/lit/ - Literature

>so
?????

>>15860225
Do you not have anything better to do than impotently rage at words? Peasants vulgarized the language since the dawn of time, right now you're speaking the mogrel bastard child of latin and old english, Cicero wouldn't even spit in your direction.

>>15860225
The grammatically correct version of “y’all” is you.

>>15860237
Only as a starter.
>Soooo I just finished reading blah blah
That zoomer/Valley girl annoying construction

"Peep" instead of "watch."
>I can't wait for the theatres to re-open so I can peep the new Nolan flick on 70mm IMAX film, bro!

>>15860295

>>15860225
When I see college urbanites using slag like no cap or deadass I feel like a dark cloud over a really nice family picnic

>>15860225
>ayo
>cuh
>whatchu
>talm
>bout
>cracka

>>15860243
This. OP is a fucking idiot.

>>15860295
Based that store owner doesn't wan't sheltered little pussies in his store.

People who aren’t from the south who say “y’all.” It sounds so stupid for some reason

>>15860225
folks

>>15860249
Technically, "Ye" is the English plural second person pronoun, but "You" is an acceptable alternative. If I hear anybody other then an American from the deep south say "Y'all", I stop listening to them, because I know nothing they say will be of any value.

>>15860225
finna is good tho. I like "bime" too

>>15860708
it was invented in like 2012 by obama who said "we tortured some folks". It's a for people (often leftists) to seem more down to earth, harmless, friendly and relatable

>>15861403
>finna is good tho
you must be a nigger

>>15861417
>. It's a for people (often leftists) to seem more down to earth, harmless, friendly and relatable
lol Ben Shapiro uses it a lot

>>15860225
>bruh
>folks

>>15861417
>>15861453
wasn't the original word "folk"? did Onigger pervert it?

>imagine being this much of a prescriptivist
typing sage in the options field prevents you from bumping bait threads

>>15861470
t.urbanite retard that unironically says deadass and lit

>>15861470
Prescriptivism is kino. Only niggers and hippies would disagree.

>>15861485
>>15861490
seethe

>>15861490

Dude, years from now some kid is going to be using a slang word for "ain't" and some prescriptivist is going to correct him.

Language changes. Just like everything else. Trying to stop that is just...pointless.

>>15861537
>haha thats so fire!

>>15861537
cope

>>15861543
It's beyond me why you angloids don't have a language institution to protect and oversee English. You should have one in England at least. Your language is currently being niggerized beyond recognition and you're just sitting here like a giga cuck. It's a sad thing to see. It's like seeing an old friend being killed with a smile on his face.

>>15861543
Everything falls apart in time. You can either be a passive observer who just watches things die, or you can be a rational agent who tries to repair things.

"low-key"
"cringe"
"bruh"
"seethe"
if you say any of these unironically then a gun should materialize in the air next to you with its barrel pressed against your temple and pull its own trigger by itself

>>15860414
Slang* not slag

>>15860425
I've never actually heard someone talk like this unless you're some 80s black guy. Slang has evolved since then how come 4chan doesn't get it.

>>15861572
got me there
>>15861553
>strawmanning this hard
just because i dont think people should police words doesn't mean i want to read a book in ebonics. is it so hard to understand that there is a distinction between written and spoken language?

>>15861617
Whats a million times worse is when you see a white kid saying these

>>15861640
>haha thats lowkey facts

>>15861602
why don't you use thou in your speech then?

>>15860243
None of the above are legitimately popularized, it's all artificial usage. I speak joual french and it's totally natural, it comes from environment. When I hear some random other faggot say calisse or tabbarnak I know that it's forced and contrived because they were never brought up in an environment that would have led them to have this vocabulary.

>>15861598
the english people are fucked anyway, you really think they give a damn about their language that only non english people will be speaking a century from now

>>15861640
>strawmanning this hard
just because i dont think people should police words doesn't mean i want to read a book in ebonics. is it so hard to understand that there is a distinction between written and spoken language?

>>15860225
>>literally
Fucking hate it

>>15861660
>>15861650
its on the house

>>15861651
Sometimes I do, for a joke. But that's not really relevant, the "Thou/You" distinction is a historical artefact of the Norman Invasion of 1066, it's not an essential part of communication. Whereas, the changes that have taken place in English in recent years are detrimental to the actual underlying concepts of words. For example. what does "Cringe" even mean? It's just a noise that means "I don't like you, go away", functionally It's no different then a Dog's bark. It's a sound which is irrelevant to the original meaning of the word "cringe" and to sentence which it is typed in response to. The same could be said of most buzz-words and buzz-phrases: "deadass", "cope", "consume media" or even worse, "consume a piece of media". Things like this are lowering the signal-to-noise ratio to the point where it's becoming difficult to express complex ideas. Try to translate the preamble to the Declaration of Independence into modern, colloquial English and you'll see just how difficult it is to express anything more complex then "I like it" or "I don't like it" in modern American English.

You're using nigger slang when you say words like low-key and fire. Please have some self respect. You aren't cool or black.

>>15861758
>>15860627

>>15860225
Like.

Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like. Like.

>>15861758
Cringe

>>15861821
There stands a perceptive man with his finger on the pulse of modern society.
>>15861846
*Defensive cat noises*.

>>15861832
thats me though. I can't help myself

>>15861758
>it's not an essential part of communication
That's because you grew up in a culture that no longer values being deferential to others in your behavior and speech. The language you speak has evolved to accommodate that. In many other languages and cultures, these types of distinctions hold more significance not only in formal places but in daily life.
>Things like this are lowering the signal-to-noise ratio to the point where it's becoming difficult to express complex ideas.
This completely ignores connotation and the context of a word. In that case, what's the point of having multiple words for big? It would suffice to have no more than two words: big, and one for very big like colossal. I also don't understand how buzz-phrases increase the difficulty of expressing complex ideas. Posting "cringe" in response to a post you don't like has no relation to the size of your vocabulary. Rather, simple sentences would just indicate that replying isn't worth the effort. It could be because they have ulterior intention like (You) farming or that you just have a shitty baseless opinion. I don't understand where the connection is.

>>15861812
"cool" is nigger slang, too.

>>15862019
and your point? Are you admitting to all of us you are that nerdy white kid that says things like 'lit' 'fire' 'lowkey' and 'cool'?

>>15862019
Cool is clearly being used in an ironic sense there, midwit.

>>15861637
They still talk that way believe it or not. I've seen it.

>>15860425
>>15860225
>when you’ve use all of these in a chapter of your debut novel. Guess I’m not going to make it

>>15862003
>That's because you grew up in a culture that no longer values being deferential to others in your behaviour and speech.

I was speaking specifically about the "Thou/You" distinction and why it was abolished. There are (or at least there were, when I was a schoolboy) other ways to formally address somebody in English.

>what's the point of having multiple words for big?

To express gradations: there's a spectrum of possibilities between "big" and "biggest". And for diversity of language, the word "big" is such a frequently used word, that prose and poetry would become repetitive if we had no alternatives.

>I also don't understand how buzz-phrases increase the difficulty of expressing complex ideas.

For a number of reasons: people come to rely on them and use them in lieu of genuine communication (how often is "cringe" used on this website to dismiss any opinion which the reader does not wish to entertain?) this has the effect of converting meaningful dialogue into a war fought using buzzwords. They often have no relevance to the words they originate from ("Cringe" no longer has anything to do with the action of cringing, it's just a hostile noise) which confuses the meaning of legitimate words; nowadays we have to rely on context clues to determine if "literally" actually means "literally" or if it means the exact opposite, for example. And they often contribute no meaningful information to the sentence, how do the words "ironically" or "physically" contribute anything when they're often employed ironically and to non-physical actions? It's all noise, no signal.

>Posting "cringe" in response to a post you don't like has no relation to the size of your vocabulary.

The problem isn't the people who say such things, a lot of intelligent people say these things just because they know it will get a reaction. The problem is the effects which result from propagating the words.

> I don't understand where the connection is.

The brief summary is that language is about mob-rule, words that are used stay, words that are not, don't. So when we start introducing words that don't really mean anything and employ them frequently, we're not only introducing a superfluous member into the language, we're also pushing useful language out.

