/lit/ - Literature

>>15767534
Do you always argue with the strawmen inside your head, is that just because you haven't taken your meds?

>>15767534
what do i have to read so i can successfully mimick these people?

>Read a book that wasn't published within the last ten years every once in a while.
You should do that, and then make a thread about it. That way you won't need to make shit threads like this.

>>15767552

Are you seriously trying to tell me that this description doesn't match a single person in the humanities or from the humanities to DSA pipeline right now? If so, I'd appreciate if you'd set me straight on what I'm getting wrong.

>>15767553

General consensus right now seems to be Robin DiAngelo

>>15767555

Okay but only because you got trips.

>>15767568
>They're trying to replace the upper middle class sinecures they're losing out on with getting paid for the "emotional labor" of explaining people how to not be racist or sexist
I find it implausible that academics think they could "replace" upper middle-class sinecures when they get paid like absolute shit, have zero job security and spend years, even decades working towards a PhD with no guarantee of a job at the end of it. You have a very skewed perception of academia, its definitely not the hardest job in the world but most of the postgrads I know are financially struggling, overstressed and miserable.

>>15767679

>most of the postgrads I know are financially struggling, overstressed and miserable

Which is why they're trying to emotionally blackmail society into paying them to explain to them all how to be "antiracist." My claim is that they're trying to replace the sinecures they were promised would be afforded to them by going to college, but started disappearing in 2008 as the erosion of the middle class escalated precipitously during the great recession.

>>15767715
That's only in junk departments that cater to retards, like English, Sociology, etc.

>>15767739

Okay now specify the humanities departments I can go where the current wave of tumblr intersectional feminism doesn't enjoy complete hegemonic dominance and people exercise their academic freedom to openly criticize it on a regular basis.

>>15767534
academics are the nigger of the world, and they should swap places with working class people and/or be put into labour camps

>>15767679
That's op's point. Over educated academics feel that their degrees should give them a higher rank and status then the plebs, but they make no money and live in some ridiculous hovel with 5 other overeducated dupes, hence moralizing and wokeness as a means of establishing status and rank over the working class

>>15767790

This anon gets it

>>15767752
Philosophy and Classics. Beyond those two, generally avoid the humanities. It's been infected by French postmodern horseshit for many decades.

>>15767835

>Philosophy

I can't remember the last time I saw a single philosopher criticize or even offer the mildest push back on any of this shit. If anything, philosophers are paralyzed with fear of being accused of sexism (because they have less women in the field than mathematicians) or racism. I've heard stories of APA conferences giving out preferred pronoun stickers to everyone. Most continental leaning philosophy programs in the US seem to have completely retooled themselves into intersectional orthodoxy production factories.

>Classics

Can't necessarily speak to this one. Can you provide me with a sample of cases where classics professors are pushing back on any of this stuff or trying to defend their discipline against accusations that we have to cancel Homer because the Odyssey is sexist?

>>15767715
>>15767534
the motivation for their evangelism is not economic

it's completely compulsive
they're coerced into this behavior, and all of their behavior
they have no free will let alone an attention span sufficient for a coherent train of thought

they're captives in a prison and reflexively try to blame whatever target looks most likely in their narrow vision for their malaise
but they have no idea of an organic life and have no idea what's paining them or why

it's a crime to ignore the necessity to kill them all

>>15767891

OP here. I don't totally disagree with your post but I'm talking more about the causes of their positions than the motivations for it.

>>15767898
the cause is very simple
it's what the jews programmed them to do
they are not human beings
they are empty bodies that enact the will of another race

>>15767715

Stop saying sinecures. Postgrads are not the retards doing this, it's the commodification of education and the rise of the "manager as a career" mentality, including ridiculous HR departments. The good corporations moved on from this stupid bullshit about twenty years ago, but medium-sized businesses like Universities are going to take a very, very long time to catch up, if ever.

>>15767790
>>15767785

Good posts.

>>15767880

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/03/why-everything-is-politicized-even-though-most-americans-hate-it/274359/

>>15767912

OP here.

