/lit/ - Literature

>>15678031
Because he was a overly feminine homosexual with nothing interesting to say. Only women and sissies enjoy him and they rightly belong on r*ddit.

Because it's taken for granted at this point that he's one of the best novelists who ever lived. It's like asking why there aren't any Bach threads on /mu/.
>>15678150
Also this

>>15678031
/lit/ doesn't read that much, and only the meme-able stuff. Proust is a very well-known novelist, but he's not part of the approachable mainstream like Dostoyevsky or Kafka (nor was he popularised 'online' by certain internet demagogues), so he can't be babby's first step into real literature. His main work is also terribly long, which is a turn off for the ADD-riddled gamer-readers of /lit/.

I love Proust myself, but the few times I've tried to discuss him on /lit/ the thread's died off after a dozen replies.

>>15678261
I've seen Proust talked about many times on this board but rarely about the actual content of his books.
>I love Proust myself
What do you love about him?

>>15678031
>>15678261

My problem is that isn't In Search of Lost Time like 4,000 pages long? Furthermore I've even heard Proust fans call much of it boring.

A part of me is interested to see what all the hype is about, but another part of me doesn't want to read 4,000 pages of which most of it is described as boring even by Proust fans.

>>15678262
>What do you love about him?
I love his prose, the long sentences that can go on and on, forcing you to 'let go' of your grip and just go along with it; he's a pain to read if you use the same technique you'd use to read Hemingway, where every sentence is a neat, easily digestible unit. I love the psychological analysis in his works, where one gets not only a superficial idea of what a character is like, but also their interior workings. And most of all, I love his ability to plant seeds within the story that he later returns to, having spent the last 200 pages nurturing them without the reader realising it. This is probably a bit too vague for your liking, but it's difficult for me to really express what I feel regarding Proust, it all becomes quite abstract to me beyond "prose".

>>15678271
I'd hesitate to call any of it 'boring'. Proust is a humorous writer with fantastic prose; even when he's describing what should be a boring dinner involving the narrator and his parents, it's still a joy to read. You really need to be patient with him, though; don't expect a tight plotline to follow, though there *is* plot, if only for the reader to truly realise it at the end.

What I recommend both of you anons to do is to read the first part; Swann's Way. The first half of it concerns his/the narrator's childhood summers in Combray, France, including the famous Madeline cake-scene. The second half is the stellar "novel within a novel" about Charles Swann and his growing obsession with the society cocotte Odette de Crécy, which mirrors the narrator's own obsessive love affair later in the full novel. It works well enough on its own, and for many people it's all they ever read of Proust. You'll know if you like him or not by the end.

>>15678328
Can you recommend other novels that deal with time besides Magic Mountain and The Tartar Steppe?

>>15678378
You preempted what would've been my answer with the Magic Mountain there. I'm afraid I haven't read much on the subject other than Mann and Proust. I've read many other books that chronicle a longer period, enough for them to acknowledge time and its effects, but none of them have really touched upon the subject in the same way that those two novelists did.

>>15678378
Doktor Faustus

>>15678378
times arrow, its gimmicky af though

>>15678378
the sound and the fury

>>15678378
ficciones

>>15678150
OR because he wrote the longest novel ever written, and you and most of the other primates who post in here don't read, as we can safely infer from your post

>>15678378
The Rings of Saturn, Sebald

>>15678261
>likes reading
>long work is a turn off
This is where you spot the pseud. There is no reason not to enjoy long works if you like reading. The only reason is that you have a short attention span and reading long stuff feels like a chore. If you enjoy the activity of reading in itself, Proust is top tier experience

>Do you think that Corneille, Moliere, Racine, who are popular among the crowds, are popular? No, they aren't. Their name perhaps but for their verses? No. The crowd has read them once, without understanding them. And so who rereads them? Artists alone.
The rabble have no right to admire him.

