/lit/ - Literature

why did you have a fall out with your tribe?

Did you flip a switch on saturday or something

>>15630636
Fanatic fascistic Zionists are tolerated if they have money. Bar Mitzvah parties are families flaunting wealth with the synagogues stamp of approval. Not to mention, Judaism has suffered from the same intellectual retardation that all of western society is facing in the 21st century. Most secular American Jews view their Judaism as merely a mild flavor on their whiteness, while the orthodox are dogmatic and all around awful.

I was head of youth Jewish education and the biggest issues I came up against were giving nuanced perspectives on Zionism and teaching the theological reasons Jews don’t accept Jesus as messiah, and in a “progressive” Jewish community, teaching our theology isn’t PC.

So now the family and I don’t talk much.

>>15630625
Have you read the whole Old Testament? In Hebrew? What’s it like? Do you have any exegetical recommendations?

>>15630707
Book recommendations I mean

>>15630690
lmao, so you get shunned for talking about the non-PC parts of Judaism? Why would they get offended when Jesus is mentioned? might as well convert to christianity.

Do Jews really believe Hitler and Christianity have anything in common?

>>15630625
do jews really eat children?

What do you think about Rabbinic exegesis of the Talmud? I'm particularly interested in the practice of taking a snippet of a sentence out of context and applying it to a totally new context, even if it's totally unwarranted by the original meaning. I'm sure there's a technical term for that but I don't remember it. The interesting thing is that you see this exact practice in the New Testament and Dead Sea Scrolls, so it obviously goes back a long way.

>>15630707
Seconding exegetical recommendations

>>15630755
not op but I know about the christian exegesis, but exegesis in the dead sea scrolls? can you give a source on that?

What is the most beautiful verse in the Talmud in your opinion?

>>15630707
>>15630717
I have! I think it's funny that /lit/ says all translation is bad in one breath and then pushes the bible in the same one. The old testament in Hebrew is a completely different experience to the one you get from reading in English. A lot of very popular christian verses are severe mistranslations that occurred at some point between the translation from hebrew to greek to latin to english, and english lacks the tools to capture what hebrew does. Independently, I also learned greek and its similar with the New Testament.

>>15630717
>>15630763

The best Commentaries will come from Rashi for the basics, and Nechama Leibowitz for a much more in depth and expansive commentary focused more on textual connections than pure understanding. The Prophets by Abraham Joshua Heschel is also great to get a better understanding of what exactly the Old Testament holds prophecy to be and its role in the theology.

>>15630721
Progressive Jewish institutions and its members are largely psychologically neoliberal whites. Talking about Jesus isn't offensive to them, and learning Christianity isn't taboo. Teaching why we don't accept Jesus is taboo because the leadership doesn't want to offend christians, who are more easily triggered than any SJW strawman

>>15630856
> the leadership doesn't want to offend christians
wtf, christians already know that jews dont accept Jesus as the messiah, it wont hurt to go into the reasons WHY, anyways, I've been wanting to learn biblical Hebrew, do I have to go to a Jewish School/University to do that? do you know any resources?

>>15630625
Some questions, not bait tho.
-Is it true that on average jewish are smarter because they study holy scriptures when they are young?
-Do and why jewish people hate christians?
-Any books about how jewish are so influential in the human history or some objective book about jews?
Every book about them seems super butt licking like "don't you dare criticize them" or super antisemitic. I'm interested in jewish as judaism believer not as sion citizen.
Thank you.

>>15630856
>A lot of very popular christian verses are severe mistranslations that occurred at some point
Can we get an example?

>>15630953
not him, but Isaiah 9:6 is a good example. the christians/KJV says
> For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

the original Hebrew is
>For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

you see who ever translated the christian version tried to make the messiah appear as the "mighty God", "everlasting father" etc.

>>15630788
For me the beauty of the Talmud is not any specific line but what you get out of studying it-- it changes the way you understand every aspect of life by providing new logical analysis systems which you begin to subconsciously use, the same way learning Greek logical systems changes how you perceive logic.
Read Pirkei Avot (sayings of the sages) for condensed Mishnaic wisdom on life and choose for yourself what you believe to be most beautiful.

>>15630910
See thats what you'd expect logically, but Evangelical Christianity and the Christian masses do not operate on that. Christianity is based off of Judaism, and for Jesus to be messiah, he needs to be the messiah according to Jewish understanding of the New Testament and the messiah. Hearing our (valid and correct) arguments can be triggering, even if its already accepted we don't believe.

