/lit/ - Literature

The Brothers Karamazov

don't be a lazy nigger and redpill your self yourself retard

>redpill me on Orthodox Christianity
Well as someone who was raised Greek Orthodox:

In the West it is nothing but an immigrant social club for Reaganites.
In the East it is a reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult that is tied to intelligence agencies and organized crime.
Being disgusted by Orthodoxy I've left it behind and I'm now a Communist.
>Orthodox literature
None. Absolutely nothing. Orthodoxy is intellectually barren (yes Dostoevsky is garbage adolescent literature}. Catholicism at least has Pascal and Montaigne. If you are going to christlarp at least choose the better Christianity.
>I am seeking to convert
You are seeking to larp and to find a substitute for your inability to be close to people. Get off this shit hole (no one talks about books here anyway), drop your toxic reactionary politics, and make friends.

>>15733132
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
Same as Carlos Castaneda, silence internal monologue. But CC provides so much more.

>>15733132
Read 'An Exact Exposition on the Orthodox Faith'/'The Fount of Knowledge' by St. John of Damascus. 8th century, pre-schism. It's what got me out of RCIA.
https://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exactidx.html
There's also a good audiobook of it on librevox. Oh also I have a huge folder that includes it as well as a bunch of others, including a lot of the Seraphim Rose books and Unseen Warfare (the latter is especially helpful for prayer etc)
https://mega.nz/folder/oZwkUK7b#HJ8w0iF48ss5Cjv8Kbc5Pw

>>15733157
Why are Greeks like this?

>>15733309
Greeks need to pay their debt. But if they did, would they still be greeks? Such is the eternal question.

>>15733309
?
Like what?

>>15733157
>a reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult
based

>>15733132
I'm interested as well.
How does a german convert without speaking any orthodox majority language? All we have a greek orthodox churches.

>>15733132
>In the East it is a reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult that is tied to intelligence agencies and organized crime.

>>15733335
>>15733360
moron
>BUH BUH BASED BASED BUH BASED BASED CRIIIIIIINGE
You're whole personality is dictated by memes you are not a real person. Being unable to connect with other people you take up contrarian stances further distancing yourself away from others and as a safeguard for your issues with your own identity. You are a spiteful and resentful person. You can't create anything all you do is react.

>>15733343
They don't speak German in any of those where you live? I'm American and there's usually a few English speaking parishes here of any given jurisdiction. Even in churches where it's mostly or all Slavonic the people usually speak the local language.

>>15733331
Apostatized and kind of dumb

>>15733386
You know nothing about those people. Rain your ego in. You think you have to be a communist or whatever to have friends? You're dumb

>>15733132
>wants to convert but doesnt even know about it

>>15733413
I spent a long time here I know plenty plenty about you sorts. You are all carbon copies. I would say you are all better off shot and dead if you guys actually did anything but you are all nobodies. All you people do is seethe in the background behind your monitor. Weak. That is all you are are.

>>15733157
Greece has some of the best Christian monasteries in the world. I am not Orthodox, but I don't know why people like you hate their own culture. Very odd, and I suspect you are not even Greek.

>>15733132
>Redpill me on Orthodox Christianity.
It's True; the most correct religion.
>What is the best Orthodox literature?
The Way of the Pilgrim for beginners.
Christ the Eternal Tao for meddlers.
Philokalia for the more spiritually advanced.
>I am seeking to convert.
Find an Orthodox parish in your area and speak with the priest; I'm sure he'll be more than happy to start you on your journey.

>>15733132
Go to orthodox church and ask the priest, his job is to guide you. But we all know you won't actually convert, you would have already talked to a priest, and asked from him if you were serious.

>>15733386
Imagine getting that rustled about a macro image response support something you don't like. Pathetic. Dilate.

>>15733396
Dunno, I thought it's like in the latin mass, just that the latin parts are spoken in greek or whatever local language is used. do they hold the mass in the common language completely?

>>15733132
1. Stop larping. 2. read the bible. 3. go to whatever church is local to you
Denominations are memes

>>15733157
On which side did your ancestors fight in the civil war

>>15733599
> do they hold the mass in the common language completely
We call it the Liturgy, and it depends on the parish. We don't standardize the language in the same way that Roman Catholics do (or did, I should say) with Latin. The reason so many churches speak Greek is because they're full of Greeks, but that's also mostly going to be under the Greek jurisdiction. Russian jurisdictions will tend to have more Slavonic (the cyrillic alphabet was created for the slavs by the Church) because there are a lot of Russians there, Antiochian jurisdictions will have more Arabic (my parish uses a mix of Arabic and English for the liturgy). Basically the reason there are often different languages than the local one is because those communities are usually immigrants rather than natives.

>>15733688
Why go to church at all if you don't care about what you believe in?

>>15733459
All of your posts in this thread have been you seething.

>>15733132
I highly recommend the autobiography of Archibishop Luka of Simferopol, if you can find it in English. Also the works of St. Porphyrios and Seraphim Rose. God bless.
t. Greek Orthodo,

>>15733386
based

>>15733132
>I am seeking to convert
Imagine not believing in something but asking strangers to make you believe it anyway. Imbecilic

>>15733386
cringe

The Way of a Pilgrim and the Pilgrim Continues His Way - Anonymous

Father Arseny, 1893-1973: Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father - Vera Bouteneff

Saint Silouan the Athonit - Sophrony Sakharov

Athos - Boris Zajtsev

Prayer of the Heart: Writings from the Philokalia

The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church - Vladimir Lossky

>>15733467
He is greek. We ve got thousands of those communists who would put american leftists to shame.