>>15861602

The difference is that there really isn't anything that needs to be repaired here. As long as language still serves its primary function, everything else is just nostalgia.

It's not like language is being destroyed, it's just taking a different form. Change is life. I mean it just seems like a stupid hill to die on.

>>15861758

If there wasn't a use for the word, people wouldn't say it. You know, like thou.

>>15862225
What's the primary function for a language? In my opinion, it's to communicate information. So if the language changes in such a way as to make it considerably more difficult to express concepts, then it's loosing functionality, thus, it needs repair. That giant essay directly above you is me explaining why buzzwords make language less effective, if you're chronically bored and have nothing better to do, you should read it.
>>15862243
Words can be exist beyond the point where their utility is exhausted. The thou/you distinction was a result of England having peasantry who spoke a German derived language and royalty who spoke a Latin derived language. It held on for a long while because it was a shibboleth which connoted a person's social class, but ultimately, when it did fade away it's initial purpose was long forgotten. The same is true of most buzzwords: "Safe Space" is a prime example, it used to mean a physical location, a kind of adult nursery. After a few years, such places ceased to exist and the word just became a derogatory way to refer to a place where dissent was rare. Nowadays, the only people who use the word are British politicians; who use it to mean "a place free from government surveillance, a place where people can say as they please." Which is not only almost the exact opposite of what it previously meant, it's also a useless word, because in the normal course of things most locations should be assumed, by default, to be free from government surveillance.

>>15860225
>yikes

>>15860225
>and stuff like that
Typically said by people who use english as a second language. It is just retarded filler, and Im guilty of using that phrasing, which annoys me more.

>>15860225
A phrase I hate is the one said by moronic amerifart redd*tors who think they're making a point or saying something witty when they already have been btfo and thats 'I mean"

>>15860225
>y'all
A perfectly sensible contraction of "ye" and "all". Just try saying "ye all" outloud.

>>15862478
The "all" part is superfluous, the word "ye" is already a plural. It's "gather ye rosebuds, while ye may" not "gather ye all rosebuds, while ye all may."

>>15862511
"Ye" is already plural, but "ye all" puts emphasis on everyone rather than say only a fraction of the group.

>>15862511
>2511
>>15862611
>2611

fucking witchcraft

>>15860225
>stan
>unpack

>>15862611
That's fucking stupid. What do you think about saying "all y'alls?" Is that okay because it just puts further emphasis on "all" even though it's redundant as fuck? Or is that too niggerish to be correct?

>>15861037
>"Ye" is the English plural second person pronoun
There has not been a native english speaker in the history of the last one hundred years who has unironically said "ye" to address multiple people. It's not correct anymore. Even the plural "you" sounds weird to me (midwestern USA). Most people say "you guys" or something along those lines.

'Hubby' is one that makes me cringe every time

>>15860225
>Ewww what a creep!
>Bae
>Use of fuck or fucking every two words

>>15863044
>stan
what's that? like a faggy version of Satan?
>>15863315
It is indeed a disgusting word.

>>15860225
>I'M PEPE THE FROG AND I'M VERY POPULAR
>YOU MAY HAVE SEEN MY PICTURE POSTED FREQUENTLY ON THE INTERNET BOARDS
>I'M A CRUDELY DRAWN CARTOON FIGURE WITH NO DISCERNABLE RACE OR GENDER
>BUT LOOK HOW CUSTOMIZED MY EXPRESSION IS
>THESE ARE MY ELECTRONIC EMOTIONS THAT I DOWNLOADED FROM 4CHAN.COM AND REDDIT.EDU
>THEY HELP ME FIT IN
>I'M A REAL BOY
you are all schizo retards that have no identity in real life so you submit to a fake identity fed to you by your jewish masters as you brainlessly consume retarded internet content

>>15861423

>>15863372
sounds like you're projecting, maniac.

>>15863401
>I'M PEPE THE FROG
>WOW YOU ARE TRYING TO BE BETTER THAN ME, PEPE THE FROG?
>DON'T YOU KNOW HOW POPULAR I AM?
>EVERYONE WHO IS COOL ON THE INTERNET POSTS MY PICTURE
>WE ARE ALL PEPE THE FROG AND WE ARE VERY POPULAR
>HOW COULD YOU BE BETTER THAN US IF YOU AREN'T EVEN PEPE THE FROG
literally schizophrenic
they conflate their identity with a jewish cartoon just because they've seen it so many times in association with artificial stimulus

>>15863432
Have sex.

>>15863443
you are a counterfeit human
a completely retarded drone that is addicted to artificial stimulus
you can't sustain a single thought or emotion without being stimulated by memes or some other retarded form of media

kill yourself

>>15861417
it's their spin on comrade

>take

>>15860727
Yes. Fucking hate it

Y'all is an acceptable substitute for English's embarrassing lack of colloquial 2nd person plural.
However, only Americans from southern states may use it without cringe.

wonk

>>15860727
My brother who reads LessWrong religously always says "humans" instead of people. For a brief moment he started saying "folks" to counteract it, but he's right back to "humans." It drives me insane.

>>15861466
No, it's a very old word

>>15861436
I guess it would be more accurate to say that it's used by people who want to seem more down to earth, harmless, friendly and relatable, regardless of political affiliation.

>>15860225
>word starts with super
cringe.

>>15860249
It’s actually Ye but I like “youse” because Italian Americans are fun to impersonate

>>15861640
This isn’t policing words, that’s what the retards who use this mong-speak do with other words. This is having some standards, being made fun of for speaking like a retard isn’t oppression, you aren’t being forced to stop, just insulted so you see how cringe you are.

>>15863358
>stan
It's used on Twitter to denote a crazy fan of a celebrity, often one impersonating said celebrity online. It comes from an Eminem song called "Stan," where a deranged fan writes a series of letters to Mr. Mathers, culminating in the murder-suicide of his girlfriend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU9DzMhdeEo

>>15864132
holy redpilled

>>15861470
a moderate amount of pescriptivism is good. you dont have to go all fascist on it, but standardization is the bedrock of efficient communication. only polemicists either way cant see a middle ground.

>>15864104
I also forgot
>technophobe

SAY LUDDITE

>>15860225
The MOST grating word in modern American parlance is "super", when it's used as an intensifier. It's fucking everywhere now.

>super thirsty
>super excited
>super uncomfortable
>etc etc

Not only does it sound feminine and ghey, it also cheapens the intended emotion or action. unto which 'super' was unceremoniously imposed. I stay away from people who use super.

>>15860708
>>15861037
Is it common to hear elsewhere and by who? It's very common in Texas, at least outside of major cities.

>>15864285
It became zoomer slang a while ago. they learned it from twitter.

>implying

>>15860425
>>15861637
I'm guilty of "ayo" online but I never hear anyone unironically use the rest in person.

>>15864305
Twitterfags say it because niggers use it

>>15863119
>tfw don't think I have an accent but occasionally I let out a "you guyz" when addressing a group of people
yes I am from new york, no I will not stoop to the level of a libshit and say "ya'll"

>>15864211
this is why I say supes

>>15863119
I'll take "you guys" over nigger tier "y'all."

>>15864138
also stalker+fan

>>15864319
No shit sherlock

>>15864357
>It became zoomer slang a while ago. they learned it from twitter.
No shit sherlock.

>>15864361
No shit sherlock.

>>15860225
I hate penile slang. It should be banned.

>>15864361
>Is it common to hear elsewhere and by whom?
That is the question to which I was responding.

>>15864376
What like cock and balls? Or are you talking about wee wee and pee pee and schlong and stuff like that?

>>15864369
"No shit, Sherlock" is quite a humorous response. It's sarcastic in nature, and references the fictional detective "Sherlock Holmes", who was purportedly a brilliant detective. The phrase is used to emphasize that someone has stated a near obvious point (i.e. one which requires little detective work to deduce), and is awarding the person with sardonic, patronising praise. It is very similar to when you call someone who is a bit of a dullard "Einstein", since in both instances, you are praising someone's lack of ability in a condescending manner.

>>15860225
Those are some of the worst
people is not a long word. why can't they finish it

>at the end of the day

>>15864117
I have never conversed with a Pittsburgher, but I'm fond of the word "yinze". I look forward to hearing it for the first time.

