/lit/ - Literature

>>15771745
Because Plato forgot the Seinsfrage, according to him. Now I can understand that feeling. Me for instance I hate Heidegger because he forgot the trytosayintelligentthingsinsteadofpurebullshitalldaylongsfrage.

>>15771745
>>15771757
But he didn't even believe most of the anti-Plato shit he write, he literally refutes and denies all of it in his early 30's Parmenides essay and says in essence he continued the question of being, though with mistakes, as a necessary formulating structure. Plato didn't deny the Instance, he didn't deny the Seinsfrage, and Heidegger himself said Parmenides was the fullest formulation of the question of the meaning of Being at that time, containing the entire question of it(and not an answer like his other dialogues but in being not without by this very formulation the essence of an answer appearing), but that the limits of the possibility of that question were shown in the Greek use of the word essence as synonymous with, or vestige for being.

So I ask again, why'd he present himself as if he thought that Plato was some sort of evil? I've heard that it was an attempt to represent a similarity to Nietzsche in the history of metaphysics as Platonism and thereby be granted some level of authoritative inheritance.

>>15771745
>sure he made mistakes
No he didn't. Heidegger, like Aristotle, was piggybacking on Plato's renown for free relevance points

>>15771960
I mean in the sense of ultimate truth.

>>15771989
You'll have to be more clear than that

>>15771745
heidegger believed that the pre-socratics believed like him in angels, miracles and revelations, and held plato to be responsible for the rationalist and anti-ontological turn in philosophy.
while the second part about plato is true (and commonplace), the first part about the presocratics was just as demented as everything else in heidneger.

>>15772113
>he doesn't believe in angels, miracles and revelations
midwit detected

>>15772113
But Plato believed in the soul and the Forms.

>>15772058
I mean he made mistakes in the sense that he will of course not be right about everything in the ultimate truth, but one could hardly call them mistakes for his age.

>>15772244
i also believe in the forms, not believing in the forms means being an animal. how do you distinguish a guitar from a a flute, in spite of the multiple shapes that a guitar or a flute can have? that precisely is the form/the essence/the idea. one doesn't "believe" in the forms he sees them every time he sees an object as an object and not just a confuse concoction of perceptions.
the universal soul is more a stoic thing, and it is as impersonal as a physical law, in fact it is the logos/necessity of kosmos.

>>15772268
There's no ultimate truth, Plato admits you can't know anything about the non-physical word in Phaedo. And Socrates always said he knows he doesn't know anything. What does age have to do with anything?

>>15772113
So this is why he does not like Plato? Is he even aware that the pre-socratics (pythagoras, parmenides are different cases) started corrupting philosophy? What does he say about the UTTER materialistic rationality of Zeno, which made Leucippus and Democritos bring forth atomism as reaction?

>>15772439
all pre-socratic philosophers but parmenides (and including pythagoras) are the foremost materialists europe had, with the french ones (basically diderot, la mettrie, helvetius, condillac, d'holbach, de tracy, cabanis). it's a well aknowledged fact. only heidneger thought otherwise, and this is why he for instance hated to the bone nietzsche's lectures and notes on the pre-socratics.

>>15772113
Was Heidegger a christcuck?

>>15772651
>diderot, la mettrie, helvetius, condillac, d'holbach, de tracy, cabanis
literally who. hobbes presented materialist arguments before france even had philosophy

>>15772658
no but he was educated to become a catholic priest (until 25 if i remember well)
>>15772697
hobbes is a materialist, also leonardo da vinci and telesio are materialists. but the apotheosis of materialism is french.

>>15772724
Kill yourself frog

>>15772724
So what was he? Pagang?

>>15772846
sort of. basically just a regular romanticist/vitalist.

>>15773163
okay based. Where do I start with him?

he didn't dislike Plato, he just greatly preferred Aristotle. real philosophers don't "dislike" anyone in the tradition.

>>15773390
>real philosophers don't "dislike" anyone in the tradition.
Are you 12?

>>15771745
because Plato was an evil communist

>>15773464
there is this thing called IRONY in the platonic dialogues, maybe you should read them, retard

>>15773483
Yeah, the Republic was a big fat irony.

>>15773523
commit suicide

>>15773374
with his correspondence (unironically)

>>15773483
>what i disagree with is irony
The absolute state of liberal interpretation of philosophy

>>15773464
He clearly was a monarcho-futurist.

>>15773464
I don't think many communists support absolute monarchy and eugenics and leaving the disabled to die.

>>15774139
He was the actual NazBol meme 2K years before the NazBol meme.

>>15773483
Socratic irony isn't the same thing as modern irony.

>>15771757

If you're too stupid to understand philosophy then why are you bothering trying to have opinions on Heidegger?

If you can't get anything out of a book besides "WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS" maybe the problem isn't the author maybe it's you.

>>15771745

Heidegger's entire argument against metaphysics is that everything goes wrong with Plato because Plato is the first to posit that the Being of beings is itself *a* Being (the forms). That's why.

Venmo me.

>>15774937
>the Form itself is a Form

Wow, that's actually pretty deep. Made me think.

>>15774948

What it means to be a being is not itself a being. Plato posits that essences are literal objects. The result of this is that today we think being is nothing because it is not itself an object. If you actually bothered to read anything by Heidegger you would be able to see what that has to do with arguments he is making from Being and Time on.
But instead you're just sitting there like a fucking idiot mashing keys like a monkey trying to come up with Shakespeare--mimicking a simulation of someone having an actual opinion about books.

>>15774977
>The result of this is that today we think being is nothing
I thought we believed the opposite of that though? That Being is the only real and insofar as we can talk about something else it is at best because it have some sort of existence through its participation in Being or at worst is illusionary.

>>15775057

I don't know who you are talking about, but most people today are, as Richard Rorty put it, commonsensically utilitarians and materialists--not Platonists or Aristotelians.

Read Heidegger if you really want to get what he's on about. There's no royal road to it.

>>15775097
False. The Abrahamic religious people today are heavely influenced by Platonism. They aren't Platonists but that the influence of Platonism is still visible.

>>15775231

Look if you're just going to be intentionally obtuse and pretend that premodern religious traditions still actually hold more sway over what people believe than (nihilistic) enlightenment materialistic technoscientific ideas then have a great day and enjoy being closed minded about one of the most important thinkers of the 20th century for no reason.