>>15733252
dilate

>>15733335
Came here to post this. Also you should have gotten them quints with that poast

>>15733157
>Well as someone who was raised Greek Orthodox
m8 you could've left that bit out and we would've still known you were raised in the Greek church based on the rest of your post

>>15733157
how is communism not reactionary, and if you mean you are a marxist why would you chose the term that lumps you in with the crazy larpers, unless you are one of them

>>15734502
Huh? Most Greeks are religious.

Even if I found a specific church and converted
I wouldn't truly fit in and a lot Orthodox churches are ethnic centric

>>15734419
what are your other hobbies?

lol Godless commies hate themselves and have no peace of mind.

>>15733386
yikes

good thread

>>15733132
God is dead and he knows it.

>>15733132
The gospels + talk to a priest

>>15737088
>talk to a priest
>trusting a priest to talk about the bible

>palamism
no thanks

>>15737167
Not all EO are Palamites (or open theists like Swinburne lol).

>>15737183
really? i keep hearing from orthodox palamism IS orthodoxy and the councils should be accepted as dogma. they say orthodoxy is indistinguishable from palamism. this priest is one example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLmw_8FKR8w

>>15737203
To play the devil's advocate, a lot of fellow Catholics say that the Rosary is the most important part of Catholicism, which it isn't (it's the Mass and the Sacraments). You can still be a good Catholic and not pray the Rosary often (not really advised but it's not obligatory you pray the Rosary, just highly advised). It might be a situation where people overstate the importance of one practice which is very useful for spiritual growth but not necessary.

>>15733157
You deserve to be slaughtered.

>>15737218
but based on palamism they come with all the energeia, theosis and rejection of beatific vision. to me it sounds like a rebellious attempt to reject thomism and move further from the west so they can say they have not been tainted with western (greek) philosophy

>>15737203
Hm i'll have to check that out. My main introduction to Orthodoxy was David Bentley Hart, and he holds to more of the Thomist idea of divine simplicity and explicitly rejects Palamism.

>>15737259
>he holds to more of the Thomist idea of divine simplicity and explicitly rejects Palamism.
interesting

can someone post the esoteric Christianity chart? plz and thank you

>>15737235
shut up retard

>>15733132
Why not ditch “””””””tradition””” and “””cool foreign wow ”” and focus on actually reading the scripture instead of wasting your time with churches?

>>15737356
Critical thinking, self awareness, and decision making is just too radical for the ignorant majority. They really want to be told what to do and how to do it, without questioning it themselves.

>>15737433
Yeah, I know. However, I believe that getting someone to see the message it will spark something. Theres no problem in trying!

>>15733157
>a reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult that is tied to intelligence agencies and organized crime
Damn, how do I sign up?

>>15733386
tourist

>>15737235
he speaks truth actually.

>>15737467
keep killing yourself until you are born greek

>>15733157
>yes Dostoevsky is garbage adolescent literature
My man, calling it for what it is. Raskolnikov would've been fine if he had fucked the girl of his building.

>>15733157
>In the East it is a reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult that is tied to intelligence agencies and organized crime.

>>15737575
The Adolescent by Fyodor Dostoevsky

Jay Dyer's two upcoming books.
Unironically.
Me not being Christian I will use these as basis for critique, since he can deny what he had said but not what he will write. For his arguments against catholicism and prots are top tier, but not those against Platonism which he claims to have read yet generalize so bad that he clearly hasn't.

>>15737741
On the meme: On what they do is referring to their actions in relation to His law. Not by faith to Jesus and going to mass on Sunday.

>>15737741
jay dyer was proactively refuted twice or thrice by the sede dude from most holy family monastery

>>15737770
Fuck off

>>15733386
But I ironically support all actions taken by Russia's reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist intelligence agencies. The West has to be destroyed for the good of humanity.

>>15737774
you are not even christian, what would you know. grow up first

>>15737770
Not the one you are responding to, but I believe even though an author has been refuted in some form or the other it is still valuable to read their content and not discard everything they have to say. Why do fervent capitalists read to Marx? To understand their opposition, and maybe heed some of the criticism if they come to agree with any of his points.

>>15737755
Luther literally wanted to remove James from the Bible because he realized they destroyed his entire belief system. The same is true for all the books removed. Sola scriptura is real nice if you just deny the scriptura that disagrees with you.

>>15737790
Removing books just because it does not agree with you is totally wrong. It only confirms your ignorances. Hey! Ignorance is strength when grasped in the hands of power.

>>15737784
i dont mind if he wants to read books by a semi-youtube celeb that makes videos on orthodoxy and still acts as narcissistic, my comment was directed to his "his arguments against catholicism are top tier", but then again the anon might be too young. who the fuck is jay dyer in the history of western and eastern church?

>>15733386
holy schizoid

>>15737809
Well, who is to rank the importance of any points made by any author. It is all subjective by definition. Forming your opinions through knowing all sides.