>>15630932
1. No. Studying the holy scriptures doesn't make you smart, learning how to actively engage with ideas and challenge and change your own beliefs does. We are genetically smarter because for a good millenia every smart boy in Europe was whisked up by the Catholic Church to be sodomized and then made celibate as a priest, while in Judaism being smart is one of the most attractive things to women and men. After a while, smart kids arise.
2. No we don't, but personally I think it is idolatry and ridiculous. But no personal animosity-- as the tanach says, do not punish the son for the sins of the father.
3. We're not, we're just a good scapegoat. "Jewish influence" really only became a thing when intellect was semi-valued in the west, and its always trumped up.
Many books seem to be butt licking against criticism because they are. Jews were traumatized by the holocaust, and what I know to be intergenerational trauma others believe to be deliberate scheming. But Alan (((Dershowitz))) and his ilk are as reviled by us as they are by the people who make pic related charts.

Abraham Joshua Heschel's The Sabbath and God in Search of Man will be very good. About the role of Jews in history? Nothing comes to mind because the reality is much less flattering than what /pol/ would have you believe. Simon Schuster's Jewish Literacy was a good comprehensive resource for me when I taught Jewish subjects, so I'd recommend that

>>15630953
>>15630977
Psalms 22:16 "They have pierced my hands and feet" (KJV) is more along the lines of "like a lion, they have torn my arms and legs".

>>15630977 gave a good example.

The rest is largely in the Book of Isaiah, which Christianity heavily leans on as proof of Jesus being the messiah according to Judaism. Isaiah 7:14 is another good example.

It just doesn't make sense to us why 1.5 billion people believe he is the messiah according to our religion yet won't take our word that he is not the messiah according to our religion.

The New Testament also has examples of similar translations done with clear bias by translators who would benefit from distorting the words-- this is easiest seen throughout the book of revelations.

What are your thoughts on the Kabbalah and or Merkabah mysticism. I am agnostic but its the only part of Judaism I find fascinating other than some books of the OT.

>>15631217
interested in this also

>>15631163
>he is not the messiah according to our religion.

Any written text is open to interpretation, and famously, where there are two Jews there are three opinions. Indeed, the Talmud itself, if nothing else, shows the wide scope of interpretation that may apply to a given text.

>>15630625
hey op, what can you recommend for someone interested in Judaism as a religion?

i got jewish literacy by Joseph Telushkin and rereading stories i heard as a kid (i grew up baptist)

is there anything of value to be found for secular people interested in religion?

ive heard you dont have to believe in G-d literally if you arent orthodox or something.

>>15631163
It's entirely understandable, but still entirely insane just how storied and unreliable a textual history the Bible/Western sacred texts have.
What do you think of Spinoza?

>>15630690
as a fellow Jew,
>Fanatic fascistic Zionists are tolerated if they have money
completely accurate
>Bar Mitzvah parties are families flaunting wealth with the synagogues stamp of approval
Don't see the issue here. Most cultures have at least some version of this.
>teaching our theology isn’t PC.
Majority of Jews in 2020 don't care about the theology because it doesn't apply to their lives. PC can explain some of it, but the bigger reason is just fewer and fewer people care.

>>15631281
theres a difference between interpreting a text and using a faulty translations and out of context passages to try and push an already preconceived narrative. see>>15630977

>>15631291
>ive heard you dont have to believe in G-d literally if you arent orthodox or something.
Not OP but it's pretty common to find atheistic people in the Reformed movement of Judaism. Even in the Conservative movement it isn't unheard of.

>>15631102
>Pirkei Avot
Thanks will check it out

>>15631217
Tradition holds that Kabbalah should only be taught to men over 40 who are already well learned in Jewish Law and tradition. Maimonides says this is because learning Kabbalah without the necessary prior knowledge leads to misunderstanding. Just the chart you posted-- each of the words in those spheres is a hebrew word used often throughout the tanach, mishnah, talmud, and Jewish tradition. Knowledge of Jewish law is needed to precede kabbalah, and personally, I am against the popularization of it. I personally know and have learned from actual Kabbalists and the reality is very different from what will be accessible to most.

Jewish mysticism is much more related to the idea of The Divine Chariot in Isaiah than the sphirot, which are the most well known and popular.

>>15631281
There's a difference between clever analysis and blatant disregard for fact

>>15631291
I personally believe Christian societies produce atheists like Richard Dawkins and reddit atheists because they are raised in a society whose main religion is theologically inconsistent. Judaism is not just a matter of blind faith, but an all encompassing system of understanding and logic that informs the world. "Belief in God" is very different in Judaism, as the Jewish god is completely transcendental and beyond human comprehension while the trinity exists to minimize God into accessible chunks with an accessible human face. I know orthodox atheists-- what matters in Judaism is not your words but your practice. Your adherence to Jewish law determines your level of religiosity, not your personal faith. There's lots for secular people, myself being one of them. I don't keep jewish law intensely, I just find it super interesting.