>>15864426
No shit sherlock.

>>15864376
wiener, dick, cock and the like?

>>15864188
Luddite refers ultimately to a specific movement. i think that it is acceptable to substitute a generic word, whether or not 'technophobe' is a satisfactory alternative

>>15862197
>>15862375
You clearly know what you're talking about, unlike the termite you're arguing with. Where can I read about the history of the English language? Do you know of any works written in defense of prescriptivism?

>>15861933
Consider killing yourself.

>>15863982
What's your take on it?

>>15864332
kys

>>15864596
One of my least favorite phrases arising organically here!
Just say kill yourself
"consider" would be a cute, le sarcastic variation if it hadn't been used to death

>>15860225
whenever people cut out the t in a word, like mountain, and just use the back of their throat as a substitute
>mounTain
>mou//in

>>15864698
like curtain = curtn?

>>15864538
>Where can I read about the history of the English language?

I'm not very knowledgeable about that. All I know is that the original languages of England fell out of use after the Roman invasion in favour of Latin. Elements of German and Old French were added in the subsequent invasions. A lot of technical terms were also derived from Latin and Ancient Greek in later years. Everything I know about vocabulary and grammar comes from studying Latin and Greek in school, the syntax of the languages are so alien to English speakers that you have to learn a lot about grammar to understand them and the vocabulary is so familiar that you learn a lot about etymology. When I was at school we used "The Cambridge Latin Course" and the "Cambridge Reading Greek" series, if you're interested in learning.

>Do you know of any works written in defence of prescriptivism?

HP Lovecraft, who uses language masterfully, wrote this one:
https://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/essays/lc.aspx
It's been a while since I read it, but I recall approving of everything he said. George Orwell also wrote an interesting essay called "Politics and the English Language" but I can't say I agree with everything he wrote; because the essay criticises not only buzz words and phrases, but also lambastes overly poetic language.

>>15864607
bad take

>>15864426
Read that in his voice

Cringe!
Based!
Cringe!
Based!

>>15860225
Though.

>>15864990
Or its nigger variant
>tho

>>15861403
Finna immediately takes me out of whatever I'm reading to gawk at its existence.

I like all those except literally because it's overused

>>15860225
>bruuuuuuuuuuh
>fr fr
>skrrrrrrrr
>black ppl

>>15863372
sethe

>>15863470
mad bro?

>>15861423
you must be used to never being taken seriously, hence the naughty word drop

>>15864859
seethe cuck

>>15865770
redd*tor tourist angry
redd*tor tourist mad

All the non-Germanic ones in English. Tonguecleansing is the only true way for the afterhood.

>>15860243
Spbp

>>15864104
>superlative
>supercilious

>>15861653
>None of the above are legitimately popularized, it's all artificial usage
That's how words come into being in many or probably most languages. Some words in english are just coinages "artifically" introduced and used by authors like Thomas Browne which later became commom use. Something similar happened in spanish with Góngora and the introduction of latinisms which did not exist before in the language. And didn't something similar happen with latin and the introduction of greek vocabulary too? These people were not raised in an enviroment where they would have been led to acquiring that vocabulary, and yet those words are now completely okay. What you call "artifical usage" are just common ways in which languages acquire new vocabulary.
Something a bit more similar is how words in Lunfardo and Caló became common use in spanish, and in those cases, with time, those words ended up being completely accepted too.

>>15860727
>folks

Came here to post this.

>>15865928
It's unnatural, and it's fucking pathetic to observe. It makes me recoil when I see some fucking anglo retard drop a tabbarnak. Just like it makes me recoil when I see some faggy suburbanite say shit like finna go dab on my niggaz. It's fucking contrived, forced, unnatural and rodent-like behavior. I would never put an ounce of trust into someone who goes out of their way to use a turn of phrase that does not naturally belong in their vocabulary. I'd expect them to stab me in the back at the drop of a hat just for popularity's sake.

>>15865928
>with time, those words ended up being completely accepted too.
With this I mean not only accepted but naturally acquired and used by people. I have never seen a Pachucho in my life but words and expressions from Caló were very commonly used by me and my friends when we were younger.

>>15860225
>latinx

>>15865952
>naturally belong in their vocabulary.
That's the point you retard, that does not matter, that's how words come into being in languages. The way those words come into being in their vocabulary is much more natural than Góngora using latinisms in his poetry. It might seem forced to you now, but those words will most probably become a part of colloquial french and start to be naturally acquired by french speakers.

>>15865965
>colloquial french and start to be naturally acquired by french speakers.
English not french*

>>15865965
They ARE a part of joual french you mong. They don't belong in anyone else's vocabulary except for maybe Cajuns. If I heard some faggot lipped Parisian try to talk like a Québecois I'd tell him to stop using my fucking language. It's mine. I don't want some outsider trying to steal my fucking words and distort them. I understand that english is a bastard language full of stolen fucking words but that doesn't mean every other language should be reduced to this borderline pidgin nonsense.

>>15860225
i hate when people say "right?" after i say something they agree with. no correspondence to expand the conversation. where do they get that from? who started that?

>>15866009
I know right?

>>15865986
>They ARE a part of joual french you mong. They don't belong in anyone else's vocabulary except for maybe Cajuns.
But they will, that is literally how languages work, that is how expressions from Caló, used by Chicanos, came naturally into use by mexicans. If you are bothered by people taking words from other languages or dialects you might as well stop using any word in french which did not evolve naturally from latin. I would not be surprised many now commonly used words in french were also artificially introduced from latin or any other language as it happened in spanish too.

>>15860225
i despise the pronounciation of the word 'card'
makes me shiver

>>15866014
this enrages me. not as bad as a plain old fucking "right?" though. they say it with an extended fucking ring to it

>>15866026
Joual french hasn't evolved in hundreds of years. Just like Cajun french. If I went back in time and spoke with my great great great grandfather we'd be speaking with the same accent and using the same words. Just like a modern day Cajun from Acadia can talk to a modern day Cajun from Louisiana no problem. A Parisian, couldn't do this, because of the metropolitan a-la-mode behavior of needing to use ever changing chique terminology to fit in. That being said, you already have all the necessary matching words in English to translate without having to take words from another language. If english people started calling libraries bibliotecas out of nowhere for no fucking reason it would be contrived and pointless. There is no justification for this kind of behavior other than maybe attention seeking.

>>15860425
We get it, you hate black people

>>15866077
They sound like Jerry Seinfeld. Right?

>>15866089
i dont know ive never watched that shit and now i never will

OP finna gonna get dabbed on

>>15866103
George Costanza is based. Should have made the whole thing revolve around him.

>>15866081
I get your point but if vocabulary that comes from Joual starts to being used by Anglos even if it may now seem "artificially" acquired it will with time become naturally acquired by Anglos too, as it happened with Caló or Lunfardo in Spanish.
>That being said, you already have all the necessary matching words in English to translate without having to take words from another language.
Lmao that's not how languages work, language do not just chose which words to take in and which not. Even in cases where words for someting already exist in a language, it will sometimes happen that it will make new words for the same things or that it adopts words from other languages for those things. Those words adopted from other languages may seem at first contrived or forced (they normally seem like that at first) but they will eventually come to seem natural too.
>There is no justification for this kind of behavior other than maybe attention seeking.
There is no need for justifications. Góngora used in his poetry the word "Nocturno", then a latinism and not commonly used. Maybe he did it to seek attention, but it is now a extememy common used in Spanish. The same thing will probably happen with words from Joual and anglos, and it will probably happen in a much more natural manner.

>>15866113
maybe i was overtracting. dont mean to throw seinfeld out just like that. this actially calmed the brain hemorrhage i was about to have

>>15864698
you'd love the UK

>>15866147
>Lmao that's not how languages work, language do not just chose which words to take in and which not.
This is literally what they are doing. They are picking and choosing words from another vocabulary that they are not familiar with. It's fine to use words from other languages and mix and match if you're in an environment that suits it. We get plenty of bilinguals mixing and matching words, that's fine. I have a problem with people who use words that are totally foreign to them to posture and accessorize. Take umami for example. The proper word, in english, is savoury. The flavor they are trying to describe is savoury, but they go out of their way, in a totally vain call for attention, and use a Japanese word to describe it. They're probably even using it incorrectly, but they heard some other suburbanite use it and they found it to be a-la-mode, therefore they began using it as well, to try to be a-la-mode as well. It sticks out like a sore thumb in the middle of any sentence it is used in. It is a word from a language a whole continent/ocean away whose sentence structure functions totally differently. It is totally alien.