>>15775057
> That Being is the only real
no, luckily (since it is a fallacy) the west doesn't think that, excpet for the mystics. not even kant and schopenhauer, who came dangerously closer to it than anyone else.
in the west, the being is a non-issue.
rationalist epistemology (eg plato's or aristotle's or deacartes') holds that the ultimate truth is << A = A and not (nonA) >> and all its subsequent propositions.
empiricist epistemology (e.g. epicurus' or hume's or mach's) holds that the ultimate truth is sensory perception.

>>15774948
>what's parmenides

>>15771745
Read Heideggers Nietzsche volumes to understand him.

>>15772294
>There's no ultimate truth
There literally is, have you not read Timaeus? Even saying there is no ultimate truth is obviously an ultimate truth, and Plato's knowledge of what the Forms are beyond this world, and then of this world whose being exists by friendship with itself, shows that one can know an absolute truth, or that there is absolute truth. That's not to say that we can know everything, however anon. I was saying that Plato obviously isn't as complex as modern philosophy, as Heidegger for example, but it would really be wrong to consider that a mistake for how much he did in his age.

>>15773163
He uproots Christian theological terms and ideas and puts them into a (if you will allow the use of the word) "secular" context and development of philosophy. As even Jonathan Bowden said the pagan, I don't think Heidegger ever left the Jesuits in his thought. At the end of his life he talked to a priest and had Catholic Rites and a Catholic funeral. After his death, an interview was published from a few years earlier that was only allowed to be published after his death, because the controversy it would cause in modern men: "Only God can save us", and that one will only be able to think and poeticize, find a side ward path through the catastrophe of modernity. Or something like that, put much better than I.

Heidegger didn't like Romanticism, and reducing him and his philosophy to "vitalism" is so cringe and vulgar you should leave this site and never come back. I have nothing against Pagans except for those who dislike Christianity, and the fact that you don't want to read arguably the the great end of philosophy as of yet because he might be a "Christian" is pathetic. The fact that you don't want to read anyone because they're Christian makes you an evil person, because of your ignorance and fear.

Pagans will always seethe because they only have cringe unoriginal cum drinkers like Evola.

>>15775304
Heidegger didn't even consider Schopenhauer a philosopher, but I agree with you.

>>15776443
yikes

>>15776443
this

>>15771745
Because Aristotle

>>15776489
Wow, ya really got me anon.

>the modern church is corrupt
>waah man you're rocking my mind

>>15776489
Wow, ya really got me anon.

>the modern church is corrupt specifically after allowing homosexuals to join
>waah man you're rocking my mind

>>15777883
Wouldn't exist without Plato.

>>15778104
And Plato wouldn't exist without either Socrates or the Egyptian scribes. What's your point? You can be a dogmatic Platonist if you want, but even Plato wasn't one.

>>15776443
> "Only God can save us"
he said "only SOME GOD can save us" , retard (Nur noch ein Gott kann uns retten). btw neopagans annoy me even more than christians, if possible.
> Heidegger didn't like Romanticism
if you had read one single page of his work , you would know that heidegger's philosophy revolves around one point, and that point is called hölderlin. he mentions him any other page.

all the rest is just a rambling of a mad man, frankly. enjoy life.

>>15778738
>you would know that heidegger's philosophy revolves around one point, and that point is called hölderlin

what was intended to be signified by this

>>15778738
>only some god can save us
isn't this only a way of not going with a popular resignation of faith? it is a contraction in resignation.

>>15771745
All he does is hide eggs. The fucker.

>>15778778
> isn't this only a way of not going with a popular resignation of faith
which is the definition itself of vitalism, neo-paganism, etc.

>>15778814
i think it kinda makes sense because that expression of faith is just pride and narcissism and we know neopaganism is idolatrous

>>15778839
all expressions of faith are idolatrous and narcissistic.

>>15772113
Modern misreading of Plato.
There's a reason why nearly all of Plato's followers except Aristotle were deeply Mystic spiritualists. Pretty much all of the Platonic tradition is the source for Apophatic theology in Christian mysticism, Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Rosicrucianism, Kabbalah, Suffi mysticism, the Druze, and so on.
>>15772283
This is not an accurate assessment of the forms. Forms are not the thing of themselves, but the transcendental state which things are merely imperfect expressions.
Stoicism is almost entirely derivative from Platonism.

>>15778738
>if you had read one single page of his work , you would know that heidegger's philosophy revolves around one point, and that point is called hölderlin. he mentions him any other page.
Lmao stop larping, he thought Holderlin was harking back to something ancient Greek.

Also the translation is "a God", not "some God", that sounds stupid.

>all the rest is just a rambling of a mad man, frankly.
Of course, everything you can't understand of the greatest thinker of the 21st century is mad.

>>15778152
Aristotle is the only other conclusion possible. He represents the materialist rationality concerned with the tangible and observed. Plato is concerned with a "heaven" of sorts, that reaching out for the type of knowledge only possible in the realm of ideas.
Aristotle is the scientist, Plato is the mystic.
There is certainly a big part of Plato which is founded upon science, but it isn't and end to itself - but rather a step toward understanding a nearly panpsychic form of reality beyond the senses.

They represent two differing forms of intellectual - most people will fall into a school of one or the other in terms of worldview.

>>15778814
>> isn't this only a way of not going with a popular resignation of faith
>which is the definition itself of vitalism, neo-paganism, etc.
Firstly, Heidegger wasn't making a resignation of faith but asserting it(see quote below), but how blinded are you to think this defines paganism? Do you just like the sounding of the word Paganism" and add it onto anything you like to believe in? Furthermore, do you even know what vitalism is? Lmao.

>"God lets the oppositional will of the ground operate in order that might be which love unifies and subordinates itself to for the glorification of the Absolute. The will of love stands about the will of the ground and this predominance, this eternal decidedness, the love for itself as the essence of being in general, this decidedness is the innermost core of absolute freedom."

>>15779011
Heidegger thought Aristotle was more mystical and Plato more of realism.