>>15631296
Spinoza was able to take the conception of God given by Maimonides's Mishneh Torah and apply a new method of thought to it, and to me it was a very good enhancement of describing how the Jewish conception of God varies so greatly from the Christian. I believe it is crucial to read him in context and not just read The Ethics, but also his works on Judaism, which (i could be mistaken) are the majority of his writings.

>>15631297
>Don't see the issue here. Most cultures have at least some version of this.
Let me know when Nicki Minaj performs at a quincenara. The 3rd richest family I know had cirque de soleil at their daughter's bat mitzvah. My bar mitzvah party was a saturday afternoon bagels lox and whitefish luncheon followed by a small barbeque. Decadence is a virus of the capitalist west and we are infected
>fewer and fewer people care
Yea, because fewer and fewer people have a personal relationship to the text because leadership is pathetic.
>>15631324
yeah, and nobody in those communities gives a shit what their peers believe either way. Which is better than the dogmatic faith demanded by some other religions

>>15631440
anytime m8. If you find a quote you like, take note of who said it. Each rabbi is a distinct character and they likely have other teachings in a similar vein, and often the stories told about them inform their rulings and sayings. The talmud is much more /lit/erary than this board makes it out to be

>>15631469
recommended reading for secular people interested in Judaism? preferably one that dispels misconceptions from christian readings of the old testament?

If you weren't Jewish would you find Christianity or Islam more convincing?

>>15631469

I have only read Scholem on the Kabballah and he makes no distinction between the Kabballah of the Zohar and Merkabah mysticism. He also wrote about Hermeticism and the Kabballah as informing a unified evolving western tradition, so while I agree with you its non sensical to talk about it apart from the Torah, it is independent in some respects developmentally from the mainstream jewish tradition that never really embraced it. The Kabbalah seems to me to belong to that tradition now more than orthodox Judaism, because Judaism as pertaining to just Jews lends to the problem of a "national religion" and takes away from the overall theological anxieties at large. So I see your problem with popularizing the Kabbalah as the prime problem Judaism has with other religions, as with Christianity, which at prime theological level is a religion of ethics, not just of revelation. I have noticed that Jews have a hard time understanding how can the ethics/theology work if does not tie directly to them, and this is the movement from Judaism to Christianity, the messiah came and that event is the whole of theology.

>>15631537
I'm not the guy you are responding to, but do you have any guidance on any particular copy of Pirkei Avot? Looking at Amazon, it feels as if there are many different books differing wildly in length all claiming to be some form of Pirkei Avot.

Also, I heard that most Jews were historically barred from reading Ezekiel until they were deemed old enough, and even then discussions about Ezekiel had to happen in sideways/an obtuse manner. How true was this? Any interesting commentary on this practice or related idiosyncrasies in Judaism that are fun to think about?

>>15630625
How does it feel when you know that your parents let old rabbi to mutilate and suck the flesh of your genitals when you were baby?

>>15631585
Islam. It's theologically consistent and closer to my understanding of what the core of an Abrahamic religion is (covenant in flesh, no pork, no idolatry to such an extreme no images are allowed in sanctuaries and images of main prophet are discouraged so nobody gets it mixed up and prays to them).

>>15631602
>I have only read Scholem on the Kabballah and he makes no distinction between the Kabballah of the Zohar and Merkabah mysticism.

I'd recommend Aryeh Kaplan to read. His workings on Kabbalah have been validated as semi-trustworthy by real kabbalists, and he even died at 48 like a true Tzaddik.

>>15631609
I'd recommend Koren Publishing versions and commentaries. Never buy ANYTHING artscroll, they want to brainwash you, and the Shmuley Yanklowitz Social Justice Version is a crude mockery of a once proud leftist Jewish tradition.

It's all available online at sefaria, direct link is https://www.sefaria.org/Pirkei_Avot.1
Its there along with pretty much every commentary ever done about it. There's also a bunch of different translations available. That website allows anybody to directly learn pretty much any Jewish text ever written as long as they have an internet connection, highly highly recommend. For everyone asking books on Jewish texts, this is the place. Source Sheets on Sefaria are also great for specific topics, pretty much every Jewish educator uses it.

>>15631704
how does it feel being deemed so worthless by your society that you need to hate Jews to continue ignoring your seemingly endless failings as an individual?

None of that happened because neither my parents or my old rabbi are fucking insane. It happens only in Williamsburg cults, who we hate more than you.

