/lit/ - Literature

Accurate, and applies to most bestsellers about race.
Why is this the only god damn genre in nonfiction? Can’t we talk about something else? Or do all those who got shitty useless degrees have nothing better to do.

>>15789299
>Newspeak
Fukken dropped

>>15789299
I haven't read it, unless your post is the thing in its entirety.
Your quote though, does at least make it seem pretty on-the-ball, insightful and articulate.

>>15789362
did Orwell hurt your Communist feelings?

>>15789299
>Ruth Frankenberg, a premier white scholar in the field of whiteness,
I'm still convinced this whole thing is an inside job by /pol/

>>15789362
*fart noises*

>>15789299
Who is Matt Taibbi anyway? I hope they're not some Conservative grifter or talking head

The rhetorical trickery in DiAngelo's book is so transparent that I can't believe anyone can fall for it. The entire concept is one big Kafka trap: if you get accused of displaying white fragility there is literally no way to respond. You calmly present a counter-argument? That's white fragility. You ignore the accusation? White fragility. You get angry? White fragility. The only acceptable response is to admit you indeed are suffering from white fragility and obediently embrace that particular "antiracist" ideology as penance for your sin of being white.

>>15789299
Tibby’s a fag.
DiAngelo is based and if you can’t tell from reading the book you might be retarded. Quit looking at texts for what they make themselves to be on the surface, or expose yourself as a moron.

>>15789472
Are you saying that DiAngelo's book is a work of satire? If that's the case, wouldn't Tibby's comments still apply?

>>15789600
He's saying that it's good because it explicitly calls for a white racial consciousness.

>>15789421
I read the book and yes this is pretty true . I did find a lot of her points to be accurate though, it’s just the solution is non existent and not needed.

“I realized from when I was little that it was better to be white”

“White people don’t want to live in poor neighborhoods, what they mean to say is “black” neighborhoods”

Like bitch I mean poor neighborhoods and yes there are probably more black people their but that’s based on reality.

70% of the book was not needed and the points she did make were based on things that literally cannot be changed.

All I got from that book is that I don’t have to be nervous about calling black people black. Other than that everything else I’ve been doing for the past 31 years is what I’ll continue to do.

>>15789745
I'm certainly not denying the existence of something that might very well be called "white fragility", i.e. a reactionary response certain white people have when their hegemonic position is being challenged. This exists—I've seen this manifest itself IRL—and we probably should have honest discussions about it.

What I do have a problem with is the fact that the arguments presented by DiAngelo can easily be weaponized as a rhetorical tool to silence anyone who disagrees with a particular way of approaching race relations, and I fear this will happen regardless of what DiAngelo's intentions are (I can't read her mind). Moreover, there's a condescending undertone that seems to assume the (white) reader is completely oblivious to race relations and she as the (white) author has not just the authority, but the divine duty to educate them on how to be a proper white person. There's something about moralistic woke white folks that really bugs me.

>living, breathing human beings with a working conscious mind actually take this quaint piece of wokenetics seriously
>mfw

>>15789472
Taibbi is fucking great. You are probably a Zoomer and weren't around for all the scorching hot shit he wrote around 2008/2009/2010 about the financial crisis.

>>15789374
If you can't talk about politics without referencing a fiction book, that's a problem.

>>15789855
>that might very well be called "white fragility", i.e. a reactionary response certain white people have when their hegemonic position is being challenged. This exists—I've seen this manifest itself IRL—and we probably should have honest discussions about it.
Why is this a bad thing? No shit a people of a nation will be mad when foreign influences try to disrupt their culture

>>15789610
I don't think this is good. It plays into their trap. There are ways of saying what you mean by white without them being able to control the definition. Their definition, btw, is to arbitrarily include a wide range of people and reduce them to a slur.

>>15789374
Orwell was a socialist anarchist, 1984 was about authority in general, not just Stalin

>>15789855
chapotranny

>>15790373
1984's pretty obviously a work of political commentary, written by someone with a lot of exposure to politics.

It's not like when some illiterate dweeb compares Trump to Voldemort

>>15790426
that's only applicable to immigrants, not black Americans.

>>15790484
*written by someone who wrote pulp shit about fucking natives in the jungle
ftfy

>>15790468
it seemed to draw the most inspiration from Soviet Russia, though

>>15790426
That is not what's happening

>>15790426
How do blacks count as foreign influence? White people brought them to America to enslave them.

>>15789299
>Frankenberg

>>15790501
He might be a Euro...In many Euro countries there's definitely a situation where indigenous cultures are put under pressure by foreign influences, and they happily adopt the same ideology if it suits their agenda. I live in the Netherlands and I've heard woketivists use the white fragility argument, despite the fact that non-whites have only been here for less than 3 generations and chose to come here out of their own volition, which IMO gives their criticism of the status quo much less credibility compared to black Americans who have been there for centuries and helped build the country.

Flavor of the month garbage that no one will care about sooner or later especially if some cuck dem gets in office again

>>15789299
>it banishes ambiguity, nuance, and feeling and structures itself around sterile word pairs,
Isn't this what trans people say about gender binaries? I agree, but consider that the anti-ambiguity being utilized by these authors may originally have been exactly what critics demanded. The right to use nuance, or even be honest, is a privilege, which I say because I value honesty greatly.

>>15789299
why do white people lap it up then?
huwhites are so fucking disgusting, no backbone, no anger, no fight, just submission

>>15790373
my friend.... have you read Marx? your idiot is showing

>>15790490
>>15790498
>>15790501
Not who you're responding to but this whole white fragility thing is being used pretty broadly by anyone who can conjure up a grievance with whitey to get ahead economically. Latinos generally benefit from the same diversity programs that blacks do and every week there's some upper class Asian academic screeing about white privilege. If we lived in a country that was still 9/10 white and 1/10 black maybe you'd have a point but that's not the situation.

>>15789421
Killing niggers would escape the trap

Matt Taibbi is based and one of the few people who actually practices journalism instead of simply calling themselves one.

>>15790492
Everyone whose opinion you've ever respected is a degenerate freak who has most likely personally fucked a goat one on more than one occasion, they write goat fucking fanfictions repeatedly and deserately flail their miniscule cocks to the thought of penetrating the stinky squishy musky asshole goat assholes, they're thinking that right now right this second can you feel it now

>>15789421
>If you ignore the accusation: white fragility
I disagree, I think that embracing his accusations and acting in that exact way, so as to make their ilk seethe, strike back at their own vulnerabilities, be controversial
If they accuse you and try to "cancel" you, they are only validating and propagating you

>>15789299
what the fuck happened to the world that matt fucking taibbi has turned into the sole voice of reason?

>>15791124
He got collectively cancelled by the MSM for defending Lee Fang (who was cancelled for sharing an interview where a black discussed how he thought black on black crime was a bigger issue) so he took the brakes off and has been on a warpath.

>>15791276
Where a black man guy*

>>15791452
Where a black man guy person*

>>15791484
Where a black man guy person human*

>>15790501
>White people brought them to America to enslave them
White people bought African slaves from other Africans in Africa and brought them to the US to continue their slavery, which was probably better for them than continuing living as slaves in Africa.

>>15790501
>>15791549
Actually, I think it was mostly jews who ran a lot of the slave trading companies, whites would buy african slaves off of the jews and the jews would buy the slaves from other africans who had conquered them. I'm not entirely sure what happened after the slave trade (from Africa) was banned in the United States though, I don't know that much about the breeding programs and auction houses.

>>15790568
No, they say that gender binaries are enforced by wicked people who want them to not have pleasures, privileges, and special treatment that they deserve. The banishment of ambiguity, nuance, and feeling are precisely what they want because all of these things get in the way of those pleasures, privileges, and special treatment. It's the commodification of sex, sexuality, and identity. It's a bright shiny box that tells you precisely what it is and what's in it, with absolutely zero room for ambiguity, nuance, and feeling.

>>15791549
Technically, White people bought them from Jews (slave sellers) who bought them from other Jews (slave transporters) who bought them from other Jews (slave shippers) who bought them from Africans (slave sellers) who bought them from a variable-length chain other Africans (slave transporters) who bought them from other Africans (slavers) who either acquired them via kidnapping or buying children from their parents.

The scene in Roots where the African dude is scooped up by White dudes in pith helms is fictional.

>>15791647
Whites voted with their wallet.
The free market was merely providing them with their desires. You can't blame the seller.
The customer is always wrong.

>>15789328
>Why is this the only god damn genre in nonfiction?
Because there is a whole cottage industry surrounding professional victimhood. It pays. And because it pays there is what I like to call "offensiveness creep" in which the set of what is considered offensive inflates. Under this scheme anything that can be remotely construed as offensive will be because that feeds into the outrage machine and yields profit. It's a high emotion, charged topic that drives clicks and page views.

These professional victims and the profiteers like Diangelo that they work with are the true criminals. What would this useless charlatan Diangelo do if racism were suddenly eliminated and the very notion of a racist thought or reaction extinguished? She would be out of a cushy job, which reminds me of Shirky's principle: institutions will seek to preserve the problem for which they are the solution.

Everything she and her ilk says can be summed up in the simple saying: don't be an asshole. There you go. Where is my book deal and professorship?