>>15778987
>Plato's followers
they claim to be his followers but they aren't of course. christians are particolarly retared about this, e.g. this board is full of nietzschean christians.
technically speaking, the stocis are the only legitimate heir of the platonic accademia. and the stocis were rationalists, mechanists, determinists, empiricists. not mystic at all, not irrationalist, not believing in magic, rituals, revelation, initiation, prisca sapientia, etc. that is a middle eastern thing, not greek, not european.
> transcendental state
1. this language has nothing to do with plato
2. i don't think you know what transcendental means
3. the forms are the essences, the scholastic quidditates, the universales. that is what make you recognize something for what it is and not something else.
4. you should at least read some general easy introduction to western philosophy before posting on here

>>15779027
I really don't know why anyone would think that considering their influence produced drastically different types of thought historically. The causal chain of influence historically shows a dry and academic following from Aristotle that spans across cultures. The impact of Neoplatonism was always a lot more Mysterious and, in a sense, religious.

>>15779035
>that is a middle eastern thing, not greek, not european.
This is /pol/ tier of "muh thoughts".

>3. the forms are the essences, the scholastic quidditates, the universales. that is what make you recognize something for what it is and not something else.
>t. hasn't read Plato
Why is it like everyone hasn't read the Timaeus?

>>15779044
Well Aristotle's Metaphysics and focus on Being likely led Heidegger to believe this. However you should know that Platonism is a religion.

>>15779045
Heidegger was a /pol/ack

>>15779004
> he thought Holderlin was harking back to something ancient Greek
fuck you are probably the dumbest guy on 4chan.
>>15779022
> resignation of faith but asserting it
i said the definition of neo-paganism is "a way of not going with a popular resignation of faith", not a resignation of faith per se.
also im not a pagan/an heideggerian , retard

>>15779035
>they claim to be his followers but they aren't of course. christians are particolarly retared about this
I think it is you who is retarded.
Of course Middle and Neoplatonists are followers of Plato.
> not mystic at all
Lol. Their conception of pantheism is almost ENTIRELY mystic. Philosophizing itself is entirely a spiritual excercise aimed at coming closer toward divinity.
>2. i don't think you know what transcendental means
No, clearly you don't know what it means, dumbfuck.
Let me spell it out for you so you don't make a fool of yourself again.
Transcendental: relating to a spiritual or nonphysical realm.
Platos Forms: the physical world is not as real or true as timeless, absolute, unchangeable ideas. the non-physical essences of all things, of which objects and matter in the physical world are merely imitations

Why are you even discussing ideas in literature you've never even read? You didn't even have the god damn common decency to look them up before you started talking about it.
Believing a chair is a chair doesn't mean you believe in Forms, because the Forms are not the thing of itself, idiot.

>>15779050
>you should know that Platonism is a religion.
Its more of a spiritual discipline than a doctrine.
Plato wouldn't have wanted people to stagnate on his teachings as the gospel rather than to push the core concepts further.

>>15779045
1. the doctrine of the ideas is exposed in the phaedo, you illiterate brainlet.
2. if you had actually read the timaeus you'd know that it has nothing to do with your astrological/gnostic garbage.

>>15779084
Not him but, if you've read Phaedo or Timaeus how the FUCK did you think the Forms had anything to do with materialism? Are you stupid or do you just have a learning disability?

>>15779067
>fuck you are probably the dumbest guy on 4chan.
Am I wrong?

>i said the definition of neo-paganism is "a way of not going with a popular resignation of faith",
Yes and that's a retarded definition, that's a definition for retards.

>>15779071
> pantheism
1. it has nothing to do with mysticism, since it deals with neither transcendence nor being.
2. stoic so called "pantheism" (they never use this word) means that for them (unlike the epicureans) the universe is ruled by a causal-logical necessity which is called the universal soul. it is not a fluid, it is not a spirit, it is not a transcendent element: it is an abstract concept, that is, the necessity of the world.
> Philosophizing itself is entirely a spiritual excercise aimed at coming closer toward divinity.
say who? you?
> Transcendental: relating to a spiritual or nonphysical realm
lmao, case closed.

>>15779077
>Plato wouldn't have wanted people to stagnate on his teachings as the gospel rather than to push the core concepts further.
Of course, it's still philosophy, but the definition of religion should not be minute, it is broad. Platonism most definitely, as Plato believed in it himself, and as followers did also is a religion.

>>15779077
>this world, the made out of the closest imitation and recreation of the forms possible marvellous God, as good as it possibly could be below the forms with life, of which we are always still striving up to... has nothing to do with things not of these world

>>15779090
as i said here >>15772113 , plato is a rationalist, not a materialist.
>>15779098
you are not only wrong, you have proved that you didn't even bother to read some wikipedia page before writing. you wrong AND dumb as shit.

>>15779084
Also as the other anon said, Phaedo is literally about passing into the other life, opposed to this world and its material sense

>>15779118
i said it here actually : >>15775304

>>15779118
>you are not only wrong, you have proved that you didn't even bother to read some wikipedia page before writing. you wrong AND dumb as shit.
Not an argument.

>>15779100
>since it deals with neither transcendence nor being.
It absolutely does. As per the following of those who used the word Philosophy after Pythagoras and Plato - it is a discipline of spiritual purification and rebirth, a form of training for death. Humans possess some small spark of the Logos to which they return at death.

Resulting from the influence of Socrates, the evil of humans is a result from ignorance, and that goodness resides in the soul which we come to find with reason.
>it is not a transcendent element:
Uh yeah, fate is absolutely transcendent.
Can you put it in a glass and measure it? Then shut the fuck up and stop pretending like you know what you're talking about.
>say who? you?
All the Stoics.
>case closed.
Indeed, you were wrong. You were thoroughly proven as wrong. The Forms, as described, are non-physical, transcendental.

>>15779136
>Uh yeah, fate is absolutely transcendent.
>Can you put it in a glass and measure it? Then shut the fuck up and stop pretending like you know what you're talking about.
Based Kantian correctly understanding the definition of transcendental.

>>15779121
the point here is not if plato believed in an afterlife or in the ball-men of the symposium. the point is understanding what the ideas are to him as exposed in the phaedo, the theaetetus, the epinomides , the politeia, etc.
as i said, the ideas are the scholastic universales, every high school student knows it.

>>15779136
> Uh yeah, fate is absolutely transcendent.
Can you put it in a glass and measure it? Then shut the fuck up and stop pretending like you know what you're talking about
please stop humiliating yourself

>>15779157
Looks like it is you being humiliated.
You sure made some real stupid posts and should stop.