But yea, my cock looks great and shikses love it due to my aesthetically attractive circumcision scar, thanks for asking bro

what sect did you belong to? i don’t hear about progressive/reform communities turning out bochurim v. often. did you do aish or chabad or something like that? (not implying you got mekareved and didn’t make your own decision—just wondering how you went from prog to bochur)

>>15631581
Abraham Joshua Heschel: The Sabbath, God in Search of Man
Rav Soloveitchik: Lonely Man of Faith
Maimonides: A Guide for the Perplexed. It is 35% pleb filter but will pay off if you can slog through it. Maimonides is the ultimate Judaism redpill

>>15631609
I've never heard of not teaching Ezekiel, but I have heard that about Isaiah 53. It's not that it's not taught, its just not part of the Haftorah Cycle (weekly public reading), along with the vast majority of the Prophets and The Writings. Isaiah 53 and Ezekiel are not taught at a young age because Messianism isn't nearly as important in judaism as in Christianity, and it's generally viewed to be on a level inaccessible to children. Also, Ezekiel is just a bummer (ref. Book of Lamentations)

What mental gymnastics do you use to fit being pro-life to blowing up 12 year old Palestinians?

>>15631585
He will obviously say Islam because he is a rabbinical Jew, completely different from the original Jews of the Holy Land. Jesus came from the spirit of the Essenes and Enochites, along with John the Baptist. This guy comes from Pharisees and rabbis doing this: >>15630755

Notice how he never replied to this post. This is the legacy of modern European "Jews." They are barely Jews at all. He thinks he is diagnosing the cancer at the heart of Jewry by denouncing decadence, but his degenerate litigious sect killed what was once a living, inspired form of Judaism with its casuistry. OP's religion is casuistry. He even admits he's secular.

Read Werner Sombart's The Jews and Modern Capitalism. Ask yourself, are the midrashic "Jews" really Jews? Legalism and ritual for ritual's sake are perennial tendencies of religions, and they can take over whole faiths if allowed. Jews like OP are tendrils of one big cybernetic calculator that started growing when European courts used them as administrative assistants.

Is there a Jewish metaphysics of language? Given how the written word is prized in Jewish culture, I am curious if language is considered holy in and of itself, or at least capable of holiness through careful use. What is the Talmudic response to the mystical tradition which claims language is inherently flawed and that a unity with God is only possible in an ineffable sphere?

How much study of Hebrew would it take to understand the Old Testament better than through an English translation? Is it feasible/possible for a goy to learn outside of access to Jewish institutions?

>>15630625
Do you support the Jewish tradition of sucking blood from the mutilated penises of infants?

>>15630625
What do you think about freudian psychoanalysis?

>>15630625
Do you interpret book 1 of Genesis as describing God as creating the world out of a formless, eternal matter or ex nihilo?

>>15631955
>he is a rabbinical Jew, completely different from the original Jews of the Holy Land. Jesus came from the spirit of the Essenes and Enochites, along with John the Baptist. This guy comes from Pharisees
The Pharisees were in ancient Judea, retard. Pharisaic Judaism was the only one able to survive without the temple as the central location for Jewish activity, but it goes back just as far as the other forms. You know so little it's comedic. I'm glad to see David Icke is still able to make a living in these trying times due to the support of idiots like you.
>>15630755
This Talmudic method is generally used in the logic of Kal V'chomer, and is applicable in legal arguments pertaining to halacha. Often, its used to prove a small point and is not a strong proof. Its not applicable to proofs for Jesus, especially considering the New Testament can't be used as a source for proof.
>>15631955
You give us too much credit. Thanks though, sorry your life sucks and I'm glad we can make it a little bit easier by letting you blame us.
>>15631903
I was raised Conservative, align closest to that, but I can't stand the institutions. Aish and Chabad are basically Evangelical Jews, but only one of the two are idol worshipers. Conservative gives the space for bochur level knowledge while still living a "secular" life in the sense that I also live in the modern world.

>>15631956
>Is there a Jewish metaphysics of language?
Yes. there's no individual source i can name off the top of my head besides Maimonides's A Guide for the Perplexed and Mishneh Torah's Foundations of the Torah, and I remember some Spinoza on the topic. It builds on a lot of other concepts so those two are much better teachers of it than I am.

>How much study of Hebrew would it take to understand the Old Testament better than through an English translation?
It's not easy, especially if you're a monolingual native english speaker. However
If you can understand the basics of hebrew grammar and how possessive forms work, biblical hebrew will be much easier, as the vocabulary isn't too complex. Probably 1 year with the language and you'll be ready to start taking on biblical texts
>Is it feasible/possible for a goy to learn outside of access to Jewish institutions?
The talmud says a goy who learns Torah (which includes Mishnah and Talmud) is as holy as the high priest on Yom Kippur. Sefaria.org is your best bet for primary texts but is filled with other theological works. >>15631908 is a good reference for modern works that can help you connect the pieces.