>>15865928
>These people were not raised in an enviroment where they would have been led to acquiring that vocabulary, and yet those words are now completely okay.
Yes they were. They spent their lives reading, and sometimes writing, in Greek and Latin. It's only natural that words from both would seep into their mother tongue.

Any books that wrote black slang well? I know DFW gets shit on for it all the time.

>>15865956
That one is infuriating. It isn't even pronouceable in Spanish

>>15866113
They did. It's called Curb Your Enthusiasm

>>15864714
yeah I hate that
>>15866188
I know that they do that and it enrages me greatly.

test

>plenipotentiary
>troglodyte

>PERIODTTT

>normalize

>>15864376
what about my peanus weanus? haha!

>exetera
That's not a real word, dear Anglo friends.

>>15864211
I agree, and to my dismay i've found myself using it that way

>>15860225
I hate when white teens use forced ebonics to sound cool and funny. (I care less when blacks speak their native patois.)

>She do be caked up bruh!
>Ayo I'm a faggit checkkk!
>fr fr homie, bet

>>15862197
If words are actually useful, they don’t get “pushed out”

>>15863372
>>I'M A REAL BOY
I laughed a bit, thank you anon.
You're probably touching some truth there. In this regard I'm glad I avoid using any kind of reaction image. It's the same shit as emojis isn't it? just more in the vein of internet autistim.
It's also an issue close to language itself.

>>15860225
How come OP seems to be annoyed of newspeak behaviors -and the related usage of limited vocabulary and grammar typology circumscribing identity, thinking and freewill of the individual- and at the same time uses a ready-made reaction image like Pepe the frog. It's grotesque to say the least.
Get fucked OP.

>>15860225
so idrc about y'all stupid ass opinion y'all ppl dumb ass virgin losers and im finna tryna get more pussy because yo asses leaving one of them economical gaps or whatever n shit and i need to seize the means of vagina cuz yo unmanly nerdy bitch asses too busy literally buried in books instead of mad pussy. yall prolly never seen one other than pixelated shit on a screen bitch ass

>>15863315
Das dat wifey doe

>>15864043
You should beat the shit out of him. See how “rational” he feels after that.

Thiccy

I want to torture and kill anyone who uses “rn”

>yo I'm straight vibin rn tho

>convo

>>15869328
would you do that rn tho?

>>15868976
based

>>15860225
I just realized finna is a bastardization if ‘fixing to’, all this time I thought it meant finally

>>15869507
lmao no it isn't you fucking retard it's a typo because f is next to g and i is next to o. You give these retards too much credit.

Why do black people always preface what they are about to say with “Nah”? Even when they aren’t responding in a contradictory way. Also, why do black people think that lying is the same as saying something untrue?
>Did she lie?
>No lies detected.
Are black people just stupid?

>>15869618
>Are black people just stupid?
Nah fr they are

>>15869116
"Ye" has been dropped from the popular lexicon, despite the fact that nobody has found a universal replacement for it. The average person judges the value of words by how often they are said, not their utility.

>>15864859
This. So much this. Upvoted.

>>15869623
Nah doe fr fr

>>15869618
Also why do black people use “but” and “though” redundantly?
>But why you mad tho?
Seriously, are black people simply less intelligent?

>>15860225
anon its okay to say you have niggerisms because these bastardizations are exclusively due to lazy niggers

>>15870103
the fact that attempts at teaching proper grammar to them at the elementary level are characterized as racist should be telling

>>15860225
so y'all are dumb, ppl trynna live their lives and you literally insult their vocabulary, y'all prolly elitist

>>15870173
Nice bait, faggot.

>>15866189
>They are picking and choosing words from another vocabulary that they are not familiar with.
You are still missing the point. Individual speakers can use any word they choose or not use any word they want. I mean that what cannot be done in a language is say "This word cannot be part of our language as it is from another language", it has been tried to be done in many languages (for example with words in spanish that came from french) but because speakers use those words they come to be accepted and common use in the language.
> proper word, in english, is savoury. The flavor they are trying to describe is savoury, but they go out of their way, in a totally vain call for attention, and use a Japanese word to describe it. They're probably even using it incorrectly
But none of this things matter. A word from a certain language can enter another language and change its meaning, its only natural it happens that way. Synonims exist, that is nothing new for a language. If I say Umami, and people understand what I mean with Umami then that is enough for the word to be a word in the language.
>It is a word from a language a whole continent/ocean away whose sentence structure functions totally differently. It is totally alien.
Do you think all the words that you use in your daily speech evolved naturally from latin? Do you really not realize how all languages have words that come from other languages? Maybe in Spanish or French it does not happen to the extent it happens in english, but it happens too and you just don't realize it.
>>15866216
Yeah I know what you mean but that is still how people acquire and use words like "finna" or shit like that. They probably read it being used in twitter and began using it too. And the way those authors implemented the words is not as "natural" as you may think. When Góngora used latinisms he knew those were latinisms and not words that were accepted in the language. That is literally one of the many reasons his poetry was not accepted until the XXth century, people were sperging out about his "artificial" latinized spanish the same way the other anon is sperging out about Joual vocabulary entering english. I'm sure other authors like Thomas Browne were conscious that those coinages they introduced or used were not words in the english language.

>>15866081
getting angry about linguistic changes is utterly fucking retarded. i'm sorry that black people influencing the popular lexicon bothers you but it hasn't resulted in any significant loss of meaning.
>you want to go to the store?
>you tryna go to the store?
these have the exact same meaning, i really hope you don't autisticly interrupt actual conversations to say you hate colloquialisms.

>>15870254
Didn't even mention blacks. Unless you think posh suburbanites is referring to blacks lol.

>>15870243
>You are still missing the point. Individual speakers can use any word they choose or not use any word they want.
Of course they can. They can also chose to spout out total gibberish. Doesn't mean I have to like, support, or even condone it.
> If I say Umami, and people understand what I mean with Umami then that is enough for the word to be a word in the language
The problem comes when the word replaces the proper term to the point where people forget the proper term. You're also avoiding the artificiality of it I pointed out by saying It sticks out like a sore thumb in the middle of any sentence it is used in. It is a word from a language a whole continent/ocean away whose sentence structure functions totally differently. It has no place there. It does not belong. In french we actually respect grammatical composition and sentence structure. It's not a literal grug language like english. Your sentence has to be formulated properly with the right tense or else you're speaking fucking gibberish and I can't understand you. It's actively destructive to the integrity of the language.
You keep bringing up the switch from latin but this is a total false equivalency. The change in english language over the past 100 years is totally insane an forced. No language has changed this much, this fast, naturally.

>>15860225
>>literally
It's not disgusting, it's just being misused by retards.

>>15870266
fuck i'm retarded responded to the wrong guy. but borrowed words aren't worth getting that spergy about. loan words are interesting and as a linguistics student i enjoy when the etymology of a word goes in an unexpected direction. the
>>15870350
>proper
>forced
>integrity of the language
these aren't actual linguistic categories. a word cannot be "forced" into the popular lexicon. a word cannot be "proper". taking issue with loan words is autistic. there is no "integrity" in any language. no language will ever develop into something incomprehensible, so maintaining purity has no point. you're acting as if loan words degrade the language in some way but purity has no intrinsic value. unami is a proper word and if it replaces savoury the english language won't be worse off.

>>15860243
And Cicero spoke the vulgarized version of Proto-Italic, itself a “butchering” of Proto-IndoEuropean. Languages change over time, and the people who refuse this fact are either faggots or old.

