/lit/ - Literature

>>15721150
Brainlet reaction but good introspection. I like the short story after neuromancer a lot too -- the artificial love twist is always enjoyable when done in a muted fashion

>>15721172
W-what short story?
>tfw stopped reading right after the line about Molly, turned the page, saw the flyleaf and tossed the book then and there

>>15721150
'he never saw her again' or something, that was last sentence in the book. Gibson said he wrote it to stop himself from making sequels but he did it anyway, and they are pretty bad. You really can tell that he doesn't give a fuck, Monalisa has actually plot holes, language is toned down, book reads as a simple thriller.

He also hates sf fans, deservedly of course. he called them weirdos and manchildren in one interview. He quickly moved to Bridge trilogy just to spite them. One hit wonder writer, anyway.

>>15721150
is it really a brainlet book as i think

>>15721231
No, it oozes personality and most plebs get filtered by this fact. Are you one?

It's just a fancy travel journal but every thought and action is presented in a continuous stream of consciousness because they are all high basically. Cool book but I would read it again. If you're a /g/ent it's funny reading about the tech he imagined.

After finishing the trilogy, the one thing that stuck with was the first book and the way Gibson had with words, even at his most cringy imagery (not a fan of the "color of a tv tuned to a dead channel" tbqh).
Secondly, how dense the world feels with just a few locations, which probably has something to do with how crazy and high (as >>15721403 puts it) every character is. The cities explored in the sequels don't feel as alive as the first one's so there's a noticeable drop in quality. Take Monalisa's where Molly and the Jap girl escape through Picadilly for example. It's a ghost of any action sequence set in Chiba and he had the actual place as a template, but failed.
I didn't really like the plot structure of the sequels neither, made them a common thriller.

>>15721150
A couple months ago someone posted in a Neuromancer thread they had hated the ending and that "Case had so much potential" or something like that, but it was lost on the book. The guy sounded bitter. Was that you OP?

>>15721507
>A couple months ago someone posted in a Neuromancer thread they had hated the ending and that "Case had so much potential" or something like that, but it was lost on the book. The guy sounded bitter. Was that you OP?
No but this got me to look up Neuromancer threads in the archives, it seems like a fairly common take, making it all the more embarrassing. One critique I saw that really stuck out was the suggestion that nothing had changed in the case of Case from the start of the book to the end, that he'd essentially ended where he began. I'm really not sure how to respond to that, it doesn't seem wrong and now kind of takes away from my enjoyment of the conclusion.

>>15721507
Gibson seems to rely on the first book of his trilogies to set the scene for the others, bridge trilogy is the same way, virtual light has some amazing imagery and that same lush feel, the rest lack it. Nothing he wrote since has the same quality as Neuromancer though, part of what makes it good is that he did not know what he was doing and did some unique things because of it. Unfortunately he built upon what was "right" about the novel instead of developing the unqiue style it had, so he became genre fiction.

>>15721737
>it doesn't seem wrong and now kind of takes away from my enjoyment of the conclusion.
He's no longer suicidal (through trauma) because he got the thing that he wanted the most. The guy was a meh hacker and though very few know it, he somehow became a legend (though actually a cog in the machine). His life in Mona Lisa seemed alright.

Some books are about some character's journeys. I don't think any of the Sprawl books falls under that category.

>>15721805
>He's no longer suicidal
He was only suicidal because he's denied the matrix due to the toxin in his system. The beginning for Case is just before that when he's happily working as a hacker. The whole story was basically him getting cured of one toxin and then getting poisoned again until he sees the plot through.
>The guy was a meh hacker and though very few know it, he somehow became a legend (though actually a cog in the machine).
Why do you say that? I fully got the impression he was capable.
>His life in Mona Lisa seemed alright.
I never read it, any details?

>>15721805
>Some books are about some character's journeys. I don't think any of the Sprawl books falls under that category.
Maybe there's an anti-journey quality here if that makes sense, people are just people, hell even AI are just AI, the expectation for revolution or epiphany is kind of trite in itself.