>>15632076
>>15632054
Equally criminal and fucked up

>>15632153
Both, and neither. According to Judaism the act of divine creation transcends human understandings of creation, though we can understand different aspects and qualities of it, the whole cannot be grasped by our minds. Genesis doesn't serve to tell us exactly what happened, that's why there are two creation stories. We can't know, and we're not supposed to.

>>15632237
I'm a theology student who is going to begin studying Biblical Hebrew in the fall. I'm trying to get ahead in my studies this summer because I know it's going to be an uphill battle for me, since I've never studied a non-romantic language. Do you have any recommended resources or tips? What's the biggest barrier in your opinion for English speakers trying to learn the language?

Also, what's your favorite book of the Tanakh?

>>15630856
What are the theological reasons for you not considering Jesus the Messiah?

>>15632237
Thanks for the answers and the informative thread. Your answer on learning Hebrew is more encouraging than I expected. More questions if you're still around:

Given your disapproval of various sects you've mentioned, do you believe Judaism can be reformed? Do you have personal beliefs about what an ideal sect might look like?

What is it about Judaism that you find superior to other religions? You mentioned that you thought Islam was superior to Christianity because of a more coherent theology, so would you convert to a new religion if you found it to have the most logically consistent theology?

>>15631163
Christians use Septuagint, which is a 300-150 BC translation of older now gone Hebrew texts.

Masoretic is a medieval Rabbinic Judaism synthetic text.

My point is if you actually bother and check the LXX, it matches 95% of NT quotes ad verbatim and Christian readings.

How do you understand conspiracy theories? What causes them? Why so many people think jews are in cotrol of everything?

>>15632465
not OP but as far as im aware..
Christians were forbidden to practice usury and someone had to do the job, explains the banker connotations

also jewish culture is huge on questioning, as someone said above, jewish culture and reasoning makes jewish kids smart

combine that with the holocaust and lots of jews were able to prove themselves and find renewed pride by lifting themselves out of the dregs into achievements in the sciences and such

>>15630625
>>15630690
Keep the stuff to yourself. Make good with your family. Also some amount of nationalism (Israel) probably is reasonable for safety, because the globalist and open borders jews just won't stop working on making life so hard for everybody the only choice will be aliyah.

>>15632465
Have you ever looked at the theories? It's obvious why people would be radicalized.

>>15632539
/pol/ doesn't just repeat blood libel from the 18th century. They have a variety of grievances. (And are obsessed with the Frankfurt school)

>>15630625
So, Christians are considered pagans in the Talmud? Are Gentiles who oppose Jewish abuse and parasitism automatically considered "Amalek"? And what about the Gentiles and the world in the Messianic Age (according to the Talmud)?

>>15632570
You really call some random charts and infographs found mostly on 4chan theories?

>>15631767
Oh my realy struck that nerve on you... I guess high neuroticism link with jews is true after all.

>>15632630
What should you call them? Are you trying to say they don't meet the standard of tested scientific hypothesis? Because obviously, but that's a dumb way to talk.

>>15632346
Since you've never studied a non-romantic language, learning the characters will be one of the hardest parts for you. I learned basic reading in Hebrew school, so I can't really point to a specific resource I've heard of working specifically for that. I also don't trust the internet, especially for hebrew, so invest in a book. Jews are generally a nice people-- email a local rabbi or campus jewish organization explaining your situation and you'll probably get something helpful.
Personally biblical hebrew is most confusing and then most powerful due to possessive forms. Elohim, Elohecha, Eloheinu, Elochai, all have distinct purposes and meanings due to possesive. Once you get that a lot of the tanach opens up.

Favorite book from each
T: Leviticus. The fun story is first two, but Leviticus shows how it is applied to life/ acts as a pleb filter
N:Amos
K:Ecclesiastes

>>15632389
Ok to name a few consicely, nowhere is it mentioned messiah is son of god, he does not meet the prophecies of Isaiah, vaguely meeting the qualifications of a few prophecies (pierced by steel) is not sufficient to be the messiah, Trinity is totally pagan (its in the ten commandments), revisionist readings of old testament and prophecies and liberal mistranslation, performing miracles is not proof of divinity being the messiah or even being correct (oven of akhnai), swords into plowshares didn't happen, yadda yadda. It goes on, but besides that, Christianity after the Council of Jerusalem is a scam to convert and control pagans.