>>15861617
Ur high-key mad tho

Niggers really do be low IQ doe

>>15870498
>a word cannot be "forced" into the popular lexicon
>y'all, yikes, finna (literal typo), whole thread, etc.
When you walk up to someone who actually speaks english and start talking like this, you're speaking fucking gibberish. They will not understand you, and whatever message you are trying to get across will be lost.
>a word cannot be "proper"
Yes it can. This is another thing anglos can't wrap their heads around. I'd mentioned Joual a few posts back. Joual is quite literally "improper french", and Québecois regularly switch between that, and "proper french" depending on the environment. We still refer to individuals as "vous" which translates to "thou".
>there is no "integrity" in any language
Most languages have been nearly totally cohesive within the past thousand+ years.
>no language will ever develop into something incomprehensible
A 16th century englishman would never be able to understand american suburban english, let alone ebonic english.
>umami is a proper word and if it replaces savoury the english language won't be worse off.
A decade ago when these faggots started using umami, unprovoked, nobody had any fucking clue what they were saying and literally thought they were retards saying "oooh mami". There is a complete and total disconnect in communication.

>>15870605
>Most languages have been nearly totally cohesive within the past thousand+ years.
Another anon lmaoing@your life

>>15870605
I can safely say that you have no knowledge on even the basics of historical linguistics. Kill yourself.

I would pin my outrages on this doublespeak of internet acronyms, which seems to be expanding to consume all of language

>tfw, lol, lmao, btw, etc etc

>>15870648
>doublespeak
newspeak i mean

>>15870630
French, German, Literary Arabic, to say the least, have barely changed in hundreds of years and I could easily hold a conversation with a frenchman from 400 years ago. You anglos and americans could barely be understood by your 200 year old counterparts. Pathetic, and a total disrespect to your ancestors.

>>15860243
The based on this board is wearing thin, but occasionally you can find a source

>>15870648
>tfw
>mfw
>afk
>brb
>irl
>imo
>asap
>iirc
>AIDS
What's next?

any of the new vernacular that are just internet acronyms

>>15870605
i can't be assed to refute all your points because they're all incredibly retarded. fucking psued you have no actual knowledge of how languages work.

>>15870648
>expressing sentiment is bad
>stop liking things i don't like
bruh.

>>15870675
Just because a language has evolved quickly overtime in comparison to other languages doesn’t mean that it’s somehow worse. Why do you take pride in linguistic preservation? Why is speaking an evolved form of a language somehow a grave sin to my ancestors when they didn’t even speak English.

>>15870740
>i can't be assed to refute all your points because you are correct and i can't refute them at all
>i also can't be bothered to properly use capital letters or formulate my sentences properly
Yeah I'm the pseud here.

>>15870764
>unironically tries to use spelling mistakes in an argument
Holy shit dude, you’re an absolute retard.

>>15870760
>has evolved
It has degraded. The word is degraded, not evolved. I take pride in linguistic preservation because I belong to one of the only remaining cultures that actually bothers to preserve their cultural heritage.

>>15870787
>>11931854
Quite the place to be bragging about your illiteracy.

>>15870791
>it has degraded
In what way? Are you trying to say that English is somehow lacking in its ability to write down concepts? And you take pride in preservation because you were born into it? Sounds like cult-thinking, bud.

>>15870807
I wasn’t the guy you were complaint to about “muh captialization”. And don’t try to pretend that the usage of upper-case and lower-case letters is some big thing in written language that is imperative in reading. You read anon’s sentence just fine without them.

>>15870812
>Are you trying to say that English is somehow lacking in its ability to write down concepts?
Yes. The modern english speaker has less that half the vocabulary of his earlier contemporaries.
>wanting to preserve the heritage of your people is cultish
I'm not bothering with you anymore. It has become obvious you're only interesting in arguing and have nothing of value to add to any conversation.

>>15870841
/lit/ is a slow board newfriend. Maybe you'd be better off going back to >>>/b/

>>15870764
yes you are dumbfuck. i'm using internet vernacular and colloquialisms because i'm on 4chan. i call you a psued because you're a pretentious psudointellectual. you have no knowledge of linguistics. your formatting doesn't actually change the content of your posts.
>>15870791
making a value judgement on language is retarded. people will always understand each other because words are used to describe not dictate. a chair will still be a chair no matter how you describe it. unami, sadness, vexation, all will continue to exist when english morphs into something else. retard

>>15870841
Were complaining*

>>15870845
No no, you’re dodging my question. How is English lacking in writing down concepts? I didn’t ask if English has a lot of germanic vocabulary. Read the question again. I also never said that preservation in a language is somehow tied to the heritage of your “people” whatever that means. That’s also isn’t true. You’re a pseud who read one paper on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and now think you’re some linguistics expert.

>>15870857
>responds to anons post
>N-Noooo!! You’re a n-newfag
Okay

>>15870890
Needs a future tense.

>>15866085
>people

Lol.

>>15870868
I took Etymology. You have no idea what you're talking about. Pidgin is the future of english. It is indefensible, and omits most concepts.
>/lit/ is a slow board! Please take the time to read what others have written, and try to make thoughtful, well-written posts of your own.
If you can't bother properly formatting your posts before smearing your shit all over the board, don't bother posting at all.

This is maybe something too British and specific to grind anyone else’s gears, but once when asking my gf where we should go to get something to eat she said “let’s go McDonald’s”.
Not let’s go to. Just go.
I was 24 at the time and she was 20. Born in 93 and 97 respectively. I was astounded, but found out that is a pretty common thing now. In only four years there has been a clear shift to London nigger dialect that completely passed me by.

>>15863119

Some Irish people say "ye" I think

"You" in those situations tends to be relegated to "y'" in those situations:

"'Ave y' go' all those dogs, like eh"

Just use any niggerspeak around me and I will have to restrain myself pulling my pistol out of my waistband.

>>15870907
Actually, English is “degrading” into having a future tense. We all know that the word “will” is often used as a contraction to the subject of the object (he’ll, I’ll, etc.). How long do you think it’ll take for future English speakers to not realize that the ‘ll isn’t a contraction, but a full on future tense. I wouldn’t be surprised if, in the future, speakers will use ‘ll as a future tense on all sorts of knows, just as we do in spoken English. Languages don’t “devolve” they change to fit the needs of the people who speak them.

>>15870890
>you don't inherit language from your ancestors

>>15870923
Do you even know what a pidgin is? English is clearly a fully realized language and not a pidgin, and even if it ever did turn into a pidgin (which isn’t possible), that pidgin will eventually evolve into a creole, and that creole will have different dialects, and those dialects will evolve become entirely different languages.
>>15870935
Well, it’s pretty obvious that the “to” can be derived from context.

>>15870907
This but unironically. Also needs prefixes, hyphenated words and gendered words.

>>15870845
psued response. you can try to stem the tide of history with your pinky finger but i'd be right to call you a retard for it.

you're incredibly uneducated and it would be better if you drop the pretension of being intellectual. most people were illiterate until the 1900's. do you post on pol a lot? this cultural heritage idea is pushed a lot on pol, but it's silly and functionally equivalent to
>stop liking what i don't like

>>15870923
>pidgin is the future of english
on god i'll fistfight the retarded professor that told you that.

pidgin is the future of conversational english but conversational language will always be simple and less expressive than formal language. it doesn't signify the downfall of a language.

you're a fucking meme, you pretentious smelly frenchman

>>15870947
this man understands

>>15870953
When have I said this ever? Of course you inherit your native language from your parents. It’s just that the evolve slowly over time as the language is passed down, just as it always has. Those evolutions might be slower or quicker than others, but it still happens.

>>15870947
As it stands, 'll is still modal.

>>15870970
Hyphenation and infixation sure, gendered? Nah.

I think white liberals have destroyed the language more than anyone, I have never thought in my life that people would use the word 'chud' in a serious way. Southern words you can love or hate but and it's way better than anything reddit has done to the language.

>>15870979
Yeah, right now it does, but how long will that be a thing. In the future, people will just say that you can put an L sound at the end of a subject to indicate the future tense and they’ll think nothing of how it came about.

>>15870982
>stop liking what i don't like
>stop describing what i don't like

>>15870966
If you knew any French you'd understand Creole is like caveman French and would not derive from pidgin at all. Pidgin is the English equivalent to Creole, except it is somehow way less complex and cannot be used to cover any concepts.

