/lit/ - Literature

>>15806669
Not really. It’s at least not comparable to the Greeks.

>>15806669
There is perhaps enough but it would definitely not be comparable to the Greeks and it would just be Catholicism with a new skin

>>15806669
tag yourselves I'm a cave troll

>>15806669

>tfw Ent

At least our songs are badass

>>15806669
I wander where varg vikernes would be on this scale

>>15806669
Homer is the symbol of Western civilization and an immortal poet who has not been forgotten to this day. How can Tolkien be compared to Homer?

>>15807284

What if the better part of his literary corpus was the only one to survive some great calamity?

>>15807284
Current popularity.

>>15806669
Yes, a whole new brand of neopaganism stems from Tolkien.

>b-b-but he was a christian ;_;
Blow it out your ass!

>>15807431
Oh, another branch of neopaganism? Another diffuse belief created as a grounding for some primitive blood and soil cult, or some state/civilization/nature worshiping faith? What traditions do you have to boast of if the writings of Tolkien spark your neopagan revival? The fact that it's even a neo-paganism should make it embarrassing.

>>15807431
based vargposter

>>15807460
>Oh, another branch of neopaganism?
Yes.
>primitive blood and soil cult
Only to a rootless metrosexual low T mutt
>What traditions do you have to boast of if the writings of Tolkien spark your neopagan revival?
It's a type of society reading through the lens of LOTR.
>The fact that it's even a neo-paganism should make it embarrassing.
But it's not.

>>15807431
did youtube really have to ban him? I miss listening his insane rants at 3AM

>>15807511
>Only to a rootless metrosexual low T mutt
I believe in the importance of my ancestor's sacrifice for my country and its history. But I don't worship them, or put them above my God. Neither do I put the state or the emperor above or equal to God (thus subordinating God to the whims of some ruler). I'm not partial to giving human rulers more than their due, especially when they deify their boy-lovers.

>It's a type of society reading through the lens of LOTR
Explain this

>But it's not.
You can't help the shameless. You would know, arguing with me.

>>15806717
i think its different desu. i think the achievement of tolkeins world is that its very unique in itself. not explicitly pagan or christian, but something pretty novel.

>>15807544
>I miss listening his insane rants at 3AM
He's even crazier on twitter, he's a source of endless interpagan drama and fringe opinions. I love this guy!

>>15807553
>But I don't worship them, or put them above my God
Stop worshiping semitic desert demons!

>>15807553
>Explain this
I won't go into detail but it's a reading of the state of modern world where certain forces and characters are equated with those from LOTR especially in order to cover for some fringe positions Varg and his followers have.

The elves are our ancestors and our potential higher selves.
The orcs are hordes of baseless mutts and so on..

>>15807608
No, worship this mountain demon whose primary followers also don't match your own bloodline.

>>15807587
I won't follow him on twitter because I don't want him to ruin lord of the rings for me

>>15807662

>>15807683
it's not THAT bad

>>15807431
>but he was Christian
Yes, moreover he was a devout Catholic Anglo, and he explicitly talks about how LOTRs purpose was to revive the English mythos. If you think LOTR has anything to do with paganism your wrong. The same can be seen with CS Lewis and The Wind In The Willows, just because it has talking frogs and fauns that doesn't make it pagan. If anything you'd just be watering down paganism with anglophile stuff. I would say stick to your own shit nordfag, but you're probably a kvlt mutt who scours discogs and facebook for tasteless varg demo tapes.

>>15807743
i would definitely play a tolkein-themed 5e run with anons if someone was willing to dm or if the job could be shared

>>15807743
oh god it hurts

>>15807833
>and he explicitly talks about how LOTRs purpose was to revive the English mythos
>If you think LOTR has anything to do with paganism your wrong
Do you even read your own shit?

>>15807852
I can't dm but I'm in.

We have some wonderful background music for the occasion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUumNIU08jo

>>15807887
It's almost as if an english cultural revival doesn't inherently mean a radical biocentric take on the world. The British Isles have had some of the largest role in the spread of Christianity, calling the English mythos pagan overlooks almost all of it.

>>15807950
Tolkien's "land of Fairy" transcends the pagan vs christian dichotomy. It reaches far beyond, it springs from the cultural unconscious of Hyperborean people. We naturally understand his writings, it's almost instinctual. And this is his genius. CS Lewis doesn't come close because he was consciously trying to mimic the christian stories. Tolkien simply speaks of the eternal.

>>15807852
>Tolkien
>Dnd 5E
The One Ring is better for that purpose desu

>>15808007
>transcends the pagan vs christian dichotomy
Then why are you shilling neopaganism desu?