>>15779100
All your posts are garbage. You're not as smart as you apparently think you are.

>>15779166
point is, when i switch off the phone i will still know plato and enjoy his wrtings, while you larper will be left alone with your suicidal ideation, your petty astrology and kabbalah, and your objectively wrong and 12 years old tier wrong definitions of "transcendental"
you have no idea of how much it makes me relish.

>>15779152
>the point is understanding what the ideas are to him
Yes, and?

>as i said, the ideas are the scholastic universales, every high school student knows it.
If you mean what I take you to mean, that's just plainly wrong, and closer to Aristotle. The Forms have a function in the world, in that the material form of beauty exists by the form of the beautiful, just as he shows in the Timaeus everything ultimately goes back to the form of the Good for its existence. Though there are of course more complexities in his thought, and more ability to stretch what he meant, nevertheless it remains that the Forms are not just "value-holders" as many have wrongly determined him to mean by it, and that is a very pubescent way of seeing it so you are right in that, but instead have a Function in this world as transcendental Functioners, as well as of their own being as shown by in the Timaeus this world crafted perfectly in imitation of the Forms. But in something like the Republic it is obvious they allow this world to be, the beautiful things in this world be by the Form of the beautiful, and are sometimes the sensually beautiful are even considered shadow castings of these Forms, in this case the Form of the beautiful.

We'll never have an exact understanding of Plato's philosophy, but we nonetheless have most of his ideas and sometimes seemingly competing concepts.

>>15779183
>12 years old tier wrong definitions of "transcendental"
It's quite literally -the- definition.
If you're too much of a knuckledragging trogolodyte to know what 'transcendental' means, I can bet top dollar you don't understand much about Plato. You have made a fool of yourself today, if you possessed a modicum of the intelligence you attempt to portray, you'd have the humility to accept you were wrong and move on.
You can't, because you are a dim pseudointellectual.

>>15779184
> But in something like the Republic
you choose the wrong text indeed. the more plato makes advances in his theory of the ideas, the more it disconnect it from either the empirical world and the childish "paradise of ghosts" you think the world of the ideas is. he clearly say it in the 7th book of the republoc (and basically all his later works) : the ideas are geometrical figures. this is btw the meaning of the inscription on the door of the academy:
"Let no one ignorant of geometry enter"
this too witnesses all the difference between plato and , say , a gnostic.

>>15779206
>We must turn ourselves from here to there, my friends, and make our minds like the mind of the world.
>Now the place beyond heaven, no earthly poet has sung truly, still, this is the way it is. >Risky as it may be, I must attempt to speak the truth.
>Even the most beautiful physical motions fall far short of the true motions beyond the heavens, which trace out the true mathematical equations of the Universe.
>Intelligible, beautiful, and just.
>What is in this place is without color, without shape, and without solidity, a being that really is what it is, the subject of all true knowledge.
>Visible ONLY to the eye of the mind, the pilot of the soul delighted at last to be seeing what is real, and watching what is true.
>And this is where we find true beauty, justice, knowledge, being and courage, the meadow of the truth which only the mind can see.
Plato is clearly beyond you.

>>15779243
>Even the most beautiful physical motions fall far short of the true motions beyond the heavens, which trace out the true mathematical equations of the Universe

nice forgery. case closed #2.

>>15779243
>Visible ONLY to the eye of the mind, the pilot of the soul delighted at last to be seeing what is real, and watching what is true
and this is another forgery

>>15771745
I'm going to pretend like the rest of this thread doesn't exist because its too late to jump into that scrap, those two are doing their own thing. OP, what you need is to read The End of Philosophy and The Task of Thinking. He doesn't hate Plato, but he thinks that "all metaphysics speaks the language of Plato." If we take philosophy, as it has been handed down to us by Plato, as authoritative in language or content, we've already missed the most fundamental questions of all, namely, why there is something rather than nothing and in what way it is revealed to us in "the clearing". Plato did the best he could, and philosophy isn't inherently flawed for missing these questions, and further, we lack the vantage point to criticize these former philosophical movements for not including certain questions.

Heidegger thought that Parmenides posed a thought which Plato ignored, but later in life he removed any condemnation from this judgment.

>>15779287
>>15779297
Phaedrus 247d
Read a book.

>>15779380
> and is visible only to the mind, the pilot of the soul. Now the divine intelligence, since it is nurtured on mind and pure knowledge, and the intelligence of every soul which is capable of receiving that which befits it, rejoices in seeing reality for a space of time and by gazing upon truth is nourished and made happy until the revolution brings it again to the same place. In the revolution it beholds absolute justice, temperance, and knowledge, not such knowledge as has a beginning and varies as it is associated with one or another of the things we call realities, but that which abides in the real eternal absolute; and in the same way it beholds and feeds upon the other eternal verities, after which, passing down again within the heaven, it goes home, and there the charioteer puts up the horses at the manger and feeds them with ambrosia and then gives them nectar to drink.

you mean this, brainlet? what does it have to do with what you wrote?

>>15779448
>what does
>delighted at last to be seeing what is real, and watching what is true
>have to do with
>rejoices in seeing reality for a space of time and by gazing upon truth
I see you are mad you got called the fuck out as a retard.

>>15779513
1. they mean completely different things. which translation is it? who is the name of the translator?
2. now im getting sick of it. WHERE THE FUCK IS THE PASSAGE ON
> true motions beyond the heavens, which trace out the true mathematical equations of the Universe
YOU FUCKING RETARD? do you think i can't distinguish plato's prose from you deliria?

>>15779531
They are both stating the same thing, idiot. I get it you're a colossal moron that cant read subtext and are relying on ultra literal conceptions of translations, but the translation I gave you varies little from the Perseus project one you're using.
My interpretation should be pretty much assumed, considering Socrates throughout Platos dialogue references a transcendental realm that he is going to in death.

>>15779531
>get BTFO
>act ultra angry to try and save face
Lol

>>15779553
1. again, i want the names of the translator and his editor, and the exact passage in greek on the "true mathematical eqautions beyond the heavens". then we are done.
2. they mean completely different things because he subject of the phrase in your garbage tier forgery is changed.

>>15779206
>and the childish "paradise of ghosts" you think the world of the ideas is.
I never said the world of Ideas was synonymous with the afterlife you retard. As the other anon said, it's like you literally haven't read Plato.

