/lit/ - Literature

>>15715515
Explain how
>dionysian living
Isn't spiritual. Oh wait, you can't because you have to assign arbitrary values to everything to do anything, values which are always mental and emotional in nature?

Consider suicide perhaps

>>15715527
Nietzsche's "spiritualism" is a lot different than what most people mean by spiritualism

>>15715527
how is dionysian living spiritual, simp? nietzsche was a materialist and an atheist, he had nothing to do you sub-priests.
consider actually reading his books perhaps

>>15715598
>do you
*do with you

>>15715515
>>15715579
>>15715598
These are the actual Nietzsche's natural readers:
>Anarchists
There aren't Nietzsche's natural readers:
>Statists
Period.

>>15715515
Lmaooo what a massive pseud

>>15715515
you must be a huge brainlet for asking this. So here is the answer.

nietzsche created nihilism. nietzsche said chirsanity was nihilism, but he created the nihilism of the secular humanist bourgeois that the middle class crave today.

nietzsche says that facts are irrelevant and created the moronic meme of creating one's values. this is how braindead he was and why the bourgeois took over. When you combine this with humanism, you get the mixture of capitalism with bourgeois humanism, bourgeois republic where the middle class feels righteous for just creating their won values through the goods they purchase. THe field of activities in the bourgeois republic, ie Purchasing goods and making capitalism thrive while shitting on capitalism during their arm chair philosophy time is the best basis of society that the bourgeois could have built for the middle class to feel smart and righteous while embracing an ideology which will always shit on them.


This is why the middle class likes nietzsche

>>15715634
nice, do "The Genealogy of Morals" now
>Who can guarantee that modern democracy, still more[Pg 26] modern anarchy, and indeed that tendency to the "Commune," the most primitive form of society, which is now common to all the Socialists in Europe, does not in its real essence signify a monstrous reversion—and that the conquering and master race—the Aryan race, is not also becoming inferior physiologically?)

>>15715668
>t. never read Nietzsche

>>15715668
>nietzsche says that facts are irrelevant and created the moronic meme of creating one's values.
t. hasn't never read nietzsche.
that second-hand quote you retards keep repeating is from a postumous sketch, which is written AGAINST SUBJECTIVISM, YOU RETARD, AGAINST IT. here is the full passage:

<<Against positivism, which halts at phenomena—”There are only facts“—I would say: No, facts are precisely what there is not, only interpretations. We cannot establish any fact “in itself”: perhaps it is folly to want to do such a thing.
“Everything is subjective,” you say; but even this is interpretation.
The “subject” is not something given [das „Subjekt“ ist nichts Gegebenes,], it is something added and invented and projected behind what there is. [Hinzu-Erdichtetes, Dahinter-Gestecktes]— Finally, is it necessary to posit an interpreter behind the intepretation? Even this is invention, hypothesis [dichtung, hypothese].
Insofar as the word “knowledge” has any meaning, the world is knowable; but it is interpretable otherwise, it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.— “Perspectivism&quot; [Soweit überhaupt das Wort „Erkenntniß“ Sinn hat, ist die Welt erkennbar: aber sie ist anders deutbar, sie hat keinen Sinn hinter sich, sondern unzählige Sinne „Perspektivismus“]. It is our needs that interpret the world; our drives and their For and Against. Every drive is a kind of lust to rule; each one has its perspective that it would like to compel all the other drives to accept as a norm.>>


you mistook nietzsche for some retroactively bergsonian or heideggerian peasant, well, he wasn't.

>>15715598
>how is it spiritual
Because it has everything to do with meaning and passion, which are spiritual pursuits.
>simp
Uh tranny dilate cope I guess

>>15715515
Demolish those fuckers, OP lmfao

>>15715737
> meaning
i said spiritual, simp.
> passion
it has nothing to with "passion" of course.
> spiritual pursuits
"spirit" is the death of both meaning (what does "spirit" even mean?) and dionysism:

<< The Overman is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: The Overman SHALL BE the meaning of the earth!
I conjure you, my brethren, REMAIN TRUE TO THE EARTH, and believe not those who speak unto you of superearthly hopes! Poisoners are they, whether they know it or not.
Despisers of life are they, decaying ones and poisoned ones themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so away with them! >>

Nietzsche criticized artists too you know

>>15715515
Do you only read those authors who you know you will agree with in advance? If yes, you've got a brain capacity of a fucking 5 year old child.