>>15808007
So then Tolkien's writings are neither pagan nor Christian in their crude religious sense, but something that reach out to our inner natures. An author that mimics pagan stories won't come close, and an author that mimics Christian stories won't come close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM4nWT1yN4Y

>>15808040
I'm not you brainlet.

>>15808047
>but something that reach out to our inner natures
They come close to perennial wisdom.
There are adequate Vedic and Gnostic interpretations of LOTR. See for yourself, you'd be surprised how much they make sense from their own point of view.

The symbology of LOTR is pagan. Tolkien just took the richness of Anglo-Saxon mythos and made a broad, perennial story out of this imagery. It is pagan in a true sense but it doesn't exclude christianity.

>>15808125
Alright then, keep your secrets

>>15806669
First I thought no, but if the Mormons were able to do it with a single retard's self-insert fanfic then it is entirely possible.

>>15807652
The orcs were elves too...

>>15807431
>>15807567

>>15808125
Are you not >>15807431
I'm here solely to argue against vargposting
>>15808226
Also this

>>15806669
I'm sure you can ground a philosphy and/or religion out of it, but that doesn't mean it would be good, and certainly nothing compared to Greek mythology and religion, why? Because ancient Greeks actually believed in it and their art and philosophy was influenced by this belief, whereas Tolkien followers are just larpers who want to twist his work to fit their world views.

>>15808243
>Also this
Catholic in a sense of preserving old European features, yes. But the whole spirit of the desert is completely absent in LOTR, except for the obvious dwarves speaking a semitic language thing.

>>15807587
damn bruh he thicc

>>15807431
Cope seethe dilate

>>15808458
Based Tolkien.

>>15806669
Greek religion is not grounded on Homer's work, you retard, it's the other way around. Tolkien is also grounded on preexisting myths and religion, so to begin with your premise is misguided.

>>15808282
kek nice mental gymnastics

>>15806717
It's like Finno-Catholicism with some old Norse ideas mixed in.

Tolkien work can't birth a philosophy or religion because Tolkien's work come from Traditional Catholicism

>>15808458
Looks like anon fled after being thoroughly BTFOd

>>15806669
Found a better version just out of boredom (only res and quality wise)

>>15806669
OP, hold up, did you think Homer invented the Trojan War and the Greek pantheon?

>>15806669
give it 500 years and we'll see

post some lotr related music.
for me it's eldamar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZxiRot5ApY

>>15809284
>Satanic black metal
>Lotr
Yikes

>>15809318
literally all black metal bands were started by lotr nerds

>>15809341
So? Black metal would disgust Tolkien

>>15809357
a lot of things I do would disgust tolkien

>>15807852
5E is absolute garbage

>>15808007
oh so its this scene but applied to christians and pagans.

>>15806669
Absolutely, but people give more credence to older stuff simply because it's older and therefore had more time to churn in human memory and affect things.
Tolkien's work is definitely on par with older mythos. It has had a HUGE impact on modern media despite it being released within the last 100 years.

>>15808913
All human concepts, including religion, are derivative. Seems like a pointless distinction to make

>>15808458
>make a book which has christian ideas deep inside
>the most desirable parts are pagan
>you are now a prophet founder for all sort of fantasy with all sorts of messages, but hardly any is christian

>>15808458
Based

>>15809402
It's supposed to be [literaly any group/person on the Lord's side] and [literally any group/person on the Lord's side]

>>15807059
Wherever Gandalf would fall.

Where is Tom Bombadil on this chart?

>omnipotent single deity that makes the world and intervenes in it
>even evil just plays into this deity's plans
>morality is about humility and abandoning fantasies of power and might

It's obviously not a 1:1 transplant of Catholicism though. The lack of original sin (though it was there in an early version) and its consequences (the incarnation, sacraments, organized religion etc) are the biggest departures.

>>15809690
Above.

>>15809733
>though it was there in an early version
What was the original apple-eating?

>>15810022
I would say the original sin was done by the elves.
it's the kinslaying in alqualonde

>>15809733
>>omnipotent single deity that makes the world and intervenes in it
eru never intervened in arda after it's creation
>>morality is about humility and abandoning fantasies of power and might
there is no moral message in lotr.
none. the good guys are good guys because they are descendant of eru's chosen people, the edain or the elves. there's nothing else to it

>>15809441
Yes, derivative from experiences. Unless it's just another conspiracy theory, and the religions are all made up by some guys who want to control us. However, when we make theories, you won't believe us.

>>15809453
Allude to specific details, or else you're just making it up. Besides, what is "pagan" in the books that is so desirable? Who's to say you aren't mistaking the Christian ideas for the pagan ideas, whatever those may be?