>>15737833
i mean, why did the anon suggest jay dyer instead of lossky and meyendorff which is what dyer read? dyer trash talks boomers all the times but how are they any worse than the zoomers that watch him and use him as a source

>>15737809
He probably realized that which is why he's writing the books. And was also my point about critiquing him. In a hundred 3 hour live streams you'll be able to find him say everything beneath the Sun, his books will remove is true defenses of denying any criticism you can throw at him as error/mistakes or "old video".
He has a PhD and is writing one of them together with a priest and university teacher.

>>15737851
Because he'll be a compilation of all those works, plus shit like Staniloe or however it's spelled is expensive as fuck. A huge portion of the books he cites can't be found with reasonable prices.

>>15737879
>palamite heresy
into the trash it goes

>>15737879
Pdf online are often free.

>>15737898
Find a recognized orthodox scholar against Palamas who isn't push up against a wall and ass raped
He's even a Saint in Eastern catholicism

>>15733157
Mare bou ești.

>>15733252
Go on

>>15738508
that's it. stoptalking to yourself and to your imaginary friends. while you do you are schizo. forgive them, forget them. it is said that with enough internal silence you can get rid of original sin, fake larping mind that makes people idiots and schizos.

>>15733132
Orthodox are the ISIS of Christianity.

>>15738653
(And that's a good thing!)

>>15738653
Always brings a smile to my face knowing that the burgers blew these faggots into small chunks

>>15733132
>Redpill me
Okay. It's fake. Like all Christianity. Like all religion. Like all spirituality, mysticism, metaphysics and supernatural phenomena. It's bullshit. It's a scam. And you're pretentious if you think otherwise. There's your redpill ya fucking faggot.

>>15738732
Some big metaphysical claims there, care to support them?

>>15738737
>make up a bunch of crazy, stupid metaphysical shit
>expect everyone else to prove that it doesn't exist
Oh shit anon, it must hurt having a brain that big.

>>15738492
Sugi pula de asistat social.

>>15738754
can't support your claims and beliefs.
gottcha

>>15738582
>CC provides so much more
What is it?

>>15738838
You'd have an easy time proving me wrong if you actually had any proof for the retarded shit you believe. You wanted the redpill. This is the redpill. None of this stuff is real. And it's not real precisely because you can't prove any of it. Your religion has been around for 2000 years and is based on a religious tradition that's been around for thousands of years longer than that. Never once has anyone proven any of it's metaphysical assertions. You know what that means? It means it's bullshit. Now stop huffing your own farts, pull your head out of your ass and fuck off to /his/ if you want to jack yourself off over your faux enlightenment. This is the literature board. Not the LARP board. Ya little pussy bitch. I'd kick your ass in real life too.

>>15738861
you're swearing and acting childish aren't arguments, clearly these questions are having an emotional affect on you.

I'll give you a tip.
Different claims require different types of proof. Whether cookies exist in a cupboard requires a different kind of proof than mathematical theorems.

You're not going find God or disprove him by looking in your cupboard. And you're not going to argue against metaphysics by presupposing naive materialism as your paradigm. If you have a case make it, otherwise it's best to remain quiet.

>>15733157
You had me until ties with mafia

>>15738851
carlos castaneda. best so far. even Gurdjieff sucks Don Juans dick.

>>15738966
>Different claims require different types of proof.
Yes they do. Big claims need big proof. And you don't have any of it. You don't have any proof at all actually. Which is why everything you believe is bullshit. The best part about my so called "naive materialism" is that I can use it as a blunt force weapon on pretentious pseuds such as yourself and there's nothing you can do about it. Your mind is too weak and flabby to withstand the punishment. For everything you believe, every irrationality, every wishful thinking fantasy, all I have to do is say 'oh yeah, prove it'. And everything crumbles. You built a house of cards with a hurricane on the horizon and then you lash out at nature itself when it all falls down.

The best part is you're so smugly self assured in this fragile system of lies that you subscribe to that it's actually incredibly satisfying to pull the rug out from beneath you. I wouldn't have even bothered otherwise. If you don't like it, you can always go back to the_donald or wherever the fuck you people have materialised from with all of the other 19 year old fart sniffers, heirs apparent to the legacy of the thin skinned soccer moms of yore. Little fucking pussy.

>>15733132
>I am seeking to convert to a religion i know nothing about
based retard

>>15733815
It's not what you believe, but how you believe that matters.

>>15739035
I’ll pray for you anon

>>15737235
Very Jesus like of you too say

>>15739035
Perhaps you'll break free one day.

>>15739035
The very idea of 'proof' presupposes metaphysics, immutable laws of logic, objective truth, intelligibility, meaning, all things materialism can't account for.

>>15739708
What're some books that BTFO materialism, anon?

>>15733132
read PD's Mystical Theology, retire from intellectual toil as a legitimate avenue towards salvation or peace, and find a community of believers where you can find a mentor or father-in-christ

>>15739708
Pathetic.

>>15737098
You're a "lesbian (probably trans and atheist) anarchist", why are you in a thread about Orthodoxy? I mean it's not like you are also a child of God, but what inclined you to come here when you obviously have nothing of value to say?

>>15734829
9 times out of 10 the vocal anti-orthodox leftists are 2nd generation greek immigrants who stopped going to church at 11 years old

>>15737098
you know literally nothing about Christianity please go away you utter psued

>>15733132
Speaking as someone who converted after a fairly significant period as a catechumen, I encourage you not to rush to any conclusions about Orthodoxy. If you are motivated to convert to Orthodoxy on account of a certain distate for the conditions of secular modernity, that is a perfectly fair place to start. Others may come to it - dare I say most converts come to Orthodoxy - from a rejection of the Roman Catholic Church or one of the various Protestant sects that in which they have been raised as westerners. I assume you belong to the former class of people. Try not to see it as a "redpill" or indeed as an extension of right or left politics. The sincere belief and practice of Orthodoxy informs a way of life. As a potential convert, be respectful and don't be glib. Memes are amusing but religious practice (in our case, orthopraxis) they are not.