>>15678328
Patrician anon. I agree with everything you said.
I would add that he is possibly the greatest phenomenologist of the human psyche to ever hold a pen. His characters are extremely real and vivid, and his ability to penetrate and examine human mental experience from all possible perspective is unparallelled in literature. What I find absolutely stunning about Proust is how much he has to say about literally everything. In terms of creativity, it is almost super-human to be capable to section and analyse experience to the point that you can produce so much insightful text about it.
And after seven volumes, it really feels like getting some sort of weird enlightnement: he brought you with him into this analysis of the psychic experience of "recollecting", and then it sorts of bursts out of itself, and shows you what it is really about - and you see it! Not because it has been "explained" to you, but because you have experienced it through reading. Truly the greatest novelist alongside with Joyce, in my opinion.

>>15678031
He wrote exit-core. Faggots here can barely read what Reddit can.
>>15678150
Prime example of a pleb.

>>15678271
>My problem is that isn't In Search of Lost Time like 4,000 pages long?
More like 2,000 pages long.

>>15679508
>novels

>>15679574
That's very well put, anon. Thank you!

>>15679652
>More like 2,000 pages long.
The lowest page count I have ever seen was 3500. What edition could possibly be 2000 pages long?

>>15678031
Because people like boring reddit short sentences

>>15679694
One edition in French published by Gallimard has it at 2400 pages.

Which translation should I read?

>>15679955
If you intend to read it in english, then the C. K. Scott Moncrieff is the one to go. I am not an anglophone, but I have read a few excerpts of it (namely, from my edition of Eric Karpeles' "Paintings in Proust", a neat visual companion to Proust's constant references to paintings), and it seemed stellar. I think most languages have only the one translation, and it was only recently that Penguin published a new translation in english, though I've only ever seen or heard the Moncrieff editions discussed.

>>15679758
I wonder what's up with the wild differences in page count? The Penguin edition seems to be 3300 pages, and I'm quite sure my edition is at least 3500.

>>15678031
Proust is too patrician for a board full of /pol/niggers, plebs and - may Allah forgive me for uttering this word - redditors.

>>15678031
because /lit/ doesn't pay attention to anything anymore

Not memey or relevant to current events.

>>15678031
Before /lit/ was a political zoomer board we had lots of Proust threads. Now it's full of people like >>15678150 >>15678192 who aren't familiar with his work and lack the patience to get through the thousands of pages.

is proust an impressionist writer? are his other artistic homologues manet and debussy?

>>15678031
big long book about one gay's day
no thanks, I already read fucking Ulysses

embarrassing thread

/lit/ is made up of a bunch of twenty somethings with internet addictions who read stumble through the first 50 pages of ulysses and then quit. you really think may people here have actually committed to proust? I actually read books and I don't want to touch that french fool until I'm retired and have shit else to do.

Is the wikipedia page on the Dreyfus affair enough of a preparation for the third volume of ISoLT?

Proust has the most beautiful prose I've ever read. The sentences just go on and on creating an aria of images and aphorisms around you and when the sentence ends you just feel awed at seeing so much in such a few lines.

Though some of it is hard no doubt. Virginia Woolf was very inspired by his style as well.

Read Proust and stop shit posting, you won't regret it. The second part of first book where he talks about Swann and his obsessive love is just so perfect and timeless.

>>15678031
I'm not a fan of authors who don't deal with issues of life and death. I don't understand them. To me, that's not literature. A lot of writers who are considered good I consider strange.

>>15678031
I only read swann’s way and it was worth it but Idk if I could commit to the rest of the series.SW was surprisingly funny and poignant at times but it also dragged in parts.too much other stuff out there to read and too little time.maybe I’ll read the rest throughout the years but to tackle them in a row is a hell of a commitment

>>15678328
I'm reading the whole work and I agree with you. Sometimes he's hardcore, but other are breath taking. It's hard to explain but he changed for some aspects how I see the world. A bit more specific, how I absorb and process some informations. My favorite book for now (I'm almost 2/3 in) was the third, because there aren't many boring parts and I felt really "close" and "connected" to the protagonist.
>>15679758
My (non french) edition has ≈2300 pages. They are very dense with words