> it's the commodification of education and the rise of the "manager as a career" mentality, including ridiculous HR departments.

This is a good point. I think there's a lot to be said that this in combination with the demand to come up with a reason that the humanities are "productive" or "useful" also had a powerful effect on the development of this bullshit. Towards the end of the 2000's there was all kinds of talk about axeing humanities departments because they are "useless" and "what are you going to do with that."

Very little talk about that now that the humanities are the vanguard in the war against the four olds.

This atlantic article isn't bad. In the post you're responding to though, I'm specifically asking for examples of classics professors or departments pushing back on this stuff. Op-eds, hot takes, and think pieces criticizing this stuff are a dime a dozen.

>>15767880
>I can't remember the last time I saw a single philosopher criticize or even offer the mildest push back on any of this shit.
No, there's been a tremendous amount of pushback. See e.g., “Are women adult human females?” by Alex Byrne (January, 2020)
https://philpapers.org/rec/BYRAWA

The main philosophy blog, Leiter Reports, constantly attacks what it calls "The New Infantilism" sweeping the academy in general:
leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/the-new-infantilism/
leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/academic_freedom/

It's definitely an ongoing battle, but the 'woke' retards haven't conquered Philosophy yet.

>>15767534
>They're trying to replace the upper middle class sinecures they're losing out on with getting paid for the "emotional labor" of explaining people how to not be racist or sexist
Pretty sure that pic is supposed to be a (bad) joke.

>>15767534
innovation, demand, economy in decline. your children you produce now, what will they become? only those toxic idiots who poison life of other people, and call it a service.

>>15767953

Do you seriously think anyone who wasn't at a technical school like MIT would have gotten away with publishing that paper? If you're sure they would have, then you're more sure than I am. If you had used the adjective "some" instead of "tremendous" pushback I would have been more inclined to agree with your assessment of the situation.

>the 'woke' retards haven't conquered Philosophy yet

Could've fooled me, especially since part of your post contains blogs from the Leiter report specifically documenting the exact takeover of the discipline I am describing. There might be a lot of people reading the Leiter report and nodding along, but Leiter was already more or less considered a crank and persona non grata for various scandals that happened with him even before this shit became a serious problem. It doesn't matter if 90% of the people in philosophy departments have lots of gripes and reservations about this crap. I'm sure historians have serious gripes and reservations about this shit too. Most of them will never say shit in public about it though. Exceptions that prove the rule don't prove your point, they prove mine.

>>15767989

I'm aware that the pic is (very clearly) a joke. It's a joke about a very real phenomenon though. Countless examples of people demanding financial renumeration for emotional labor. That is what the joke is making fun of in the first place--why it even counts as a "joke" in the first place.

>>15767953
I am surprised to see this. positively.

>>15768007
>Do you seriously think anyone who wasn't at a technical school like MIT would have gotten away with publishing that paper?
Are you joking? MIT has one of the top departments for Philosophy in the world. And the wokeness cancer affects every university equally; it's not confined to schools without an engineering department or something.

>Could've fooled me, especially since part of your post contains blogs from the Leiter report specifically documenting the exact takeover of the discipline I am describing. There might be a lot of people reading the Leiter report and nodding along, but Leiter was already more or less considered a crank and persona non grata for various scandals that happened with him even before this shit became a serious problem.
You've never been to graduate school in Philosophy, so you don't know what's up. Leiter is a highly respected figure in the field with a huge network of powerful friends. His views reflect the discipline as a whole. The deranged moonbats screeching about transgender issues are nonentities in the lowest rung of the profession, in unranked departments. The idea is to nip this shit in the bud, before it spreads.

>>15768007
in every joke there's a part of a joke. what is joke today tomorrow will be sad reality. lol.

