/lit/ - Literature

>>15870658
>There is literally no good reason to deny gaming's artistic
Who does this though? Of course there are video games with artistic value, Mass Effect for example. Video games are just a medium, they can be anything.
The problem is just, that too many games are designed to kill time and be addictive, LOL an the likes.

>>15870658
Tentatively agree because I played Spec Ops The Line and liked it a lot.

But I do

>>15870698
Oh and Hotline Miami which for its soundtrack alone is an artistic masterpiece.

because the only good games are strategy games that arent trying to be hipster art pieces

>>15870658
Maybe because they have no artistic merit?

>>15870658
there are maybe a handful of games that are of any merit, and this is coming from someone whose main pastime for the better part of three decades was video games

>>15870658
Because all the games that attempt to be profound are just hipster indie 2d pixel art games.

>>15870704
>Fanged Noumena
nigga, you're better off smoking a shitload of meth. even Land thinks that book is a mess

>>15870658
Because all the games that attempt to be profound are just hipster indie 2D pixel art trash.

After clocking 6 years total play time on WoW and being rank 1 Oceanic healer (rank 2 US rank 4 world) for m+ (7.2/3)... I will not ever be playing another game again.

It's a new medium that deviates from how we've always told stories: the way the story unfolds is affected by player input, and the more freedom to make choices is granted to the player, the more non-linear and fragmented it gets.
This is why games essentially require a fundamentally different approach to storytelling, lest the story gets reduced to "press x to learn more", which boils down to a poorly paced story that constantly gets interrupted by busywork. So-called "ludonarrative dissonance" is also a common problem, where the gameplay detracts from the story that's being told. IME it's rare that the story of a game actually utilizes the medium in such a way that it couldn't have been told more effectively as a book or a movie.

>>15870658
Books are written by one person. They are the creation of that person and an extension of their thoughts.
Movies, while created by a team of people, often have one or two people controlling production. Indeed, movies with more centralized control tend to be considered more artistically valuable. Great artists in film (people like Stanley Kubrick or Orson Welles, for instance) were extreme centralizers and often wrote and directed their own stuff.
Video games are necessarily made by a studio. Writing tends to be done by many people, and so is the presentation. While there is a director (or directors), these people tend to have a lot less centralized control than directors in the movies or writers with books. There are individual games that are developed by a small or that give centralized control to a director or two, but they are unusual. Most video games (even ones that most people proclaim are art) are developed like marvel movies. They are thus looked at similarly to marvel movies.

>>15870738
This. Classifying video games in general as art is like classifying TV shows in general as art. It's 99% commercials, entertainment or propaganda.

>>15870777
Who cares what an author thinks of their own work?

>>15870658
I was skeptical of games as art until I played Disco Elysium, but that's basically a picture book.

>>15870777
Nice trips anon but where did Land say this?

Game stories are usually barebones because gameplay is what playing video games is about. Any game that attempts to have a more in depth story just seems like a bastardized attempt to make a movie with tacked on gameplay. If you actually enjoy video games you shouldn't give a shit about their literary values.

Who is this semen demon?

>>15870805
This is absolutely right. All of the best Japanese video games had directors with a large degree of creative control.

>>15870658
when I was a teenager I learned many english words from games.

>>15870836
just trust the trips bro

(he doesen't think it's a mess, he has just basically disavowed the whole thing by stating it "isn't really a thing" and that he couldn't really say he was the person that wrote it, that it came from "somewhere else" -basically a bunch of drugs-)

>>15870805
>Video games are necessarily made by a studio. Writing tends to be done by many people, and so is the presentation. While there is a director (or directors), these people tend to have a lot less centralized control than directors in the movies or writers with books
There are a lot of games made by a single person.
See Touhou

>>15870897
>>15870836
check his tweets where he talks about the book

>>15870658
there was a single post on /lit/ a while ago where some anon was laughing at people who consider videogames to be another medium for narrative storytelling, when in actually the source code that underlies everything is the actual literature of games and that if one were to embrace that they would revolutionize literature.
I agreed with that post.