>>15683610
>It's hard to explain but he changed for some aspects how I see the world.
I think Proust helped me become both more empathetic and perhaps forgiving of people's quirks and faults; he has a way of constructing these ridiculous characters - pastiche and parody on figures of society of his own time, no doubt - and evicerating them under the gaze of the narrator, but then gives them these redeeming qualities, which if they do not wholly 'justify' the character's silly behaviour, at the very least contextualises and explains it. But most of all, I think he's made me more of an aesthete; I had a hard time grasping the visual arts before I read Proust, my aesthetic interest laid mostly in music and literature. It's not that he necessarily told me *how* to view paintings, but more that he gave me the courage to dwell on them in a way I hadn't, to give them the time of day; my greatest experience viewing a painting before this had been with Rembrandt's Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis, which did stir something within me, but I think it only managed to grab ahold of my attention because of its sheer size and the immediately apparent genius of the artist - those were the only reasons I gave it any real attention.

>>15683532
I really hope that you're baiting. How does Proust not deal with these topics? Did you even read the first volume of "In Search of Lost Time"?

>>15683805
Not the guy you're replying to but I look at least somewhat differently at people chasing women etc. after reading the second volume of his work (you surely recall all the segments in which the narrator contemplates the beauty of the girls in the place he's in etc.).

I can't be the only here who legitimately read it and thought it was meh?

>>15683532
Put it in quotes, butthole.

>>15679561
Is it bad if I always pronounced Mallarme in my head and out loud in the Spanish pronunciation despite having learnt French just as well

And yes I have had a few very specific occasions where I've namedropped Mallarme IRL in a semi-relevant way

>>15683408
Just watching a Youtube video is enough but with Proust the answer to why someone is or against Dreyfus is never just how it is but why it is, so you'll get no clear-cut positions anyway

>>15684171
It’s a Corncob McCarthy quote

>>15678328
> love his prose, the long sentences that can go on and on, forcing you to 'let go' of your grip and just go along with it

That's a great way to put it. Also, in many of his sentences, he takes you off on a ride and then drops you off where you started, and you're suddenly surprised to find yourself back where you began. It's exactly like his father taking his family on long, tortuous walks through Combray and arriving back at home after dark, asking the mother "do you know where we are, my dear?" She (and everyone else) feels completely lost, but then he points out that they're somehow back at home, and his mom is amazed and Marcel feels as if he effortlessly floats the rest of the distance to their house.

As you say, he also is wonderful at portraying characters in a really hilarious way.

I'd also say to people who are worried about starting a novel this long that they should just try it. Say you're only going to read the first book and see how it goes. That's what I did, I'm still not sure I'll finish it but I'm almost done with the second book and the experience has already been well worth it. In fact, every single page has been worth it. None of it has dragged yet, in my opinion (I'm sure many disagree with me). It's incredible that he can write such a long book where every page seems to be bursting with value and insight. On the other hand, it also makes it more daunting, because you don't want to forget any single event in the book. I'll also say that this book is the most memorable I've read. I've never read a book where I found it so easy to recall the most minute details about such a great number of characters. It's as if you're living with them.

>>15680334
I would also second the C. K. Scott Moncrieff translations (as well as the Terence Kilmartin revision). The revision is not too extensive save for the final volume - - Moncrieff never translated the final one).

>>15684330
I think that the second volume has both higher highs and lower lows when compared to the first volume, although there aren't many lows in the second volume. The only ones I recall are the segments in the first part related to fashion (they went over my head since I am not into that kind of thing) and a few segments in the second part. It's a great shame, though, that the second part doesn't have more segments related to Marcel's life in the countryside before he got enchanted by the girls (the greatest and most comfy part of the volume was the part describing his and his grandmother's interactions with the other people at the hotel).

>>15684330
Oh, also, to answer OP's question. I think there are many reasons. He doesn't have extreme politics that will impress your internet friends like Mishima, he doesn't "filter plebs" like Joyce (in that his writing is perfectly comprehensible to common people, even if it's not easy to read), and he isn't one of the Greeks. He also isn't as meme-able as other authors this board mentions often. Also, reading Proust makes you want to discuss Proust or read more Proust, not show everybody that you read Proust as if it made your dick three inches longer.