>>15715787
>spiritual equals super-earthly because we cannot empirically measure souls
Sure buddy

>quoting Nietzsche trying to prove your point

lol

>>15715802
no, "spirtual" doesn't equal "super-earthly" , it equals "ANTI-earthly"

>>15715819
Death-cults don't have a patent on the definition of spirit. Or are animists anti-earthly too?

>>15715515
Here's a better question: who gives a shit about what people that live rent-free in your head read, retard? This isn't even material for discussion, this is just you stating an opinion and expecting others to agree. Go to Reddit.

>>15715831
yes they are, they are just dumber, less refined, less intellectually rich than christians etc.

>>15715855
Explain how the belief that
>everything on earth is made of the same drive, the same will and force
Is anti-earthly. Because it evidently isn't.

>>15715515
>tfw you are
>an idealist
>romantic
>patrician
>poet
>artist
>music connoisseur
>and never read anything other than The Birth of Tragedy from him because Hegel is all I need

>>15715515
I just want to have an opinion on those that are revered. I like the idea that I was able to understand what they meant and was either able to evaluate it or understand an evaluation of it from some other, respected writer who spoke on the topic. It's a bit vain but I guess I just like the idea of being someone who's able to solidly speak on such topics.
I also think, for me, it would be good as well because it would allow me to evaluate the aspects of myself that perhaps need to be purged and why this is the case. You see, if I hadn't returned to the Church, I would've most definitely tried to pursue the Ubermensch-road, embracing this notion of myself being the "Captain of my Soul" as I read once. I still have yet to extinguish these fires, I just have this uninformed idea that they're just wrong and that's just how it is (something-something pride is wrong something-something).

>>15715634
Define "anarchist" because he shit on anarchists hard in some books.

>>15715598
>simp
Not even 4chan can escape the internet language-globalization

>>15715870
because drive, will and force, in the romantic way you use them (nietzsche was a radical anti-romanticist) , mean just: belief, faith, consolation, "liberation" for the matter.

>>15716163
> "liberation" for
"liberation" from

>>15715515
>filtered by the misogyny meme
nietzsche understood that women are the dionysian sex. the whip you were bringing was to be used on yourself. go back to schopenhauer.

>>15715783
t. OP

>>15715515
Read Seneca, anon. His Letters from a Stoic, check Letter II. And you will probably understand why those people do that.

>>15716181
> dionysian sex
deluded & incelpilled

>>15715515
Why would I only read things I agree with???

>>15715515
>implying his work isn't deeply religious

>>15715598
>was a materialist and an atheist
those are the Last Men he rips on, retard

>>15716477
what does it even mean?

>>15716487
read the quote in OP's pic
then again
then again
then again

>>15716490
zarathustra announcing the advent of the übermensch mirrors john the baptist paving the way for christ

>>15715515
Knowledge or truth or any catalyst of beneficial change is useful despite the source it came from.

>>15715515
so poets and artists aren't :
> christians
> idealists
> mysticists
> spiritualists
> romanticists
> existentialists

???

>>15715527
VALUES WHEN CONSIDERED AT A SUFFICIENTLY HIGH LEVEL ARE NOT ARBITRARY

THEY ARE INNATE

INDEED THEY ARE THE INNATE

FOR EVERY ACTION OF MAN IS A TENSION TOWARDS AN END THUS TO ACT MAN MUST PUT VALUE ON AN END ELSE HE WOULD NOT AIM AT THIS PARTICULAR END

REEVALUATING IS AN ACT

HENCE CHANGING OF VALUES IMPLIES YET ANOTHER HIGHER VALUE

READ SIMONE WEIL

>>15716603
not true poets. here is a quote by nietzsche issuing it:
> Irreligiousness of Artists. — Homer is so much at home among his gods and is as a poet so good natured to them that he must have been profoundly irreligious. That which was brought to him by the popular faith — a mean, crude and partially repulsive superstition — he dealt with as freely as the Sculptor with his clay, therefore with the same freedom that Æschylus and Aristophanes evinced and with which in later times the great artists of the renaissance, and also Shakespeare and Goethe, drew their pictures.