For reading matter, Andrew Louth's 'Introducing Eastern Orthodox Theology' is a good place to start. If you have some kind of background or prior experience reading philosophy, many of the essays in the Philokalia will be easier to understand and interpret than many would lead you to believe. Otherwise, there are many resources available on the internet that will help you understand certain core Orthodox concepts. Even Wikipedia or OrthodoxWiki are acceptable places to start. If your belief is sincere and you see such sources as steps on a ladder toward greater knowledge and understanding, I am sure you will be capable of moving on to primary sources (namely the Philokalia, The Way of the Pilgrim and so on). It helps to have a friend or partner in the church - if you begin to attend a local parish, you are likely to find someone who will be willing to assist you. In terms of eventual baptism, this is a necessity as you will require Godparents who are married, in the church and have only been Godparents once before (this is at least the case in the Romanian Orthodox Church - perhaps other autocephalous churches may have subtle differences).

Most important of all is finding a parish. If you are a westerner, like the German or American posters above (or English like myself), your nearest parish will likely be Greek or Russian (mine is Greek, but before moving there I attended a Romanian parish). The priest will almost certainly speak your language. Don't be intimidated by not understanding the divine liturgy in church, be it Greek or Russian or Serbian or Romanian - that will come with time and reading. Your belief and your practice - through fasting, prayer and membership of your parish - are what matters.

>>15739852
>>15739852
Philosophy:
On the Proper Use of Philosophy in Theology
Aristotle: East and West -Dr. David Bradshaw
Byzantine Theology -John Meyendorff
Quadrivium: The Four Classical Liberal Arts
The One and the Many – R.J. Rushdoony


Apologetics:
Van Til’s Apologetic -Dr. Greg Bahnsen
Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future -Fr. Seraphim Rose
Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age -Fr. Seraphim Rose
Irenaeus and Orthodox Apologetic Methodology: A Neopatristic Presuppositionalism -Fr. Schooping

>>15740143
>Speaking as someone who converted after a fairly significant period as a catechumen
Woah man that's crazy I had no idea they did that in orthodox christianity. No offense or anything but that just isn't for me. I mean I respect different cultures and faiths and everything but it kinda seems like pretty major pain in the ass just to join the church you know? I mean maybe that's a bad choice of words but you get what I mean. That's crazy man good for you though you're clearly an educated guy. I have a lot of respect for anyone who would put themselves through that kind of thing as part of their spiritual journey. It's just not for me though man I mean jesus christ. I actually can't believe people still do this shit.

>>15740242
What's wrong with it? You make it sound like it's a grueling task. It's just a phase of your life in the church, like literally any other church, but it's given a name. Moreover Orthodox churches have better communities exactly because of this practice.

>>15740267
Hey look man I'm not judging. If that's the kind of thing you're into and it's not harming me personally who am I to judge. I mean you have to wonder about consent and legality and that whole thing though. I know it's just a phase and eventually you mature and all that and you're not fit for the role anymore but still. Hey look though if it strengths the community in some way then sure I guess. I mean I didn't know it was a communal thing but I guess that makes sense. It's just not for me though man. Good luck with the orthodoxy thing though. If it works for you that's all that matters.

>>15740242
Perhaps I make it sound more taxing than it was. Quite the opposite. I attended church services in my home city, read widely about Orthodoxy and made my decision slowly over time. I wasn't a regular churchgoer throughout the two years or so in which I was drawn to Orthodoxy (I moved around due to work) and as for the baptism, it only took place in Eastern Europe because I was holidaying and visiting my partner's family there. To be a catechumen meant for me discussions with my (now) Godparents about Orthodoxy, praying, reading, attending and visiting various churches until I made the wonderful decision. If it seems like a major pain in the ass, perhaps that's due to the ease with which many Protestant denominations, not to mention Islam, fast-track the process of religious conversion. Many people nowadays have a fairly mutilated or flawed understanding of the meaning of veneration and worship - myself included as a younger man, raised a secular household with nominal Catholic and Jewish roots. I'd encourage you to attend church at least once to see how it feels (just remember not to go up for the Eucharist until you've been baptised!).

>>15737770
Link to the sede?

>>15740308
i guess you're joking but being a catechumen just means you're new to the church and involves nothing untoward

>>15738966
>you're not going to find God or disprove him by looking in your cupboard

While I don't wish to be embroiled in a passionate debate about metaphysics and materialism, I can't help but chuckle at the cupboard remark. One of the bases of the Orthodox practice of hesychasm (hesychastic prayer) is a verse from Matthew (6:6):

"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

In other words, theosis (the oft-misunderstood unity with God through hesychasm) may indeed be found in your cupboard.

>>15733157
>In the East it is a reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult that is tied to intelligence agencies and organized crime.
sounds based as fuck, which country's church is the MOST reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult?