>>15767945
>the demand to come up with a reason that the humanities are "productive" or "useful"
what demand?
from the people hiring them?

this is the most micromanaged command economy of all time
they are political soldiers specifically trained to take over the institutions
the demand for them was guaranteed before they were born

the jew controls the central bank, therefore anyone that depends on its money is ruled by the jew
the entire financial system is just a scam to incentivize the slaves to enact jewish agenda as handed down from a small council
they control every institution and their fingerprints are all over every change for the worse

what is your thesis here? you are just whining about the obvious
it's like you're begging for an explanation but not the one you don't want to hear, whether its true or not

>>15768007
Have you seen what a fucking total joke the MIT Media Lab is? MIT is trash.

>>15768098
>nip this shit in the bud, before it spreads
too late
the next generation of sleepers is being trained to replace this generation and no one is stopping it

how can you "nip it in the bud" when you refuse to acknowledge where it's coming from?
>An old jew leading the defense against the agenda his entire people work for
it's unbelievable you so completely ignorant about the extent of jewish overrepresentation and the clearly jewish origin of these ideas, evident not only from multiple think tanks openly advocating for this comprised of 90%+ jews but from the character of jewish culture itself

you are a fucking animal

>>15768137
Ah, so you're just a crackpot. Carry on then.

>>15768141
>a huge network of powerful friends
have any names?
should we take bets how many are jewish?

just admit it, you're a fucking kike

>>15768098

>the wokeness cancer affects every university equally

Really? Even the Catholic universities where they teach nothing but Thomism?

>The deranged moonbats screeching about transgender issues are nonentities in the lowest rung of the profession, in unranked departments.

Would you care to refer me to the last place where you publicly defended this view using your actual name and post in that case? I can wait if you need to go and do it in order to prove me wrong.

>>15768106

>what demand?
from the people hiring them?

From the bean counters running the universities that threaten to axe humanities departments every year (like they're currently doing at IW).

>>15768121

No, but I wouldn't be shocked if MIT is trash.

>>15768181
>the bean counters running the universities that threaten to axe humanities departments every year
when have they ever done that
they always end up cutting budget from STEM

>>15768204

Gr8 b8 m8 I rate it 8/8

buy bitcoin

>>15768214
>BUT MY BIAS
what are you even talking about
they are refactoring humanities departments into SJW bullshit and there is no lack of funding

>>15767534
Sure, there's some of that going on, but there's also a much more fundamental paradigm at work: There is a 'cold' war against white people. Non-whites know this, and they laugh about it amongst themselves and happily anticipate their children inheriting the West. Unfortunately, many whites don't realize this and — being trained to surrender their racial consciousness — buy into the oppressor narrative and paradoxical religion of equality/diversity. Other whites simply don't want to risk what they have by sticking their heads above the parapet, and then there are traitorous whites who seek profit and status by way of selling out their own ethnos.

Yeah, I agree that useless academics and bureaucrats routinely manufacture problems for their own benefit (sadly this is common in many useful professions as well). In this case, however, there is a very real conflict of interests beneath the 'industry' layer.

>>15768251

That's only a very recent development though (and that is a point I already made earlier in the thread about *why* there has been a massive shift to constantly shilling SJW bullshit) and humanities departments are still usually always the first on the chopping block because they have the fewest majors as most people (correctly) assume that humanities degrees are not good paths to careers.

Sorry if I assumed that the content of your response displayed such astounding ignorance of the facts that I didn't think it deserved a dignified response (just kidding, I'm not sorry at all).

>>15768272
yet you have no examples
interesting

>>15768296

Oh I'm sorry I wasn't under the impression that you were interested in those, seeing as how you were not providing any examples yourself.

http://dailynous.com/2016/08/05/philosophy-department-ipfw-threat-guest-post-charlene-elsby/

http://dailynous.com/2017/03/24/university-zagreb-philosophy-threat/

https://conversationalist.org/2020/05/28/liberty-university-eliminates-its-philosophy-department-furthering-the-christian-rights-anti-intellectual-backlash/

https://conversationalist.org/2020/05/28/liberty-university-eliminates-its-philosophy-department-furthering-the-christian-rights-anti-intellectual-backlash/

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/mar/21/open-university-plans-major-cuts-to-number-of-staff-and-courses

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/mar/29/war-against-humanities-at-britains-universities

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/social-sciences-and-humanities-faculties-close-japan-after-ministerial-intervention

https://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/2015/sep/25/japans-humanities-chop-sends-shivers-down-academic-spines

This is just what I found in 30 seconds of googling. I'm not inclined to spend more time on it because I think you're a complete fucking moron. If you'd like to prove me wrong, give me examples proving that STEM departments are more under thread than humanities departments.