>>15808007
yes. the polemicist wont understand. you can see it in glimmers throughout history. the great men and poets dont just say what is right, but speak to an inner, universal truth. using the speech of yhwh and fortuna in the same breath. calling on an omnipotent divine being of infinite goodness, the absolute incarnate, and the embodiments of the particular domains of human and extra human affairs.

Are there Vanyar analogues in Christianity?

>>15810102
Most popular fantasy is a blend of paganism and Christianity but I'd unironically blame that on DnD over Tolkien

lib left is based

>>15808216
>elves once
ftfy

>>15807059
Probably Valar (that's where he'd put himself, knowing his massive ego) but maybe Vanyar or Finarfian. Although maybe he's closer to Hadorian.

>>15810343
he fits Hadorian but his ideology shifts between Avari and Hadorian. politically i mean.

>>15810363
That's true but I feel as though he can be quite authoritarian in some senses of the word.

>>15809733
>its consequences (the incarnation, sacraments, organized religion etc) are the biggest departures
It's set before Christ's birth

>>15810376
he is mostly authoritarian but his utopia and what he longs to is not auth. depend on the situation, he knows we can't go from this modern times to full tribal so one of his solution is villages scattered away from others with authoritarian methods to train the people for a more tribal life.

>>15806669
how do I find a cute entwife bros?

>>15810470
be a chad ent

>>15806669
anyone else find it interesting that in OP pic the dwarves are classified under Arda-Marred?

>>15809690
Tom seems like he should be on bottom left corner, he's the equivalent of Ungoliant, but on the Light side

>>15810612
tom is unlike any being in arda. he doesn't fit anywhere. he needs an axis of his own

>>15810660
>an axis of his own
no, that would be Eru.
Tom is the opposite of Ungoliant. He's independent, free, but he's good, not evil.
Just as Melkor can ally (but never control) Ungoliant, Tom can befriend the hobbits and elves, but isn't going to march off to Mordor to fight for them.

>>15810705
tom IS eru anon

>>15810739
That's heresy

>>15810660
Tom is simply someone from the different genre, so he does not fit on a meta level.

>>15809733
original sin is in the books though, in at least two ways.
1. Melkor infused his essence into Arda, imbuing everything physical with his evil. Which was why Elves, as they grow older, become less physical (hroa) and more spirit-being (fea). Valinor eventually was removed a spirit-dimension because it was the only place Melkor couldn't reach them, being the Lord of all Matter, essentially.
2. The first humans that reached Beleriand and spoke with the Elves there told legends about how they originally were much longer lived, but that Melkor had tricked them into human sacrifice and other abominations, and that Eru had punished them with shorter life-spans. (this was Peoples of Middle Earth, i think it was)

Are elves supposed to permanently die once the Arda will end?

>>15806669
no. But the philmarillion is.

>>15810064
Eru intervened 3 times. Once to give souls to the dwarves, another to help create Ents (presumably to give them souls or sentience), and the third time to yank Valinor out of Arda (and placing it in a spirit dimension outside of Ea) by turning Arda into a globe (and thereby causing Numenor to sink under the ocean)

>>15806669

Whoever made this, if you're in this thread, I want you to know that you've brought unironic joy to my life. The Silmarillion is a virtuoso love letter to Western mythemes and the fact you've taken the time to have made a myth-meme out of it... you're a good person. You understand the work better than I do and I appreciate your labor.

>>15807587
>>15807683
>>15807696

I think this is the first time I've ever seen a bitchute link posted and I'm happy to be the first.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/bWpSP3qMm4xI/

>>15810739
no, that's just fan-theory, and certainly isn't canon.
Plus, Tolkien already speculated (in the chapter Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth) and stated that Eru couldn't be in Arda or Ea because it would "break the universe". Like trying to squeeze too much flesh into jeans that no longer fit you.

Yes it's totally amazing that Tom is able to resist the Ring, but that's no reason to leap to the conclusion that he's Eru, when it specifically is said even in Silmarillion that Eru still abides in the Timeless Halls

>>15810792
not sure what happens to Elves after Melkor is finally destroyed in the armageddon battle. I remember that the Elves, as they age, become spiritual beings, which is when they take the boat to Valinor. (Elves of Middle Earth, i mean). It's stated that all the beings in Valinor shed their "Arda physicality" because it had been marred by Melkor.

>>15810827
Plot Twist:
Aule is actually Melkor.
Dwarves are actually Orcs.
Eru didn't just give sentience/souls to Dwarves, he gave them to Orcs.

>>15810827
should i read hobbit then lotr then silmarillion? what is your prefered order?

>>15810937
i read the hobbit then lotr. i think silmarillion should be last.

>>15810951
really? i can get that from a certain point of view. but does knowing the mythology beforehand give it all a sense of grandeur?