>>15632655
I remember double checking infographs on russian revolutionaries being mostly jews, and it was just flat out wrong, also I study philosophy and have read most of the frankfurters, saying that they tried to subvert Western values or some shit is just retarded and in most cases the opposite is true. I'd say just actually check sources of them, most of them are just wrong, quotes are mostly taken out of contexts and grandiose conclusions are made out of simple facts.

I probably don't trust you out of instinct, but, where is the 100% Jew approved English translation of the Talmud?

>>15632408
>do you believe Judaism can be reformed? Do you have personal beliefs about what an ideal sect might look like?

This is just personal belief, so take it with however much salt you think is necessary.
In the current sects, no. Reform Judaism is basically a front for the Democratic Party, Orthodox Jews supported Trump in higher percentages than evangelicals, and Conservative Judaism, once the largest sect and the only major source of American Jewish intellectuals, cucked itself into retardation i with bad leadership in the 20th century.

But, as Jews do, new movements will form in good time. The world is collapsing right now (not our fault as >>15632570
retarded chart would have you believe, but because of Capitalism, Democracy, and Modernity all combined) and new ideas will evolve. It's what I write about, and its a nice niche to live in as a writer because there's not many others in it right now.

have a >>15632408
>Thanks for the answers and the informative thread.

Being a Jew on 4chan, between lurking /pol/ and here, is a weird experience. Judaism has a serious intellectual practice to it and its strange how little respect /lit/ gives to the culture that built itself off of books, learning, and extensive literary analysis. Happy to do it, I can do more postings about Judaism since it seems much better received than I expected

>Your answer on learning Hebrew is more encouraging than I expected.
Kafka and Einstein are two names I can think of who learned hebrew without ever really speaking it. It's not impossible, it just takes time, effort, discipline, and dedication. And it pays off if you can do all those things, like learning anything else for the sake of learning. Western Education is totally fucked, and probably the reason I was drawn to Jewish learning from a young age was because I wasn't graded on it (and was very good). Its doable, no doubt there.
>>15632408
>What is it about Judaism that you find superior to other religions? You mentioned that you thought Islam was superior to Christianity because of a more coherent theology, so would you convert to a new religion if you found it to have the most logically consistent theology?

I was born into it, its the community I know, and it meets my needs as an individual. For me, it works best, so it superior for me. I find it more interesting and superior because it is the one that makes the most sense to me. I don't think I'd convert if aliens came down and told us they were gods. I'm lucky to have been born in a community that encouraged my intellectual growth from a young age, and it gives me a way to foster personal growth throughout my life, and I think it will be good for my kids. So I'll stick with it.

What are some good books on jewish history? Any period is well received, but from 1 AD to 1800 or so is what I'm particularly interested in

>>15632702
>>15632798
Yeah you think most people with pitchforks are bothering to check the source? You see part of it is wrong and discount all of it. Others see part of it is true and believe it all. And do you know what happens to economically dominant minorities in countries with poor rule of law, like say the US seems to be edging toward? They get genocided. I like where I live. I don't think I'd like to have to leave it by hiding in the trunk of a car.

>>15630690
>>15631469
Hmm, it seems you have connections to powerful individuals. Do you have any connections to literary agents? Is it okay if you give me a referral at sraoshaincarnate@gmail.com ? Thanks.

>>15630856
>from hebrew to greek to latin to english,

But the Septuagint is in Greek right? I mean, do you have all the books that Catholics do in HEBREW? just curious.

>>15632465
The world we live in is scary and theres a lot of shit going on that is generally known to be bad. Often, these problems are caused by complex systems composed of hundreds of independent factors combined to create unexpected effects. Blaming the jews puts a name to the things we hate in people and hate in our society. When people see greed, deceit, and lies in their society, its easier to blame corrupt mass media or pornography addiction on the Jews than the proliferation of mass capitalism combined with technology designed to addict you. Like, those things are bad. People want to pin it on something, and since a few Jews can be found in whatever field of evil you want, you can blame the whole thing on Jews. It makes life easier.

>>15632702
>>15632630
>>15632570

Posts kinda show the absurdity of it. I'll sometimes see "quotes from the talmud" that purport to inform people of why the Jews are so evil, but most of the Jews they talk about don't give two shits about the talmud, never have, and never will. Besides, those talmud quotes aren't from the talmud 50% of the time and the others are so out of context its funny.

Sanhedrin 59a is a good example. Out of context, it says a non-jew who learns torah should be killed. In context, it is followed by a refutation and disproval of that point with a lengthy discussion about the handling of violent or supremacist interpretations.
>>15632605
Yes and no. Faithful christians are idolators, but they're not pagans like romans.