>>15716620
> a mean, crude and partially repulsive superstition
based fred.

>>15716620
You're basing this exaggeration on a small paragraph where he doesn't even say who is and isn't a "true poet"?

>>15716645
no im basing it on a years lasting frequentation of nietzschean texts.
im fucking tried of you heideggerian retards trying to make nietzsche pass for one of you.
and that was not a "paragraph" but an aphorism from human all too human

>>15716620
>a mean, crude and partially repulsive superstition
How original

>>15716670
"A human all too human" who can't even see worth in a poet beyond mere ideology and opposite views to his. Nietzsche was textbook School of Resentment.

>>15715678
>posts stuff written by his nazi sister
lol f*** off nazi scum

>>15715634
Whom do I hate most heartily among
the rabbles of today? The rabble of Socialists, the apostles to the Chandala, who undermine the workingman’s
instincts, his pleasure, his feeling of contentment with his
petty existence–who make him envious and teach him revenge.... Wrong never lies in unequal rights; it lies in the
assertion of ”equal” rights.... What is bad? But I have already answered: all that proceeds from weakness, from envy, from revenge.–The anarchist and the Christian have
the same ancestry....

oh no no no no

> patricians
But ancient Rome is dead and so are its inhabitants.

>>15715678
>>15716800
The Nazis got Nietzsche's ideas right more than any other group of whites. Such a shame that the working class was too big and unruly to accept it then.

>>15715634
Lmao, you cannot be an honest reader of Nietzsche and believe that he was sympathetic to “anarchists.” Do you understand what ressentiment is? What slave morality is?

>>15716308
Seneca is such a faggot. Massive hypocrite.

>>15716800
Please, and I cannot stress this enough, kill yourself.

>>15716863
>>15716968
baited

>>15715678
holy fucking based. this is gold.
>>15716800
> genealogy of morals
> written by his sister
kys

>holding on to pre-established concepts that are already existing
>reads the guy who wrote his entire work based on the idea that the true philosophy has yet to come
>"I love Nietzsche guys"

Everytime.

>>15715515
lmao, you don’t even understand nietzsche at a fundamental level. you are just using him to justify your atheism and your other -isms. you are just another sheep, you are no different from a Christian, you just think you’re superior

>>15717429
lmao now say it without crying.
i swear heideggerians are the lowest forms of life on earth, worse than neo-pagan witches and george floyd protestors.

>>15715515
I'm a liberal. I disagree with literally every author I read except for a few of their beliefs. I've never had a philosopher agree w me on most of my beliefs. If I did it your way I would never consume any philosophy kek.

>>15715515
huh?
>you can't read ANYTHING unless it corresponds exactly with your views
this is an incredible gate-keeping echo-chamber mentality. You want people to choose some strict definition for themselves and then never question their beliefs nor give new style to their character? Ok.... but I think you should try reading Nietzsche sometime for the proper response to your dumb thread

Lmao sure thing. Dostoevsky BTFO’d Nietzsche and he never even met him

>>15717078
"I was Just pretending to be retarded"

>>15717080
I read genealogy of morals and it literally isn't written that the aryan race is the master race you retard

>>15717610
he says it in the 5th chapter, here is the full quite which also shows his nordicism:

