reputation, from at least what i gleamed from scarlet letter (which i know is a later book, but it seemed to have respect for some aspects of the culture and mores) there was again a real christian simplicity and goodness in them (this might also just be the transcendentalist bent of the book idk). it will be interesting for a less literary, and more evaluative take on them.

>>15870878
I dont understand protestantism. You guys think the early church was wrong and the Holy Spirit didnt guide it?

>>15871635
You think the catholic church has been the same since the early church?

>>15871648
Nah I think the Orthodox Church has been though

>>15870878
>Where do I go from here?
you buy yourself one of those buckle puritan hats

>>15871635
The Reformed tradition is about recognizing the fact that the medieval church slid into Pelagianism. Calvinism is simply a return to Augustinianism. The early church recognised the importance of Augustine's fight with Pelagius but gradually tolerated more and more Pelagianism over time, until it was formalized at Trent.

Also there is no credible historians on earth who would equate the early church with the Catholic church. I mean that, not one. The idea that they are synonymous is pure Catholic propaganda not grounded in anything historical whatsoever.

>>15872151
anon see>>15871816
Also why do you only focus on Pelagianism/Agaustinianism? Apostolic succesion is clear in the Bible and Church Fathers

>>15871843
Not a bad list. There must be stuff missing though. What about Calvin's institutes?

I've seen more and more Reformed posting, and it's not surprising. In evangelical circles, the rise of neo Reformed or New Calvinists among the younger crows has been well documented for about 10 years now. It's the new zeitgeist, sorta like tradcaths but it's not some fringe subversive group. The major evangelical Presbyterian churches are growing at rates only exceeded by nondenominational. Presbyterian Church in America has been suffering from liberal infiltration and will probably fracture soon, but unlike in Catholicism this doesn't matter. The conservatives will simply keep being conservative and keep growing while the liberals die off like always.

>>15872164
Apostolic succession really isn't clear. It's also based on a conception of the sacraments that is simply not clear in the early church. I'll qualify that: there was a distinct disagreement about sacramental efficacy that the church fathers were very divided about. Whether apostolic succession can be considered a remotely plausible thing depends in large part on this, but I also don't see the evidence for it being clear. The early church in fact was often congregations in "calling up" presbyters and bishops.

I also think that the apostolic succession churches have no ability to truly prove their lines are valid. Most bishops in the West invented their lines out of whole cloth in the middle ages in what amounted to a form of larping.

But sacramental efficacy to me is the big deal here.

>>15872215
The auto correct on my phone sucks holy shit

>>15872215
Why do you think the church 'degenerated' lets say doctrinally over time? Genuinely curious because i rarely see protestant discussion on lit

>>15872257
It was merely a continuation of the same battle we see played out in various heresies over time. That never really changed, and like I said, up until Trent the tension between Augustine and Pelagius was a constant thing. The anathemas of Trent insisting on free will and inefficacious grace were the final straws.

I don't see degeneration per se, but I see a gradual advancement toward what is now called Catholicism. This body allowed this tension to play out for centuries while Aquinas misinterpreted Augustine and introduced Aristotle to the Church, entrenching the major problems and the eventual concession to all out Pelagianism.

Then there's the issue of church authority. But I have to give my daughter a bath now. I'll be around later this evening.

>>15870878
A whole bunch of words that basically reduce to "I want to get divorced and the Pope can't stop me!"

>>15872411
Ah i see that makes sense thanks for anwsering anon. Im (going to become) a Orthodox catechumen myself but i rsspect the goals of protestantism. May God bless you and your family :)

>>15871843
Hey, I made that chart :D
I've learned a lot more about Puritanism since then and have read a lot more. If I was doing it again I would suggest picking up any of the Puritan Paperback titles from Banner of Truth. Any of them will usually be the best on their subject.

>>15872575
thanks for the chart bro

>>15872506
I don't mind orthodoxy. I considered it. My main issue with other branches is primarily with Catholicism and their literally insane understanding of their own authority and infallibility. It is nonsense. If I had approached an orthodox church that was thriving I may have joined.

With evangelical Presbyterianism, I was impressed with all the young families and younger presence in general, the huge families, the investment in classical Christian schools that teach Latin and Greek and are structured around the Trivium. It was such a vibrant scene, and very grounded in church history, despite what Catholics say.

It was after that I became impressed with the theology. If apostolic succession is true, the orthodox church is the heir. Catholics certainly aren't. And Anglicans might have had some nebulous case, but their theology is more schizophrenic and confused then the Catholics. The Anglicans were at one point very Reformed, but later succumbed to Anglo Catholicism and then surprise surprise modernism.

>>15872575
Anything by Joel Beeke? I know he's a big guy, but is there any definitive work of his? What about some of the Princeton school like BB Warfield?

I would really like to build a Reformed collection.

>>15871843
The KJV was almost entirely lifted verbatim from William Tyndale's translation. "Forty seven scholars" my ass.

>>15872758
I've not actually read anything by Beeke though I've watched a few of his sermons on YT. I refer to Meet the Puritans often but that was co-authored. I know he is the general editor for the Reformation Heritage KJV study bible and I've given a couple of those away.

>Princeton school like BB Warfield
I've not really read any 19th century Presbyterians except for M'Cheyne. I'm more interested in the reformed side of Anglicanism right now and am working through everything by J.C. Ryle.

>>15872847
>"Forty seven scholars" my ass.
You're right. It was actually fifty-four.

Protestantism is the synthesis of all heresies.

>>15872847
I've started to develop a real fondness for the ESV, especially because I like that they have a variety of study bibles. I have the Archeology Study Bible, but I'm eyeing the Systematic Theology one for a later leatherbound purchase.

>>15872945
uh oh, stinky

Daily reminder all NON CATHOLICS go to HELL, except for Jews possibly, and you are all schismatic psychopaths who deserve the rope

:)

>>15871843
I know this is puritan specific, but you can't really do Calvinism with including Machen's Christianity and Liberalism. It's too important.

HAHAHA HEY GUYS I WANT 2 BE A FAGGOT HIP CALVINIST TOO SO I CAN GO TO HELL WITH MY FELLOW ""::::ELECT::::""" BROTHERS lmao

There is no salvation outside the Church. Period.

>>15873561

>>15873561
>There is no salvation outside the Church.
Protestants don't disagree. Why are you so upset?

>>15873579
based. catholic church is dying even faster than mainlines.

>>15871843
Good list, but it needs to be bigger. Still, it's a pretty good starter kit.

>>15874445
The focus was Puritans.

>>15876076
I know.

>>15873579
more and more people choosing the hellfire, sad!