>>15684375
I'm at the part in Balbec now, I agree that it's one of the best parts of the novel so far. Riding around with Mme. de Villeparisis is extremely enjoyable, and the Baron de Charlus is one of the most endearing and funny characters I've ever read. It felt so spontaneous and real when he pinched Marcel's neck not long after they met.

I think I should re-read "Madame Swann at Home." I definitely didn't absorb it nearly as well as the other sections of the novel so far. It could be because it is really not as good as the rest of the book, though. I think the fashion section did get a bit tedious to me, because I also didn't know what half of the words meant, but I also feel like it fleshed out Odette's character reading about her wardrobe. Funnily enough, it made her seem less shallow and more intelligent and sensitive than she seemed in "Swann in Love."

>>15684503
>It could be because it is really not as good as the rest of the book, though
I disagree, although that part does have its lows, e.g. the fashion segment and I'd also add the part in which Marcel contemplates about his love for Odette's daughter (it really drags on and it felt too samey at times).
>Funnily enough, it made her seem less shallow and more intelligent and sensitive than she seemed in "Swann in Love."
I think that's the point, as she adapted to being Swann's wife so we see her be much more dominant as she has way more control over Swann once they get married. One of the best moments of the first volume, in my opinion, is the nonchalant plot twist, when it's revealed that Swann maries Odette, even though the ending to the "Swann in love" segment implied that he got over her.

>>15684528
> I disagree, although that part does have its lows
That's more what I meant. The friendship with Bergotte was wonderful, and the episode with Cottard curing him with milk was hilarious. The early parts of the romance between him and Gilberte were also great, as were all the times M. de Norpois shot him down (which put the interactions with Bergotte in an even more warm light). There were just parts that I was not as invested in while reading them, and that lead to a sense of discontinuity in my memory of that section.

I also agree that fleshing out Odette's character is the point of his discussions of her wardrobe. Not sure about the "dominant" thing though, she seemed to be much more dominant during Swann in Love when she would act without any respect at all for his feelings or plans (leaving him the moment she got a call to go out with a friend, for instance, or asking him to let her stay at that castle with the Verdurin clan without him).

Also, that plot twist was great. I felt like I knew it had to be coming but I truly hoped that it wasn't going to be Odette.

>>15678031
I liked the first two volumes but part 1 of the Guermantes Way is really fucking boring. I hope part 2 picks up.

>>15683532
Cormac, if you had bothered to read it you'd find hundreds of pages devoted to life and death.

>>15678150
>Because he was a overly feminine homosexual with nothing interesting to say
looks like the average /lit/ poster

>>15683499
I find d'Annunzio even better, but Proust's prose is both beautiful and easy to read.

>>15684812
>as were all the times M. de Norpois shot him down
I might be biased, but isn't M. de Norpois supposed to be a character which is ridiculed? I got that impression from both the text and the notes that the edition I was reading had (they were great notes, I wish I could find the same edition for other volums). He's a blinded conservative and the only reason he shoots down others is because of how offensive he is in his speeches.
>Not sure about the "dominant" thing though
I recall getting that feeling in every scene in which Swann appears, as you can see him lagging behind his wife in a sense that she leads the main conversation and he also tries to justify or find excuses for certain things his wife says, as if he's embarrassed or something.
>Also, that plot twist was great
Absolutely, although there's another plot twist which is just as great if not even better, and it happens in the Balbec section, you'll know when it happens. I think it's a really strong plot twist and that it sends a great message.
By the way, I have read only the first two volumes. I plan on reading the third one this summer. I thought of going at a pace of one volume a year, but Proust managed to pull me in more than I expected.