No rush if it takes you longer than 30 seconds. Go ahead. I'll wait.

>>15768098

Where did you go anon? Are you busy publicly challenging wokethedoxy so that you can post your example of you doing so from within a philosophy department?

>>15768335
100% this. I know history departments got crushed post 2008 recession and never recovered. The humanities are trying to mount a come back in the most toxic manner possible but STEM will probably carry the day in the long run.

>>15767534
i don't get it
what is this and why are you describing me?

>>15767715
>>15767790
>Which is why they're trying to emotionally blackmail society into paying them to explain to them all how to be "antiracist."
>hence moralizing and wokeness as a means of establishing status and rank
They're not "trying" to do or assert anything, universities are run as businesses and they have a market to satisfy. Plenty of postgrads get burned out because you have to work with progressive blinders on in order to get tenure and not cancelled. Most of the time its the students who overlook the nuances to these discussions because they're already going to uni with these preconceptions in mind and money in hand. Depending on where you study not all academics are as radically left or progressive as you might think, but intellectual honesty rarely pays the bills.

>>15768465

So your assertion is that zero percent of the people involved in this shit are actually doing it for any reason other than to just cynically fly under the radar? Did everyone get meme'd into thinking everyone besides them believes this shit so they have to play along to get along?

I think we both know that you don't seriously believe that. Even if mos people really are being "cynical" about it that doesn't change anything. Cynicism is the default mode of relating to any institution in society and has been for at least almost an entire century. So yes they are "trying" to do something. But keep telling yourself that if it helps you feel better about the state of the academy.

>>15767534
For my undergrad I studied poli sci and English. I never once felt this way. Most if not all my professors across a wide variety of fields strongly encouraged us to challenge theories and present our own opinion, so long as we kept an open mind to other opinions. That is the point of university, by the way, not to just sit around and circle jerk about things you already believe.

It sounds to me like you were in some sort of confirmation bias feedback loop, where you intentionally looked for areas that could offend you, and by their nature of existing, were offended. I am a grad student now, and as >>15767679 pointed out, I am generally miserable, broke, and stressed beyond reason. I continue not because I have some stupid dream about my future, but because I love my studies. My research interests me. My career interest me. Once my grad program is over (next year), I will be less stressed, less financially burdened, and generally less miserable. These are small sacrifices to pay.

You just couldn't hack it.

Carlsbad decrees when?

>>15768537

>Most if not all my professors

Who are not millenials.

>You just couldn't hack it.

Thanks for saving me the trouble of proving my point about millennial academics being poisoned by a smug and totally undeserved superiority complex. Just because I criticize a group of people (which, why are you so offended if you don't identify yourself as matching the description I am drawing in any way?) you assume that I must be unsuccessful somehow or even an academic myself (hence proving literally the first point in my post about how many millennial academics these days primarily traffic in lazy ad homenim arguments).

I'm not expecting you to be totally convinced but I'd encourage you to mull it over and consider developing even a modicum of self awareness at some point in the future.

Now then. I have a serious question.

>It sounds to me like you were in some sort of confirmation bias feedback loop

Can you give me a list of claims that I made that are obviously incorrect and point to some examples that refute them? Surely, if my narrative about millennial academics is so completely deluded, then it shouldn't be very difficult for you to do so.

>>15768600
I couldn't care less, sorry. I didn't even read your post, I just commented based on your image.

Sowell have written about this. Worth reading.

>>15768537
>encouraged us to challenge theories and present our own opinion, so long as we kept an open mind to other opinions. That is the point of university, by the way, not to just sit around and circle jerk about things you already believe.
t. coincidentally has exactly the set of beliefs allowed in university

>>15767568
Reddit spacing time

>>15768624

I appreciate your honesty.