>>15740356
nice pull, but it's important to note that Hesychasm is also a social practice and it is incredibly important that new practitioners do so only with the guidance of a real human being or community

>>15740321
>Perhaps I make it sound more taxing than it was. Quite the opposite.
>I'd encourage you to attend church at least once to see how it feels
Hey look man that's great. Different horses for different courses. I just don't know if I could get into it. I mean I guess you're right in the sense that I consider trying it once just to see how it feels but like, doesn't it hurt? I dunno. This whole thing has been a really eye opening experience for me. I was just shocked at first because I had no idea it still went on. You have to respect longevity of a tradition like that at the very least.

>>15740373
Your mom's ass

>>15740373
not russia, insane as the russian orthodox are

serbia maybe?

>>15740383
can you be straight about what you're implying? it really sounds like you think being a catechumen means getting fucked in the ass or something

>>15738492
roman bazat

>>15740343
Oh shit man I feel stupid now. I just googled it and you're right. I got it mixed up with something else. The two words sound kinda similar. That's my bad that's on me bro. I just still I dunno this whole thing kinda put a bad taste in my mouth. I think I'm just gonna stay a normal christian and leave it at that. Sorry guys.

>>15740408
My bad man sorry. It's a confusing word that's all.

>>15740373
>>15733157
>>In the East it is a reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult that is tied to intelligence agencies and organized crime.
> reactionary misogynistic
> reactionary misogynistic
>anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult
>anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult
>anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult
WOW LOOK AT ALL THOSE SCARY WORDS!!!!!!!!!!

>>15733157
>reactionary misogynistic anti-semitic fascist xenophobic racist cult
I'm not gonna lie, this sounds too based to be true

>>15740424
hahahahahahaha that's hilarious. Yes. Catamite. It's nothing like that.

And regarding your conversion, that's fine, I'm glad you're recommitting yourself to Christ in any form. I still think you might find something of value even just attending an Orthodox service though! They're incredibly beautiful.

>>15740425
>>15733386

>>15740428
>>15733386

>>15733132
A lot of negative comments here--i wouldn't listen to them. You can expect, almost as a maxim, that /lit/ will not understand something as ancient and nuanced as the orthodox church. In fact, so much as mentioning orthodox christianity almost always makes them believe you're a larper (because for some strange reason, its impossible that someone could actually be a Christian here). My advice: make your own mind up-- go to a parish, speak with a priest, with members, etc. Attend services (not just Sunday, but vespers as well) It's a beautiful liturgy-- standing for that long takes some time to get used to, sure, but it is worth it. (Also know that you will not be allowed to take communion until you officially join)

As for literature, there is unironically loads of it. Not just the Brothers karamazov (which is actually, despite these other anons' arguments) one of the best books in human history, but other, more spiritual books like "The Way of the Pilgrim" (fiction) or "The Mountain of Silence" (for a nonfiction style spiritual exploration). I'm sure your priest, once you become friends, will have plenty to discuss with you as well.

All the best

>>15740528
I'd also add that the liturgy might not be something you enjoy the first time. If that's the case, dont fret or feel guilty or anything. It's all part of the process

>>15740528
Orthodoxy is ethnic centric and culturally exclusive so yes if you consider converting to Orthodoxy you are most likely a larper and one of the alt-right types.

>>15740528
great advice

also wanna say that Orthodoxy may be "trad" but it is so profoundly beyond that and it's my hope that anyone entering the church for that or another ideological reason can manage to lay that aside and have a direct encounter with the church and with God

>>15740571
wrong again!

This man was braver than you by far in fighting for the rights of his fellow man, but he did it because of his faith and moral grounding which you obviously and regrettably lack.

Moreover the Orthodox church explicitly and unambiguously condemned ethnic phyleticism and racism as *heresy* almost two centuries ago.

Heal your mind! Let go of your ideology, I beg you, just go on a walk or something. The world can be beautiful, especially when you know God.

>>15740595
>>15740571

"We censure, condemn, and declare contrary to the teachings of the Gospel and the sacred canons of the holy Fathers the doctrine of phyletism, or the difference of races and national diversity in the bosom of the Church of Christ."

– Article I of the Decree of the 1872 Council of Constantinople.

>>15740603
Those are nice words but that doesn't change anything. If you weren't born Greek, Russian, etc you will always be a larper.

>>15740666
nice get satan

the fact that you don't list the most important orthodox ethnic groups shows what a dummy you are though

>>15740666
there are black people who go to my local orthodox church and i've never met an orthodox who wouldn't be thrilled about and kind to a convert

>>15740699
There are others but those are the two most significant ones. I don't need to make a list. Point is, if Orthodoxy isn't part of your culture you are a larper that can't have sex and one of those retard losers that whine about "degeneracy" and the "decline of western civilization."

>>15740728
What type of blacks? That doesn't really tell me anything since Orthodoxy is pretty big in Ethiopia.

>>15740733
I disagree but I see we're getting nowhere.

As a parting note (hopefully not a parting shot) I would like to explain why I think you're wrong. I'll read your reply if you have one.

Catholicism and by extension Protestantism were irrevocably changed by modernism and susceptible to capital and all the usual modes of alienation which have struck every part of all of our lives, the world over. I genuinely think Orthodoxy's pre-modern separation from state power and utter stagnation through the Ottoman/Soviet period has led to Orthodoxy representing a way of mediating one's relationship with the world in a way that isn't alienating.