>the ideas are geometrical figures
You completely misunderstand the mathico-numerological religious symbolism of Platonism. That doesn't mean the Forms are just value-holders for this world you absolute braindead imbecile, why are you even attempting to say Plato wasn't a mystic, or believed in otherworldy forms, it's like the retarded liberal professors who try to use Aristotle as a beacon of light for their liberalism and eudaimonology.

READ THE FUCKING TIMAEUS ALREADY IF IT WASN'T ALREADY OBVIOUS TO YOU IT SHOWS QUITE CLEARLY THE FORMS ARE NOT MERELY DESCRIPTIONS OF THIS WORLD.

>>15779578
stop doubling you posts retard.

>>15779531
Kek, just stop posting anon

>>15779553
>They are both stating the same thing, idiot.
Lmao "ugh ugh they're both stating the same things anyway" what a cope you fucking larper, I new you were a larper but this proves it beyond doubt.

How many times have you been btfo'd in this thread? And how many times more?

>>15779601
They are almost verbatim the same. Stay mad, brainlet

>>15779608
They really aren't, but to be clear, which belief about Plato are you advocating again? In the previous argument.

>>15779584
> merely descriptions of the world.
besides the astrological-numerological-mystical trash in the first part of your astoundingly obtuse, baseless post, to which im not even going to answer anymore, i never said that plato was an empiricist, a specified it very clearly in the other post.
rationalists like plato or descartes do not believe that their theories are descriptions of the perceived world, but the other way around.
your mistake, as a self-thaught parvenu of the internet, is that all non-empiricist are pathetic animists/gnostics/shamans/generic retards like you.

>>15779608
POST THE FUCKING NAMES, AND THE GREEK TEXT ON THE TRUE MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS

>>15779621
Did I say perceived world? Stop with the strawmen anon, I said of this world. And you seem afraid to actually focus on your argument, instead preferring to claim I don't understand what you're saying.

Yes I'm well aware that you believe Plato's Forms, which we connect to through Nous, are of this world which also includes the sensory. So can you please answer and stop projecting this shoddy modern misunderstanding of mysticism onto me? True mysticism has always recognised that there is something, a deeper thought, below typical practical thought. And Plato is very much in this line, though of course one cannot still afford to provide some minute exact definition of the word "mystic" because of what massive a thing it covers. Besides, even as a recognition of a state of the world, one cannot be a poet without the mystical feelings.

>>15779608
honestly anon, they are not the same. in your version there is an entire proposition cut off, and the subject actually changes, as the other anon says

>>15779615
What about it is off?

>>15779649
Please stop samefagging.
You said that what I wrote was a forgery and then proved it wasn't. Just KYS already little kid.

>>15779653
im not him. anyways, not my business.

>>15779655
Even if you feel that somewhere deep down in your feelfeels that my interpretation is off, there's no real difference between these two sentences.
>delighted at last to be seeing what is real, and watching what is true
>rejoices in seeing reality for a space of time and by gazing upon truth
You said that my translation was a "forgery" despite that the Perseus Project is almost verbatim the same.

>>15779645
your post is a concoction of vague assertions and emotive externalizations. mysticism = belief in a ontological or transcendent reality placed beyond the so called "limits" of understanding.
there is no such a thing in plato (or descartes or spinoza), the ideas are perfecly knowable, through logic and reason (not perception).
>>15779653
he is not me, he is just more than 60IQ. again, POST THE FUCKING NAMES, AND THE GREEK TEXT ON THE TRUE MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS

>>15779667
omg look a this fucking demented nigger.
POST THE FUCKING NAMES, AND THE GREEK TEXT ON THE TRUE MATHEMATICAL EQUATIONS

>>15779627
Since you haven't had enough of getting shown out as not knowing anything about Plato.
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D7%3Asection%3D529d#note1
Republic 7 529d
>of material things but we must recognize that they fall far short of the truth(1)
>1. No material object perfectly embodies the ideal and abstract mathematical relation

From the Complete Works edition
>We should consider the decorations in the sky to be the most beautiful and most exact of visible things, seeing that they’re embroidered on a visible surface. But we should consider their motions to fall far short of the true ones

Make sure to take in that translator commentary so you can see the translation I provided to be the superior one and thank me.

>>15779697
>>15779710
>getting BTFO so hard he has to pretend he isn't himself only to get BTFO some more.
Maybe you should have read Republic and Phaedrus and you'd have recognized the quotes I provided.

>>15779710
>omg look a this fucking demented nigger.
You have no self awareness do you?
You're no better than an animal.

>>15779721
shorey (the author of the comment you posted) says a whole different thing from the forgery in your pervious post. in your forgery "plato" says that we have different two mathematical descriptions of the world, a regular one and one "beyond the heavens", while shorey argues that for plato math doesn't "fully apply" to material objects, this is debatable but reasonable.
plato in the passage of the republic you mention says something compatible with shorey's interpretarion and OPPOSITE to your forgery: he says that the perception of the movements of the heavenly bodies is tricky, while the mathematical description is the true one. which is exactely e.g. galileo's stance.
indeed the passage continues as such:
> motions that are really fast or slow as measured in true numbers, that trace out true geometrical figures, that are all in relation to one another, and that are the true motions of the things carried along in them.And these, of course, must be grasped by reason and thought, not by sight.

EXACTLY WHAT IM ARGUING, YOU GODDAMN MENTALLY CHALLANGED LITTLE SHIT.

>>15779834
>keeps calling my translation a forgery despite that it is clearly from Republic
Yawn.
If you'd read the book you'd have actually recognized the sentence immediately, even if not verbatim to translations you're used to. Instead of studying commentary to try and refute my interpretation, you should try reading the actual book.
Retard.
>EXACTLY WHAT IM ARGUING
Not really.
Read more.
>we must use the blazonry of the heavens as patterns to aid in the study of those realities
He is discussing a transcendental realm, as Socrates tends to do, which cannot be measured by sight, touch, or their solidity.

>>15779834
>reason and thought
so, reality, in that passage from the republic is understood by REASON AND THOUGHT, it is not a supernatural thing, it is not a world behind human intelligence, it is knowable, it is "here", not seprated, not transcendent, not mystical. but grasped by REASON AND THOUGHT. not fathomed in revelations, visions, perceptions or traditions.