This certainly makes me feel a lot better about the soundness of my hypothesis vis a vis how fucking stupid most of you people are then.

>>15768651

"Reddit spacing" is a meme made up by redditors to try and fit in because only a redditor would know about the mechanics of how to post on reddit.

>>15768600

I am >>15767912. You aren't helping prove your point with purple prose and defensive bullshit. Speak simpler and look for truth instead of wallowing in ad homs and strawmen and crying about rhetoric. I agree with your argument, but you are awful at presenting it. >>15768537 is not being arrogant, he's demanding a rigorous case instead of circumstantial, anecdotal, or simply made-up evidence.

>>15768106
>>15768137
>>15768157

Kill yourself, tout-suite.

>>15768676
tout de suite*

>>15768665
This.


If any one should triple space out of consideration for the reader and to further separate ideas.

>>15768676

>>15768537 is not being arrogant

Could have fooled me with all the

>I didn't even read your post

and

>You just couldn't hack it

Also not sure where in that post he was asking for a rigorous case. It just seems like he was categorically denying that he believed my view on things conformed to his experience. Maybe my reading comprehension skills have declined over the years.

A rigorous case? I do like the sound of it. It's difficult to know where to start though with someone who is able to look at the current state of universities today and can still claim that they have completely no idea of what I'm talking about. Not sure what kind of common ground there would be for me to present any evidence that they would even accept in the first place. At least that has been my experience with it.

Also, insofar as (as I claimed in the OP) I am making a claim about the (non-conscious) motivations and not explicitly stated aims and goals of a group of people, I don't know what kind of rigor is to be expected in the argument. Also as I stated in the OP, I'm not inclined to feel like I'm being unfair insofar as the type of person I am trying to describe (it baffles me that anyone could be at a university right now and not notice these people crawling around all over the place) primarily seems to traffic in "circumstantial" "anecdotal" evidence, and "autoethnographies" of "lived experience."

If there's a particular claim under dispute then, if you wish, I'd be happy to attempt to make a more rigorous case for it.

>you are awful at presenting it

Fair

>>15768769
I'm >>15768537.

Don't take what I said personally. I don't know you, so it's impossible to be personal. What I'm saying is that we've heard this story many times, and for my time at three different universities across 2 states, I did not experience what you did. Your claims are valid, and I think the real difference is what institution we went to, but I don't think you're tackling the issue rationally.

No one here really knows what you want us to say. You've made up your mind prior to the start of the thread, which is evident from your OP. It's a rant post. What more do you want?

>>15768811

While I appreciate your willingness to continue the conversation and will reciprocate by turning it down a notch on my agitation, I want to point out that it seems like the goal post has moved now from

>you were in some sort of confirmation bias feedback loop

to

>we experienced different things

Both are obviously possible. My only goal in the OP was to describe a certain (in my view, predominant) type of millennial academic, and yes, vent some frustrations about them. I'm well aware that this is not a universal type. However, I also don't know what your definition of

>tackling the issue rationally

involves. And, frankly, given my experience, it comes off as though people trying to claim my account has zero to nil relation to reality are trying to (to borrow a popular phrase among this crowd) "gaslight" me into thinking I'm completely crazy and seeing things that aren't there (i.e., "stuck in a confirmation bias feedback loop"). This is something that these people do all of the time. They also are in the habit of acting like sentences and statements you are making are completely unintelligible in order to dodge questions. Tactics like this make it very hard for me to feel inclined to respond to anyone who espouses a view that seems totally off base from any picture of how things actually seem as if they are anything other than either

a) totally deluded themselves

or

b) trying to gaslight me into believing something other than what is the case because it is convenient for them

>No one here really knows what you want us to say

I don't care what you say. Ideas should run free, like foxes in the wild. Agree with me. Disagree with me. Debate me. Meme at me. It's all equal to me. I reserve the right to get irritated at stupid and disingenuous arguments though. If that results in a brief misunderstanding then oh well. That's just the internet.