>>15687143
Which one? Don't be afraid to spoil to me, I'm the guy at 2/3. I plan to finish for the end of 2020, also because I might do my University thesys about this book.
>>15686915
What a patrician picture. Anyway, in that book there's an extremely boring part, I feel you bro. I'd say 150 pages (in my 2300 pages edition) about aristocracy and the Guermantes

>>15678031
because /lit/ hasn't read him

>>15679533
>There is no reason not to enjoy long works if you like reading.
>If you enjoy the activity of reading in itself, Proust is top tier experience
Just because something is long doesn't also make it good. If you want to read for the sake of reading, just open a dictionary or a phone book. If people complain about it being too long, probably the issue isn't the length in itself, but the fact that the content is not enjoyable, or that the enjoyable parts are diluted by parts where nothing happens. Of course, it's all a matter of taste, but can you really write thousands of pages and objectively make them all interesting and meaningful?

>>15688210
>Don't be afraid to spoil to me, I'm the guy at 2/3
I understood the "2/3" thing incorrectly, thinking you were referring to volume 2 and not to the ISoLT as a whole. In that case, the plot twist I am referring to is the reveal that the painter in volume 2 is actually the guy everyone made fun of at the Verdurins. It made a real impact on me that someone of his caliber could improve himself that much, and the part where he says to Marcel that we have to accept our old selves and the embarrassing things that happened to us as something necessary really resonated with me.

>>15678031

It's too fucking long for any /lit/tard on this site to read when the majority have the attention span of an oversized walrus.

>>15680334
I really liked the Lydia Davis but I didn't realize she wasn't doing the whole thing, I guess I should just start over with Moncrieff.

>>15689279
I forgot that part sadly. There are many characters and is difficult to keep in mind all of them. As for the other part, it really hit close to home to me, too

>>15679955
The Moncrieff translation is a masterpiece in its own right, like Rabassa's Cien Años. Definitely go with Moncrieff.

>>15678150
Based

>>15682703
His prose is definitely very ethereal and dreamlike, I don't know if general academic consensus would agree with me but Impressionism seems like a good fit.

>>15689301
God forbid I value my time and desire conciseness in my literature.

>>15689545
I might be projecting but I also feel that Proust is saying something about himself as well. Based on the annotations which I had for the second volume, it seems as if Proust regretted some of his behaviour related to homosexuality and treatment of his parents, so he might be trying to reconcile his feelings about the things like those that he regrets.

>>15689301
I have a low attention span and I'm still reading it. I find it relaxing when a work is so long that I have the certainty that every theme or character will be written about again, sooner or later.

>>15689791
This theme will be really relevant in the next book. You will probabily find it interesting

>>15690281
I'm sure I will. I'm just somewhat sad that the final three volumes aren't as good as the previous ones (at least I saw a few people claim that), but seeing this is Proust we're talking about, even if those aren't on the level of the former volumes they are still above and beyond many other works, I'm sure.

>>15684190
They aren't that many people who think he's meh anon. Most haven't read him and have a variety of irrelevant meme opinion about him, and the few who have read him mostly admire him.

So in this case, you might actually be one of very few.

>>15684200
>And yes I have had a few very specific occasions where I've namedropped Mallarme IRL in a semi-relevant way
This is both pseud and based, so pretty much peak /lit/.

>Proust
Juif homosexuel. Racontar de la vie de la bourgeoisie juive, aucun intérêt.

>>15689301
wtf I want to be an oversized walrus now

>>15690455
>action française meme guy at it again
Ngl, that guy's a great memer.

>>15690328
> I'm just somewhat sad that the final three volumes aren't as good as the previous ones (at least I saw a few people claim that)
Not the other anon, but fwiw my father (who is very /lit/) told me The Fugitive was his favorite part. I believe Henry Miller also thought highly of it.

>>15690507
>my father (who is very /lit/)
That's pretty cool. What are his favorite books?

>>15690328
I'm almost at the end of the fourth one, which has been often nice. I hope that the last three won't be boring

bump

>>15687078
>d'Annunzio

Have any anons read that new translation of Jozef Czapski's 'Lectures on Proust in a Soviet Prison Camp'? I'm about a thousand pages into the big work itself, and I'm unsure if I should pause to read the lectures. As silly as it sounds, I don't want to get "spoiled".