>>15779859
> He is discussing a transcendental realm
he is discussing a trascendental "realm" in a kantian meaning ( = a priori ) not in your meaning , which is not "transcendnetal" but "transcendent".
and yes, your text is a plain forgery which has nothing to do with what plato wrote or thought.
im sick of your retardation.

>>15779881
of course in your forgery , where the "true eqautions" (lmao) are placed "beyond the heavens", """"""plato"""""" is talking about a supernatural, super-human, transcendnet "realm".

>>15779867
Except it is. The ideal Realm of Being is certainly supernatural, as depicted in the Divided Line, in the Republic, which you didn't read.
“Plato being first and foremost a metaphysician with a sort of religious system would not have us study anything but metaphysics and a kind of mystic religion.” Woodbridge Riley, From Myth to Reason, p. 47

>>15779881
>>15779903
Why does it mean so much to you to try and prove you read books you were objectively and undeniably proven to have not read? Does being called out as an illiterate moron make you feel bad? You can change that, by actually reading the books.

>>15779910
He is clearly mentally unwell.

>>15779915
I just don't get it.
He could have apologized that he didn't recognize the lines from Phaedrus and Republic given that translations can differ in wording - it'd have looked a lot better for him than insisting that my translation which is almost verbatim to Perseus Projects is somehow fake.

>>15779906
>The ideal Realm of Being is certainly supernatural
you fucking retard, there is quote above which directly impinges it.
by the way, that quote is from arthur platt, not woodbridge riley, stop posting random quotes from books you dont know. and stop faking multiple anons.

>>15779903
>As these Forms cannot be perceived by human senses, whatever knowledge we attain of the Forms must be seen through the mind's eye (cf. Parmenides 132a), while ideas derived from the concrete world of flux are ultimately unsatisfactory and uncertain (see the Theaetetus). He maintains that degree of skepticism which denies all permanent authority to the evidence of sense. In essence, Plato suggests that justice, truth, equality, beauty, and many others ultimately derive from the Form of the Good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_of_the_Good
If reading books is too tough for an r-tard like you then at least do a cursory glance at a Wiki to make sure you're not totally embarrassing yourself.

>>15779951
>wah wah I'm so mad that means I'm right
Except clearly you arent.

>>15779951
Your entire premise of Plato evidences you did not understand it.
Calling quotes from Phaedrus and Republic forgeries proves you did not read it.

>>15779924
your quote is A PLAIN FORGERY. you have given no tranlator, no editor, no greek text of the magical "true equations beyond the heavens". it is fake and everyone but you can see it.
you took that fake quote from this fucking blog : https://medium.com/@samwdelorme/nietzsche-in-platos-words-22b6179a1907

this is your knowledge of plato: blogs, froums, shithole websites.

>>15779954
you truely are the most retarded guy on here. blogs, anonymous websites, wikipedia. will you ever provide an actual source?

>>15779978
>no greek text of the magical "true equations beyond the heavens"
Except I did, the translator commentary I provided clearly says that.
>you took that fake quote from this fucking blog
Nope.
The collage of quotes from different works in Plato that give an image of Socrates worldview is from this video put together by the University of British Columbia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqTs77YXTQM
That article takes those lines from the video and uses them, but the video was made 5 years earlier.

If you weren't retarded you'd have been able to tell they were clearly from Republic and Phaedrus, just like I did.
But you're an illiterate who never read either so how could anyone expect you to have been able to identify them.
You literally can't prove me wrong.

>>15779987
>will you ever provide an actual source?
I actually identified the root source of those texts that you couldn't. So there's that.
I do have one distinct advantage over you by actually reading the books I discuss though.
You are a repugnant piece of shit for trying to argue on something you clearly know NOTHING about.

>>15779997
Not him but thanks for finding the direct quotes to prove your argument anon. It must take time to remember what specific parts are where.

>>1578001
I've read these books several times spanning several translations, Taylor, Grube, Jowett, Waterfield.
I know the contents so intimately that it really doesn't take much effort at all to remember where parts are, especially considering the study of Platonism is my favorite subject.
Anon never stood a chance.

>>15780041
meant for
>>15780014

>>15779997
>>15780005
>>15780014
in that video there are not all your "quotes", but in that article they are all there. therefore you didn't take them from the video, which is btw irrelevant, because the quotes are completely fake, one of them is a plain invention, the others are a medley of pieces of phrases by plato rearranged so to give a whole different meaning. which is the idea that plato is talking about a superantural realm inaccessible to the human understanding, which blatantly goes against all platonic doctrines.

>>15780014
>>15780041
lmao you send messages to yourself by mistake, lmao. please, please, please, stop humiliating yourself.

>>15780061
>you didn't take them from the video
I absolutely did.
How would I have known about the video if your desperate searching in Google to identify where they came from didn't bring it up? There is nothing in the quotes which ISN'T in the video, so not only are you an illiterate son of a bitch who's never read Plato's Republic, but you are too retarded to be able to recognize hearing something you just read.
You really are stupid, anon.

>>15780066
Whatever helps you cope with your crippling mental retardation anon.

>>15780067
i also found that video on google while searching your "quotes" , retard. i don't know if there is a common thrid source, but one sure thing is that you havent read plato, you just browse the internet and shitpost on here.

>>15780061
>the idea that plato is talking about a superantural realm inaccessible to the human understanding, which blatantly goes against all platonic doctrines.
Oh, you mean like the Form of the Good?
Sorry, that's from Republic which you obviously hadn't read yet since you can't identify really easy basic bitch quotes from Plato.

>>15780071
not that post RETARD, the one deleted.

>>15780078
>i also found that video on google while searching your "quotes" , retard.
Now you are just lying.
Show me an image of your google history search finding it before I gave it to you.

If you can't be honest now then we will accept that you were wrong and just can't cope with being undeniably, objectively, definitively blown out as retarded - and everything you post is merely cope.
I'm waiting, retard.

>>15780089
>the one deleted.
No post was deleted anon, the last number was deleted.
1578001
15780014
Look at the two numbers, try to use your fingers to count them.
Notice that one is shorter than the other, and there is no post in any thread that is that short.
Looks like once again the retard is you, faggot.

>>15780089
>>15780096
Kek. Embarrassing.