I will try to make an effort to admit I am wrong where I can be shown to be in error though. I'm not that entirely disagreeable or unreasonable. Idk that's just where I'm coming from.

>>15767679
>most of the postgrads I know are financially struggling, overstressed and miserable.
Good, fuck them.

>>15767534
Ironically, construction workers and nurses are not inherently more skilled than service workers. It’s just training. My professors had a genuine talent as educators which very few people have. People like you are worse than incels. It’s ok to be an achiever and have talent as long as that talent isn’t put towards something absolutely unproductive like finance.

>>15767568
>humanities to DSA pipeline

You need to learn how political economy works. Please, read a book.

>>15767790
This is entirely not his point. The dude is saying every millennial prof is some DSA backed SJW shill. And besides, good educators should be rewarded more than any service and trade industry job.

This has gotta be one of the dumbest threads I’ve seen in a long time. I unironically prefer the blatant fascists, poltards, and tradfags.

>>15767534
How much of your worldview is just a massive cope for getting bad grades in high school and bombing the easiest standardized test of all time? You probably cower behind some pathetic excuse like your undiagnosed ADHD too. People are smarter than you. People are better than you. Get over it. Don’t people like you love respecting true authority?

>>15769711

Your professors obviously weren't talented enough to teach you enough reading comprehension to notice that I wasn't talking about all academics in general or anybody in their generation.

>>15769728

What exactly am I misunderstanding about "political economy" that is leading me to the delusion that the DSA are a bunch of half educated morons?

>>15769740

OP here. Not seeing how those two things are mutually exclusive.

>>15769750

What's the matter? Too real for you?

>>15769767

I'm not a polfag and you're just assuming that I didn't do well in academics in order to cope with the fact that I obviously got under your skin a bit.

>>15767911
>>15767898
a goyim golem, if you will.

>>15769767
Wow look at the logical fallacies on this one!

>>15769778
It’s clear from your perception of what is taught in colleges and believed by these millennial academics that you haven’t been inside an academic institution ever nor do you know any true millennial academics. I don’t get worked up about much, but American Higher Ed is really the only thing I’m proud of in my country, i it’s not without its many flaws, but they certainly aren’t the ones you raise, and you don’t have any right to criticize it. It just bugs me to see the ivory tower try to be torn down by those who can’t even get in. And I’m not even an academic.

>>15769838
Yes, it’s sad that an accurate description Of you is full of logical fallacies.

>>15769771
Your pic construes all profs in general, but the main problem is you are having a handful of twitter voices speak for all academics.

You think the DSA is comprised of pseuds when it’s leadership is workers and majority of its constituents are as well, and it has a well established history in the states. Just because it’s a meme in some twitter bio of a millennial academic doesn’t delegitimize it as a political program.

>>15768537
More like your 'opinions' are the status quo so it was never a problem for you. These days you literally get fired for someone associated with you having a no-no opinion.

>>15769771
I was making two separate points, but it’s clear you have a flawed perception of how people should be paid for what they do, and more importantly who funds them. The DSA is not able to shill anyone given their means.

>>15769839

You're just wrong about every factual assertion you made but thanks for proving my point that 99% of you faggots don't know how to defend yourselves other than by making ad homenim arguments.

>>15769871

I'm sorry. I don't think you understood me. When I asked you to explain what I'm misunderstanding about political economy, I meant what I said.

And no. The massive surge in popularity of the DSA in the trump era is all from half educated millenial dipshits. Not working class people.

>>15769880
Your opinions are just oppositional reactions to the status quo because it doesn’t benefit you.

>>15769884

Sorry. What exactly do you think it is that I'm claiming about the DSA? I literally don't understand how this post is related to any of the passing comments I made about your precious, totally not a LARP DSA.

>>15769893
My opinions are honesty, consistency, and coherency. And I'm not American or a braindead W*stoid like yourself so it has no relation to me. Your entire culture is evil and anti-intellectual. The world will rejoice when you are reduced to a shithole and have no power. And I won't have to sort through your braindead bourgeois pretend politics to find reason in the unreasonable flavour of the week fear-sperging.