>>15790468
Hahaha. He was a Tory and his emphasis on personal freedom as an anarchist would put him squarely center right today.
Don’t pretend like communists don’t wish for control over others. Forcible redistribution is necessarily opposite liberty.

This is the book by that Jewess where she says that a woman intentionally gave herself a heart attack just to take attention away from the authoress, right?

>>15790577
the constant flood of blubbering woke apologetics built upon the single most retarded variation of the english language ever employed as of now, and turning half of academia slaves to it, is a bigger indictment of huwhytes than anything ever done during colonialism. white people are a disgrace.

>>15790577
>no fight
there was a fight lol, it was just lost. sneaky bankers>>white people I guess.

>>15791673
>"offensiveness creep"
Is this what how you refer to yourself?

>>15791647
Let's forget all the Dutch that made generational wealth out of rounding up black slaves...
all jews and blacks. not a single white person responsible.
try be honest otherwise you just look like a racist quack.

>>15791802
Did something I wrote offend you? How apt!

>>15791803
The Dutch were not responsible for shipping Blacks to the US, dumbfuck.

>>15791817
Are you seriously just ignoring the Congolese Free State? Jesus christ you racists are stupid.

>>15791817
I'm sure there were some Dutch selling slaves to American ships, or onto other traders.
Do you have an 100% accurate list of all slave traders with accurate genealogy of said traders? Do you flat out deny any involvement of the Dutch in the slave trade?
Why lie to yourself?

>>15791632
I wish we could go back to a time before everyone would just invert what their perceived enemies said and call it an "argument." It's all so fucking tiresome.

>>15789299
>Ruth Frankenberg, a premier white scholar
White?

>>15791824
the polcuck incels don't know history they just regurgitate greentext they saw some glownigger post
victims of psyops all of them just too retarded to ever see it and too much of a nigger ego to ever admit it

>>15791824
The Congolese Free State was started in 1885; slavery in the US ended in 1862 (technically, there were still a few holdouts for several months after, but given that you're arguing that the Dutch were solely responsible for slavery in the US, I think such nuance is beyond your capabilities).

>>15791827
You're the one denying Jewish involvement in the slave trade, not me. So, please produce the list of all slave traders demonstrating zero Jewish involvement.

>>15791828
I fail to see what you're talking about here. The post I made explaining what Trannies want is based on what Trannies say they want. If you're implying that my post is just the inversion of what anti-Trannies want, then you're wrong.

Why would you hold an opinion about something you don't know anything about? Just go over to /lgbt/ and see what they want.

>>15791839
You don't read books written for adults

>>15791863
I never denied such thing I said it was dishonest to say that no whites were involved
learn to read and don't contstruct strawman you fucking retarded racist fuck

>>15791850
>Dutch were solely
no one even remotely.implied this
is how you how argue? make things up?

>>15791876
Other anon says trans people say the gender binary flattens nuance, you respond saying that their demands do the same. This is how everyone "argues" these days. "I'm not racist, you're the REAL racist," or whatever else.

>>15791902
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I never denied White involvement, in my first post I very clearly said that Whites were involved. They were the ones who bought the slaves, which I stated in
>>15791647
>White people bought them

So, again, I reiterate: Given that you're arguing that the Jews had no involvement in the slave trade, and that it was done solely by the Dutch, please provide evidence to support your claim.

>>15791803
>rounding up black slaves...
Could you cite a source on this? I've never seen anything to indicate that any Europeans actually went out and captured Africans.

>>15791632
>No, they say that gender binaries are enforced by wicked people who want them to not have pleasures, privileges, and special treatment that they deserve.
Yeah and that this wickedness is enacted via eliminating nuance. Cutting out the middle step does not make you clever in any way and certainly not nuanced.

>It's a bright shiny box
As are the metaphors you keep chasing.

>>15791934
Because that's exactly what Trannies want. Go over to /lgbt/ and look at what they want.

Trannies will say literally anything to justify the continuation of their pleasures and privileges, and I mean exactly that. They don't care what they have to say, or do, to maintain these things that they want. Being anti-Trans is racist, it's Islamophobic, it flattens nuance, it introduces nuance, it doesn't matter as long as they get what they want.

>>15792006
Or maybe different people believe different things, but you paint them as a bulk other because you have a self centered worldview in which you are the victim always.

>>15791995
>trannies don't want to eliminate nuance and turn sexuality into sterile consumption, don't be silly
>btw you're not allowed to use metaphors anymore, they introduce too much nuance
you're not helping your case very much tbqh

>>15792019
Thank you for demonstrating my point.

>>15792023
Where did I cite your "nuance" as the cause for you metaphors failing? They fail because they aren't, as I described in the line above.

>>15792006
>pleasures and privileges
Which are?

>>15792031
What, that I think someone, somwhere, is the "real racist" in some way? Should I not hold this belief? Who might benefit from such lacking?

>>15792023
>turn sexuality into sterile consumption
Oh you're one of those, nevermind. Sorry for wasting my time.

>>15791985
I know the Dutch did also enslave free people, but most of the slaves were just bought from local Chieftans or (in the east indies) from the Arabs. The profit to be had was in actually transporting the slaves to plantations. Hence why we call it the "slave trade", not "the great enslavement".

Here's an analogy: if you see a man in a maze of mirrors, it means there is one somewhere inside.

>>15791824
Congo was Belgian, or specifically privately owned by their by their King.
Granted the Dutch did still ship slaves to America but mostly to Suriname.
The truth is you've been conned. Every pop-culture series and movie chooses Dutch slave traders (despite trading and enslaving much less than Americans, Brits, and French) because Dutch people are the smallest demographic. The big whigs at Hollywood than choose to make the smallest possible ethnicity their badguy, so their movie will sell better in Brittain and France.

>>15792055
Right, but the original claim was that the Dutch
>made generational wealth out of rounding up black slaves...
which, if we go by what the common American (Black or White) believes, is the obvious conclusion of what slavery entailed (an anon up thread cited Roots as an example of this), even though a cursory glance at the subject would reveal that Whites never actually captured the slaves at all, but rather Arabs or Blacks did (which is part of why Jews had a head start in supply slaves, as Sephardic Jewish slave traders already had connections within the Islamic slave trading community).

I, at least, have never seen anything indicating that Europeans DID go to Africa and abduct slaves themselves, so I was wondering if the anon in question had a source to back this up or if he was just citing the "common sense" myth.

Specifically, in the shipping of slaves to the Americas. As the Congolese Free State demonstrates, there were quite obviously many Dutchmen who were willing to go out and enslave people (I think it would be fair to call the Congolese Free State a form of slavery).

>>15792114
Again, Congo was Belgian.
I think it is fair to say that the Dutch government earned a lot of money through slave trade and slave labour. Dutch people saw some of that ofcourse but the Netherlands were prosperous long before the slavetrade.
I know for a fact that there were legal distinctions between bought slaves and enslaved freemen ("slaafgemaakten") which simultainously makes clear that the Dutch did enslave people but also that it wasn't the norm.

>>15792158
The claim was made that the Dutch made money by kidnapping Africans and enslaving them for usage in North America: Do you have a source backing up this claim, or not?

>>15791824
lol never go full retard m8

>>15792169
https://www.oneworld.nl/lezen/discriminatie/racisme/hoe-nederlandse-banken-aan-slavernij-verdienden/
You're not even going to read it.

>>15789299
Reminds me of this.
https://www.takimag.com/article/the_first_rule_of_white_club_steve_sailer/

>>15792210
There's nothing in that article about the Dutch kidnapping Africans to use them as slaves in North America, it's only about banks offering loans to slave plantations, and Dutch corporations offering insurance on slaves. It ends with the author demanding that Dutch companies with histories of involvement in the slave trade be forced to publicize that history.

So, again, you claimed that the Dutch kidnapped Africans to use them as slaves in North America: do you have a source for this?

>>15789299
>Ruth Frankenberg, a premier white scholar in the field of whiteness,
Kek
e
k

>>15789855
>a reactionary response certain white people have when their hegemonic position is being challenged.
Like what?
I mean it's not like "white people" are immortal beings that existed since the dawn of time and thus can now feel threatened when their "king-like" status is trying to be infringed upon.

>>15790992
Good thing I've never respected anyone's opinion and am forever mentally 15

>>15789855

Prove white fragility exists, distinctly different from what can be considered “defensiveness”

>>15791124
he's one of the extremely rare journalists that actually does their job

>>15791985
My Portuguese ancestor was one of the biggest slave traders in history --Antão Gonçalves. Prince Henrique gave us a coat of arms and hereditary nobility near Sagres for this. We blew the Arabs out of the water in terms of numbers and volumes for about a century and distributed throughout Portugal, the Netherlands, we even had a factory as far North as Riga.

Prince Henrique gave us rights to raid the coasts for slaves from Cape Bojador to Sao Jorge de Elmina in the 1450s. We are able to hold onto the monopoly until 1580? Sometime after the Iberian Union.

Most of the nigger problem in America is squarely our fault. I apologize for nothing becuase your kike Kissinger colour revolution'd us in 1974.