So, yes, I have a problem with the way the world is. I think almost all humans do. But I don't blame degeneracy or politics or decline. I just think there's been a natural course that Western Christianity has taken which has made it more compatible with modern life, capitalist society, whatever you want to call it, but less nourishing to the human soul.

>>15740763
Just locals who moved into the once Slavic neighborhood after the big factories folded and the slavs' children left and became American. They were Christians and wanted a church, and they found one. An especially good one if you ask me.

>>15740728
>>15740603
>>15740595
This. It's not larping to be part of the orthodox faith.

>>15740817
This. Now if you'll excuse me I must don my wizardly vestments and prepare for battle.

>>15740802
So you are one of those tradlarpers ok. If you think Orthodoxy is any better you are ignorant and you are just exoticizing it. Orthodoxy is basically neocon. I was born into this retarded shit. It is one thing to be born into it and mindlessly follow it, it is something else when I see someone willingly walk into this retarded shit and it makes me angry when I see limp wristed trad larpers come in and exoticize it.

>>15740851
pleb just jealous of the utter drip

>>15740860
whatever man, I promise you I'm an anti-racist and not interested in "reforming society". I've found something meaningful to me. I hope you find something similar in whatever way you can and I'm sorry your experience of the faith was so negative.

>>15739988
It’s like a car trying to avoid a swarm of locusts.
You don’t want hit, get out of my road.

>>15740060
I know enough having been raised one.

>>15740810
Ok so they are just normal people. The people I am lambasting are of another kind.

>>15738732
Obviously by adding words like mysticism and metaphysics in this context, you clearly have 0 idea of what you're talking about. Retard.

>>15740875
Since ITT we're trying to avoid the BASED spam and have personalities and real dialogue: good post, Orthofriend. Which of the Churches are you with?
>>15740876
>I know enough having been raised one.
The state of catechesis is abysmal, at least if you're American. For example, it's a stereotype that Catholic school only teaches you how to be atheist, I've talked with people who went through it and don't even know what transubstantiation is. Being raised Christian sadly doesn't make you an expert on it, Butters.

>>15740895
I attend an Antiochian church but it's filled with lots of families from churches whose membership dipped too low and folded. The most involved people are essentially sweet nerds who are super into Byzantine Notation and singing about God.

I will say, sadly, that I accept that there's a real pipeline of Alt-Right Orthodoxy laundering/recruitment which bums me out, but it's not something I've seen personally, just on the internet.

>>15740666
>>15740733

"Larping" connotes the transient nature of the role being played. The term originates as a descriptor for people who would perform a given character in a given setting for a fixed period of time: some lads meet in some woods outside town to play a medieval swordplay-type game, or something like that. "Larper" or "larp" as pejorative pertains to an individual performing a similar role in such a way. In the case of someone dressing up as a Nazi to attend a far-right rally, a student wearing an ushanka at a protest or a westerner wearing Japanese garb and wielding a samurai sword to film a youtube video of them ineptly chopping watermelons, "larp" is a fairly accurate descriptor. They are consciously, if superficially, playing a kind of role - their imagined characterisation of a 'Nazi', a 'Communist', a 'Ronin' or 'Samurai' - which bears little resemblance to their subjective reality, i.e. what they are like, in truth. Orthodox converts from ethnic or national communities which do not have autocephalous churches of their own do not claim to be Greek, Russian, Romanian, Serbian and so on as a consequence of their conversion. To refer to themselves as a "Greek Orthodox Christian" most likely identifies the parish to which they belong. The church I have most often attended is a Greek church. The liturgy is in Greek, although in recognition of the small Romanian community who also attend services, certain parts are repeated in Romanian, and of course in English, the church being in Britain. I was baptised in a Romanian church. I am an Orthodox Christian and I am English, not Greek or Romanian.

There is without a doubt a certain process of adjustment for, say, a British convert to Orthodoxy who attends a church grounded in a particular community: Romanian, Russian, Greek or otherwise. There is both the adjustment to the doctrine of the faith, with which one becomes familiar through practice, prayer, reading theology and so on, and the cultural adjustment that comes from socialising with the members of your parish. I don't for a moment want to compare the right faith to Islam, but I imagine that a White British convert to Islam who attended a mosque in East London might become familiar with Bangladeshi (probably Sylheti) culture as a consequence of mosques there being based in the Bangladeshi community.

National identity and Orthodoxy have a complex relationship. If your nation has a close relationship with the faith, then it is only natural that many will see the faith as an extension of their nation or vice-versa, particularly if, as in the case of Serbia, Bulgaria, Armenia, Greece and Romania, your country has been colonised and subjugated by an imperial power with a different religion (the Ottoman Empire). As an Englishman, of course I feel drawn to the saints my own country has been blessed with - they present me with a narrative that is naturally more familiar to me as a consequence of my national identity and culture.

>>15740957
larp is better than cargo cult.