Amalek is dead. It is a literary device. We all know this.
>what about the Gentiles and the world in the Messianic Age (according to the Talmud)?

If you're referring to (paraphrase) "every Jew in the world to come has 1000 gentile slaves", that's from a medieval rabbi who I had never heard of and nobody cares about. The talmud says in the world to come Gentiles will be happier than Jews as far as I last heard

>>15632634
Better to be neurotic than retarded

>>15632751
Doesn't exist, english and talmud don't mix, anyone who has seriously learned talmud knows that. However, since you won't learn aramaic, Sefaria.org has the entire thing online, that's the best you'll get.

>>15632887
Just what exactly do you think the septuagant is?
>>15632878
Send your manuscript to Zionist Headquarters at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and if the FBI doesn't raid you we'll publish it

>>15633002
What do you think of pizzagate and satanism in the elites?

Why is it that most anti-white, anti-european, anti-tradition and cultural marxist agitators, NGOs, political donors, etc, are jewish?

>>15633002
You think misquotes of the Talmud are what makes people angry at Jews? Not outsized economic success and political control, especially when from nepotism and corruption?

>>15633354
I mean if most people are ready to believe pizzagate, we are far past the turning point. Promotion of multiculturalism is a response to the holocaust and centuries of pogroms. It's the (naive) hope that a mashup of heritageless atomized individuals will put an end to all that. (rather than creating a mob driven to violence towards whatever happens to catch their attention.)

what do you think about source criticism and mosaic authorship?

>>15631102
>triggered evangelicals

i was raised as a evangelical christian, this is absolut accurate
preacher in my youth group talked about "messianic miracles" defined by jews (and that Jesus fulfilled this definition)
i confronted him that i couldn´t find a Jewish source for those. I even quoted Maimonides (miracles are no necessary feature of the Messiah)
Obviously he had no source as well and pulled this out of his ass

Got me almost excommunicated

fucking fantastic AMA anon. Jewish intellectualism never ceases to amaze me

>>15633669
How does it make you feel that it seems that multiculturalism seems to have backfired on the Jews in that many (secular Jews from what little I've seen) are also being assimilated/corrupted?

On a tangent, do you have any opinion whatsoever on Isidore Epstein? It's okay if you don't, I'm just wondering since I'm currently reading his layman accessible overview of Judaism.

>>15632798
did you learn koine greek at the Yeshiva as well?
and could you say how well the ancient Hebrew translates to German?

>>15630625
le Isaiah 53 face

>>15632237
yeah, i’m not fond of the institutions either—i grew up in a modox/chabadnik adjacent community and i have a special hatred for kiruv (aish is nuts and so is chabad but thankfully yechi/meshichist types are in the minority). i consider myself fairly secular now.

>>15630625
What do you think about George Steiner's "The Portage to San Cristobal of A.H."?

>>15630625
>AMA for 100% honest responses
>says he's a Jew
>everyone in this thread just believes him

how do I get a job in psyop cause it seems easy as hell?

>>15630625
Why do you guys almost always act and talk like you have a stick up your asses both online and offline? Do you hate fun? Do you even enjoy life? Is it different when you're among yourselves?

>>15634042
(I'm not OP, if you maybe thought I was?) I appreciate true believers. Hypocrisy bothers me. But if people are going to adopt a philosophy that is bad for them, you can't be surprised if they get hurt. All liberals are a dying breed. I'm a traditionalist and nationalist. People do harm to their children by abandoning their ancestors. Israel should quit screwing around and push the Palestinians out. Make it clear they are never getting back in. It's simply necessary for any kind of reasonable security and a continued Jewish state.

Any good recs for getting into Kabbalah studies?
And did you read any Walter Benjamin? Or was it mostly just theological stuff.

>>15634615
>Kabbalah studies

Can't go wrong with either Aryeh Kaplan or the granddaddy of the field itself, Gershom Scholem.

>>15630625
Are there apocryphal, spurious, and deuterocanonical texts in the texts of Tosefta, Talmud, etc.?

>>15630625
Have you ever read From Yahweh to Zion by Laurent Guyenot? He's an evil nasty epic kkk nazi french guy who did some devastating exegesis of the Torah, as far as I can tell. You might be interested in it. Basically it's an explanation of how jewish identity today is fundamentally dependent on the Torah and is the mosaic and abrahamic convenants are inseparable to jews today, secular or otherwise. There's more to the book than that but you might be interested in a gentile's point of view on the subject of jewish identity. The author cites almost exclusively from translation of the torah and from jewish commentators on the torah.

Thoughts on Wittgenstein?

>>15630625
Opinion on Essenes, Nazarenes, and Ebionites? Do you think these "heresies" are closer to what Jesus REALLY preached?