In fairness I don't know many English sources. This seems to track roughly with my own family's oral history though:

https://books.google.com/books?id=lmPFnzXU7o0C&pg=RA1-PA54&lpg=RA1-PA54&dq=Antao+Goncalves&source=bl&ots=henkGhkWtT&sig=ACfU3U1OL4vTqrb7AeQipKvk7_52YzXInA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjm1NDag7rqAhVrh-AKHROGBDkQ6AEwA3oECBQQAQ#v=onepage&q=Antao%20Goncalves&f=false

Does anyone have a PDF of this toilet paper book? I refuse to give this shlitter money.

>>15789389
He wrote about politics for Rolling Stone for many years

>>15793746
No doubt that was going on in portugal since that was the most Rome retaining part of Europe, and it was still practiced widely even in the European part, they even took Japanese as Slaves when they were trying to convert them to Catholicism.

Jews were also a HELLENIZED/Roman population and they even moved en masse to eastern Europe when they couldn't practice slavery in the west anymore.

>>15791606
It was Jews and Catholics in particular the Spanish who had slavery a long time during and after the reconquista. It's hard to reconcile slavery with the protestant religion. Slavery is really an inheritance from Rome why more pure foederati states like the Franks repudiated it.

>>15789421
Did you read the book?

Here is the answer to you so called Trap:

We can interrupt our white fragility and build our capacity to sustain cross racial honesty by being willing to tolerate the discomfort associated with an honest appraisal and discussion of internalized superiority and racial privilege.
We can challenged our own racial reality by acknowledging ourselves as as racial beings with a particular and limited perspective on race.
>>15789855
The author admits to her own white fragility and racist tendencies. Even mentions a time where she offended on of her coworkers and how she learned from it.

Her writing style is not the best. But she has great points and gets them across with ease.

>>15794020
Shut up faggot. You can escape your status as a cuck by not licking the boots of whoever screams dats raycis

>>15794041
Seems I triggered you
Go on....

>>15789855
>hegemony
>don't squeeze out 10+ children out of your wives pussy whenever you can
>live a relatively comfy and thriving life
>'oi u gotta redistribute that wealth white man ur time is over' we iz 100 billion now from that foreign aid you kept giving us

>>15794020
>by being willing to tolerate the discomfort associated with an honest appraisal and discussion of internalized superiority and racial privilege.

In simpler terms, put yourself at the mercy of radical progressives who have nothing but disdain for the color of your skin.

No thanks.

>>15794119
If you are white in the USA you have racist views and a limited knowledge on race. Racist thoughts and comments slip out unconsciously. It does not mean you are a bad person, just misinformed. Diangelo points out that white people view racism = bad, non-racist = good. But it falls on a spectrum.

>>15794020
How is the answer the author provides there different from the one in that post when it comes to the only valid response in this framework is accepting it is true and that you are afflicted by it?

It feels like the classic joke regarding mental illness where any denial is taken as proof of being mentally ill

>>15794059
Incoherent

>>15789421
Yes, but it seems like you missed the point of the book.

The point of reading "White Fragility" is not self-edification; it's to become adept with a particular sort of rhetorical trickery so that you can both assert membership in the group of people deploying this trickery, and deploy it yourself.

>>15794208
The original post suffers from the idea that our racism is something to be ashamed of. Something that is a sin. Now we can clearly see the sin of hate groups. But DiAngelo is really talking to the white majority who do not know how to handle their own racist beliefs and how to change that.
Yes we must accept that have white fragility and through that acceptance we can change it.

She does a beautiful job of outlining what racism is.

it is
Bias + Discrimination + institutional backing = Racism

No one is freed from bias. If you act a certain way or have certain thoughts based on bias you are being discriminatory. White people have the institutional backing in the US, which amounts to racism.

Defensiveness, silence, aggressiveness are signs of White Fragility.

We cannot fix but only become better.

>>15793389
You must be exceptionally successful. Right?

>>15791685
Good. Fuck liberty.
Keep complaining and the next step will be paying 6'4" men named Leslie to wait in bathrooms and make sure you fucks stop pissing on the rim.

>>15794267
R u white

>>15794267
So you do agree with that poster though in that it does create a Kafka trap where acceptance is the only answer and that you only disagree on the implications ?

Also with respect to that understanding of racism what does bias + discrimination without institutional backing become?

>>15794301
Yes

>>15794303
Then stop using 4chan nigga. im tryna reclaim this space and u aren't helping. don't fucking center urself and leave.

>>15794267
>Bias + Discrimination + institutional backing
Although that framework is bullshit, you would agree that in accordance with it affirmative action is racist?

>>15794302
bias and discrimination are just that.
Black people can have biases against white people. They can discriminate against white people. But they do no have legal, economic, and social backing for it to become racist.

I was not clear in my last post. There is not a kafka trap (love that term). I suppose you can view it as a trap. But to me I am liberated in this acceptance. Through accepting my own white fragility I am given tools to recognize my own biases. I can have those discussions about race. I can become an ally. I can change.
If there is any trap it is continuing to be defensive, silent, aggressive when my own racism comes out. This continues the cycle of racism.

>>15791606
this is meme history. Plenty of Catholics traded slaves. My family, nary a trace of converso blood did so since the 15th century.
>>15791647
where do murifats learn this shit?

>>15794360
Affirmative action is not racist.

Affirmative action was created because of the institutional backing that discriminated against people of color.

Also affirmative action is dead. No company follows through with it anymore.

>>15794372
>ut they do no have legal, economic, and social backing for it to become racist.
It is literally only legal to discriminate against whites and asians in the US. They are the only people who can openly do that to.

>>15794372
>Through accepting my own white fragility I am given tools to recognize my own biases. I can have those discussions about race. I can become an ally. I can change.
this is called submission. you accept being told what to do and think, and as a result you won't be persecuted

>>15794423
That is not true. I suggest you read about systemic racism in the US. Our society caters to White people only. More importantly read white fragility. It is quick and easy to read. And even if you disagree you can form educated counter-arguements.

>>15794420
https://edsource.org/2020/state-senate-action-allows-california-voters-to-decide-on-affirmative-action/634455
The state Senate on Wednesday voted 30-10 to approve a November ballot measure that would revoke the long-controversial Proposition 209. Born in a more politically conservative era, that state constitutional amendment was approved by state voters in 1996 and banned any consideration of race or ethnicity in admissions decisions at the University of California, the California State University and other public entities.

Proponents of the upcoming ballot measure — now called Assembly Constitutional Amendment 5 — think that the recent wave of activism for racial justice and an electorate that is more racially diverse than two decades ago will give it a good shot at winning a majority of California voters. However, opponents are promising a strong campaign to defeat the proposal on the grounds that it would usher in reverse-discrimination, particularly against some Asian American applicants at the University of California, where those students are now enrolled at rates double their share of the state’s overall population.

>>15794438
the average SAT scores of blacks and latinos who are accepted into universities are far lower than those for whites and asians. This is due to affirmative action.

>>15794423
this is such anglo faggotry. As America browns and becomes more Catholic, your sola scriptura "muh law" will become increasingly nebulous, congruous, and irrelevant.

In Portugal we have a phrase called "law of the Suebi" and "law of the latifundia". As Rome collapsed, we were forced to choose between the legal predilections of the German animal or the petty tyranny of Italian aristocrat. Most chose the aristocrat. I suspect the American "right" will choose to lick the boots of the capitalist neo-latifundia owner soon, and then the fag globohomo kike civilization will be gone forever as you become instrumentalized peasants. Protestants deserve nothing less. Praise Christ!

>>15794372
I get you now though it feels weird not being able to say that white Zimbabweans can be racists or that racial discrimination amoung American minorities isn’t racism.

Why don’t you believe it is a Kafka trap? I mean I get that you don’t view it negatively but how does it not become a trap?

Is there anyway for a white American to refute or even contest having white fragility without that being considered defensiveness and thus a complete proof - and hence not a Kafka trap?

>>15794460
This is a strange cope but your problem in Europe is Muslims anyway

>>15794428
Is 'submission' so bad?
But I want to help People of color in the US. I want to see the US live up to it's basic Ideas, freedom and equality for all.
As a white man I expect to be 'persecuted'. It's okay. It will help me to grow and become a better ally.

Your language is so intense
how about
changing perspective instead of submission
and
showing blindspots in my thinking instead of persecuted

Also are you an island? Do you have your own thoughts and ideas?

>>15794492
>As a white man I expect to be 'persecuted'. It's okay. It will help me to grow and become a better ally.
Jesus christ imagine being an american woman

>>15794492
I am literally on an island; Madeira.

>>15794492
you are afraid and so you can't even think clearly and will accept submitting and grovelling, that's fine, it's probably even the rational thing for you to do depending on your circumstances.

>>15794492
This really does make it seem like a very Christian religious experiance and the equivalent of being born again in the face of original sin. Though I guess that would make sense given America’s religious roots

>>15794513
What am I afraid of? Please enlighten me.

>>15794457
The SAT's are a biased test. They have no validity in predicting ones educational success. College should not consider them.

>>15794471
I was wrong. You are right it is a Kafka trap. Sorry For dragging you on.