>>15740918
>but it's filled with lots of families from churches whose membership dipped too low and folded.
That's incredibly heartbreaking to hear. Since I'm going to assume you're American: hopefully Orthodoxy takes off better here, I feel like it could go really well, and if a denomination is going to grow here (and I'm not allowed to pick my own) then I'd like it to be Orthodoxy, given all the good things that you guys have.
>I will say, sadly, that I accept that there's a real pipeline of Alt-Right Orthodoxy laundering/recruitment which bums me out, but it's not something I've seen personally, just on the internet.
I've noticed the same, but I'm no longer in Eastern Orthodox circles online. I'm told by my Orthodox friends that it's still the case though, and that at least a sizeable portion of them don't go to church anyway. I feel like the priest would be able to sniff out the "I'm interested because it's BASED" and give them a longer catechumenate or something. Supposedly a number of them also go to the Russians because they're more politically conservative than say, the Greeks.
Back to my experience though, I've noticed that these are the sort of people who are catechumens or inquirers and think everyone should read the Philokalia before converting and believe that they can and should also read every single canon from every single council, as though they understand the application thereof. It's absolutely mindboggling, and I sincerely hope that the Orthodox don't get consumed by the Alt-Right kids. Hopefully after a little bit of time in the Church they'll calm down and mellow out a little bit, rather than burning out and converting to something else, or trying to forcibly inject even more politics into the Orthodox (not that the Orthodox are especially politicized--every denomination is suffering from political influences and ideally that trend can be reversed). They could be a great boon too, because anyone stubborn enough to read the Philokalia, especially when they're unlikely to glean much from it, or someone stubborn enough to go through all the canons (which don't even apply to most people/situations) is clearly gifted in some way, it's just about taming it all.

>>15741024
>I've noticed that these are the sort of people who are catechumens or inquirers and think everyone should read the Philokalia before converting and believe that they can and should also read every single canon from every single council, as though they understand the application thereof.

Reminds me of one of my favorite anecdotes

>>15741258
That's a good anecdote. Is the rest of the book as good?

>>15733157
>>15733386
Die pozzed commie scum

>>15733386
dilate.

>>15735252
> I wouldn't truly fit in
You have bigger immediate issues than "fitting in". You could die at any moment

>>15737770
No, retard. Dyer is far from perfect, but those guys are an absolute joke, on so many levels. Gtfo

>>15737259
> David Bentley Hart
Maybe you should ask an actual monk or part of the hierarchy and not some academic pseud

>>15741303
I like it a lot, I think it's a weird and apt way of writing about religion, to frame it within an intimate and casual conversation. Definitely has a goofus and gallant feel at times, but it's a classic.

>>15740733
Dilate, and then fuck off back to R*ddit

>>15741314
>>15741350
>>15741355
>>15741399
can you stop ruining this thread by talking like that?

>>15741365
this is good advice tho

>>15737356
>>15737433
Which scripture? Don't you think it's a little odd that prots only remove books from the Orthodox canon, but never add any? Is that just a coincidence?

>>15741410
ignore prot posters
sage prot threads

>>15741365
David Bentley Hart writes angrily, but what makes him a pseud? Though I'd agree that basically all introductions to any religion should come from clergy and monastics, not academics.
>>15741398
Neat, then I'll add that to the list of things I should read. Thanks!

>>15739546
>how you believe that matters
Well then how do you know what is right and not your sinful mind deciding what is right or wrong?

>>15741464
through a community of believers and spiritual fathers with an unbroken line of succession directly to the Apostles themselves, lol

>>15733132
russia is as much of a shithole as the west is, don't fall for the christlarp meme

>>15740895
Catechesis is a mess very much. I don't know how catechesis works for Catholic Schools, but in the public school system its one day a week for an hour of class. This isn't enought at all. The best way one will learn about the church, its teachings and theology is by oneself. At least catechesis should give out books or any form of paper that would try to encourage a student to read it.

>>15741487
Oh my mistake I didn't realize. I thought you were meaning to "just believe in whatever". I apologize

>>15733157
>t. ανθέλληνας

>>15733132
there is no god, you're wasting your life on a 2000 year old myth

>>15740332
https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/jay-dyer-palamism/#.XvuM5J3Pz88

>>15741410
All of it. All of the canon and apocrypha and extra biblical texts. Who's to decide what's inspired scripture and what isn't? Certainly not the pharisees nor the council of nicea.

>>15741848
if you're an atheist then we're all wasting our lives, surely? There's no way to meaningfully critique Christians from a secular-liberal worldview. They're people who believe they're doing there best to improve the world and who derive real "utility" from their beliefs.

almost fucking vomited typing that though

>>15741875
actually ecumenical councils are exactly who decide what is and isn't inspired scripture and to say otherwise, that YOU are in a better position than they, is hubris to a degree which endangers your soul

>>15741892
Immorality, indecency, degeneracy, hostility, judgment, ignorance and basically sin, endangers your soul. Cross referencing canon with apocrypha, searching out the at least 2 witnesses required to prove something true, isn't a sin. Its just proper study.

>>15741942
hubris and pride can absolutely open your soul up to danger

I don't think it's wrong to read apocrypha but I do think one shouldn't do it until they're experienced in the spiritual life.

>>15741956
By reading all the canon and the apocrypha and all the texts related to the BIble, you can understand quite a bit to make some form of judgement. Obviously the books that are classically placed in the Bible should have a higher "trust" or "legitimacy", not sure what word, than the others. If you can delve in and understand the stories, who is to say that you are not just as qualified as a council or a church elder besides not being ordained through Peter? Not saying that anything you said is wrong, there are certain negative aspects like you mentioned.

>>15741258
Sauce? I've heard this story too, but forget the source

>>15741956
>use caution
Obviously. But when Jesus quotes Enoch himself, and Jude dedicates his entire epistle to paraphrasing it, I'm calling Enoch, the 7th from Adam, canon. Which it still is in the Ethiopian Bible anyway.