>>15810969
no, getting an intensive, perspectival view of the world whose mythos you're digesting is pretty essential. LotR lends grandeur to the Silmarillon, retrospectively.

>>15806669
no. lord of the rings is entertaining, it is not transcendental.

>>15811021
ok makes sense.

>>15807431
Good look at that fucking slackjawed pussy Varg, I could kill him in one strike LMAO.

>>15807852
>5e
Fat tranny detected. I'm not even a fa/tg/uy.

>>15809453
yep. tolkien would kill himself if he saw the state of pop culture consumption media today.

>>15810102
>Allude to specific details, or else you're just making it up.
You are an absolute moron. There's no denying that Middle-Earth was created by a Christian(-esque) God, but that World has a history not unlike our World, and yes paganism was a core faucet, again not unlike our own. Middle-Earth by the point of "Lord of the Rings" exists BEFORE Christianity was conceived. You are doing a great disservice to Tolkien by denying the pagan influences in Lord of the Rings when Tolkien was going out of his way to be as authentic as possible. He isn't fucking C.S. Lewis where everything has to be some sort of angel/Jesus allegory, he has a bit more tact than that when it comes to worldbuilding.
>Besides, what is "pagan" in the books that is so desirable?
Not explicitly "pagan" in the sense you're likely trying to argue, but it was always hugely popular among counterculture hippies, which isn't hard to see why with how pro-nature, anti-industrial, and anti-materialist it is. Lord of the Rings is a very platonic "peaceful" anarchy.

>>15811021
>>15811029

I'm >>15810827


And I endorse the other anon. Tolkien has essentially bookended my development as a reader (read my mother's 50th anniversary The Hobbit after seeing the Bass-Rankin version when I was like 8, read the Silmarillion at maybe 26 concurrently with Modem Man in Search of a Soul), and I think that Bilbo's tale works best as an introduction to the legendarium. The Silmarillion is like Beowulf as a Bible, so it'd be overwhelming to jump into initially.

I have no idea why Tolkien was so obsessed with Beowulf to be honest. It was nothing special.

>>15807431
>what is tolkiens failed quest

>>15807431
>I'm a neopagan that bases my philosophy on Tolkien
do thesr people even take themselves seriously lmao

>>15806669
Most of the religion of Lord of the Rings got scrubbed from the books because it was declared Pagan by the Catholics sadly.

>>15806669
it is called larping, and a lot of degenerates already larp tolkien.

>>15806669
It's called Catholicism, except you pretend that the first Catholics were elves. Lembas bread = Communion.

>>15810022
After waking up men started worshipping Morgoth and were made mortal as consequence.

>>15810822
Eru also made Gollum trip.

>>15810064
>there is no moral message in lotr.
>none. the good guys are good guys because they are descendant of eru's chosen people, the edain or the elves. there's nothing else to it

The people who vanquish Sauron are neither men nor elves and they do so precisely because they reject the Ring's temptations of power and wealth that we were shown time after time men and elves were able to fall to.

If it were a Varg-friendly story victory would have been achieved by men and elves ganging up and just genociding Mordor (and easterling men for good measure).

>>15808282
I assumed we were not talking about human cultures, but about the theology and metaphysics that defines Christian religion.

>>15811270
You are acting undeservedly angry in response to a simple call for further discourse.

>>15808007
My Palestinian/Muslim girlfriend's favourite book and movie series is the Lord of the Rings (and she's an extensive reader). How does your Hyperborean schizodream factor that in?

>>15808007

>>15810901
That's interesting, didn't know about that additional meta knowledge from Tolkein. Having just read tLotR for the first time, I was absolutely on-board with Tom=Eru. The Ring's power is in how it plays off of people's deep desires to rule over and express power over others. To a degree the Ring grants the power to do so, but the desire itself comes from within the wielder first and foremost, usually coming from their good-intentioned belief that only they know what is the right thing to do.
Sam values gardening and the beauty of nature, so the fantasy presented by the Ring is him commanding the world to turn everything into a garden. Not even the Ents want that; nature and people both have their places. Boromir and Lord Denethor believe that they need the power of the Ring to protect the world against Sauron. Despite expressing bitterness at folk like the Hobbits who live in safety from their sacrifices without even knowing who saves them, both characters remain steadfast in the belief that thanklessly protecting the realms is the right thing to do with the Ring. Saruman's fall to evil was still led by good intentions, no matter how misguided and forgotten they might have become. He kept knowledge and power to himself because he believed only he would make the right choices with those tools. Unlike Gandalf who guides and supports the mortal races onto the right path, never making their decisions for them, Saruman sought strictly to command and control everything. Frodo's final fall to the Ring comes from knowing its evils intimately. He is a martyr at heart, and believed only he should bear the burden; nobody else should be subject to such torment.
But Tom Bombadill, although he is master of land itself, makes it clear that he is not master of anything living. That includes men and hobbits, but also the animals, and even the trees and grass. His fundamental nature is what makes him immune to the Ring, not some indescribable fountain of power that overcomes the Ring's power through determination. But rather, the complete lack of desire to rule over other living things.
Which to me fits with the idea of that Christian God who bestowed us with free will, but it is not by any means definitive proof, unfortunately.