>>15780091
im not posting my chronology, moron. the point is the passage on the equations is not in the video, so the video is not your original source. btw the (you) doesn't prove anything, you could be using a phone and a pc. anyways, im going to signal all your post to a mod, enjoy your ban.

>>15780121
>im not posting
Then we will accept that you were wrong and just can't cope with being undeniably, objectively, definitively blown out as retarded - and everything you post is merely cope.
It would be quite easy to prove you found the video before I posted it to you.
So clearly I did like the video to have known about it.

>>15780121
>too retarded to read Plato
>too retarded to tell the truth
>too retarded to count to 8
You really are special.
Not in a fun way.

>>15780126
im not posting it because i writing by my phone and there are other personal pages on my chronology, you imbecile brainlet.
still, this is a marginal issue since (i repeat it again) the equations delirium is not in the video.

>>15780143
>im not posting it because because because
You can't.
It'd be really easy to screen capture and crop on your phone, but the fact is you can't.
It's already objectively proven you have never read Republic, so... you should just stop posting
>the equations delirium is not in the video.
Only delirium is in your autistism addled brain.
3:04-3:09
Fucking retard.
Holy shit you're stupid.
I already knew you were an abyssal dumbfuck but you continue to impress me with how much of a fucking retarded faggot moron you really can be.

>>15780143
>this is a marginal issue
Then why do you keep embarrassing yourself?
You've been arguing for hours just to be proven wrong time and time again.

You should be thanking others in this thread for having the patience to spoonfeed such an ignorant cock smoking loser as you.

>>15780159
this is the first thing you said rightly, i missed that demential piece.
so, yes, you got your fake quotes from that youtube video and not from the other blog, which is slightly better.
still, you haven't read the republic, otherwise you would have quoted it correctly, in an actual trnalation, and not from a youtube video with fake quites.

>>15780200
btw at first you said it was from phaedrus, and only later you said it was from the republic, which shows how you were quoting from a bunch of fragments taken somewhere on the internet and not an actual book.

>>15780200
>i missed that demential piece
Yeah, you're too stupid to be able to recognize hearing something you had just read 5 minutes prior.
This says A LOT about your intelligence, nothing good though.
>slightly better.
What isn't better is that you lied about having found them. You have no integrity or honesty and you know you lost the argument so you had to lie.
>you haven't read the republic
Clearly I have, considering I could identify what books and where they are from.
You couldn't though, for the obvious reasons.
>in an actual trnalation
I don't think you understand how trnalations work.

>>15780221
>at first you said it was from phaedrus, and only later you said it was from the republic,
Hey, uh, retard.
>Visible ONLY to the eye of the mind, the pilot of the soul delighted at last to be seeing what is real, and watching what is true
Is from Phaedrus.
>>Even the most beautiful physical motions fall far short of the true motions beyond the heavens, which trace out the true mathematical equations of the Universe
Is from Republic.

Stop posting and read them.
> a bunch of fragments
Fragments from what?
What are the fragments from? They had to come from somewhere, and given my ability to identify the specific page and place of where those quotes come one must assume they are in fact from a book.

>>15779035
>3. the forms are the essences, the scholastic quidditates, the universales. that is what make you recognize something for what it is and not something else.

It's the very idea of the thing for its own sake that Plato believed existed in another world outside of this one.

>>15779206
That's not what the Forms are at all... Please stop.

>>15779553
Yes, he did believe that but the Forms aren't just geometrical shapes. They are much more.

>>15779697
>there is no such a thing in plato (or descartes or spinoza), the ideas are perfecly knowable, through logic and reason (not perception).

The Forms are only a shadow of what they are in the world of the Forms. You can't actually know them by your experience in this world only.

>>15780121
All the "Forms" that you see in this world fall short of the actual Forms of the world of Forms. It's not just a vague idea and use of the Form itself in this world that is idea of it.

>>15780222
Your nickname should be "simple" on account of how goddamn simple and fucking stupid you are. I would beat you for having no fucking idea what you are even droning about, you sack of lard shaped shit.

HURR DURR I DONT READ PLATO. HE IS TOOOO HARD. I WATCH A FUCKING YOOTOOBE VIDEO WIF DAZ QUOTES!!! DAT IS MUCH BETTER FOR MY DRUG ADDLED ADHD RETARDED ZOOMER MIND AHHHHHHHHHHH

>>15780353
The irony.

>>15780376
I can't read the actual books, that is too hard!! I WATCH A FUCKING YOOOOOTOOOB VIDEO

>>15771788
>So I ask again, why'd he present himself as if he thought that Plato was some sort of evil?
Career/marketability

>>15780401
If you'd read the books you'd know where they came from. Maybe what you needed was a Youtube video to educate yourself some on Plato.
The Professor who translated and compiled the video teaches Greek Philosophy, so he certainly knows more than you do. Though that's not saying much given what a total retard you are.

>>15780376
I gotta be honest. Primary texts aren't for people like me, man. Those words are big and they make my brain go ouch ouch. I gotta- I gotta- watch a youtube video....

>>15780418
Clearly, considering you didnt understand anything about Plato by making absolutely retarded arguments that started the discussion.
If youd been able to read the books you woupdnt have needed to make such a fool of yourself

>>15780401
>lose argument
>try to throw a tantrum about vapid shit
Truly a faggot and a loser

>>15780472
To be fair, it's a lot of words for a simpleton idiot to digest. Having a condensed network of quotations across the different works which convey the general idea is valuable. Anon clearly didnt have even a basic understanding about the Forms and the Good so he needed such a condensed message so that he might understand them.

>>15780372
You sure are emotionally destroyed over an argument you didn't even have the investment of studying.

>>15780585
Stupid people tend to be very controlled by their emotions, they trump all reason and logic to subhuman things

>>15779867
Are you retarded? Do you think immanence has nothing to do with any mystical experience? EVERY mystic of ANY tradition has had mystical experiences in what way? When they talk about the Love of God, what they are talking about? The egyptians Neters don’t influence the world? You are a complete retarded rationalist following systematized categories in words that go far beyond categorizations.
Oh by the way Plato has always referred to the rational power as DIANOESIS, what do you think this means you braindead retard?

>>15772283
You've picked the dumbest example, Plato doesnt think that there are Forms for artifacts. There's no such thing as the Idea of a flute.