>>15870658
Pretending to be your own adversary, presenting an obvious troll/bait/weak argument, so you can samefag and knock your own strawman down, so the whole train will stand up and clap like what happened in your head when you rehearsed this in the shower

>>15870658
>Literary value
This is the problem. Games are not books. Games are their own unique medium with different standards of quality and expectations. When games try to be like books or movies, they fail because there's a dimension of the medium being ignored. In trying to define quality of one medium in the terms of another, it falls flat.

>>15871008
Did you make the whole thread so you could post this?

>>15870658
Atheists are always quick, and correct, to point out that art is always paid for by those with the money.

Look around you. Who do you suppose has the money? Publishers have it, but the AAA devs and filmmakers have more.

Now, with that said, it is very obvious that there are an amount of actual books with genuine objective and useful quality than any one of us could read in a lifetime.

My point being both are valid and useful. So long as gamers curate their artistic intake as much as readers avoid smut novels

Fucking tourists and their insecurities.
>>15870916
Ah, yes, the narrative qualities of bullet hell videogames...

>>15870658
Maybe stuff like portal or Abe's Odyssey, in terms of developing lore and creating a powerful atmosphere. Most games are just meant to be fun. At least Minecraft can theoretically helps to prevent Alzheimer's

>t. currently addicted to tf2 after going a year without finding games fun

>>15870658
Is that Alyson Hannigan

>>15871272
>is the teenager in this picture a 46 year old woman?

>>15870658
>refuse to accept the literary value of gaming
Because it's baby tier. Videogame writing is fucking cringe. Tried to play some KOTOR a couple years ago after having loved it when I was a young teen. It was trash.

>>15871296
that game's director and writer actually wrote several star wars books

as expected, drew karpyshians creative talent was not segmented by hundreds of hours of pew pew and inventory management

>>15870704
Do you not realize how pathetic this picture makes you look?

>>15870658
>Why do people still refuse to accept the literary value of gaming?
I don't "refuse to accept it", I don't care. I don't play video games and I don't waste any time thinking about them, much less forming opinions that pertain to them. I don't concern myself with things that are made for children.
Why don't you take this discussion to >>>/toy/ where you can talk to other psychologically stunted freaks? Maybe they'll be more willing to argue with you.

>>15871325
The Mass Effect novel I read by him is one of the reasons why I despise most hard SF.

>>15871367
Why do I have a feeling that behind these bitter words hides a history of a life-long addiction?

>>15871396
I'm addicted to cooming and questionably dependent (?) on coffee, but the rest is your own projection. Nice reply though, tantamount to a "who hurt you" or "yikes".

>>15870658
It can have artistic value, but not literary value, as it's not literature. Same way you wouldn't say a film has literary value

>>15871352
No

>>15871411
You're racist too, aren't you? You fit the profile

Artistic value of games lies in gameplay. "Video game writers" are subhumans on par with Chuck Wendig and Ernest Cline.

>>15871493
Imagine not being racist.

>>15871493
I'm not here to argue but let's definitely keep this going. Send me your wife's number so I can have sex with her.

>>15871493
Everyone is racist. Baby chicks are racist against hawks. It's an inbuilt genetic level response and denying its existence and function is denying part of what it means to be human. Individuals who claim they aren't racist are mentally ill. They are like rats infected with toxoplasmosis who are attracted to cat urine. It's a defective response to stimuli that screams dysfunction and illness.

>>15871493
>You're racist too, aren't you? You fit the profile

>>15870704
>playing the remake for 3ds with its shitty art changes
You're an idiot.

>>15870658
>the literary value of gaming
>gaming's artistic value
Make up your mind. Shit thread that doesn't belong on /lit/ either way, though.