>>15814355
The Vikings built ships which reached North America in the 10th century, while there are still Africans who live in houses like those.

>>15814422
And? Arguably the richest person in all of history was a sub-saharan African who in the 14th century took his entire royal retinue through the Saharan Desert (a crossing that we still struggle with today), and on his way to Mecca across North Africa he gave out so much free gold that he single-handedly destabilized the economy of Egypt.
Yet there are still Europeans who live in poverty, without the excuse of being colonially exploited for a few centuries.

>>15814422
Yeah, yeah. Pagans discovered America. But what did they do next? Settle it? Use it for some sort of benefit? What is their legacy there? What cultures remain in America that inherit the Germanic ideal? Where are the monuments to this great deed?

>>15813518
>The people who vanquish Sauron are neither men nor elves and they do so precisely because they reject the Ring's temptations of power and wealth that we were shown time after time men and elves were able to fall to.
In the end frodo is overcame by temptation and refuses to throw the ring into the fire.
the ring is destroyed because gollum seizes it and falls to his death (this is a direct intervention by eru actually)
again there is no moral.

>If it were a Varg-friendly story victory would have been achieved by men and elves ganging up and just genociding Mordor (and easterling men for good measure).
this is literally what happened. orcs are described as irredeemable and men of gondor essentially did genocide them.

He was born into royalty and left zero lasting impact on the world. All that’s left of his “empire” is a few ugly buildings in Timbuktu. He owned thousands of slaves and his wealth was concentrated in gold, such a great man. We also have no actual measure of his wealth besides a few unreliable accounts. There were Roman, Chinese, Persian, Mongol, Indian, etc. empires that had leaders with far more power and wealth at their disposal. For example, Augustus Caesar‘s personal net included the entirety of Egypt. Ethiopia was never colonized for centuries yet is still a third-world nation. Most Europeans who live in “poverty” have the excuse of transitioning from Communist governments.

>>15814760
>In the end frodo is overcame by temptation and refuses to throw the ring into the fire.

Yes but he went farther than anyone ever went with the ring and that is explicitly attributed to his simple hobbit character. Eru just gave the final nudge. Without Frodo's virtue the quest would have failed.

>this is literally what happened.

Had the ring not been destroyed Sauron and orcs would have BTFO men.

>>15814741
>>15814741
They arrived in the 10th century, hundreds of years before anyone else from the Old World, and settled in modern-day Newfoundland. I imagine you understand that mass scale colonization would not only be difficult, but pointless without a reliable trade network. Regardless, they were the first to accomplish it just like the respectable Polynesians who managed to spread all over the Pacific with their great seafaring skills. William the Conqueror would invade and rule England shortly after as well.

>>15814476
He was born into royalty and left zero lasting impact on the world. All that’s left of his “empire” is a few ugly buildings in Timbuktu. He owned thousands of slaves and his wealth was concentrated in gold, such a great man. We also have no actual measure of his wealth besides a few unreliable accounts. There were Roman, Chinese, Persian, Mongol, Indian, etc. empires that had leaders with far more power and wealth at their disposal. For example, Augustus Caesar‘s personal net included the entirety of Egypt. Ethiopia was never colonized for centuries yet is still a third-world nation. Most Europeans who live in “poverty” have the excuse of transitioning from Communist governments.

>>15814241
muh ancedote look at me, me me me me me me me

>>15806669
no but hes fun and good

>>15807059
With Count Grishnack

>>15808282
>But the whole spirit of the desert is completely absent in LOTR
What the hell does this even supposed to mean? Catholicism, in its Philosophy, Culture, Tradition and Art, is fundamentally a product of Europe and European People.

