/lit/ - Literature

>>15767994
>This is determinism, and heresy.
Says who?

I am a determinist, you faggot in a dress

>>15768035
The pope

>>15768052
Then he is wrong

>>15767994
>a) It is no longer in Peter's power not to deny Jesus thrice. This is determinism, and heresy.
but it’s not implied that everyone is always predetermined. But even if they were, you still have to show why it’s heresy.

>>15768096
It is, because God always knows what everyone is going to do.

>>15767994
Jesus was just stating a point of fact. He might as well have said, “The sun will rise tomorrow.” Is it the choice of the sun to rise? No, just as it was not Peter’s choice that he would deny Christ. Peter himself said he wouldn’t. Peter consciously chose not to deny Christ in that moment, but he did it anyway.

>>15767994
This is the kind of autism that created the Pelagians and all of Augustine's mistakes. God is above time, just because he knows what you're going to choose doesn't mean you didn't have a choice.

>>15767994
fuck atheists

>>15768688
Checked. I don't see why this is so hard for people to grasp

>If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/.
Learn to read reltards

>>15768759
/his/ sucks

"We are all connected to the Supreme Being's throne by a flexible chain, which detains without enslaving us.
The most admirable in the universal order of things is the action of free beings under the divine hand. Freely slaves, they operate simultaneously, voluntarily and necessarily: they truly make what they want, but without being able to perturbate the grande scheme. Each one of these beings occupies the center of a sphere of activity, whose diameter varies according to the Eternal geometer, who's able to stretch, restrict, stop or direct the will, without altering its nature.
In the works of Man, everything is poor as the author; the views are short, the means rigid, the movements burdensome and the results monotonous. In the Divine works, the richness of the infinite unveil to the minor element; its power operates on action: in its hands, everything is flexible, nothing resists; to him everything is mean, even the obstacle: and the irregularities produced by the action of the free beings come to integrate the general order.
If we imaginate a watch in which every spring varies continuously in force, weight, dimension, form and position, and, however, showed invariably the time, it would form some idea of the action of free beings in relation to the plans of the Creator" - Beginning of De Maistre's Considerations on France

>>15767994
Jesus is able to make a judgement on Peter's character; he understands that as a human Peter is fallible and can make the certain judgement that he will deny Christ is Lord purely based off of his character and humanity. It's no different than telling a gambling addict going to a casino that he will lose all of his money he takes inside.

>>15768071
okay heretic

>>15769037
The Pope is a man. Man is fallible. Therefore, the Pope is fallible.

>>15767994
he had the power to not deny Christ, but he bitched out and Christ knew he was going to in advance.

>>15769068
I was just stirring shit.
I don't actually believe in jewish folklore

>>15768921
based. the way i always think of free will is that its about choices. we get to choose between a and b at any given fork in the road, ultimately between heaven and hell. its not like we can all just go be napolean if we try really hard

>>15767994
It's possible to know someone, retard.

>>15769052
fallible means "able to fail"
no man can fail to attain death.
man is infallible in some ways.
therefore, the pope can be infallible.

>>15769101
PREEEEEAAACCCHHHHHHHH

I'm a determinist, there is no problem desu.
There are harder problems to solve in the New Testament for free will cucks than determinism, such as when Paul describes at length how God shapes men for his own purposes, both into good and evil men

>>15767994
Do I need to solve this in order to be Christian? I don’t see how. If I were to try I would quote free will theodicy and build a divine command in the nature of miracles in order to help me but there are more glaring problems to Christians than free will.

>>15767994
it is very easy problem to solve.

problem is when stupid faggots have nothing to do. they must be entertained, or they will riot like retard lives matter and will want reparations to get meds.

the best/worst shit elites ever came up with making stupid faggots occupied is bible. people may endlessly discuss and argue how they did not understand something in the bible properly, denying their own mortality.

>>15768151
>Peter consciously chose not to deny Christ in that moment, but he did it anyway.
The glory of Christianity: dogma, that is, enforced (at times violently) belief in obvious logical absurdities.

>>15767994
It is (b), yet, God (Jesus) is able to predict perfectly Peter's free choice.

It is like a father that knows so well his son that he can predict he will do drugs, even though the son HAS the choice not to do it (not a perfect analogy, but it helps)

>>15767994
Jesus has knowledge of the future because as God he exists outside of time, his knowledge is not temporal but always present and immediate.
Peter performs his acts within time.
There is no problem.

>>15767994
>wasn't true at the time
Here's the mistake in your premise. It's true outside of time, where every event is present and immediate.

>>15769829
>predict
God doesn't predict, God knows. God has knowledge of all events from the outside of time. God's knowledge isn't tensed, all events and things are immediate and present to God. There are no past or future events to God, everything is present.

>>15768151
Peter performs his acts. God knows what acts Peter performs. Peter performs his acts within time. God's knowledge of Peters acts are outside of time and untensed. The acts Peter performs in the future of any particular event, like an utterance, are not future to God outside of time, the events future to Peter are always present and known to God.

>>15767994
He's God.
But i'll play along.

Peter by willfully fulfilling Jesus's prophecy validates Jesus's claim as God.
This preserves both determinism of omniscience and freewill of Peter.

I'd also remind you that God possess omni-control over His omniscience/omnipotence/omnipresence. God that cannot control Himself and all His ability at-will is not God. Even if it leads to contradictions and paradoxes.
Food for thought.

Jesus said to Peter "Thou Shalt Deny Me Thrice"
Peter obeys his Lord, whether or not it was his original plan to deny him.
Easy

>>15767994
Serious students of the Bible do not believe that things “just happen.” Christians reject fatalism and godless determinism. Rather, they understand that a wise, holy, good, and sovereign God has control of every detail of life (Matthew 10:29–30). The man who does not really want God to have this control or who despises the truth of God’s sovereignty does not love God and does not want God in his life. But God is sovereign, and He cannot deny Himself.

>>15767994
c) it is in Peter's power not to deny Jesus thrice, but he does it anyway and Jesus knew what a weakling Peter is cause he knows Peter better than Peter knows himself