>>15692349

>>15687143
I wouldn't quite say that M. de Norpois is there to be ridiculed, but he seems to be dismissive because he lacks the genius and sensitivity of someone like Bergotte. I think Marcel's interactions with Bergotte sort of refute the way that Norpois just dismisses Marcel. Especially when Marcel says that really intelligent people like Bergotte have a way of contradicting people without being dismissive.


Yeah, in a way you're right about Odette dominating him in book 2. Although it's much less brutal than how she treats him in book 1. Also He's not obsessed with her anymore so she doesn't have that sort of absolute control over him in book 2. I think that him being in the background is also caused by their personalities, even though Swann likes to aggrandize his wife's connections in volume 2, he is still a pretty quiet guy compared to Odette, and I don't remember him acting very vain around Marcel.

>>15692779
>but he seems to be dismissive
I guess it's a kind of a stereotype for conservatives to be dismissive although this surely isn't always the case
>because he lacks the genius and sensitivity of someone like Bergotte
I disliked Bergotte's behaviour and I think he wasn't shown in a very positive light either; I recall reading somewhere that the only positive character in the entire saga is Marcel's grandmother and I can understand that kind of viewpoint.
>Although it's much less brutal than how she treats him in book 1
I agree. It's more subtle, but did I feel bad for him, seeing him get bossed around so much. She also tries to make him look completely ridiculous and he also can't talk about the intellectual topics he's well-versed in since she doesn't know anything about those (nor does her circle of friends). I think that anyone who takes Proust seriously will think twice about marriage after reading his works.
>and I don't remember him acting very vain around Marcel
I don't remember that either. He looks pretty down to earth.

It's so sad you're all reading translations. Nothing beats Proust's prose, but you can only appreciate it if you know french.

He wrote a whole book about his bed.

>>15692611
Please tell me there's more memes about him. Nice dubs

>>15678378
Unironically, infinite jest.

>>15678192
>Bach
Strange way to spell Sun Ra

>>15683532
Cormac you are old, I'm here to remind you that corona is deadly in people your age and you should keep social distancing longer.

>>15678378
Le Rivage des Syrtes

>>15692871
I know French and I'm reading it in Spanish, it keeps well, romance languages are good inter-translations.

>>15678378
2666 - bolaño
which is also the greatest novel of the last 40 years.

>>15678031
His books are boring.

>>15692847
> I recall reading somewhere that the only positive character in the entire saga is Marcel's grandmother

That's an interesting take, and I'll have to see where all of these characters go and what they all end up doing, but I feel almost the opposite. Nobody in the book is perfect, but they all have good qualities. I don't think that Proust is portraying any of the characters in any sort of consistent light, so to speak. I also disagree that Bergotte is portrayed in a negative way. Marcel doesn't agree with everything he says or does, but he respects his genius a lot. And the fact that Bergotte took a liking to him after he admired his work for so long makes their interactions a bit special. Do you remember how he described Bergottes conversations? He's initially let down but then he realizes how they reflect his originality and genius. Pic related. I'm surprised you'd see him as being portrayed in a negative light.

He's not without his flaws, like when he recommends a new doctor to Marcel. That seems a bit stupid, and it annoys Marcel. I could have missed some other more telling exchanges between him and Marcel, or I might have just not gotten to a part that portrays him more negatively yet.

test

Is Proust's prose at least half as good as McCarthy's?

>>15694819
Were you banned?

I read Swann's Way. I'm glad I read it but I'm also glad it's over.
It might be an issue of a particular translation I've picked (a newer and fuller russian one by Bayevskaya) but I've particularly enjoyed only about 20% of the book; those 20% were so beautiful it felt an ecstatic high when I read them, and I only finished because of them.

The first part (ending with the madeleine) is god-tier, the Swann's love part starts good but ends up meandering in the middle, and the last part - with protag's first love - is great too.