>>15769917
Are you OP? Someone said that the DSA is funding the rise in these SJW “brainwash” on campuses. That is untrue.

>>15769943
I find that hard to believe, but if you are good for you. I’ll be the one laughing when it all goes to shit. Though our higher ed system is objectively the best in the world, so keep that in mind.

>>15769952
I am OP but I didn't say that. Whoever said that is a moron.

>>15769943
Also though man, I can tell you that whatever your politics are, they are inauthentic. I don’t know of single authentic ideology that can exist in our globalized world. It honestly sounds like yours is rooted in your hatred for the West, ergo reactionary, ergo inauthentic.

>>15769963
>Though our higher ed system is objectively the best in the world, so keep that in mind.
>career opportunities and business-universities mean good education
Good education is mostly up to unyielding standards and culturally-imparted discipline. That is the opposite of your 'objectively' best system. Your culture cannot entertain the needed discipline and thoughtfulness to have good education or intellectual integrity.

>>15769943
Come to think of it, your beliefs are exactly how I first phrased them-opposition to the western status quo.

>>15769981
>authentic ideology
Incoherent concept. But something you would be obsessed with, naturally.

>>15769986
I really need to know what your beliefs are, because I have this weird feeling you’re some kind of Islamic fundamentalist, and for you to say these things while holding those beliefs-well that would be the funniest thing to ever happen to me on here.

>>15767880
>Classics
Classics major here–

desu, Classics is somewhat insulted from this shit compared to other disciplines largely because it tends to be 20 years behind everything in trends or else just completely doing its own thing (this happened with intertextuality studies, Classic just developed this field fairly independently, then other types of literature studies started getting on board and we ended up being accidentally ahead of the curve).

There are SJW types trying to make Classics about race/gender, largely by talking about how the Classical tradition has been used to justify various racist/sexist/colonialist etc. ideologies. The most prominent is probably Eidolon, which is prominent in large part because it's editor is Mark Zuckerberg's sister.

As a side note, Donna Zuckerberg is a pretty bad Classicist who is known (aside from her brother) largely for pluralising a greek adverb in a publication, apparently not realising why adverbs don't have number. The tragedy here is it distracted from the piece it was in, which was a hostile, and laughably misguided, review of a commentary of Pseudo-Euripides' Rhesus.

Back to the subject, I don't really know how much pushback there is against SJW type scholarship. Postcolonial studies and classical reception were really big when I was in undergrad (I'm siloed as a postgrad, so ignore that shit), and I think Classics is headed in a bad direction.

>>15769992
Brilliant refutation, honestly. Want me to spoonfeed you the authors you need to read to understand what I’m talking about, or are you capable of using google?

>>15767552
cool gaslighting, Mr. Kafka
we see this garbage every day, trying to lie to our face is only fooling yourself

>>15769991
No actually I personally benefit from it. I just have a thing for constant intellectual refinement and integrity, which the contemporary West (and perhaps always though that's depressing to think about) is strictly against. It's a sickly and bloated culture, and most Westerners calling themselves intellectuals or academics are diseased, pathologically dishonest and destructive. The thing I like cannot exist in that.

>>15770006
Would you have a problem with someone comparing Herodotus’s ethnographic model in the histories to a framework of cultural relativism in an anthropology class in 2020?

>>15770011
You do realize that the West is the source of all the refinement you desire (which in and of itself is a god-awful reason to be a reader) and the only reason a person like you can have any access to it?

>>15770011
You know, Stravinsky once said that intellectuals have no taste. I think you could benefit from taking his advice to heart.

>>15767534
Who honestly goes into the humanities thinking they will climb the ranks of society, besides fags who are already rich?

>2020
>still not taking the STEMpill

NGMI

>>15770073
Wait, you guys aren’t all fags who are already rich?

>>15770093
Apparently not

>>15770044
I probably would as I don't see Herodotus' framework as relativistic, but more a Greek centre with increasing barbarism as you get to the periphery.