>>15794439
This is interesting. Now I think we can have a good debate here.
I for one believe that legislative action should be taken so universities can make admissions easier for people of color.

>>15794561
Interesting you make this comparison. I am not religious by any means. But yes this book is life-changing for me.

>>15794581
>I for one believe that legislative action should be taken so universities can make admissions easier for people of color.
right that's affirmative action lol
>What am I afraid of? Please enlighten me.
You're afraid of being labeled racist, or having white fragility, or whatever. This is completely normal,the consequences for being labeled that are life-ruining, and the bar for getting the label keeps dropping.

It also feels good to think of yourself as sinful, and to absolve yourself of sins by repenting. This native religious disposition, carried down partly by Christian cultural traditions even in the secular world, compounds with the fear of being ostracized for racism, and makes a potent psychological straitjacket.

>>15790426
that's not happening but western countries are destabilizing and destroying other countries

>>15794600
Let me clarify
I am racist
And I have white fragility always.
I do not believe in sin. Even when I was a christian I never believed in sin.
Being racist and having white fragility doesn't make me a good or bad person. It just is.

>>15794581
No worries anon, good to see we are on the same page

>>15794620
>I am racist
>And I have white fragility always.
This is an exact analogue for how sin works in the psychology of Christianity. You always will have it, but you can just hope to fight against it, do as best you can. I mean it's obvious dude.

And you surely have to realize that it would ruin your life to be branded racist, so you have a massive incentive to not be branded racist, to such a degree that you probably can't even think racist thoughts, the idea scares you and you stop being able to think clearly.

Honestly again I understand why you're like this, and it is probably your best bet. Just get off 4chan, all that will happen here is that you may be disillusioned, which will hurt you.

>>15794636
How would my life be ruined if I was branded a racist?
I do have racist thoughts. It's okay. Thoughts are just thoughts ya know?

What would someone totally opposite from my fear and thinking look like to you?

>>15794267
>Defensiveness, silence, aggressiveness are signs of White Fragility.

This is absurdist, cult-indoctrination logic.
>agree, or you're a witch

>>15794658
>What would someone totally opposite from my fear and thinking look like to you?
a neonazi. A less dramatic example would be someone just saying 'i dont think white privilege exists, black lives matter is a terrorist group.' Basically anything that contradicts the current progressive doctrine about race.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/
>The Vampires’ Castle specialises in propagating guilt. It is driven by a priest’s desire to excommunicate and condemn, an academic-pedant’s desire to be the first to be seen to spot a mistake, and a hipster’s desire to be one of the in-crowd. The danger in attacking the Vampires’ Castle is that it can look as if – and it will do everything it can to reinforce this thought – that one is also attacking the struggles against racism, sexism, heterosexism. But, far from being the only legitimate expression of such struggles, the Vampires’ Castle is best understood as a bourgeois-liberal perversion and appropriation of the energy of these movements. The Vampires’ Castle was born the moment when the struggle not to be defined by identitarian categories became the quest to have ‘identities’ recognised by a bourgeois big Other.
also stop replying to the troll you lollipops

>>15794673
What are they afraid of?

>>15789299
As usual he's completely right. I don't feel I the need to add anything.

>>15794590
That’s the interesting thing you can have religious behaviour without anything divine involved - something which we are best in politics.

sin is just like racism, it’s this intractable part of who we are which makes us fall far short of what is good.

Any rejection of our fallen nature or belief that we can resolve it ourselves is a demonstration of the pride and arrogance which is at the heart of sin and just further proves how we suffer from it, just like any denial of racism shows racism - after all it’s a sign of racial privilege to be able to deny or ignore it.

Fortunately there is a way forward through surrendering to that truth and living the rest of our lives being constantly conscious of it and working with the guidance of a higher authority to help keep it under control.

I’m guess you felt a huge feeling of relief and even euphoria at the realisation that you no longer have to hide or be tormented by this dark side of you. To the point where it feels important to share this good news so that other people can experience what you did

>>15794670
No one is saying you're a witch. No one is saying this is the one and only way. It's a perspective on racism that may help change. No one is out to get you my pretty.

THIS is your new PMC canon. Say something nice about her.

>>15794684
Being fired and unemployable, going to jail, getting mobbed. The weak version is just ostracizing, but that weak version is very powerful too.

>>15794673
The opposite of a modern leftist is just a democrat who believes in human rights and human dignity.

This should horrify you.

Chapo Trap unironically had excellent and specific criticisms of it. Essentially, woke liberals feel bad about the racism problem in their country and instead of actually expending any energy outward against the system, they just read one of these stupid fucking books telling them how ignorant they are and self flagellate to pay for their sins (which is obviously much easier than the former).

They literally just consume a RACISM BAD product like this book or stream To Kill A Mockingbird in order to feel that they've done their part and be over with it. And the fact that this was written by a white woman is just icing on the cake

>>15794693
Interesting how deep religion can run even after we reject it lol. I was raised a methodist.

Remember Racism does not equal bad. It's a spectrum.

And I wouldn't say I was tormented by my racist thoughts. I was unaware of them. This book gave me the language to understand my thoughts are racist. And it's okay.

>just like any denial of racism shows racism - after all it’s a sign of racial privilege to be able to deny or ignore it.
This is a beautiful quote. This goes into color blind racism. Something covered in the book.

I wanted to converse with this board because I feel that many on /lit/ debate about books without reading them. Even more so with a book about racism. I wanted to provided some honest insight into the book.

>>15789299
>Ruth Frankenberg, a premier white
How is anyone still falling for this?

>>15794706
Sounds like what black people are afraid of on a daily basis. Different sides of the same coin eh?

>>15794727
Diangelo points out racism is not polar it is a spectrum. But I agree. It is not enough to read a book. But subconsciously who wants to disrupt a system that caters to them?

>>15794727
That doesn't seem like much of a criticism of the book, just about the average audience member.

>>15794780
>Sounds like what black people are afraid of on a daily basis. Different sides of the same coin eh?
No black people are not afraid of going to jail or being unemployable for racism. Not at all. They actually get praised for it, they can basically get a degree in racism against whites at Harvard.

If you mean they're afraid of going to jail in general, then yes, that's because they commit a lot of crime.

>>15794795
Interesting insight into the black perspective.

>>15791672
How is slave labor and state backed monopoly free market exactly?

>>15794747
Well as you would know from your new beliefs how hard it is to divorce onset of their cultural roots even when you want to. Methodists for all their modern calmness had a very intense origin and beginning which was based on triggering mass public revivals of Christian belief.

I think in this context you mean being racist doesn’t make you an evil and worthless person. I get that it’s a spectrum that can never be abolished but there is no desireable level of racism and any amount of racism diminishes a persons moral standing. It’s also why it’s the most pressing issue and second greatest tool of ostracism. Look at the current election A president or presidential candidate saying the n word is literally more dangerous to their campaign than sexually abusing women or indeed saying any other word. Trump can say anything except for that word and still do well.

Also it’s interested you find that quote of mine beautiful. The religious version of this logic is something that is very painful and upsetting for non believers

my god this board is fucking garbage, there's actually people defending this book, not even the chapofags could have stooped so low

>>15794727
Are Chapo self-aware their audience consuming their podcast product are doing the same thing for compliance in perpetuating surplus labour and class busting through diversity?

>>15789421
Yes but this conditionality would be the same as if what she were saying was true. When the dilemma you are expressing also happens to be a dilemma that comes with truth, it isn't a reason to believe something false. It isn't an issue that discriminates between truth and falsity. A truth (after sufficient deduction or whatever you like) will also not be deniable (or at least not through valid, sure means).

More importantly I think you're overestimating the layer you're on. The trap is not "deny me and you prove my claim that people deny me," in that tautological way. What you're probably worried about is "I'm being called fragile by those who also ask me to be less masculine," in a more comonsensically contradictory way. But those ideas aren't as related as you think in the first place.

>>15794842
John Wesley was controversial to say the least. His sermons would bring listeners to the climax of fear and terror and then console you with god's grace and the promise of heaven.

You are right about racism. There really is no desirable level. But Diangelo presents a case that good people can be racist. My take away from the book was that I cannot get my racist beliefs in my lifetime. But through accepting those beliefs I can work against them.

Although I am a non-believer some religious logic has merit and beauty. Something that cannot be found in any other discipline.

>>15794148
>>15794148
Darkies in the USA also have racist views. Everything in that country is racist, and the nigger screaming at chinese people on the subway isn't an exception because he's black. Why is it only white people who are chastised for being racist? Why is it that even when someone minds their own business they are "racist" simply for existing? Why do these people act like it's pure projection when someone doesn't want to 'admit' being racist, but they themselves constantly use accusations of racism to ruin peoples lives and ostracize them?

Use your common sense fag boy

>>15789299
>Ruth Frankenberg
>-berg

EVERY FUCKING TIME

As for DiAngelo, Italians are just Jews who are bad at math.

>>15794954
See
>>15794267
>>15794372

>>15794913
I agree regarding religious logic, though the trouble is that it often brings in the more dangerous parts of it like fantatacism, dogmatism and intolerance.

