/lit/ - Literature

1984

>>15645223
i mean it in philosophical terms, i'm not looking for a novel

>>15645203
Schopenhauer

Proudhon

Literally Nations and Nationalism by Gellner

>>15645203
There's a book btyHobsbawm (marxist) on how states deliberately created nations in the XIX Century but honestly it's all retarded

>>15645277
Proudhon was a proud French nationalist like Sorel and Maurras, idk what are you talking about butterfly
But how r u? :3

>imagine defining yourself entirely on the basis that you are a victim because of something that happened 100 years before you were born

It's cringe but so are "World citizens" or just a human bean people. Ethnicity is definitely real though

>>15645361
yeah they only care because they know that this is an easy way to exploit whitey and get what they want

people genuinely think capitalists invented the french and the english?

>>15645203
>Imagine being so brain-dead that you don't see the greatness of Nationalism

>>15645409
nah, the kangs and queens who conquered a land forced a uniform identity on their subjects

>>15645423
Collective identity wasn't forced by leaders. Forced collective identity is a modern capitalist phenomenon

>imagine defining yourself entirely on the media you consoooome

>>15645203
>>imagine defining yourself on the basis of which state owns you
You got it backwards. In nationalism, the people are the most important thing and the state is referenced as being composed of said people. If a separate and distinct people were to translocate to anywhere else on the planet then the new location could form the new homeland for them, but they remain the same people.

>>15645203
>Any books that deal with the retarded concept of nation and nationalism as an ideology for braindead masses?

"Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism" by Benedict Anderson

>>15645444
you must learn history, for example only 2% of italians spoke what is now considered italian before the unification, before the french revolution on 3 million people in france spoke french out of 25 million
the distruction of local dialects or languages and traditions was enforced due to the centralization of power under the control of the elites

>>15645448
i base it on what i create myself

>>15645477
>If a separate and distinct people were to translocate to anywhere else on the planet then the new location could form the new homeland for them, but they remain the same people
really? you do realize that native americans where just asian immigrants originally

>>15645273
He was againist everything that wasn't him or Goethe, he was a retard on social issues

>>15645515
I too identify as a shitposter first and foremost

>>15645577
if that's the only thing you manage to create in your life then i'm sorry for you fren

>>15645515
Local identity was never destroyed. People still identify with their region within the nation. As for the language the people simply adapted to the need that the unification of Italians and French, and as a side effect regional language withered away. Nations are not a new phenomen, even ancient Greeks that strongy identified with their city state recognized other city states as being Greek

>>15645361
>pretending jim crow laws didnt exist

>>15645600
hmm but these nations didn't exist before the roman empire conquered the land and submitted the local tribes to a centralized authority that then broken down and gave birth to their fake and gay countries, their languages are literally the result of a latin dialect not being forced to assimilate

>>15645530
>you do realize that
Kennewick man aside, what is your point? That they became a different people by moving from one location to another?

>>15645627
Nations always existed. Nationalism is the extension of tribalism

>>15645631
yes unless you think that the pre-colombian america and asia had the same identity because they were part of the same genetic group just separated by land

>>15645577
this but unironically

>>15645670
They formed their own identity and therefore created their own nation

>>15645669
>Nations always existed
you really need to learn some history because the concept of a nation is a very recent idea, before the american and french revolution there were only multi-ethnic empires that forced the local tribes to assimilate to the dominant culture

>>15645675
neither of them had nations, they had kingdoms and empires and small tribes

>>15645699
Nation is a tribe with a shared culture, therefore nations always existed

>>15645713
the definition of a nation includes inhabiting and controlling a land, yet if you mean tribes then these for the most part were migratory and when they settled down on a land they tended to be assimilated by a multi-ethnic empire

>>15645203
The root of "nation" is "race." People are defining themselves based upon their biological predelictions, more or less, not their current form of government.

>>15645249
And here's your confession of being disingenuous.

So we can conclude that you're both wrong and disingenous.

>>15645203
Nation doesn't mean state. A nation is a collective identity people have that may be racial, geographic, religious, cultural, and so on. A nation can exist without a state (e.g. the kurdish) or a state can be comprised of multiple nations (e.g. Spain comprised of Basque, castilians, catalans, and galicians).

>>15645618
>being a depressed white liberal

>>15645781
are you quoting the right post?
why am i disingenous for not wanting to read a novel?
>The root of "nation" is "race."
not, the root is natio i.e. birth or place of origin
>People are defining themselves based upon their biological predelictions
Not exactly sure what you mean by that

>>15645878
You asked for books. When given a book to read, you resorted to saying that your question was "meant in philosophical terms." (a rhetorical question.)
You did not truly want to read a book, you simply wanted to have your opinion heard. This is why I say you are disingenous, because you do not put up a true front. You are a liar, and you hide behind silly rhetorical questions. Questions are easy to ask. Asnwers are harder to give.

Here is the etymology of the word "nation":
https://www.etymonline.com/word/nation

It clearly lists it as race.
This is the second time you lie. When will you give up your lies?

People with similar biologies behave similarly, and enjoy being around like minded people. Some people are coming to terms with this, and they call themselves nationalists.