Latin malus (which I place side by side with μέλας) the vulgar man can be distinguished as the dark-coloured, and above all as the black-haired (“hic niger est”), as the pre-Aryan inhabitants of the Italian soil, whose complexion formed the clearest feature of distinction from the dominant blondes, namely, the Aryan conquering race: — at any rate Gaelic has afforded me the exact analogue — Fin (for instance, in the name Fin-Gal), the distinctive word of the nobility, finally — good, noble, clean, but originally the blonde-haired man in contrast to the dark black-haired aboriginals. The Celts, if I may make a parenthetic statement, were throughout a blonde race; and it is wrong to connect, as Virchow still connects, those traces of an essentially dark-haired population which are to be seen on the more elaborate ethnographical maps of Germany with any Celtic ancestry or with any admixture of Celtic blood: in this context it is rather the pre-Aryan population of Germany which surges up to these districts. (The same is true substantially of the whole of Europe: in point of fact, the subject race has finally again obtained the upper hand, in complexion and the shortness of the skull, and perhaps in the intellectual and social qualities. Who can guarantee that modern democracy, still more modern anarchy, and indeed that tendency to the “Commune,” the most primitive form of society, which is now common to all the Socialists in Europe, does not in its real essence signify a monstrous reversion — and that the conquering and master race — the Aryan race, is not also becoming inferior physiologically?) I believe that I can explain the Latin bonus as the “warrior”: my hypothesis is that I am right in deriving bonus from an older duonus (compare bellum-duellum = duen-lum, in which the word duonus appears to me to be contained). Bonus accordingly as the man of discord, of variance, “entzweiung” (duo), as the warrior: one sees what in ancient Rome “the good” meant for a man.

>>15717602

>>15715515
....you know, American christians were actually one of Neitzches biggest fans an audiences durring his lifetime when he wasnt very popular, funnily enough

>>15715515
I'm neck-deep in occultism and I like Nietzsche. I consider the fixation on his atheism and materialism to be an indicator that the person I'm talking to doesn't fully understand his worldview.

>>15716620
>that amount of cope
Nietzsche was such a pseud that it's beyond belief

>>15716800
>muh sister boogieman
>NOOO NIETZSCHE IS A LIBERAL MORALIST BELIEVE ME

>>15715515
>>mysticists
>>spiritualists
>>romanticists
>aren't
>>poets and artists
>>music connoisseurs
>>seekers of non consolatory philosophies to counter nihilism
>nietzsche was a materialist and determinist
"Saying Yes to life even in its strangest and hardest problems; the will to life rejoicing over its own inexhaustibly even in the very sacrifice of its highest types---that is what I called Dionysian, that is what I understood as2 the bridge to the psychology of the tragic poet. Not in order to get rid of terror and pity, not in order to purge oneself of a dangerous affect by its vehement discharge---Aristotle misunderstood it that way-but in order to be oneself the eternal joy of becoming, beyond all terror and pity---that joy which includes even joy in destroying." In this sense I have the right to understand myself as the first tragic philosopher---that is, the most extreme opposite and antipode of a pessimistic philosopher. Before me this transposition of the Dionysian into a philosophical pathos did not exist: tragic wisdom was lacking; I have looked in vain for signs of it even among the great Greeks in philosophy, those of the two centuries before Socrates. I retained some doubt in the case of Heraclitus, in whose proximity I feel altogether warmer and better than anywhere else. The affirmation of passing away and destroying, which is the decisive feature of a Dionysian philosophy; saying Yes to opposition and war; becoming, along with a radical repudiation of the very concept of being---all this is clearly more closely related to me than anything else thought to date. The doctrine of the "eternal recurrence that is, of the unconditional and infinitely repeated circular course of all things---this doctrine of Zarathustra might in the end have been taught already by Heraclitus. At least the Stoa has traces of it, and the Stoics inherited almost all of their principal notions from Heraclitus.

Nietzsche never fully read the 'late Neoplatonists', the true Dionysians, which is a great shame.

>>15715515
>> materialists
lolwut

>>15715527
>Isn't spiritual. Oh wait, you can't because you have to assign arbitrary values to everything to do anything, values which are always mental and emotional in nature?
>you have to assign
You're missing the point - N's metaphysics and ontology don't allow for assigning anything, at it's core it's pan-experiential and naturalistic.