Pagans have no idea of what Catholicism is, it's hilarious to see them label it as non-European

>>15814873
the ring supposedly amplifies the natural power of whoever wears it and tempts him with his desires. hobbits have almost no natural power in the traditional sense, and want nothing besides a house in the shire, a good meal after which they can get high on pipe weed.
so a hobbit is a perfect ringbearer, since the ring doesn't offer that much to him

>>15814873
>Had the ring not been destroyed Sauron and orcs would have BTFO men.
justifying genocide are we? #orclivesmatter you fascist

>>15806669
I'd swap the ents and the entwives, ents are about untamed nature and entwives are more about cultivation

>>15807431
there is nothing more cringe than neopagans, as they are typically danes, or dane wannabes

>>15806669
is "Doriathrim" their actual name? I seem to remember it being "Eglath"

you could prolly also combine some of the groups into one, freeing up space for other races.
e.g. combine Fingolfians Feanorians, Gondolindrim into Noldor.
Or Doriathrim, Falmari and Falathrim into Sindar.

creating room for Hobbits, or for Gondorians, Dunedain, Dwarves of Erebor/Iron Hills/Durin's Folk (to contrast with the other dwarves).

And Tom Bombadil would do nicely where Hounds of Orome currently is.

>>15815303
>Fingolfians Feanorians,
can't really combine those two. feanorians are in a class of their own

>>15815303
>is "Doriathrim" their actual name? I seem to remember it being "Eglath"
arent thingol's elves just called the sindar?

>>15814741
Leif Erikson was Christian

>>15815651
Sindar was the overarching name of all Teleri elves that followed Thingol, excluding Green Elves of Ossiriand and i think the elves of the coast under Cirdan.
I'm not sure if those were classified as Sindar, though i know they acknowledged Elwe as King.
there were Sindar Elves living in Nevrast that followed Turgon's folk to Gondolin.

Just seems odd to me that Hobbits, Gondor, Numenoreans, Durin's Folk never made it onto the list. I know space and symmetry is an issue, those should be on the list. Could even add some to other side to balance it out.

e.g. Black Numenoreans, Haradrim, Khand, Corsairs of Umbar, the 3 dwarf clans of eastern middle earth, the giant spiders of Mirkwood (and of Nan Dungortheb).

i still really like the idea of OP pic, just think it needs a little tweaking. Was very impressed too with the part about "Orc-shaped Maiar", that's some extremely obscure Tolkien lore that not many people know about.

>>15815437
yea, i guess i see your point. But what about the "Doriathrim" and the "Falmari". I know that Melian lived amongst the elves of Doriath, making them "greater" compared to their Laiquendi and Falathrim cousins, but the Falmari ACTUALLY LIVED IN VALINOR. They even migrated off Tol Eressea and moved to Valinor mainland (at Alqualonde). That alone should merit a switch between Doriathrim and Falmari.

And OP pic has Finarfians as its own category, yet there was a split in that group that isn't shown anywhere in pic. Finarfin stayed behind in Valinor (which merits them being on the far left-hand side of chart, underneath Vanyar.
Finrod and Orodreth should be a separate category (or grouped with Fingolfians, which would then mean that Gondolindrim doesn't need it's own category either, since it could be grouped with Fingolfians too). Even politically, Turgon was more inclined to help Fingolfin/Fingon than Thingol or Feanor's kids.

not sure on why fire drakes and cold drakes need separate categories, unless you were just going for symmetry.

Any way of adding the wizard king Tu to the list?
he was a maiar, originally following Mandos, he was the jail guard of Melkor when he a prisoner in Valinor. Tu eventually went to Cuivienen, after Melkor was freed, and ruled the Avari that remained there.

if symmetry is the main issue, there's other names you could add to balance out. Saruman, Witch King, Barrow Wights, the mysterious Maiar that lived deep in the earth, underneath Moria that were very briefly mentioned in the fight between Gandalf and Balrog.

Rhovanion princes (i.e. ancestors and genetic/cultural relations of Rohan) should definitely be added to list too.

anyone suggest re reading LOTR? is it better to re read the hobbit and lotr or start a new fantasy novel? i bought a fantasy novel called "malazan book of the fallen" it looks interesting.

>>15816862
When I was younger I would reread the trilogy + Hobbit every year. I only read the Silmarillion twice. But I found that other fantasy novels couldn't compare. Or maybe I just hadn't found a good fantasy novel. In any case, I would say that it's worth a reread every now and then

>>15816936
i only read Hobbit and LOTR once. its been a long time and sometimes i want to re read them. i think i will re read them before reading the Silmarillion.

>>15807833
Is 'the moomins' rich enough to ground a philosophy or religion, like Homer for the Greeks?

>>15806669
>flipping the colors but keeping the good guys on the left
What's up with that op?

>>15815948

The weaving of bloodlines into the children of Eärendil and Elwing is pure poetry.

>>15818493
Not OP, but it doesn't really matter does it? as the scale is not measuring 'left' or 'right' as with most political compasses, but the being light or dark. I know that usually the villains are on the left but eh.

>>15816936
I probably reread LotR and Silmarillion 10 or more times. Should do it again.