>>15735252
If you're in America, that's actually not an issue. My parish is surprisingly diverse-- we've got people from every background, every age, every race. Actually, now that I mention it, orthodoxy in general is diverse:
>Russia
>Greece
>Serbia
>coptic/Egypt
>Ethiopia
>Antioch
Etc

You'll fit in, is what I'm saying, unless you're in Russia and you're black or Ethiopia and you're white or something lol.

Word to the wise, though: be careful of parents and grandparents that have single children. They'll often want to keep you away from them. Lol

>>15741999
nice get

I personally have a great deal of belief in the concept of an Ecumenical Council, and think it follows from the idea of a community of belief and a concept of the human soul that something like an Ecumenical Council could be divinely inspired in a way a human being could not be.

But then, those who wrote the books of the Bible were divinely inspired individuals.

Ultimately what I'm saying is that the ability to distinguish between books of the Bible and Apocrypha requires such inspiration as much as it does reason and knowledge, or perhaps moreso.

Inexperienced believers who conduct such sophisticated research alone, who don't have a community or a mentor of any kind sometimes follow very sad paths, believing they are divinely inspired, contacted by God. Whether you want to understand this phenomenologically as manifestation of Schizophrenia rather than spiritual imperilment, that's fine. I maintain it can be a fraught activity and is wiser to do once you've developed your spiritual life.

>>15742067
The Mountain of Silence

>>15739546
What you believe is inseparable from how you believe, at least where Christian denominations are concerned.

>>15742106
aren't coptic, ethiopian and other african and middle eastern churches a different thing? they're called oriental orthodox churches

>>15742274

Well, it depends, but in general the "middle eastern" churches, as you say, are straightforwardly Orthodox, full stop. That's not as true with the Ethiopian or Coptic churches, and very not true w/r/t the Assyrian church.

>>15742318
>>15742274
I mean yes, they're different: but not THAT different. Im pretty sure they recognize each other's sacraments, and that you could probably take communion from one if you're a member of another. Not entirely sure though.

>>15743418
The Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox are separate and don't [usually]* share sacraments. Which is funny, because Oriental just means Eastern.
The rationale for why they aren't in Communion with one another is due to the Council of Chalcedon.

* I say usually because there's probably exceptions for in places where they're heavily persecuted, so Christians of one might be able to receive the sacraments of the other

>>15733147
fpbp

>>15739008
>provides so much more
I was asking about this

>>15733157
>Catholicism at least has Pascal and Montaigne
Not Literature.

>>15733386
trying too hard to fit in

>>15740895
>Being raised Christian sadly doesn't make you an expert on it
This, you need to do the readings by yourself.

>>15737504
>>15739650
heh

>>15739930
Keep seething

>>15733157
Youre the same anon that says this on every thread where someone asks about orthodoxy. You call the OPs larpers, say orthodox are big bad evil antisemites and then throw the fact you're "communist" in. One can go through the archive and find this same post a hundred times over, the "organized crime" bit is new from you though. One OP was simply asking for reading material and you went on your little rant calling him a larper.

>>15733147
I like this book

>>15745166
because in order to silence internal monologue you have to learn to get rid of problems, guilt, fear, you need to return debts, and this is a practice no one else can teach you. dance, meditation, approach to life, it is CC.

>>15740603
Not an ecumenical council.

>>15733132
Moscow Orthodox Church is a KGB dept. Also they officially worship Stalin and Communism now, just feed google with 'хpaм вc pф интepьep opдeнa'
Kiev Orthodox Church is a circus of hillbilly retards, probably half of it are LARP KGB agents.
Polish Orthodox Church is led by an outed KGB informant-agent, but at least they have best interiour decor.
The Constantinople Patriarch has some real shady business in the USA, basically head deep into the intelligence services bullshit.

So far everything a shitshow as much as the Vatican is. Unless you have no spiritual leaning to a particular temple and minister, avoid it.

>>15733157
>I'm now a Communist, but I was always a retard.
u simply just don't have enough iq for orthodoxy sweety :-)

>>15733157
Communist ahaha

>>15740059
>>15734383
Ironically, being a Greek in Greece, most commies I know are extremely religious ultra-orthodox tankies.

>>15746681
>Moscow Orthodox Church is a KGB dept
They have ROCOR to keep them in check.

>>15733132
literature:
The Life of Moses by Gregory of Nyssa
Commentary on the Gospel According to John by Origen
And the great 18th-century Eastern Orthodox mystical anthology, the Philokalia.

Good start.

Also anything from these universalists is good:
Paul the Apostle
Maximus the Confessor
Clement of Alexandria
Diodore of Tarsus
Theodore of Mopsuestia
Theodoret of Cyrus
Isaac of Ninevah

>>15749402
I know isaac of ninevah had universalist tendencies, but I am wary of describing him as a universalist. Why, I ask genuinely, do you label him amongst universalists?

>>15750386
Why listen to my humble opinion, may I suggest an academic book which gives evidence and discusses scholarly work?

A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich
by Ilaria L. E. Ramelli (Author)

David Bentley Hart also safely puts him in the universalist group.

>>15733132
Please don't. I was in your place a few years ago. It may seem a nice alternative to Catholicism while still keeping the fancy religious stuff, but they are just as corrupt, distorting Scriptures just as much as Catholics do.
Orthodoxy will not take you closer to Christ. It will take you farther.

>>15733157
This reads like a goddamn parody lmao.