If racism is a very bad thing and this very bad thing is an intrinsic part of white people it becomes far easier to justify committing acts of theft and violence against them, after all white people by dint of their permanent racism are worse people by definition

>>15794965
you're a bitch, and you'll be made explicitly a bitch either by people you think you're supposed to prostrate to, or people you think are evil

>>15794984
People of color already know that white people are inherently racist. They deal with racism everyday. And there is no grand looting or acts of violence against white people. In fact it is just the opposite. People of color are raped and robbed without a care from our justice system. People of color want justice on a systemic level.

I think white people are scared of a black uprising of sorts. But this will not happen. It simply cannot happen in the US. They just want equality.

>>15795036
>It simply cannot happen in the US. They just want equality.
It also can't happen because they are outnumbered and outgunned. Any attempt from them would end with the men exterminated and the women raped en masse. Everybody knows this.

>>15795022
see
>>15794055

>>15789375
Pol has had a hand in stoking the fire. When it initially started Joe Public did not see the insanity that these SJW policies held. They flooded Twitter with bots and as soon as the tiniest injustice reared its head they called for action. They showed the movements absurdity to the world.

This has to be bait.

>>15795071
kek and these tards keep going
have another bump OP

>>15795036
My point in that post wasnt that POC are going to genocide white Americans or that POC want this or that. It was just to demonstrate the darker aspects of religious thinking that can also come.

Do you disagree with me that when there is a belief set which holds that a person has morally negative traits by virtue of their race it is easier to justify violence and theft against this "other"?

As an side though

>People of color already know that white people are inherently racist
This isnt completely correct they know that white people have bias and are discriminatory but the current and redefined understanding of racism is something that is new and gaining traction. MLK type thinking is far from dead amoung POC.

>>15795106
Sorry I misunderstood.

Point one
I believe there are some people that hold that belief set. It is clear in US law enforcement.

Point Two
I agree with you. I got carried away.
But I will say that there are POC know that white people have bias and can be discriminatory, and they live in a country that systemically oppresses them. And despite that they have not carried out grand acts of violence or theft against white people.

>>15795158
>And despite that they have not carried out grand acts of violence or theft against white people.
Why do you keep neglecting to include the fact that they would lose horrible if they tried? I'm pretty sure that's the biggest factor to them.

>>15795158
Regarding point one do you agree with the logic and not just that it exists?

>point 2
Understandable it’s 4chan we get carried away. Still it’s worth remembering that white people being intrinsically racist is a genuinely very modern idea (if it were a person it wouldnt be old enough to buy a drink ) so it wouldn’t be suprising if it doesn’t have such a history

>>15795188
I didn't respond because you have a shallow view of this complex situation.

But tell me how a violent black uprising would play out?

>>15789299
they are so obsessed with being victimized, enslaved and brutalized they construct their lexicon around it lmao
is this freudian

>>15795220
they'd get murdered in like a month if the cops didnt protect them

>>15795219
Personally I do not agree with the logic. Because to me race is a social construct. All this time of talking about white people I strictly meant white people in the US (sorry). I believe KKK members have morally negative traits ( a lot of people do). However I would never justify violence or theft against them..

>>15795235
>they'd get murdered in like a month if the cops didnt protect them

So they would get murdered by the US military unless US law enforcement protects them?

>>15795251
they'd get murdered by the white civilian men with guns. that's why the Democrats are so keen on gun control

>>15795220
>But tell me how a violent black uprising would play out?
It wouldn't. I'm agreeing with you on the impossibility of Black revolt in the US, I disagree with the idea that the reason why it won't happen is just because of them preferring equality to revolution, it's that and the fact that they wouldn't win a fight against the US.

>>15795240
Race being a social construct isn’t really a factor in the question I was asking there.

The question is whether it is easier for people to justify acts of violence and theft towards people when they have a belief set which hold that based on race (regardless of whether it is a social construct or a new or old idea) some people have traits which make them morally inferior.

>>15795266
How would the US government intervene?

>>15795272
You think that Black US citizens would not win a fight against who in the US?

>>15795300
The US government.

>>15795295
It is a factor
Because that means moral traits are not bound by race. So I cannot justify violence or theft against someone based on race.

>>15795305
Okay so Black people decide to violently revolt against the US Government. And they are fighting for equal rights. They are attacking a government that:
1. Has white people that share the same views as them

2. Has POC that share the same views as them.

So what happens to the US government?
How does the US military react knowing they have POC enlisted too?

Then what?

>>15795312
Again I am not asking about your personal beliefs I am asking whether you think on average a person who believes that certain races have negative moral traits due to that race will have an easier time justifying acts of violence towards that race than someone who doesn’t hold that belief.

Do you really think this question can it be answered as race is a social construct - bearing in mind that you don’t have any trouble using other social constructs like morality and violence

>>15795385
I agree that can exist

>>15794876
Wow, you really smoked them there, faggot.

>>15795417
Again you didn't answer either of the questions in that post. I didn't ask "can this situation exist"

If you dont want want to answer those questions just say so and Ill leave you be.

>>15795456
Sorry for stringing you along
I struggle with the 'on average' part of your question

I do not think it is easy for person who believes that certain races have negative moral traits due to that race will have an easier time justifying acts of violence towards that race.

Two Reasons
From a US perspective

Average people do not believe that violence should be committed because of moral lacking or negativity.

Despite prejudice and bias we are a largely religious nation who believes we are all gods children.

On contructs am curious what you mean by violence or morals now.

>>15795525
>I do not think it is easy for person who believes that certain races have negative moral traits due to that race will have an easier time justifying acts of violence towards that race.
Thanks for answering. Its a position which I find hard to believe you hold. I mean the consequence of this is that we shouldn't apply any special effort or focus on people who espouse and believe that black people are morally inferior due to their race, given they are just as likely to be violent to POC as people who don't believe in this.

>On contructs am curious what you mean by violence or morals now.
Because neither of them exist independent of human beliefs and interaction. Its also why they are so controversial.

How can we understand violence beyond being simply change without introducing our own subjective beliefs. Likewise with morality try as we might its not something which has an objective existence - you either need to make arbitrary value judgements or you need God to give you a list.

>>15794420
Affirmative action has (had):
>Bias
Active discernment between peoples
>Discrimination
Different outcomes for different people on the basis of this bias
>Institutional backing
It is (was) an institutionalized practice supported by these same, often powerful and influential, institutions. Most medical schools still practice lower standards and preferential selection for URMs.

Your own criteria affirm that it is a racist practice, but as expected, you fail to apply your own ideology consistently. This is why no one takes your kind seriously.

>>15795615
How do you propose we focus on people who believe that POC are morally inferior?

I think that the 'average' person cannot justify violence on another person.

I think those people are further down the spectrum of racism. Closer to the hate groups.

I believe that culture plays a large part in constructs the constructs of morality and violence.

>>15795618
in order to correct itself the government must pass legislation to make sure people do the right thing. I suggest you research systemic racism in the US to gain a more educated perspective.

>>15790373
Did you seriously come onto a message board about literature to criticize people for referencing literature?

>>15795678
>How do you propose we focus on people who believe that POC are morally inferior?
By looking at their published and stated views.

>I think that the 'average' person cannot justify violence on another person.
Of course and I agree but when it comes to people who are more likely to want to do that it will be those who believe in genetic moral inferiority.

>I believe that culture plays a large part in constructs the constructs of morality and violence.
I agree entirely.

>>15795678
>the right thing(tm)
>systemic racism
>a more educated perspective

>>15795036
The USA without Blacks would be like Sweden (before Muslims.) A Black ethno-state within continental America would be like Jamaica: sky high murder rates, a semi-functional mulatto overclass keeping society functioning, everyone baked.

>>15795432
Podcast consumer for surplus labour.

>>15795678
>in order to correct itself the government must pass legislation to make sure people do the right thing.
So you concede that it is racist, but suggest that is "necessary." Laughable, all this accomplishes is perpetuating negative stereotypes of minorities, fomenting academic and professional mismatches that are detrimental to all involved, and further highlighting the very racial distinctions we claim to want to move beyond. As with everything else you people latch on to, class-based solutions would be vastly better in every sense, but of course you can't self-congratulate as much for such suggestions as those.

>>15795762
>The USA without Blacks would be like Sweden (before Muslims.)
Never.

>>15795768
I think you misread my post.
The US system caters to white people. It caters to white people on the legal, economical, and social level. In order to correct this, I believe legislation must be passed. I will admit this could be wrong. But it is my humble opinion. How do you propose that we give POC equal chances?

>>15795798
There are no legal structures which "cater to whites," and there haven't been for decades. If anything, the US system massively advantages wealth to such an extent that the poor cannot even get fair legal representation. Blacks are disproportionately impoverished and thus disproportionately affected by the economically-rigged system. Thus, efforts to increase fairness in the system and to elevate the lower class will disproportionately benefit blacks, helping to make amends for past ills while not further emphasizing race or pretending wealthy blacks are worse off than white trailer-park-dwellers.

>>15795798
>give POC equal chances?
Give them self-determined nationhood in Liberia and Mexico.

>>15795825
See that's the problem right there. Rather than admitting that the US has a problem with racism you attribute it to class and economics ( I knew you would). Why can't you admit to systemic racism in the US? This argument is mentioned in the book. Please read the book. Educate yourself.