>>15819107
I definitely want to reread everything this summer, it's been a few years. But I've got a few books I need to read before I can do that

>>15806669
I sometimes think about how all Sauron really wanted was order and can really relate to that. Maybe it's my aspergers. Maybe I'm retarded.

>>15806669
Homer's works weren't rich enough to ground all of Greek religion and philosophy on their own, even if they exemplified it beautifully and were a significant part of that oral tradition.
Tolkien's works occupy a similarly large position in the modern mythos, but expecting them to be the ground for a philosophy is putting the cart before the horse.
>>15806717
>>15807284
This isn't a question of the quality of the works, but their place in the consciousness of the time and as ground for the understanding of the world that the people have. Both are quite influential in that regard, but Homer's works are much more separated from the era in which Greek philosophy was written.

>>15818493
Epic post. Here's your (You), my faggot friend, just as requested.

>>15806669
didn't know big bad spiders respected the nap

>>15809341
citation needed

>>15820852
I was there. I remember it.
Reincarnation.

>>15806686
>>15806717
The fuck is this retardation. Tolkien is extremely neoplatonic. Especially first two or three books of Silmarillion, hellenic as fuck.

>>15814476
Lots of European countries have been colonially exploited you fucktard. Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Hungary, Romania, Malta, Cyprus, Ireland: most of them had it worse than Africa.

>>15820830

You better believe it.

>>15806669
G-guys?

>In celebration of its 40th anniversary, this new edition features 18 stunning paintings from critically acclaimed Tolkien artists, Alan Lee, John Howe & Ted Nasmith, which reveal the three Ages of Middle-earth like never before.
It's going to be released this October.

>>15822437
Looks beautiful.

>>15806669
Tolkien fantasy has a lot of material to become a religion

>>15822437
Damn, I want that

>>15806669
>orc shaped maiar
What?

>>15822437
I'll buy it after seeing the paintings.

>>15822675
some of the orc lieutenants are actually maiar spirits

>>15816862
Read the Great Tales, I found them vastly superior, though I’ve reread LotR many times so maybe it’s just the freshness, but I found them to have more depth and emotion

>>15822719
>how do you do fellow orcs
prolly to control the orcs better, if they look like one of them.

>>15822703
>I'll buy it after seeing the paintings
Really? Lee, Nasmith and Howe in one book is wild. I don't think Howe even illustrated any book except the covers for HoMM (a sketch book doesn't count).

>>15822675

>>15822703
Bro, you can't go wrong with Lee, Howe, and Nasmith

>>15806669
Just look at Varg.

So... no.

>His guardian, Father Morgan, viewed Edith as the reason for Tolkien's having "muffed" his exams and considered it "altogether unfortunate"[43] that his surrogate son was romantically involved with an older, Protestant woman. He prohibited him from meeting, talking to, or even corresponding with her until he was 21. He obeyed this prohibition to the letter,[44] with one notable early exception, over which Father Morgan threatened to cut short his university career if he did not stop.[45]

Do you think Edith cucked Tolkien in these three years?

Was Shelob Tolkien's most erotic creation?

>>15825398

>>15825419
I'm not sure if I read the part with Shelob since I stopped like halfway through the third book. How was it sexual?

>>15825278
>Father Morgan - Thingol/Elrond
>Tolkien - Beren/Aragorn
>Edith - Luthien/Arwen
She probably didn't, because they were autistic Christians who believed in purity

No. But Conan is.

>>15825633

>>Hardly had Sam hidden the light of the star-glass when she came. A little way ahead and to his left he saw suddenly, issuing from a black hole of shadow under the cliff, the most loathly shape that he had ever beheld, horrible beyond the horror of an evil dream. Most like a spider she was, but huger than the great hunting beasts, and more terrible than they because of the evil purpose in her remorseless eyes. Those same eyes that he had thought daunted and defeated, there they were lit with a fell light again, clustering in her out-thrust head. Great horns she had, and behind her short stalk-like neck was her huge swollen body, a vast bloated bag, swaying and sagging between her legs; its great bulk was black, blotched with livid marks, but the belly underneath was pale and luminous and gave forth a stench. Her legs were bent, with great knobbed joints high above her back, and hairs that stuck out like steel spines, and at each leg’s end there was a claw.

Lusty

>>15809453
>>15811270
Tolkien and C.S. Lewis saw paganism and myths as a preparation for Christianity, containing truth but not being the whole truth, which was revealed later through Christ.

>>15825731
Oy vey, clearly the work of a misogynist male with a fetish for big black castrating bitches!

>>15807852
Anything past 2e is heresy

>>15806669
>balrog more evil than sauron

>>15825776
sauron occasionally repented and joined the valar, so that brings him closer to the light

>Some people have criticised the Ring as lacking religion. Tolkien denies this: “Of course God is in The Lord of the Rings. The period was pre-Christian, but it was a monotheistic world.”