>>15871834
Fuck you buddy, I played the original on the DS when it came out.
I wanted to check the new dungeons

>>15870658
Aside from a few games (New Vegas, Portal, Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines, and the original Fallout games to an extent) most games compare to general mid-tier lit fiction. Most of the AAA games are worse in this regard. However, video games offer a different experience (visual and interactive) that doesn't compare well to literature. Also, as >>15870696 points out, most games nowadays are designed to be addictive and money hungry rather than offer any profound ideas or stories. Video Games are largely experience based, with less emphasis on story, whereas Literature is more language and structure. Apples and oranges.

>>15871848
>>15871499
>>15871514
>>15871644
>>15871325
>>15871296
>>15871127
>>15871086
>>15870991
>>15871008
>>15870805
>>15870795

shit tier argument.

Literary value? Why would I hold W or do some other time-wasting activity to progress the written story when I could just, y'know, turn the page?

>>15870658
>omg vidya gaymes are aaaaaaarrrrttttt!!!!!!!
No, fuck off and die.

>>15870658
Kojima made it into Bleeding Edge, pynchon calls him genius

>>15872647
> omg vidya gaymes are aaaaaaarrrrttttt!!!!!!!
No, fuck off and die.

Stories with literary value peaked with the Legacy of Kain games (including the ps1 game) unfortunately game companies are soulless and we'll never have anything remotely good ever again.

>>15870658
I don't think video games as a medium are not art. just that most video games are consumer trash, in the same way that most Hollywood movies are.

think about the subject matter. are most games about anything? the "deepest" games that make redditors wet might talk about capitalism once or George bush, or some shit like that.
they just don't ask larger questions about life and society
I think this is mostly because the creators are not very insightful people. who the fuck writes video games?

in a similar way that cartoons are often more "real" than Hollywood propoganda, I think abstract games like Minecraft or Mario are actually more artful. these games don't have story but latch onto interesting aspects of life and turn them into a game

perhaps sci-fi oe fantasy work building is another area video games can do well. but even there most games I think of have completely bland and uninspired world design

>>15870658
No one denies gaming's artistic value, only that most videogames being made are absolute shit with no artistic value.

>>15871058
>>15871008
>>15870658
im starting to suspect you started the thread to post all of the above. and they all end in 8. hmm...

>>15870658
What does literary value have to do with gaming's artistic value? They are two completely different things, and videogames hardly have literary value because they either don't really have a story or have shitty stories made for kids, teenagers, and people who like the MCU and Game of Thrones.

>>15873244
since literature is art? How is that hard to understand?

>>15870658

The medium has potential for artistic value but very little has been made that can be mentioned in the same breath as literature, film, and the visual arts. Most games ultimately prioritize escapism, which, while a valuable thing, may not be the peak of art.

>>15873228
You also end in 8. Congrats, you are me and I started this thread, and the whole website, to lose this argument.

>>15870658
There can be artistic value, and there has been, but the medium is very young and the process to create one is expensive so examples are rarer than they should be. We still have a few though, MGS2 and V, the first three Silent Hill games, Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas, and Demon's Souls to name a few.

>>15870658
gaming has artistic value but it has not reached the level of being academic yet.

>>15870658
who is the girl, she looks a bit similar to shoeonhead

There WAS a time where video games might have looked like an emerging new artform. I'm talking like the late 80s up to the late 90s. Now video games are too commodified to be respected as 'art'. To suggest that 99% of video games are 'art' is to pretend that top 40 radio is 'art'. Yes, music is art. But the music that we are discussing, predominantly, is not. As it goes for video games.

Obviously games with great stories are still around. Just like "great music being made today"

>>15876026
Vidya is a vice, like smoking cigarettes or whisky. The goal of vidya is to trap you in a skinner box of pointless mental masturbation while you endlessly pop those quarters; the 'artistic' trappings are just an incidental ruse, like the rotting stink that attracts flies to a venus flytrap.

> literary value of gaming
This is the dumbest bait in the history of bait, and yet I can't help but bite...