>>15795781
Yeah the US has oil, they'd be Norway.

>>15795853
Not an argument. In fact, I'm pretty sure you are a typical shill for international capital.

>>15795853
It's not White peoples responsibility to fix coloured peoples essential inequality.

>>15795857
>>15795825
And this is an argument?

>>15795861
Why?

>>15795868
Yes. You've been ideologized to the point that your only conception of debate is "read this book, lol."

>>15795856
Never even Norway.
You forgot that america is a capitalist country where even white people get fucked. Norway and Sweden are not as capitalist, which is why they are cool.
Even if you take away the minorities, the Bernie burnouts won't get what they want because then republicans suddenly get a huge advantage in voter base because then its 100% white and whites vote right. Taxes are lowered even further, all welfare cancelled. Companies are made even more powerful. Millennials and zoomers made even poorer etc.
Jeff bezos and gill gates are still the richest men.

>>15795872
Pateralism is over. Run your own nations.

>>15795877
I am sorry. I would like to debate you but
I need to go to bed.

To sum up. All arguments presented here are played out. They are mentioned in the book.
Rather than considering the another opinion, you all revert to your basic white perception on race.

It's okay. This is a natural part of being white in American. You are not a bad person. And some of you
>>15795740
>>15794622
actually listened and helped me.

I believe most people here have a good heart. Racism kills and abuses POC 24/7.

This book is quick. Not well written (going back to OP's topic heh). But makes valid points of White people perspective on race. Give it a chance. Sometimes is good to think outside the box.

Much love and peace :)

Go to /gif/ and watch blacks smashing open white baby skulls in South Africa and rid yourself of this brainwashing.

>>15795036
>I think white people are scared of a black uprising of sorts. But this will not happen. It simply cannot happen in the US. They just want equality.
That would be preferable. The problem with antiracismTM is that It ultimately mandates that white lives be micromanaged by highly intrusive social authorities, and it goes far enough to make the accommodation of minorities a zero-sum game to all but the most masochistic of white individuals.

>>15795879
>Norway and Sweden are not as capitalist, which is why they are cool.
You are a very ignorant person.

>>15795879
You clearly don't know anything about either country then. The only reason Sweden affords so much of its socialized amenities is specifically because of capitalism - and also because they are like 99% white.

>>15795897
>Sometimes is good to think outside the box.
Reading the long form version of the mantras repeated daily. The problem is that the behavior describes as fragility is more than healthy because any desirable position in society will be fragile. Pathologist got social health is a dangerous game.

>>15795979
>>15795966
Sorry but I live in these countries and the only reason we are better than america is because we are socialist.
It's a socialist paradise.

>>15795979
America has a way higher gdp per capita. It can afford way better socialized amenities.
But it doesn't want to. Because it sucks.
America will never ever be like sweden or norway even in their current states. If you're some kind of swede who wants hardcore capitalism, go to America and enjoy it. Enjoy it like those students loaded up with debt working jobs that pay less than Lidl ever would.

>>15795983
Referring to the welfare state as socialism is something almost exclusive to Americans.

>>15795983
It isn't socialist though, like at all.
You must be some kind of fuckin' idiot who doesn't know how socialism works. How much of a share do you own in IKEA?

>>15795992
>It can afford way better socialized amenities.
No it can't, because over half our population is dead weight. Sweden can have them all and we'll see how great your healthcare plan works.

>>15795997
Not much because I don't believe in ikea.
But I do own shares in other companies in these countries. And you know that sweden is the country where a huge percentage of the population owns a share of the means of production. So its literally like socialism.
And we also get pretty good welfare. Better than america will ever give. I don't need it but I like having it in case I need it. I really enjoy our socialism.

>>15796001
It works great. I don't care if it will continue forever or not because I'll be dead but right now its better than America.

>>15795996
Welfare is socialism.

>>15791685
Read the Lion and the Unicorn, you illiterate fuck.

>Socialism is usually defined as “common ownership of the means of production”. Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does not mean that people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land, mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State. The State is the sole large-scale producer. It is not certain that Socialism is in all ways superior to capitalism, but it is certain that, unlike capitalism, it can solve the problems of production and consumption. At normal times a capitalist economy can never consume all that it produces, so that there is always a wasted surplus (wheat burned in furnaces, herrings dumped back into the sea, etc., etc.) and always unemployment. In time of war, on the other hand, it has difficulty in producing all that it needs, because nothing is produced unless someone sees his way to making a profit out of it. In a Socialist economy these problems do not exist. The State simply calculates what goods will be needed and does its best to produce them. Production is only limited by the amount of labour and raw materials. Money, for internal purposes, ceases to be a mysterious all-powerful thing and becomes a sort of coupon or ration-ticket, issued in sufficient quantities to buy up such consumption goods as may be available at the moment.

>However, it has become clear in the last few years that “common ownership of the means of production” is not in itself a sufficient definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal level, and have some kind of control over the government. “The State” may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on money.

Center right my ass.

>Forcible redistribution is necessarily opposite liberty.
No. Depends on the initial conditions. Not even Nozick could maintain the idea that the initial situation of distribution is just or conducive to liberty, he admitted as much and essentially said that Rawls was correct and his own entire book was a LARP in a footnote in Anarchy State and Utopia.

>>15796018
Oh right, and not to forget, from "Why I Write"

>Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.

>>15796014
>Not much because I don't believe in ikea.
If it were socialist you'd own as much as every other person in Sweden, retard.
>But I do
Nobody cares faggot, that's not how socialism works. You are an idiot.
>but right now its better than America.
Yeah because its not hard to have such a system when everybody is actively contributing to it. It's naive and delusional to think such a system can work in a dysfunctional society of losers who don't want to work.

You know DAMN well if Sweden got flooded by every basketball American we have that your whole economy would implode.

>>15796026
Socialism is the only thing that makes it better though. You can always have a country with no minorities like Japan or South Korea which are shitty places to live anyway because of their capitalism.
At best America's crime rate would drop but it wouldn't save any of the people that are under the age of 40 who are being crushed by the boomer style capitalism with billionaires on top.

>>15796042
Corporatism =/= Capitalism.
Not only do you not understand anything about socialism, but your grasp on capitalism is just as fucking faulty. We hardly have any capitalism in the US or indeed the world today, corporations buy out the law itself, they run government. You cant even enter some markets because of that. Theres nothing capitalist about that.

You're a joke, you think just because nationalized healthcare exist a country is socialist. Then again, logic for you seems pretty far fetched since your breath just reeks of the propagandic cock that put such retarded notions in your head

>>15796056
>We hardly have any capitalism in the US or indeed the world today, corporations buy out the law itself, they run government. You cant even enter some markets because of that. Theres nothing capitalist about that.
>Not Real Capitalism™, Real Capitalism™ has never been tried
lmao. and with such conviction.

>>15796073
>Real Capitalism™ has never been tried
Capitalism is pretty organic. The concept of private ownership and trade doesn't require coercion or propaganda, since its pretty much intuitive. It has been practiced for thousands of years without needing philosophy to define it.
Notice what an insecure brainlet you are trying to turn the tables on a common phrase because your deluded ideology has failed everywhere it has been tried, every time, without exception.

>>15796014
>sweden social
>so great
>i buy stock in privately owned swedish corporation

>>15794581
>The SAT's are a biased test. They have no validity in predicting ones educational success.


Yes they do, that's literally what they're designed to assess and they're extremely effective.

>>15796089
Socialist is basically just another word for "I hate small business." They mask their true motives by pretending to hate billionaire corporations but really only attack capitalist small business.

In reality, both capitalists and socialists would have a common enemy in corporate takeover of national policy, but socialists aren't really against them. Their real enemy is the concept of private property and thus human dignity.

>>15796080
>Capitalism is pretty organic. The concept of private ownership and trade doesn't require coercion or propaganda, since its pretty much intuitive
No.
>It has been practiced for thousands of years without needing philosophy to define it.
Because it had power. Fuck, gain any amount of historical knowledge you illiterate faggot. Tell me more about the intuitiveness of feudal power relations and the """"organic"""" genesis of "private ownership" in it.
>Notice what an insecure brainlet you are trying to turn the tables on a common phrase
Notice how apt a description it is instead, instead of being such a massive faggot who is incapable of providing an argument, and even incapable of providing an interesting insult. Nigger. Go ahead and tell me more about real capitalism, whether it has ever been implemented or tried.
>because your deluded ideology has failed everywhere it has been tried, every time, without exception.
I'm not a communist you turbofaggot, I just hate capitalism.

>>15796101
Imagine actually believing this.

>>15796056
OMG THE CRINGE

>>15796105
>No.
Yep. Bazaars for instance are a very capitalist concept. Capitalism is so totally organic it can be found practiced historically the whole world over.