>>15776443
>reducing him and his philosophy to "vitalism" is so cringe and vulgar

No, it's not. It's fitting and people who nitpick at this do so to avoid dealing with the bigger problems of Heidegger's philosophy.

>>15780914
No, he absolutely does. He uses a chair as an example in the actual text. You don't know what you're talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxLloJkjY-s

Heidegger is a cringe crypto-Kantian whose philosophy amounts to a "but who made God?" and then spergs out at anyone who doesn't think of this question like he does (think of Kierkegaardian woo-woo but slightly more atheist and secular) and gives it the same kind of value. People who don't think like him are ruining western civilization and dabbing on Plato provokes a risk-free controversy within modern academy to get people to pay attention to you.

>>15780983
You should have posted this shitty take when the thread wasn't already overflowing with shit.

>>15780893
>DIANOESIS
Great subject, not him though.
Much of the language in Greek is indicative of Plato's well attested fondness for the ... mysterious. Though he says it himself pretty directly and repeatedly.
>>15780952
>in the actual text
lmao that clearly you've never read.

>>15780952
>Dr. Gregory Sadler, phd, Philosophy Core Concepts

Go back.

>>15780472
i didn't lose anything retard.
my argument was that plato has nothing to do with transcendence and that the ultimate reality ( = the ideas,the a priori, the universales) is perfectly knowable in his system.
you think that plato was a gnostic and provided no actual proof for that claim.
i made the dialectical mistake of trying to base your claim on concrete sources and i didn't realize thay you, being too dumb to read , ground all your knowledge of plato on a few youtube videos with fucking FAKE quotes.
>>15780401
thanks anon, but just leave this pathetic moron alone.

>>15781026
Four seconds on Google.

https://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/poetics/context/#:~:text=Plato%20(427%E2%80%93347%20B.C.E.),of%20the%20Form%20of%20Chair.

Plato (427–347 B.C.E.) is notorious for attacking art in Book 10 of his Republic. According to Plato's Theory of Forms, objects in this world are imitations or approximations of ideal Forms that are the true reality. A chair in this world is just an imitation or instantiation of the Form of Chair. That being the case, art is twice removed from reality, as it is just an imitation of an imitation: a painting of a chair is an imitation of a chair which is in turn an imitation of the Form of Chair. Further, Plato argues that art serves to excite the emotions, which can detract from the balanced reasoning that is essential to virtue.

>>15781038
>perfectly knowable in his system
as plato himself says multiple times, even in the omissis of your citation from the politeia

>>15781038
>my argument was that plato has nothing to do with transcendence and that the ultimate reality ( = the ideas,the a priori, the universales) is perfectly knowable in his system
Your argument isnt just wrong. Its retarded. Find the direct quote not some fags YouTube video
>ground all your knowledge of plato on a few youtube videos with fucking FAKE quotes.
The
Absolute
Fucking
IRONY

>>15781044
>sparknotes
The fact you had the other guy providing direct translations and book locations while you're only using YouTube lectures and sparknotes really says it all

>>15781081
>gets proven wrong
>uhhh uhh sparknote duhhh


Like I said, reread the Book 10.

>>15781060
lmao, what? you are the youtube brainlet, not me.
plato clearly says:
1. math describes the motion of the heavenly bodies as it is
2. reason has access to the ultimate truth, which is the idea, not the being, this is why plato is a rationalist and a non-mystic.
here is the ACTUAL quote about what your forgery calls the "true mathematical eqautions of above"
> motions that are really fast or slow as measured in true numbers, that trace out true geometrical figures, that are all in relation to one another, and that are the true motions of the things carried along in them.And these, of course, must be grasped by reason and thought, not by sight

>>15781103
>you are the youtube brainlet,
>not me
The other Youtube video is just literal quotes from the books by a Professor of Greek Philosophy.
Your Youtube video is some fag making a wikipedia article as a video.

Just post the line from the book and quit being a little bitch faggot.

>>15781081
> YouTube lectures
i would dare calling that shit even a lecture. it just sounds like self-help faggotry with relaxing background music and a shit tone of falsifications.

>>15781134
i didn't post any youtube video , simpleton

>>15781140
>>15781146
Dude, why the fuck haven't you posted the quote yet? Are you scared to actually pick up the book and read it?

>>15781159
I think his only knowledge on the subjects he argues about is what he can google and ctrl f.
That's why he gets irrationally mad about translations that cant be googled and calls tenured professors who read Greek frauds.

>>15781159
the two youtube videos were posted by the same retard, you utter mongoloid.

>>15780952
>>15781177
test

>>15781177
If that's so then I apologize for mistaking him for a colossal retard like you. I have no need for lectures on Plato because all the great commentary is over 500 years old( shout out to my boy Marsilio Ficino)
See? It takes a little humility to admit you're wrong, so now its your turn to admit you've never read Plato and have been wrong about everything you've said in this thread.

>>15781191
see? im not him, you waste of oxygen.

>>15781199
Autism.

>>15781177
Still waiting for that direct book quote and location.

>>15781201
> autism

>>15781140
You don't know shit.

"You can't have the Form of a flute."

Yes, you can. You literally can.

>>15781215
that is what i wrote here >>15772283

>>15781199
>phoneposter
>literal sperg
>shit opinions on classic lit
Cringe and gaypilled

>>15779531
Based ESL retard

>>15781029
To the YouTube comments section?

>>15781221
It genuinely angers me how confident the other guy was when he was dead fucking wrong. If you do not read Plato then do not fucking comment on him. Also the vid was agreeing with you and backing you up so you should stfu.

>>15781159
>>15781172
>>15781211
legend has it, anon still hasn't read plato to provide a direct quote from him to this day

>>15772113
>, and held plato to be responsible for the rationalist and anti-ontological turn in philosophy.
>while the second part about plato is true (and commonplace)

he never striked me as a "rationalist", he believed in souls and also said that he had a daemon follow his everyday actions

>>15781722
The world may never see anon read a book before he starts an argument over it on 4chan when google fails him

>>15771757
>trytosayintelligentthingsinsteadofpurebullshitalldaylongsfrage.
VersucheetwasintelligenteszusagenanstellereineScheißedenganzentagfrage
At least use the proper terminology. Heidegger's terminology doesn't translate well