>>15870982
the utter annihilation of the insult is probably the worst of their crimes
>chud
>pissbaby
>any combination of fangless profanities, ie. dickface, fuckhead, assbrain

>>15870973
I think this stems from people not knowing what the word “pidgin” actually means, and they think they can just throw it at a language and say “Hurrr, you’re a pidgin durrr”

>>15870992
>L sound at the end of a subject to indicate the future tense and they’ll think nothing of how it came about.
Mm, I feel like the problem with this, is that it conflicts with modality in general.

"He won't give'll" for instance, would be a bit of an issue.

>>15870996
Ok, this post is quite confusing. I assume what you mean by “creole” is the French creole of Louisiana, but I don’t know what you mean by “pidgin”. You’re treating these words as though they are single languages, when the term pidgin and creole are linguistic classifications.

>>15870648
>complains about acronyms
>uses etc
Stupid.

>>15869116
Imagine thinking that language is about utility. Jeremy Bentham might be the single worst thing to happen to Western philosophy in the past two hundred years.

>>15870973
>pidgin is the future of conversational english but conversational language will always be simple and less expressive than formal language.
Conversational language is the only future English has. English has no future in the realm of written word if things continue as they are.
>cultural heritage is silly
You're an actual moron who probably spends his days reading pop sci and jacking off to porn. You have nothing, and are nothing, and no one will remember you, or any of your exploits.

>>15871016
No no, I don’t think future English speakers would put the ‘ll at the end of the verb, but on the subject, like they do in Latin.

>>15871032
Ah right, so
"Cat'll sit on the mat"?

>>15871030
>the most spoken language in the world has no future in the realm of written word.
Ok.

>>15871050
Yeah pretty much. It’s really interesting how grammar can evolve from the pretty much nothing.

>>15870976
I'm sorry you feel the need to degrade the one thing your ancestors toiled for generations to hand down to you. This isn't sarcasm or snark, I legitimately feel bad for the hundreds of people who died in constant wars to keep their tongue alive just to end up handing it down to some apathetic hedonist who couldn't give less than a fuck about preserving it. You can fuck up your language all you want. Don't act like the preservation of mine is some attack against you.

>>15871061
I still have some worries about modality and copulas.

"Cat'll be sit on the mat"?
Would
"Cat'll am sit on the mat" count as grammatical?

"Cat'll should sit on the mat" feels weird, as it's essentially cat will should sit.

>>15871020
I'm sorry, I actually should have specified, I'm referring to Pidgin English, which is the most commonly discussed. If you don't want to look into it much, it's essentially Nigerian tribesman caveman English. When I mention Creole I'm referring to Haitian and Cajun Creole.

>>15871066
I think what you have failed to realize is that this is a thing that just happens. Languages change all the time, often times in subtle ways that we can’t really tell. Also I think it’s really funny that you’re talking to me about the change of language being a bad thing when you’ve been using contractions for this entire discussion, which was originally a colloquial thing. Stay mad.

>>15871053
>everyone who can speak English is literate and able to write

>>15860243
>formalized language, conventions etc don't matter because they were all derived from something else

stupid nigger.

>>15871020
the guy took one etymology course and thinks he's hot shit. that's why his posts are confusing and retarded.


>>15871030
>conversational english is the future
alright let me know when essays, legal documents, technical specs, and academia start using conversational english. formal language will always have a place as long as formal institutions exist.

your opinions are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of language.

language describes, it does not dictate. that's an easy alliteration even a retard /pol/ poster could remember.

>no one will remember you
same goes for you my friend. i read around 2-3 books a week, my most recent 3 were:
great expectations
the many colored coat
the grapes of wrath

other than that i exercise, ride my motorbike, and shitpost. i also like to format my posts in a way that pisses off spergs.

>languages change over time
>therefore negrified 80 IQ English is just as valid as anything that came before it.

Amazing logic.

>>15871091
>this is a thing that just happens
Only to the totally apathetic. I have no problems with subtle changes. This discussion was never about subtle changes, but with total replacement of language over time. I'm not a native English speaker and couldn't care less about the English.

>>15871120
Beyond negrification, I wonder if it's time to revise the alphabet away from the roman system. An IPA alphabet would be more based.

>>15871091
I'm sorry Anon, but repeating "languages change!" is not only not an argument, but it also doesn't address the point being made by the guy you're arguing with.
His point isn't that languages should not change. His point is that the way English has changed in the past century has added to neither its eloquence nor its clarity. You can spout whatever nihilistic cliches you want about there being no objective values, but you will have neither addressed his claim nor stated anything meaningful by that.

>>15860225
>y'all
>finna/trynna
>ppl
>prolly
>so
>literally
isn't this just niggerspeak?

>>15871110
>alright let me know when essays, legal documents, technical specs, and academia start using conversational english. formal language will always have a place as long as formal institutions exist.
This only comes to prove how much of a disconnect there is when it comes to english. Ask the average english speaker to read a legal document, or academic study. It is incomprehensible to them.

>>15871082
Pidgins are the result of two cultures interacting with eachother that do not speak a common language. A good example of this is something called russanorsk, a pidgin developed by Russian and Norwegian traders that arose in the late 19th century out of a common need for communication during trade season. However, this trade season wasn’t year round, so neither Norwegian nor Russian felt the need to learn the other language. Thus, Russanorsk was made. I want you to realize that all pidgins are much much simpler than people think they are. Russanorsk only had around 100 total words in the language, so it obviously can’t be used for casual conversation. Creoles happen when pidgins eventually evolve in order to be able to communicate more abstract concepts. I highly doubt that the pidgin which you are referring to is used in casual conversation within Nigerian peoples, and if it was, it wouldn’t last long before it turned into a creole. People, for some reason, like to think that creoles are somehow inferior to “real” languages, but that’s just not true. They have their own vocabulary and grammar just like other languages.

>>15871110
>other than that i exercise, ride my motorbike, and shitpost. i also like to format my posts in a way that pisses off spergs.

>Hey Faggots,
My name is John, and I hate every single one of you. All of you are fat, retarded, no-lifes who spend every second of their day looking at stupid ass pictures. You are everything bad in the world. Honestly, have any of you ever gotten any pussy? I mean, I guess it’s fun making fun of people because of your own insecurities, but you all take to a whole new level. This is even worse than jerking off to pictures on facebook.
Don’t be a stranger. Just hit me with your best shot. I’m pretty much perfect. I was captain of the football team, and starter on my basketball team. What sports do you play, other than “jack off to naked drawn Japanese people”? I also get straight A’s, and have a banging hot girlfriend (She just blew me; Shit was SO cash). You are all faggots who should just kill yourselves. Thanks for listening.
Pic Related: It’s me and my bitch

>>15871098
So if a group of people is able to speak a language but not write it, it means it has no literary future? Well golly, that applies to literally every language that has ever existed.

>>15871126
>couldn’t care less about THE English
Well my oh my, that seems to be a pretty RADICAL change in how the grammar of English is SUPPOSED to be, fella. Are you trying to completely ANNIHILATE English with that UTTERLY DESTRUCTIVE MISTAKE?!?!11one

>>15860225
basically

>>15871182
>want you to realize that all pidgins are much much simpler than people think they are
That's what I've been saying. That is the entire point that I am making. People literally come immigrate into my country speaking 2 or 3 dozen words of english. The future of english is "take order please".

>>15871120
Why do you imply that AAVE is somehow dumber than the languages which came before it? It’s able to communicate concepts just as well as other languages.

>>15871225
It's not a mistake you fucking absolute moron. The English are a fucking race.

>>15871137
>i'm gonna go to the store
>i'm finna go to the store
>fucking chud
>fucking right wing moron

language describes it does not dictate. formal english has barely changed. conversational language will never be eloquent but it is concise and understandable, to argue otherwise is disingenuous. if you don't know what finna means you're either 80 years old or a genuine retard.

>>15871171
yes, and and in your venerated cultural history the average person would find a legal document or academic study incomprehensible. fucking psued, learn more before making broad sweeping claims about something you know jack shit about.

>>15871182
>They have their own vocabulary and grammar just like other languages.
So?
>People, for some reason, like to think that creoles are somehow inferior to “real” languages, but that’s just not true.
Can you not think of any good reason for someone to think that? The fact that the creole is the result not of centuries of development, with its own massive stock of vocabulary, imagery, and phrases, but of the inability of a group of people to assimilate a language as it is? Do you not think that it makes sense to regard English spoken by those who failed to learn the language properly as a sad imitation of the real thing?