Communism is impossible, since it requires 100% participation and agreement from absolutely everyone. It is inorganic full-stop.
>feudal power
You sad little deluded subhuman.
Feudalism isn't capitalism.
You hate the basic concept of something that humans do because white people gave a name to it? Holy shit. You really are historically retarded.
>Notice how apt a description it is instead,
It's pretty apt in describing socialism, noticing how absolutely assblasted you are about it to try and appropriate it LMAO

>>15796109
>>15796107
>OMG THE CRINGE
>JUST PICK UP SOME MARX BRO

>>15796117
Kek. Socialists do tend to be the absolute dregs of society.

>>15796107
>>15796097

>>15796089
That anon is clearly too much of a mentally raped fagbot to even realize how much of a clown he is.

>>15796105
>I just hate capitalism.
You hate people being able to decide they just want to sell lemonade on their front lawn? Why? Seems like an irrational and autistic thing to hate.

>>15796097
It’s eminently coachable and doesn’t correlate with success in higher education as GPAs do. But getting rid of it is just a bandaid. Our goal should be complete destruction of the hierarchy of educational institutions. There’s no reason why grooming centers for the elite should be allowed to exist.

>>15796141
To be fair, we are on the worlds greatest free resource of knowledge the planet as ever seen and you're -still- a fucking retard.

>>15796141
Yes thank you!!!!

>>15795947
Don't think of it as this. People are forgiving. You may make Racist hiccups now and then. Just learn from them. More importantly just listen to POC stories and respect their perspective. Millions of people would not lie about this racism.

>>15796167
>Millions of people would not lie about this racism.
They can and do lie about it on a daily basis.
A very significant portion of the population is completely blindfolded to any form of POC racism and denies it exists. A person must necessarily have their head in the sand to not notice the sheer amount of racist violence that comes from black people and, coincidentally, millions do.

>>15795897
>think outside the box
Lmao, this is the ideology of the establishment you stupid fuck

>>15796183
Black people cannot be racist
See >>15794267

>>15796167
Have you listened to any of the stories of the victims of black violence? Have you ever considered that maybe some of those people became racist as a result of their interactions with black people and that in some form those views are valid?

>>15796202
What box do you think in that is so great?
>>15796202
How do you think outside of the establishment?
>>15796202
I am assuming all of your idea's are original please enlighten me with your original.

>>15796208
You are the most racist people of all, you even have institutional backing for it. Black people are not charged for hate crimes when racially targeting an individual to harm them.

>>15796210
That is not an excuse to become racist.
Again see >>15794267

>>15796167
You think most or all white people have a faulty perception of race but it never ever crosses your mind that it could actually be brown people who have the incorrect perception.
Fact is that all racial groups have an in group bias but whites have the absolute least.

>>15796215
Hate crimes can only be committed by the majority with institutional backing.

>>15796224
Please read white fragility it will open your mind

>>15796220
>That is not an excuse to become racist.
Then historical racism isn't an excuse for black behavior, and thus your entire argument about only "white people being racist" is invalid.

We both know you won't admit this though because you don't live in reality. You view yourself as needing to abide by a different standard. Despite the absolute statistical fact that racial violence disproportionately comes from the black community, you are hung up on grievances you NEVER lived through, ignoring the ones of people who are actually alive today, and did.

>>15796167
Forgiving or not the basis of mere accommodation is living in a society in which I am aggressively micromanaged. I doesn’t matter how nice you are. The accommodation of you and your ilk can never be worth it to a white person who isn’t a trained masochist.

>>15796225
What is more institutional than the narrative that hate crimes can only be committed by white people? You've created an entire retarded legal system that disproportionately persecutes people based on their skin color.

>>15796231
You are deluding yourself. Cast away your prejudices and try to learn something new. You are not a bad person. You are just a little confused.

>>15796208
>I changed the definition so i'm right
Fucking lmao could you even be more disingenuous.
And even by your redefinition you're still wrong as black people are completely capable of having bias, discrimination and institutional backing.

>>15796231
>the ones of people who are actually alive today, and did.
Or even the ones who in fact aren't alive because of black racism.

>>15796230
I'm more open minded than you m8

>>15796235
Black people are more micromanaged than you or any other white person will ever be. Please learn more.
>>15796237
The legal system is already 'retarded' that disproportionately persecutes black people based on the color of their skin. Please educate yourself

>>15796240
>You are deluding yourself
You are the one who is deluded, this much is clear. There is no tenable counterargument for me saying that everyone should be viewed equally on their actions without the color of their skin. If you want to end racism, you necessarily have to address black racism, or the cycle never ends.
>Cast away your prejudices
You are the one who hates white people and think they should be punished for existing.
>try to learn something new.
I believe what you mean is "allow me to indoctrinate you"
>You are not a bad person.
You sure are, though.

>>15796244
Black people do not have institutional backing in the US.
>>15796248
Maybe on some subjects, but on race in the US you are not.

I don't give a shit about your bait /pol/ thread
Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it has anything to do with literature
And if white people where so fragile, they wouldn't have created the world in which every other part went from being a colony, or a subject, to a charity
Just because you're a loser, on /pol/, or some dipshit trying to get subscribers on twitter, doesn't mean you know what's up
So piss off

>>15796251
Please do not become defensive. But the realities are POC are being abused by racism everyday. I am not trying to indoctrinate you. I just want you to see your own white fragility. It is not a bad thing to change your opinion.

The call to "educate yourself" in place of an actual argument is always a tell that the person you're talking to has come to their position via narrative rather than reason. Its almost impossible to overcome this unless you had the power to replace the narrative he's being fed, and if you are a dissident, you don't.

>>15796249
>The legal system
Can you show me which laws do this? Where is it written in the law to prosecute black people?
>disproportionately persecutes black people based on the color of their skin
Maybe black people disproportionately commit crime? Even if we assume that there is some disparity in policing black communities(for all the obvious reasons) it isn't an issue of the legal system but rather the individual cops who decide to pursue.

I am plenty educated. I would like to see the black community become educated as well so that they aren't fooled with the idea that sports and crime are the only things available to them and they find greater avenues of expression.
Its amazing that in such an institutionally racist country as America that Mexicans who dont speak English have become business and home owners and have literally no problem with how the laws are enforced. Generationally, they are able to build wealth and improve their communities without having to demand it all just be given.

In europe they are on the dole, draining ressources and playing victim. They use the "racist" card for everything. Stop biting the hand that feed you.

>>15796265
>But the realities are POC are being abused by racism everyday
The statistical reality signifies quite the opposite my racist friend.

>>15796249
>Black people are more micromanaged than you or any other white person will ever be. Please learn more.
That's not true. The social media mob is far more omnipresent and intrusive than any secret-police in history. The left has weaponized it due to its comparative omnipresence and ability to side-step the criticisms often levied against state bodies for similar actions.
Second, it doesn't even matter because no sensible person should suport systems of highly intrusive micromanagement (which I your whataboutism is a clear recognition of).
I want to let you know that you are a bad person.

>>15796269
There is a lot of information about racism in the US. Far more than I can describe in one post. Start by reading White Fragility. It is a great starting point for understanding white perspective on race in the US.
I believe a lot reasonable, and intelligent people post on /lit/. Even with a basic amount of research, certainly you will see that Racism is a huge problem for POC in the US

>>15796255
Black people do have institutional backing, far more than white people.

>>15796269
This is clear.
A person must be literally programmed in order to believe that we should culturally hold people to higher or lower standards based on the color of their skin... to combat racism...

>>15796284
I am starting to believe you're just trolling and you aren't really this retarded.

>>15796269
The left dislikes open discourse because they believe that the mere presence of ideas they find objectionable has the capacity to turn large swathes of the population against them. Because of this they've mastered the rhetoric of dismissal, and one of the key tactics is to disrupt conversations by telling their opponent to read something before conversation can begin (even though they're in the middle of one. The other popular choice is to just scream about "bad faith" until the conversation becomes so fruitless that their opponent has no choice but to shut up and walk away.

>>15796274
The 13th amendment in combination of the mass incarceration of black people in the US. Nixon used his southern strategy to criminalize drug use and Black people. Black people are more likely to be sent to jail for drug use rather than a white person.
This was continued with Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Trump.

Some immigrants have it easier than black people because they were not demonized prior to the conception of the US.

Drug abuse is not a crime but a health issue that should not be criminalized.

>>15796274
>Mexicans who dont speak English have become business and home owners and have literally no problem with how the laws are enforced.
da hwite man took errythang wish i was back wit my nibbas in nibbaria

>>15796291
I don't think so. This person is just trained and is going through the flowchart.

>>15796291
Why do you feel intimidate by my posts?
Why do you feel I am trolling you?

My thoughts are that widely outside of your thinking?

Are you embarrassed for me?

>>15796303
>The 13th amendment in combination of the mass incarceration of black people in the US
Does the 13th amendment not apply to white people? You know what's a real good way not to end up in prison? Don't sell drugs.
>Drug abuse is not a crime but a health issue that should not be criminalized.
If you don't want to get buttfucked in prison then just don't participate in crime, retard. You've got to be a real stupid motherfucker to lobby against a law -after- you lost your civil rights as a felon.

>>15789299
>this is the hill burgers chose to die on
will america be remembered as the most laughable way for an empire to fall?