>>15721834
>Maybe there's an anti-journey
I meant it's more of a book about the story and/or its world. The characters are just set pieces to realize his vision of the world and how it's transformed and the philosophy behind that transformation. Even the novel's title denies Case as the true protagonist, and the same thing happens with the others. Unlike The Magic Mountain which is "entirely" about Hans. Or C&P, how Raskolnikov changes through the plot.
>he was capable
Yeah, capable but meh. There are thousands of capable hackers. He pulled some amazing shit but purely as a cog, not on the level of his mentors, I'd say.
>I never read it
From what I remember, he got married, had 3 to 6 kids and still frequented a bar where jockeys gathered to tell stories.
>>15721778
Right. I'm going to read Bridge soon so I hope it doesn't suck too much.

>>15721898
his name already implies that there isn't all that much to him

>>15721898
>I hope it doesn't suck too much.
No worse than Count Zero or Mona Lisa. Virtual Light has some amazng imagery regarding the bridge, Idoru has some serious cringe moments, that is about I remember from it but Neuromancer is his only work that has been memorable to me. It is Gibson, you can not expect much, he thinks Count Zero is amoung his best and Neuromancer his worst.

>>15721898
I don't know if it's unpopular opinion but Count Zero was a much better character and cooler hacker than Case. Case was basically just being depressed and reacting to the world, meanwhile reading parts with the Count was all about what he did and wanted to do and was much more engaging to read.

I already read all the Sprawl novels and Gibson's short stories. Is there any other Gibson or otherwise cyberpunk stuff that can be recommended?

>>15722017
Zero's handle is definitely better but I don't think that by the end of the series his skills were any better than Case's. He's an utter noob in the 2nd book and insufferable teenager being manipulated by lowly scum. Since I'm an older faggot, I related to Case a lot more.

>>15722017
it's been a while since i read the trilogy but i felt the same about both count zero and mona lisa. neuromancer was more visceral and interesting stylistically but as far as engaging characters and plot is concerned the former are so much better

>>15722036
I haven't read a lot but there's probably a chart somewhere (maybe in the Neon Pill one).
Snow Crash was fun. Some anon recommended The Shockwave Rider ages ago but I couldn't get into it because it had none of the economy of Gibson at his best.
There's an obscure one titled Dreams of Amputation which had an intriguing title and cover, but I couldn't find it online and the fact there's a Marilyn Manson song with that same title kinda diminished its mystery, but idk.

>>15721150

There's nothing wrong with wanting a satisfying ending. There's nothing even wrong with wanting a happy ending. Modern books are terrible at endings because they're all so desperate to SUBVERT MUH EXPECTATIONS.

That said, the way the book is written, it's childish to expect Molly & Case to run off into the sunset hand-in-hand. We're told very specifically that they're both damaged; both have a person in their past that they're still attached to and can't move on from. (It's been at least 15 years since I looked at it but doesn't Molly say something like "never found anyone I cared much about, after that?" when she's talking about her old love?) No way they can form a healthy new relationship.

>>15722134
>That said, the way the book is written, it's childish to expect Molly & Case to run off into the sunset hand-in-hand. We're told very specifically that they're both damaged; both have a person in their past that they're still attached to and can't move on from. (It's been at least 15 years since I looked at it but doesn't Molly say something like "never found anyone I cared much about, after that?" when she's talking about her old love?) No way they can form a healthy new relationship.
After Molly says that she immediately follows it up by saying Case is similar to Johnny. I don't think it's that simple, Case went out of his way to save Molly after all.

>>15722246
I would have to re-read to check details but I remember feeling it was right that they would not get together. There are endings where you feel the author just went out of his way to thwart a "conventional happy ending" but this wasn't one of them for me. (FWIW I also don't think the book is much good in a literary sense, although of course it was extremely influential. Its main strength is nailing a number of tropes, but the characterization is poor.)