>>15715598
>nietzsche was a materialist and an atheist
This isn't true at all - Heidegger touches on the strange metaphysical base of "will to power" that he gets to in his notes.

>implying quoteniggers read nietzsche
Even if they read, not like they could understand what they read kek

>>15717814
i hate americans so goddamn much

>>15716181
You stole that line from Capote.

>>15718263
The myth of Dionysus is that the whole universe and all multiplicity and decay is borne from the Titans tearing the divine child apart. The World and every soul is a fragmentation and Echo of a dead God.
But he is one day reborn and will raise all reality up with him (and eventually die again).
>They fashioned a tomb for You, holy and high One, But You are not dead: You live and abide forever, For in You we live and move and have our being.
And Before you say that's Zeus, Dionysus IS Zeus.

>>15716620
Odysseus has a choice between killing a priest and a poet and butcher the fuck out of the priest because killing the poet would offend the Gods.

Nietzsche is barely even a philosopher. I don't get why he has so much hype

>>15718318
Dionysus is a concept that evolves from destruction to an incorporation of Apollo that represents creations and destruction as a process - a symbol of will to power.
>Have I been understood? - Dionysus versus the crucified.

>>15715515
> mysticists
N was an irrationalist and a mystic though?
> women
His chapter on women comes straight after his chapter on why nationalists are fucking idiots for clinging to pre-conceptions - he was aware that his sexism was incongruous.
>> materialists
You haven't read N - or worse you skipped straight to him.

>>15718357
Yes, it is the fundamental difference between Christianity and the rest of the world.
https://youtu.be/A96T7pc3wog

>>15715515
>why do
>christians
>even read nietzsche?
Because the form of bat shit insane Reich fuelled Lutheranism that he criticizes is not representative of most of the Christian religions. Contrast the bonfire of the vanities to modern day "let's all send presents to children in africa" and "community cake bake day" attitudes.

>>15718398
That was cool.

>>15718351

>>15718318
>They fashioned a tomb for You, holy and high One, But You are not dead: You live and abide forever, For in You we live and move and have our being.
Wasn't the point of this that Cretans are shit heads?

>>15718186
>the 'late Neoplatonists', the true Dionysians
elaborate

>>15715515
The saddest thing about neechee is that he never got around to reading or having an in person conversation with Kierkegaard.

>>15718519
>>15718318
>>15718398
>elaborate
if you wish

>>15718530
they'll have plenty of time to talk in Hell

>>15718530
nietzsche talked very much of von hartmann , that is the link between kierkegaard (romanticism) and bergson (vitalism). he obviously despised him to the bone.
the relationship between nietzsche and von hartmann is the ultimate proof that any existentialist "interpretation" of n. is delusional and cognitively impaired.
of course no more than 1-2 anons on /lit/ have even seen that name (von hartmann) before my post, let alone having read him.

>>15718604
>kierkegaard (romanticism)
Erm. What?

>>15716863
HAHAHAHA holy shit you're retarded

Nice LARP btw

>>15715515
shitty bait but i'll bite
you know you can read philosophers you don't necessarily agree with, right?
and i believe it's important to understand your position in relation to others by learning about them
i.e. “one recognizes one's course by discovering the paths that stray from it”

>>15718623
crypto romanticism

>>15717702
His sister was notorious for adding racist and anti-semetic views. If you knew anything about Nietzsche, you would know that he compared anti-semites to 'aborted fetuses' and anti-semitism was one of the reasons he broke from Richard Wagner's circle

>>15718623
kierkegaard is a full romantic. possibly the only non-idealist romantic philosopher (schopenhauer was an enlightener, as he himself states multiple times, nietzshce himeslf calls schopenhauer a "voltairean from head to toe").

>>15718635
>yet another faggot who doesn't read and understands nothing about Nietzsche or Hitler

>>15718651
AGAIN: that quote is from the genealogy of morality, which is not a postumous work he published it and introduced it.
and he was an anti-antisemitic because anti-semitism was a symptom of ressentiment, not because hw was friends with the fucking jews, in fact he calls them THE people of ressentiment, and a people of liars and tchandala.
and a marginal issue like the jews had nothing to do with his sepratation from wagner, moron.