>>15796308
>My thoughts are that widely outside of your thinking?
They aren't logically consistent. Do you want a fair and equal society or do you want one which grants blacks disproportionate favor?
If you want the former, then welcome to the club. We should come together to end Black Racism today.
If you want the latter, then I'm sorry, but you are not only a hypocrite - but you should probably get curbstomped too as an act of self-defense.

>>15796313
Do you really believe that drug addicts should be put in jail?

Have you ever been addicted to drugs?

White people do suffer from the 13th amendment. But black are more likely to be imprisoned then white people.

>>15796324
No I want equality among all races.

>>15796325
>Do you really believe that drug addicts should be put in jail?
It doesn't matter what I think. If you don't want to go to jail then it's a simple decison not to. Its really not that fucking hard, idiot.

>>15796316
They never had an empire, the British just used them as an usher

>>15796330
Then why wont you take a stand against Black institutional racism and racial violence?

>>15796325
In urban spaces, personal drug use causes immediate harm to the surroundings in ways where it should be a crime.
I also have known many addicts in my life and have sympathy for very few of them.

>>15796334
Answer my second question

Drug addiction is a health issue. People who are addicted to drugs cannot be helped in prison.

>>15796341
>Answer my second question
No, I haven't. Believe it or not, not getting addicted to crack was among the least of challenges I've ever had to overcome. You may not believe black people possess the intelligence to "just say no."
But I personally don't see why they can't.

>>15796338
There is no such thing as black institutional racism.
But rather than shouting points.

Why do you feel marginalized as a white person? ( I am assuming you are white. If not please tell me otherwise.)

>>15796340
What about the sympathy you have for the few?

>>15796354
As a former drug addict.
Drugs are hard to quit
And our justice system does not want to see you quit. They want you back in the system to make more money.

I know it's easy for you to say no. But for some they try it once and they are addicted for life.
You will never understand.

Not being rude
But honestly I would like to hear the challenges you have overcomed.

>>15796355
>There is no such thing as black institutional racism.
Sure there is. There is no "equal opportunity" in black owned businesses, you are funded directly for the color of your skin on projects, for education, and for your communities. White people not only receive none of those benefits, they are actively policed on to ensure they have a harder time than black people to achieve the same thing.

Imagine the broken hearts of all those non-black individuals who were turned down for college admission because, despite having higher grades and testing higher, they were not black.
>Why do you feel marginalized as a white person?
I'm not white. I simply have too much self-esteem to think I should be held to a lower standard.

>>15796359
I know one person who got hooked on opioids after a surgery. But I blame corporations and the universities who trained their employees for that one.

>>15796372
Yes!!
I agree.
How did that person make out?

>>15796369
Interesting. What lower standard are you talking about?

>>15796376
They had enough money to continue their habit without resorting to heroin. I also think you misunderstand When I say universities are partially responsible, I'm saying that the current opioid crisis was engineered by leftist academics to undermine the parts of the country that wasn't explicitly under their control.

>>15796365
>I would like to hear the challenges you have overcomed.
I was the only non-white kid in a small desert town of a couple thousand. The nearest grocery store was a 45 minute drive. With nothing to my name I had to leave home after school with nobody to help me.

I had to find work, shelter, everything on my own. That was at least over 10 years ago.
Yet, now, I have a new car, a great home, and do community service regularly.
Its funny how despite not being white, and growing up entirely around white people, it is black racism that really concerns me.
Its because I live in a country that afforded me the opportunity to make something of myself if I chose to do so, regardless of my skin color. Its because white people were generally kind and treated me fairly.

When I moved out of state and had nothing? Where do you think I had to live? What kind of people do you think I had to live around?
You can probably postulate some kind of hypothesis on how that went, and what kind of shit went on there.

>>15796388
I personally think it is corporations trying to make money off an addictive substance. I am sorry that person is continuing their use.

Tell me more about how leftist academics used opioids to gain control.

>>15796379
Lower GPA standards.
Having impunity to be racist, and use this as a motive to rob or harm another.
Being able to appreciate racially based financial aid that would be socially frowned upon the other way around.

Just the very language we use on the day-to-day basis. Take inventory of the things you say and hear, invert the colors.
If you can't change the word WHITE to BLACK without it sounding racist, then it is probably racist. You no doubt haven't noticed this before because you are oblivious to what doesnt suit your bias.

>>15796390
Are you? Also >>15796369?

What country are you from?

Because I am strictly speaking from a US perspective.

>>15796400
Yep

>>15796399
I don't understand what you mean by inverting the language.

>>15796404
What country are you from?

>>15796392
>Tell me more about how leftist academics used opioids to gain control.
I've typed it out, and I'll post it if you're honest with me about one thing. Are you posting here as part of a dissertation?

>>15790501
I agree with what he's saying, but not with his choice of words. He shouldn't say "foreign". This is about white people securing their self interests as a group, not about the citizens of a nation securing their national interests. Not all Americans are white, so you can't isolate the problem by calling it "foreign".

>>15796413
I am posting out of frustration.
I do not understand why so many people on this site have trouble accepting that POC are discriminated against.

So no this isn't a dissertation. I will not repeat or copy anything you say. I am just curious.

>>15789299

>>15796406
Changing the word black to white and vice versa.
>>15796412
US.

>>15796428
I don't think inverting the language does anything.
Maybe explain it more?

>>15796428
I am not saying these things to demonize white people. Through reading White Fragility I realize racism is on a spectrum.
And being racist isn't necessarily bad if you are willing to realize when you are being racist.
It sounds like you had good experiences with white people and bad experiences with black people.

>>15796413
>>15796422
Who the fuck writes a dissertation on 4chan? XD

>>15796422
>I do not understand why so many people on this site have trouble accepting that POC are discriminated against.
There are two reasons (this isn't my perpsective, by the way): first, is that the vast majority of cases are trivial (how fragile do you have to be to have half of the gripes listed in that invisible knapsack essay meaningfully effect your life), second, that the experiences these people face are deserved, and third that the benefits given to them by society outweigh any discrimination they may face. I think it ultimately comers down to having an entirely different sense of justice.

I on the other hand just don't care, and understand that the solutions proposed by "antiracists" (all of which amount to intrusive micromanagement of every aspect of my life) isn't preferable to any other solution.

>>15796460
But why should they face discrimination when white people don't face any?

>>15796452
>I don't think inverting the language does anything
Go around saying "I hate white people".
You'll be applauded.
Try saying you hate black people. It's a societal and institutional double standard.

>>15796471
Because the cost of accommodation makes eliminating it not worthwhile for me or people like me. At this point it's a zero-sum game. If it makes you happy, I'm sure it will be forced upon me eventually. My only hope at this point is that our faiulure to act on climate change makes your victory short-lived.

>>15796476
Why do you think that is?

>>15796452
>It sounds like you had good experiences with white people and bad experiences with black people
I've had good and bad with both, but in general more black communities are victim to negative behaviors than white ones. If they continue to ignore this, and refuse to address it, they are robbing any opportunity to create a different life for the younger generations. Instead of making excuses, it is time for us all to take responsibility for the communities we create and improve them. By making black racism commonplace, and accepted, there will never be any end to the division.

>>15796486
Right you have investment in a system that cater's to you?

>>15796501
So you don't believe there is any sort of systemic racism or bias in US institutions against people of color?

>>15796506
I have an aversion to a proposed system that is hostile towards me. I'm open to other ways of existing, but not that one.

>>15796488
Because it makes money for people who dont give a fuck about you, me, or white people. Blacks are slaves to an image they've been selling themselves for decades, and it's done nothing but disparage white people who possess no inherent privilege whatsoever. Black liberal allies are insulated from the fallout of the situation, since they dont actually have to live in it.

>>15796523
I wonder what would change for you in a system that is inclusive of all races and ethnicities?

>>15796514
In the past, sure. Today? Quite the opposite. There are reasons for this, I'm sure, it would seem to me the most reasonable one is because it keeps populations distracted, ineffectual, and constantly consuming the garbage they are fed.

>>15796525
Interesting
are you new to the conversation?

>>15796536
>>15796523
Thank you for discussing and being honest

I believe most people here have a good heart. Racism kills and abuses POC 24/7.

This book is quick. Not well written (going back to OP's topic heh). But makes valid points of White people perspective on race. Give it a chance. Sometimes its good to think outside the box.

Much love and peace :)

>>15793389
... and physically hehe

>>15796543
>Racism kills and abuses
people in general*
If you have no problem with racial violence that kills white people then you are not actually against racist violence.

>>15789421
Yeah. This is how I have felt for a while. The left is attack and destroying Western civilization, and any defense of it makes you "fragile" its clearly a catch 22 designed to stop us from fighting back.

regular black and white people should negotiate a peaceful separation, cut out all the academics and professional race baiting pundits on both sides.

>>15797056
I can't wait for the third world masses to rise up and destroy us.
We don't deserve any of this.

>>15796120
yeah capitalist voters seem to be the best society has to offer though

>>15796249
The legal system disproportionately persecutes criminals, and since black people commit more crimes, they're disproportionately affected. The funny thing is that black people see this as racism without any hint of irony, which just goes to show that black people have no desire to stop committing crimes. They just don't want to be punished for them. The same thing is happening with the shootings or otherwise killings of black people by police more recently.

>>15791673
Best post