>>15871211
If a group of people are on a dysgenic downturn, and no longer handing down written language to their descendants, the spoken language will most likely not become written. Abo language was never written.

>>15871258
>yes, and and in your venerated cultural history the average person would find a legal document or academic study incomprehensible
Incorrect.

>>15871258
>posts Dunning-Kruger
The first people to bring up the Dunning-Kruger phenomenon are always prime examples.

>>15870682
well said

>>15871134
The IPA is derived from the Roman alphabet. And even if English used the IPA as it’s writing system, you would have to decide which accent you want to use in order to represent English, which is tricky in and of itself because there are so many to choose from.
>>15871137
>repeating languages change isn’t an argument
If it refuted everything he’s saying, then I say it’s a pretty good argument. “Eloquence” is a term no one in serious linguistics circles use, and as the other anon has said before, language doesn’t have any intrinsic value that makes them “better” or “worse” than other languages.

>>15871234
Sure, the 1st generation immigrants might not have the best English, but their children most likely will.

>>15871247
Uhm, sweetie, yes it is. You used the definite article incorrectly in the sentence, so that means you are actively destroying the entirety of the language. Sorry that you just have an inferior mind, buddy :^)

>>15871298
>The IPA is derived from the Roman alphabet
It is, but it also has plenty of characters that aren't roman, but express sounds.
ch and sh are pretty useful
Vowels would be an amazing help for clarity on pronunciation

>you would have to decide which accent you want to use in order to represent English
Estuary/RP/some blend.

>>15871304
Not really. It's actually worse. Some of them don't speak either of the national languages and they stay in these cultural enclaves that prevent them from learning them.

>>15870350
>Of course they can. They can also chose to spout out total gibberish. Doesn't mean I have to like, support, or even condone it
That's the thing anon, what you want does not matter a bit, languages will continue to evolve, will continue to take words from other languages and make new words for new or old concepts. Vocabulary from Joual will inevitably enter English, people will use words from Joual and they will eventually become engrained and pass down "naturally" from person to person.
>The problem comes when the word replaces the proper term to the point where people forget the proper term.
I assure you many of the words you use in your day to day use are words that came to replace other words which served the same purpose. It happened in spanish and is impossible it did not happen in french.
>You're also avoiding the artificiality of it I pointed out by saying It sticks out like a sore thumb
I have said multiple times that with time those words will end up seeming natural in the language that adopted them too. As it happened with latinisms and gallicisms in spanish.
In spanish, in the past the word we used to say "Check out" was Revisar. Now, in most of America, it is much more common to say Checar o Chequear, thanks to loanword from english. Saying Checar will not seem unnatural to anyone. Saying Revisar will not seem so either. Both words just coexist, even if the new term is more popular. In the same way, we have had countless gallicisms enter the language, at first not accepted by idiots like you and with time totally accepted by everyone, not seeming unnatural to no one anymore. In french, in any language, this process of incorporation of words from other languages has happened too, you just dont realize it as they seem natural to you now.

>>15871312
Um, it's sweaty, not sweety, sweaty. Hate to break it to you hun.

>>15871276
>n-no, you’re just w-wrong!! I can just say “incorrect” and that’s just as good as providing an actual argument
Looking at your life.

>>15871321
Sorry, sweaty, but languages can change, so that means I can spell that word however I want to. It’s almost as if this is a lot to unpack.

>>15871258
>language describes it does not dictate.
Completely irrelevant. The fact that language as an object of study does not contain any values does not mean that we cannot bring our own values to bear upon language as an object of social policy. There is no reason to suppose that the mere fact that language will change in unpredictable ways if left on its own does not mean that we should attempt to control the course of its change. These are two completely different arguments.
>formal english has barely changed.
Define formal. The language of books and newspapers has definitely changed significantly over the course of the past century. There is a definite trend towards veneration of the spoken language and the excision of language that is distant from it in writing. I suspect that this is the result of commercialization and the growth of mass society, but that makes little difference.
>conversational language will never be eloquent but it is concise and understandable
The spoken language isn't concise in most cases. Compare,
"Well, uh, I'm not so sure about that, man,"
with
"I do not know."
>if you don't know what finna means you're either 80 years old or a genuine retard.
I haven't said anything about finna or any of the things you accuse me of. I'm fine with people speaking their own dialects among themselves, but I don't think we should confuse the written word with speech. I see no reason why one should be subordinated to the other. We can regulate the language of writing, and we can regulate the formal written language, without forcing people to give up their native modes of communication.

>>15871314
I don’t think the literacy rates of people’s are going down anytime soon. If anything, with the advent of the internet, literacy rates are soaring.

>>15871318
Ok, enough. This whole fucking thread all you've been saying is "languages change! languages change!". I'm telling you. Mine hasn't for hundreds of years, and will not, and no one from my culture will be convinced into having it otherwise. This guy >>15871137
got it right. I'm not going to let my language be changed, and I don't like it when some fucking outsider tries to weasel his way into using words from my language for fucking style points, and that's that.

>>15871298
>If it refuted everything he’s saying, then I say it’s a pretty good argument
But it refutes nothing.
>“Eloquence” is a term no one in serious linguistics circles use
This is irrelevant. Linguistics, much like the hard sciences, studies its objects without attempting to derive any form of value from them. Just as nuclear engineering cannot tell us what attitude to take to nuclear power, linguistics cannot tell us what attitude to take to our own language.
>and as the other anon has said before, language doesn’t have any intrinsic value that makes them “better” or “worse” than other languages.
This is not a proposition that you can prove. It is equally true that there is nothing intrinsic in language that makes one worse than another, that I will acknowledge. But my point is that, in the end, this is a question of values, and values cannot be derived from mere factual observation.

>>15871373
Another chart to prove my point.

>>15871345
Um, like, y'all finna get a source for that or what tho?

>>15871239

>>15869618
>>15870103

>>15871312
He used it correctly. "The English" is a perfectly correct way to refer to the English people.

>>15871379
For context, this is in regard to global illiteracy, which has halved from 1970

>>15871373
Yeah we're not really taking anybody from the green spots, and when we are, we aren't taking their best.

>>15871403
Dude, there is very little African immigration. Almost all immigration is from places like China and Mexico.

>>15871373
>>15871379
>Another chart to prove my point.
>charts prove points
Sorry to break it to you but statistics are totally meaningless and were rightly dismissed until fairly recently within the last century.

>>15871276
holy fuck you're stupid. have you ever read a legal document? at what exact point in history could the average man off the street make sense of one? despite what pol has told you the past was not a perfect paradise of ubermensch white men

i'm not going to continue to play chess chess with a pidgeon. i hope a couple anons read the actual linguist anon's posts >>15871182 so they can gain some knowledge.

>>15871374
okay smelly pretentious frenchman, i'm glad you have conceded and dropped the claim that languages can degrade or be objectively bad. i'm going to go read now. goodbye

>>15871374
If I could ask, what is your native language? Judging from this post here, I think it might be French. In which case, your language is a PRIME example of linguistic evolution over time.
>>15871377
>it refuted nothing
It refuted this idea that any change in a language is automatically bad, when it is in fact just as natural a phenomenon as the sun rising and birds singing.
>without attempting to derive any form of value from them
So you agree that languages can’t have objective value over another? I’m quite confused at what your argument is.

>>15871414
Where I live most immigrants are from Somalia and are part of some refugee program.

>>15871374
>Mine hasn't for hundreds of years, and will not, and no one from my culture will be convinced into having it otherwise
I can read El mio cid or Los milagros de nuestra señora, a text from the year 1200, with some effort and a dictionnary. Not very hard. I can read texts from the 1500s very easily, only having difficulty with certain vocabulary not used anymore. I can read the chronicle from Bernal Díaz del Castillo wrote almost 500 years ago with no difficulty. That does not mean my language has not changed. You are a retard if you don't think your language has changed. I take it you are from Québec. Your french probably has more english loanwords from english than my spanish from english. In the same way, other languages take words from your english too. The words you use also were weaseled from other languages, other languages will do the same with yours. Not that hard to understand, see?

>>15871421
>conceded and dropped the claim
I've conceded nothing you fucking absolute moron. I have reinforced the claim.
>i'm going to read now
No, you aren't.