There is that famous quote where he basically expresses cultural relativism, if I recall correctly, over funeral customs(?).

But, when you look at his ethnography, it's basically a binary between the Greek and the barbarous. Greek is the norm (and at the geographical centre), and then the further you get away from Greece the more barbarous the people get and in broadly the same ways. For example they have looser sexual mores, often raise their children communally, often don't have to work to grow food but nature just sorta provides it, climate is extreme too and so on...

To some extent, that's from a Greek perspective and so could be argued to be relativistic in that way. But, I'm not sure it's truly relative because people at disparate parts of the world often exhibit similar traits which are clearly in opposition to the Greek way of doing things, so it's more a binary to me.

>>15770254
>binary
Fuck, spectrum, and Greek and barbarous are the two poles.... I'm tried and a few gins deep, pls be patient

>>15767785
this i can't wait to put them against the wall when we get temporary permanent communism

So does this thread prove white fragility?

>>15770254
Yeah I think it’s 3.38, custom is king.

It’s weird though, I have the exact opposite interpretation of the histories. I feel like he’s writing it as a forewarning to the Athenians to show them how they are all too similar to the Persians. In the aftermath of Salamis and Marathon, they are becoming the same sort of insatiable hegemon that the Persians have always been. From Cyrus’s defeat by the Messagetae in Book one all the way up to Xerxes defeat, the defining characteristic of the Persians is that they always want more, and are destroyed for it. I think H sees this same tendency in the Athenians, and doesn’t want them to follow it to its end. At the same time though, I think he has a real faith in democracy to be a countervailing force to this imperialism, which is why he doesn’t want Athens to fail.

>>15770254
It’s interesting that in this spectrum, you bring of sexual mores as an example of what’s barbarous. Take for example tbd Babylonian marriage market. I think Herodotus praises this system because it has a sort of logical symmetry to it: each man is fitted with the woman he deserves most. To a Greek (let’s say a mainland Athenian, as herodotus was Ionian iirc), this would be an example of a loose sexual practice, or at the very least a custom antithetical to their own, but herodotus praises it. On the other hand, when he writes about the Babylonian defloration precessions (it’s like a festival where the women just line up and get fucked by the first person who comes to them), herodotus is open about his dislike of that custom, because their is no logic to this system. So I think H definitely does compare cultures relatively, and on a sort of spectrum. But the dialectic isn’t Greek vs. Barbarous, it’s symmetrical and logical vs. asymmetrical and chaotic, and Greek and barbarism alike are but under the scrutiny of that lease.

>>15770506
I actually broadly agree with your reading, I'd say it's different to relativism in terms of culture though. As in, Herodotus giving a moral lesson on a principle that applies across cultures (i.e. hubris leading to downfall) isn't the same as his use of an ethnographic model to explain the cultural norms of different peoples.

I once did an essay on Herodotus' use of the plupast, and came across an article called 'Herodotus Warns the Athenians', or something like that. You should check it out, might find it interesting.

I'm not sure about your use of the terms democracy vs. imperialism, as the Delian league was by this time essentially an Athenian imperial project. That's more semantics though, I think you're quite right about Herodotus not wanting Athens to repeat the mistakes of past empires.

>>15767552
I loled

>>15770476
>>15770476

You can't "prove" white fragility because there can't be any possible case that would disprove it, meaning every possible case "proves" in by definition.

But if that's your go to excuse for writing off anything anyone says that doesn't confirm your fragile, delicate bubble of a worldview then I expect there's nothing I could say that could reach you--or help you understand how dumb it is to bring that up when the OP is mainly explicitly attacking a kind of phony elitist "socialism." Not to imply that this purile phrase exists to do anything other than shut down conversations in the first place.

>>15770476
"White fragility" is just racist gaslighting. It exists inasmuch as it has been memed into existence.

>>15770476
White Fragility is a religious statement, not a factual one. You can't "prove" it because it has to be taken on faith. To believe in it because it was real would be completely counter-intuitive, as it's supposed to be taken as a statement of faith.