>>15718675
>The will to power
Fucking hell you're actually retarded. Even professional N scholars struggle to pull out which bits of that are nazi pripaganda.

>>15718651
N's comments on Jews would 100% be characterised as anti-semetic today and more or less amount to "you fucked up the world but you done it REALLY WELL" - he just didn't appear so in relation to the people around him at the time. He more hated them for being annoyingly "German" than anything.

>>15718699
If you don't read Will to Power on this completely outdated premise then you fell for anti-Nazi propaganda.

>>15718699
all the aphorisms in the will to power are nietzsche's. koselitz (nietzsche's assistant and friend for those like you who haven't read nietzsche) and the sister just selected and arranged them following one of his book plans.

>>15718724
>>15718727
If you're going to summarise Tanner it would be best to do so after actually reading him.

>>15715515
>why would someone read something that disagrees with them
back to the containment board retard

>>15718750
Begone tarantula!

>>15716620
Why can’t the artists the other anon listed be as irreligious as Homer?

>>15715515

>>15718874
Imagine explaining this image to Nietzsche

>>15715515
> believers in ghosts/soul/magic
You've missed the point of his hatred of Christianity - at it's core it hates the unpleasant parts of life and praises a life "beyond" this one - it replaces the will to power (or life) with a will to literal nothingness, judging life as worthless through it's own lens.
Believing in ghosts or magic is hardly the same thing and there are plenty of religious traditions where the soul is not an individual phenomena.

Slightly off-topic

Can I get a list, in order from first to last, of the books I should read by FN?

Always wanted to dive in but not sure where to start.

>>15718971
>Homer
>heraclitus
>plato
>aristotle
>descartes
>kant
>hegel
>spinoza
>schopenhauer
>kauffman's intro
>tanner intro
>all N publications in author except will to power
>a guide to the unpublished notes
You can't jump straight in sorry. Summaries of the list are fine.

>>15718991
You forgot Goethe and Schiller.
>a guide to the unpublished notes
Just say Nachlass, which is just Will to Power but not as clean.

>>15718991
I just finished Plato’s Five Dialogues and I’m working through Xenophon’s Conversations with Socrates. Next is Republic.

Wasn’t intending to go straight to Nietzsche But there are so many works I wanted to get a list of the more important ones.

>>15715515
You spend too much time putting ideas into boxes.

Are Kaufmann’s translations reliable? I don’t care if the footnotes are pozzed. I just don’t want to be jewed

>>15715598
This post was made by a bot don’t respond to it

>>15719541
I haven't seen any proof demonstrating that his translations aren't reliable beyond really minor nitpicks that don't obscure Nietzsche's ideas anyway.

he more or less a horror writer, complete with a monster and everything.

I know it’s a bait thread, but this board gets more pathetic by the month

>>15718941
>judging life as worthless through it's own lens.

That even wishful thinking makes the world worthless, never mind Reason, further condemns the world. Mere actuality not only not being Epistemologically definitive, but being null altogether. The world cannot even be without my contempt.

>>15716163
>mean just: belief, faith, consolation, "liberation" from matter
Not really how I used it. Perhaps how the strawman in your mind uses it.

>>15715634
Anarchism as a political position has absolutely nothing Nietzschean about it. It's pure herd mentality. If by anarchism you mean the individual anarchism of Junger's Anarch then i agree.

>>15718651
Is this Philosophy Cuck? If so, you’re willfully misinterpreting Nietzsche.

>>15718680
Bingo. Here is an honest reader of Nietzsche.

every neetzche poster here is a pseud, literally every single one

>>15718680
This
People don't read, this isn't even that hard to deduce if you just read

>>15723464
Not reading is a problem, but so is willfully misinterpreting and trying to force Nietzsche into a category which conforms with one’s prejudices.
>Nietzsche was really an anarchist guys!!
>and he HATED anti-semitism!! so he is clearly a leftist!
>he would have LITERALLY voted for Bernie xD