>>15645203
Fuck Leviathan

>>15645861
but how did the national collective identity formed on a large scale?

Only shit myself three times today

>>15645958
This question is "only philosophical," right?

>>15645923
no, i was searching for a book that discusses nationalism or national identity form a philosophical point of view
I was talking about the word "natio" which doesn't include race, the word nacioun in old french may have included this connotation.
>People with similar biologies behave similarly
There are very few behaviours that are directly linked to biology.
>enjoy being around like minded people
Indeed, they are breed and branwashed since infancy to be obedient and to respect the norms of their time and place.

>>15646022
isn't the definition of philosophy the love of knowledge?
i'm not sure how it doesn't fit in your mind

>>15646035
If you loved knowledge, you'd read books.
You think you're pretty smart, huh?

>>15646027
I wonder if you buy your own lies.

>>15646027
It has been proven that tribalism is innate retard

>>15645958
It existed within small scale communities. With the advent of the first industrial revolution bringing on better forms of long distance communication and travel it was easier for a dominant culture to spread and conquer other cultures. This happened in several European countries. In France for instance the language spoken in Paris was declared to be the "French" language and it was forced on the people in the rest of the country. This also helped to funnel those people who lived as farmers into cities where they would work at the factories.

The cultural authority in small towns before the French nation existed were churches. Usually the only people who could even read or write in those towns were the priests so there was a strong dependence on them.

>>15645203
Nationalism is based though

>>15646065
tribalism is innate but tribal groups can be artificially created, the french are a mixture of gauls, romans and other tribes for instance

>>15646043
yes and i was asking for books the were not fiction on the subject in question
how hard is it to understand?

>>15646100
That means that you prefer people that are similar to you retard

>>15646084
i somewhat agree with your post but i think this happened even before the industrial revolution, just think of how rome assimilated local cultures or persia, it was indeed made easier though

>>15645618
>pretending they don't want them back.

>>15646108
Then you weren't looking for "any books."
How hard is that to understand?

>>15646121
yes and i'm saying that they are were homogenized into being similar by central authorities
they have made various social experiments where they subdivided groups of people by using random categories and people would start to have in-group and out-group bias

>>15646138
yes i should have clarified better in the Op lmao

>>15646158
Indeed.

>>15645781
Based retard. You owned that lib epic style.

>>15645203
check out imagined communites by benedict anderson

>>15645349
She wont fuck you bro

Ugh why cant we just be a global society of individuals

>>15645485
>>15646236
thanks i will check it out
>>15645333
nice trips fren

>>15646267
it's not that i want to change the sheep, i only care about not being a slave to society myself fren

>>15645203
Ernest Becker - The Denial of Death
Benedict Anderson - Imagined Communities

>>15646278
Look into the doctrine of fascism then

>>15646221
I can't tell whether this is an insult or a compliment.

>>15645203
What is your alternative to the nation?

>>15646321
the mongolian world wide empire

>>15645203
May I recomend you an excellent short essay on fascism by Umberto Eco?

https://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/eco_ur-fascism.pdf

It's just 9 pages long.

>>15646376
So no answer then?

>>15646387
well i read it, it wasn't particularly informative to be honest the most of the traits used to describe ur-fascism can be applied to some degree to any nation on this planet even including past and present communist regimes

>>15646452
yeah anon i'm unironically not a collectivist so i don't give a shit about changing society or creating a new order or what ever the fuck
i just find it very funny how humans get so easily mind fucked and controlled by others, even by the dead ;^)

>>15645203
The concepts of nation and state are entirely different. You find the situation ridiculous because you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.

>>15646710
>The concepts of nation and state are entirely different.
has there ever been a nation without a state?

Don't bother with imagined communities . Instead read azar gats Nations for a more nuanced view. Maybe add on David Reichs Who we are and how we got here for a better skeleton of human history and population dynamics.

Azar gats Nations for a more nuanced view. Dont bother with anderson.

>>15646318
Yeah dude. You ever hear of post irony? You aren't a 30 year old boomer, are you?

>>15646002
Hehehe
>>15645203
>imagine defining yourself

Imagine thinking anything schops said was wrong lol
Commie/leftist cuck cope, stick to reading pseuds like focault or whatever kike you favor you trash

>>15645203
>which state owns you
t. Amerishit who doesn't know that nationalism is about having a shared cultural heritage and identity

>>15648726
>nationalism
>shared cultural heritage
>identity
all social constructs with no basis in objective reality

>>15645618
B9

>>15648817
>social constructs
>no basis in objective reality
Retard alert.
>>15645515
>the distruction of local dialects or languages and traditions was enforced due to the centralization of power under the control of the elites
You would like Taleb's idea of localism.

>>15645567
He had some good things to say on the Jewish Question, and he also detested Islam.

>>15648726
>shared cultural heritage and identity stops at the border

>>15645203
How do you personally define yourself? You must associate with things or ideas. Maybe you chose to identify with those things - how are those that choose to identify with their nation any worse in that regard? maybe you didn't choose - then you are no better than the nationalists.

the state doesn't own you, capital owns you (and the state)

>>15645699
You are correct on a technical level: nations are recent inventions.