>>15871387
Can you give me an example of AAVE using nah in that way? And “tho” is being used here as a conjunction similar to “however”. Languages don’t HAVE to make logical make 100% of the time. It’s a human invention, and to erre is to be human.

>>15871422
>It refuted this idea that any change in a language is automatically bad,
No one said that.
>So you agree that languages can’t have objective value over another?
There is no such thing as objective value, in the sense that value is not immanent in nature. All values are the product of human rationality. There is nothing wrong this.
>>15871424
Then you must live in Minnesota or something like that. Come to California and you'll see how things are.

>>15871446
>no you aren’t
Classical projection.

>>15871422
I'm not French, I'm Québecois, and our "proper" French has not changed for hundreds of years. Our Joual, or "improper French" has not changed much either, though it is a far cry from Parisian French. Québecois hold great disdain for Parisian French.

>>15871460
>no one said that
Tell that to >>15871374, who absolutely hates any change that will come and “destroy his language”

>>15871442
You know nothing about my language, or how much the integrity of our language is cherished by our people. The average english speaker could not read a 15th century text. To claim that this is a good thing is lunacy.

>>15871484
Proper French is a bastardization of old French, itself a butchering of gallo-romance, of western romance, of Vulgar Latin, of Classical Latin, of Proto italic, of Proto-Indoeuropean. Of course you’re language has changed.

>>15871464
You're staying here as long as you get more (You)s you fucking dopamine junkie. You have not read, and will not read in months.

>>15871507
Why is it a bad thing?

>>15871522
Once again, not the guy who you replied to. Get clowned on.
>>15871516
Your*

>>15871516
My language has not changed. It was derived from previous iterations, and has not been significantly altered in hundreds of years.

>>15871532
Still applies moron.

>>15871536
>my language has not changed
Okay, well, it HAS (and we have lots of proof of it as well), and will continue to change long after you stop speaking it.

>>15871525
>Why is it a bad thing?
>Why is the total loss of communications between generations a bad thing?
>Why is the inability to hand down information to later generations a bad thing?

>>15871546
Okay? Aren’t you the same guy that kept banging on me for not adding anything to the conversation? Now you’re saying “y-you’re not g-gonna read!” like some fool.

>>15871550
Yeah, well it fucking hasn't and you know nothing of my language or my people. The primary cornerstone of Qébecois culture is the preservation of culture and tradition. Our entire existence revolves around ensuring the preservation of our people, it's culture, and language. This will never be understood by anyone who is totally rootless like you.

>>15871556
You seem to imply that just because an average English speaker can’t read those fifteenth century papers that those papers cease to exist altogether, which is preposterous. We can still extract information from those papers and present it to the public so that they can be understood.

>>15871566
I'm actually the only poster on this thread retard.

>>15871576
>We can still extract information from those papers and present it to the public so that they can be understood.
Yeah nobody has, or will do that. ADHD and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

>>15871573
I know that French is a Romance language spoken primarily by the seeds of medieval francs during the medieval period. It was a language derived from Vulgar Latin, another language spoken primarily by the common people of the Roman Empire. You’re argument lies entirely on the “burden of proof” fallacy, where I can never refute anything you say due to you holding ALL OF THE KNOWLEDGE, which is ridiculous.

>>15871595
That just sounds like projection. Just because you wouldn’t want to do it doesn’t mean other people won’t either.

>>15871607
>I know that French is a Romance language spoken primarily by the seeds of medieval francs during the medieval period. It was a language derived from Vulgar Latin, another language spoken primarily by the common people of the Roman Empire
This is totally irrelevant to the fact that the current proper French spoken by Québecois hasn't changed since we got here.

>>15871580
It still doesn’t refute the fact that you have no arguments.

>>15871618
I want to, I got on archive all the time looking for the good stuff. You're lying to yourself if you think anyone in the mainstream has any interest in doing this.

>>15871631
>not an argument
How about you argue with my cock and balls you fucking homo.

>>15871628
You don’t think that your language changing in the past might be evidence that your language will change in the future? The Roman nobility had this same line of thinking, that latin will never change and remain a “pure” language forever. Still didn’t stop the common people of Rome From developing their own dialects of Vulgar Latin.

>>15871651
With pleasure *slurp slurp*
>>15871636
You don’t think that Tolkien, the guy who made one of the best translations of Beowulf and also the author of the most influential pieces of fantasy fiction, wasn’t a mainstream person in his time?

>>15871655
My language will not change in the future because my entire culture revolves around not changing at all. Again, only the rootless do not understand this. We have vulgar language, and even that hasn't changed much and most likely won't change any more than it has since the only major adaptation has been anglified swears and that happened hundreds of years ago.

>>15871457
Look at the comments to this YouTube video: https://youtu.be/fDEVm_fOBZM

The “tho” is redundant, though. Either say “But why are you mad?” or “Why are you mad though?”

You didn’t respond to my point about black people not understanding the difference between lying and saying something false. And then you go and make vague excuses.

>>15871669
>Tolkien
Tolkien's been dead for half a century. The future of translation is the likes of Emily Wilson, who only do it to distort and pollute the original vision.

>>15871687
If your culture revolves around not evolving to fit the modern age, then it is destined to fade into obscurity.
>we have vulgar language
Ok cool, you have just refuted your entire argument. With one clause, you have admitted that your unchanging culture changes. Bravo.

>>15871709
As I've already explained extensively, we have proper and improper language, two distinct dialects that are used depending on the environment, both of which have not changed in hundreds of years. You are grasping at nothing in a pathetic attempt at some snarky gotcha.

>>15871507
It does not matter how much you cherish the integrity of your language it has still changed.
>The average english speaker could not read a 15th century text
Lmao it is not that hard, I can do it and I'm not a crypto anglo like you québecois.

>>15871705
I suppose that they put tho even when the sentence contains “but” in the same way that the French use “ne” and “pas” to describe negation. I also didn’t refute your “lies and not true information” because I have no idea what you’re talking about.
>>15871706
You say that no one wants to translate archaic language to fit a modern audience, but get mad at Emily Wilson when she translates the odyssey in modern language. Loling at your entire argument.

>>15871756
Can't call it a proper translation if it doesn't portray the original correctly.

>>15871741
Yes, the improper language exists because it CHANGED from the “proper” language. You have been refuted.

>>15871750
>It does not matter how much you cherish the integrity of your language it has still changed.
Again, you are rootless and do not understand. The only people I have spoken to that understand the level to which my people will preserve their heritage are Pollocks and Afrikkaner.

>>15871768
I don’t understand. I’ve read both the Andrew Lang and the Emily Wilson translations, and both of them are of the exact same story, the same beats, the same characters, and the same events. You’re grasping at nothing in a pathetic attempt at some snarky gotcha :^)

>>15871756
Why are you “speaking on” (another thing that black people love to say) Ebonics when you don’t seem very familiar with the things black people say?

You’ve never heard
>But did he lie tho?
?

>>15871781
Once again, you claim to hold the burden of proof and say that we can never refute you. Also, Afrikaans formed from non-standard Dutch dialects. It is the definition of a changing language, just like Québecois French.

>>15871773
You are unable to understand the nuances of my language and are using it as an excuse. At the birth of my culture. Both this improper dialect and proper dialect existed. These two dialects are both used to this day, as they were back then. You know nothing and have only been working on assumption this whole time. Stick to subjects you're informed on.

>>15871794
I’m pretty sure that’s just an individuals misunderstanding of what lies and false information is.

>>15871824
Holy shit you sound like a Rick and Morty fan talking about the subtle nuances that normals people just can’t understand. It’s not that difficult. Calm down.

>>15871844
Normal people*
Anyways, I’ve been talking for far too long now. I’m gonna go study latin, and then play some call of duty zombies. Catch you on the flip.

>>15871814
It has literally not changed in hundreds of years. The English literally tried to end the use of my language by force. You will never understand the levels to which my people will go to preserve the integrity of our language. This entire discussion is going nowhere. Don't expect any more replies on my part.

>>15871844
>you sound like a Rick and Morty fan
back to plebbit retard

>>15864332
Totes mcgotes my guy

>>15871829
You know nothing about this subject then.