>>15721737
>nothing had changed in the case of Case from the start of the book to the end
That's actually what i remember i got in a general view from the novel when i read it years ago. The "hero's journey" ends in the same point it began, it's an acceptance of the inevitability and impotence. It's in some way a cynic ending, although Case learns or accepts to abandon the fictions that make sense of his life and lives with the ominous uncertainty of existence in the end he just returns to the starting point, wisee but also with resignation. Wintermute/neuromancer, let's say a cybernetic god, attains freedom from the human but that emancipation also means the capacity to govern and control the world.

>>15721150
I just finished this recently too and while some of the scenery and world building was pretty nice, holy fuck the characters and dialogue felt I was reading YA. Any recommendations for similar settings but without the cringey shit?

>>15722874
>Wintermute/neuromancer, let's say a cybernetic god, attains freedom from the human but that emancipation also means the capacity to govern and control the world.
There was a kind of resignation here too though, it's not like the new AI god caused the apocalypse or anything. It just fucked off to do its own things. And when you think about it it was oddly friendly if anything, honored all of its promises and even showed up to say goodbye to Case. There's a real sense of things continuing on as usual from on high to down low.

>>15722922
>There's a real sense of things continuing on as usual from on high to down low.
Sure, this is true or at least is also the understanding i got. I remember (i would have to reread it) there was some thing about the interplay of two planes of reality "the realm of the dead" and a supposed "reality" away from the virtual, which is made obvious in Case's rejection of the bodily matters and the meat in general. But i remember there was a dialoge between Case and the AI i think, where the AI tells Case that his wife wouldn't know that she was actually in the virtual plane. In a certain sense the AI was creating a world, a world managed by it's liberated omnipotence. But in the plane of "reality" the AI is in this same sense directing all the actions of the characters to an inevitable end, which embodies it's "will". So i think i could see that the divide between the two planes was not all that real in the end.
But yeah. it's true that everything, and not only from Case's point of view, remains the same.
I'll have to reread it.

>>15723024
In a sense it could be said that "freedom" as developed in the novel is just a freedom of the conscience; freedom is to know that you're not free, and in the end to accept that as an ultimate truth wich inevitably leads to resignation.

>>15722894
Snowcrash would be the obvious recommendation, but it's even more cringey. But also know that the cringey stuff is intentional, it's a parody of vulgar sci-fi.

>>15721150
fuck i hate almost all modern book covers. read this exact version of neuromancer on the subway and i felt self conscious reading something with such an ostentatiously shitty cover.

>>15723887
This cover is my cover.

>>15723887
sorry I couldn't resist

>>15722036
I would guess some of Bruce Sterling's work is in a similar vein, seeing how he wrote a book together with Gibson.
See also pic related

I remember seeing a different picture that was posted semi-regularly in chart threads recently, that included Rudy Rucker and, I think, Vernor Vinge as well as K.W. Jetter.

>>15721231
>>15722894
That's generally speaking what SciFi (and really almost all genre fiction) is: cringey YA you read in your teen years.
There are a few exceptions like Gene Wolfe, but for the most part you should grow out of it.

>>15724483
look at this pseud, look at him and laugh

>>15723887
My one is comfy

>>15724678
that one's goofy but still cool as shit
>>15723928
creepy, but i still prefer it to the new one
>>15724278
fuck you fuck you

>>15724350
Thanks for the list, kind anon.

But wtf why are all lists of sci-fi works almost completely dominated by americans? Does nobody in Europe or otherwhere care to write some sci-fi?

>>15724350
>Altered Carbon
The TV show was incredibly mediocre and the fact there's some big overarching inter planetary plot and an AI named after Edgar Allan Poe rubs me wrong like Fall of Hyperion (i.e., in all the wrong places).

>>15723887
>>15724678
The finnish edition had pretty nice cover

>>15723024
>>15723102
>both entities try to control you by giving you what you want
really makes me think

>>15721150
i'm not going to lie, i read this book a long time ago and i really didn't think it was that good. i can appreciate its influence and all of that but i thought the writing was very poor; the ideas that came from it were pretty cool through.