But 'nationalism' is really about ethnic attachment, which is ultimately kinship bias writ large. Ethnos is the concept of 'family' expanded to its largest possible meaning. Thus nationalism is generalized kinship affinity.

>>15645249
1984 is philosophical enough

>>15646702
you aren't human?

>>15648838
Social construct doesn't mean what you think it means you retard.

>>15645203
The Revolt of the masses. It's about 190 pages. The first 100 or so pages are about the revolt of the masses, the rest is dedicated to utterly destroying nationalism, as a symptom of the revolt.

>>15646121
based retard

>imagine identifying with your nations and peoples and their unifying histories and cultures and heritage that binds us all together and sets us apart from other such groupings
>as a true intellectual, i am defined by much more enlightened concepts like the latest marvel movie and a number of substance abuse problems i use to fill my hollow existence

>>15648817
and?

>>15645203
>>15645223
>>15650026
His Notes on Nationalism really does debunk nationalism though

>>15650549
his definition of Nationalism is extremely broad though, it includes the USSR, the US, and all sorts of political movements.

>>15645203
Tell me enlightened op, what are you defined by?

>>15645371
>>15645203
People take nationalism and ethnicity too far, and these people are always Americans larping as Europeans calling everyone a mutt, and having a psychotic fixation on making sure everyone sticks to their own culture. It's similar to sjws whining about appropriation but from genuine racists.

>>15647959
thought feds were supposed to receive training

>>15650631
>genuine racists
you have been led to believe that the worst thing you can be is someone who accepts the innate differences between ethnic groups because nothing in your life has ever gone wrong and you are easily manipulated

>>15650631
>these people are always Americans larping as Europeans calling everyone a mutt,
what a bizarre claim, just go look at their flags on /int/ or /pol/

>>15650658
I never said it was the worst thing, but it's a problem. Being disingenuous won't help your case, I've seen this rhetoric for over 10 years now

>>15645203
Nationalism is artificial, tribalism is natural

>>15650687
>I've seen this rhetoric for over 10 years now
and you still haven’t seen through it. hopeless

>>15650483
Go back to /tv/. We talk about real politics here, not your larping zoomer corporate consumerist imitation.

>>15650658
Differences between people shouldn't be used to justify genocide, you sick fuck.

>>15645203
No, it is not about the state that "owns" me, it's about the history of my people.

I am the anon that kicked the hornets nest by stating that people define their nation, and that the nation does not define the people. I do not care to argue the point with angry ideologues but I can recommend Nationalist Ideologies and the Production of National Cultures from the American Ethnological Society Monograph Series. Nighty night, faggots.

I'm not a nationalist for America that's for damn sure, even though I was born here.
>rapes ur kid
>immiserates you
>makes you hate urself
>gets you fired for literally nothing, not doing the fucking Walmart dance or some shit
The minute I get any windfall I'm getting out of this hell hole.

>>15651061
>He doesn't express his pride and loyalty to the Sovereign State of Walmart through traditional dance

>>15651075
I don't get why all the righties are so concerned about the future of America, if anything America falling means no more globohomo being forced on the rest of the world. Just an entire society of chinks, high-caste streetshitters, and jews making fake money off of niggers in a country built on cursed native american burial ground.

>>15648726
What is this cultural heritage? Language that was imposed on the population that lived inside the borders that were conquered to uniform in order to create a class of bureaucrats? The religion that was also imposed by the use of violence?
What else? Food?

>>15648838
>You would like Taleb's idea of localism.
I prefer being myself and not the slave of a collective.

>>15649976
i'm a human who happened to be born in a specific time and place that will not allow himself to be assimilated and become a cog in the machine.

>>15650483
>unifying histories and cultures and heritage that binds us all together
It "binds" you because an army conquered the land and the local population, imposed a language and a religion.

>>15645203
Genealogy of Fanaticism E.M. Cioran
https://aphelis.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/CIORAN_1949_Genealogy_of_fanaticism.pdf

I think sapiens covers this somewhat. The book isn't all about nationalism, but there's some very good chapters on how the thing that unites us is the creation of a collective story/narrative that we tell ourselves

>>15645203
>>imagine defining yourself on the basis of which state owns you
t. American. US is not even a nation.

>>15651096
So you associate with absolutely nothing? no hobbies, no interests, no ideas? How do you think your birth situation effects the outcome of your life?

>>15651274
>So you associate with absolutely nothing?
Why do you need an identity? To be classified by others? To be known to not be considered a threat to other memebers of the herd? To have a self image that forces you to conform to particular behavioural paterns?
I am what i am

>How do you think your birth situation effects the outcome of your life?
It has a massive impact on your life and identity, if you are weak.

>>15651094
>What is this cultural heritage? Language that was imposed on the population that lived inside the borders that were conquered to uniform in order to create a class of bureaucrats?
Materialists can't understand. Look up Volksgeist.

>>15646250
:c

>>15647959
Sarcasm isn't anything new.

>>15645203
a nation can live without their own state