>Monotheistic? Then who was the One God of Middle-earth?

>Tolkien was taken aback: “The one, of course! The book is about the world that God created – the actual world of this planet.”

Holy Based. Eru is literally Jehovah

>>15806669
No, for two reasons

Tolkien disliked allegory, whereas Homer and all that is specifically allegory

And Tolkien was one person, whereas the greeks were, as far as I can tell, not one person

>>15826130
One Anglo is worth 10 Greeks

>>15826273
And so the thousand jolly Brits plodded up the country and said "the sea, the sea innit"

>>15812545
>first Catholics
So the original Jews were elves?

>>15814741
>>15815708
Also, he was a Catholic.

>>15826830
A Catholic missionary

>>15806669
I don't think you could found a religion based on Tolkien's works in the 21st century but it's definitely a hell of a lot more compelling than Homer.

>>15807284
Tolkien's works are more compelling as literature and mythology. Homer is still more important historically, though.

>>15826273
One Anglo is worth the rest of the universe

>>15825066
Varg's musical projects are great, even if his worldview is a LARP of the highest calibre.

>>15827665
Based

>>15825731
literally nothing sexual

>>15806669

It honestly erchs me that though you claim to be a Resurrector of old and dead gods, you know aboslouty nothing about the society that worshiped them.
you are so utter caught up in the Abrahamic tradition that you literally cannot envision anything outside of its structures, Christians have the bible, Jews the Torah and Muslims the koran. All of which are said to contain the sum total of divine wisdom and to be direct communication from the Divinity were in is expounded all that men need to know to be righteous.

The pagan religions never had anything similar, they had rules and regulations, propheceys and oracals yes but they didnt have a single book which they attributed wholly to the divinity and nor did they declear any single book to have a monopoly on the reality/image of the divine.

Every hamlet,village,town and city had, if not their own unique gods(Abandinus,Ancasta,Andraste,Vinotonus,Setlocenia) and they worshiped them not because they were deserved of worship(as the Abrahmic tradition would have it) but because of the benefit received, they worshipped the streams because they drew their water, the worshipped thunder because it grew their crops, they worshipped their crops because they ate them. The old gods were almost all gods of utility they preformed a function and if they for-filled that function they were worshipped and sacrificed to and if they did not they were punished. Much in way some pray to saints(https://arturovasquez.wordpress.com/2008/07/28/on-punishing-the-saints/)) other gods were less utilitarian representing the timeless metaphysical truths, which all men may access such as wisdom, love, filial piety and so on which the gods expressed and above all their patron deity.

To the ancients these gods were mere personifications of these universal truths, with the fancy dross and gloss of rapes, rages and love affairs added later by middling poets and perfidious playwrights (see Cicero on the nature of the gods and Plato's dialogs) which in certain cases may have served an educational purpose( the Venus, mars and Vulcan affair comes to mind as one which teaches that a bimbo will always prefer a fit chad over a no lift salaryman so be careful)

The Iliad was never an anchor for the paganism as the bible it was merely seen as the ideal of greek culture and the greeks had no trouble worshipping gods that were not mentioned in the Iliad or narrating stories in direct contradiction to those set down by Homer, to stray from the idea of personified gods as homer presented was no heresy but a position held by many respectable persons.

>>15806669
>Is Tolkien rich enough to ground a religion
Wouldn't that just look like Roman Catholicism?

>>15823765
Don't get me wrong, I love their art but I don't want to pay for an edition with paintings that can be found on others books and/or artbooks. I'll buy it if literally all of them are new.

>>15827665
One Anglo is worth all the other Anglos and then some?

>>15814241
She will never understand LOTR the way I do

>>15807833
>If you think LOTR has anything to do with paganism your wrong
>your
hahah

>>15815072
>Catholicism, in its Philosophy, Culture, Tradition and Art, is fundamentally a product of Europe and European People.
The European part is part of our true soul. It is found in pagan culture.

The desert part is the OT and the interjudaic schism made by some rebellious rabbi Yeshua and his messenger Saul of Tarsus.

>>15825743
This is exactly where judeo-christianity fails. It's a poor attempt at historicizing of various myths.
People made myths about Jesus and his desert-dwelling people nonetheless.

>>15806669
The Iliad isn't compelling as a work of philosophy or religion. Today as in Classical Greece, it's primarily valued as a unique and beautiful artifact of earlier Greek culture.

>>15829669
All of them will be new.

>>15822313
>No mention of Poland and six million Poles who perished in second world war
O kurwa, to kolejny rozbiór!