>>15632634
baka... such a faggot

>>15630625
learn any good jewish jokes while you were there?

behind the Jewish intellectualism his hatred of Christianity is transparent

>>15630856
You should have gone to a yeshiva in Israel. We rotten tomato Jesus all the time.

Good thread, don't listen to the haters (even though some of them are right).

>>15631469
Based. I always wanted to read about the Kabbalah with that book of Scholem.

>>15632237
>Psychoanalysis is criminal and fucked up
Why?

>>15635425
What's the warmest city with penguins in it?

>>15635453
nothin' wrong with hating Christianity though, in fact I'd be a little concerned about someone who didn't

>>15635637
Jerusalem

>>15630856
>Progressive Jewish institutions and its members are largely psychologically neoliberal whites
Oh come on dude lmao

>>15630625
I want to convert out of pure love of Judaism, should I go Orthodox or Karaite?

>>15635743
We like to say Eilat but any warm city with hasidics in it for the bill

>>15631469
>blah blah mysticism, \
>Jewish god is completely transcendental and beyond human comprehension
LOL that just sounds like Islam. If G-d is transcendental and "beyond comprehension", we should say nothing about GOD then.

>>15630625
1) Is it true that Jews are greedier than most?
2) How common is Zionism, in general?
3) Do you have connections, or know someone who has connections, to particularly rich/influential Jews in the West?
4) What do you think of the current American political climate, i.e BLM, riots, immigration, etc?

>>15635819
>Judaism sounds like Islam
Or rather
>Islam sounds like Judaism
Use ur grey cells.

>>15635826
Doesn't matter, it's all dogmatic gobbledegook. Abrahamic religion is cancer.

>>15635832
Jesus starts with j. Jews start with j. Coincidence? I T H I N K N O T

Gonna go through the questions one by one

>>15633708
>what do you think about source criticism and mosaic authorship?
This one is hard. One of Maimonides's Thirteen Principles of Faith is that the torah is divine, but I think source criticism raises points that can't be ignored. I still go back and forth on it and am working towards an answer that I find satisfying, but I think source criticism is most clear and helpful when applied to later works, mainly those previously attributed to Solomon (Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs) which, with source criticism, gives us a more comprehensive picture of the writings.

>>15634042
>How does it make you feel that it seems that multiculturalism seems to have backfired on the Jews in that many (secular Jews from what little I've seen) are also being assimilated/corrupted?
Do you think we all met up a few decades ago and decided to push multi-culturalism? Multiculturalism is the natural outcome of a secular government over a land where almost none of the population has any historical connection to the land.
>>15633669
>mashup of heritageless atomized individuals
This sounds more like the outcome of consumerist capitalism than the jews but as I said before, i understand that its hard to understand that the systems you love are fucking you. So whatever you want to believe, go ahead.
>>15634042
>do you have any opinion whatsoever on Isidore Epstein
Haven't read him much, his translation of the Talmud I've skimmed and its much more prosaic than the actual text, but that's what english demands. Haven't read him besides that
>>15634192
>did you learn koine greek at the Yeshiva as well?
No, but I learn Ancient Greek on my own time mainly to read ancient greek works in original language and the new testament. Greek helps inform hebrew a lot, and its very clear through any reading of Greek Philosophy translations that it is a translation. Its worth the time if you have it
>and could you say how well the ancient Hebrew translates to German?
I don't know German but start next semester at Uni. Probably about as well as it translates to English. If you take the time to learn Hebrew, that combined with your German will give you Yiddish automatically. 3 languages for the price of 2

>>15634343
>le Isaiah 53 face
ref. >>15633002

>>15634457
>how do I get a job in psyop cause it seems easy as hell?
I didn't get a job in psyop, I was born into it, bred by it. The psyop raised me

>>15634470
>Why do you guys almost always act and talk like you have a stick up your asses both online and offline? Do you hate fun? Do you even enjoy life? Is it different when you're among yourselves?

Pic related, maybe you think we have a stick up our asses because you're actively trying to shove one up there

>>15634950
Yes, they're called Baraitot. They're viewed as secondary teachings, but still sourcable as proof for an argument.

Brainlet questions here:

- Why did God stop sending prophets to the Jews

-Given that they cannot convert should Goys who acknowledge the truth of judaism do? Should they attend synagogues?

-Why wont Israel rebuild the third temple?

>>15631955
Otto Weininger was absolutely right when he classified the Jewish character as being fundamentally atheist. Ironic that he accuses Christians of the same thing now. The eternal jew strikes again. Call him a jew and see how he shrinks etc etc.

>>15634436
>What do you think about George Steiner's "The Portage to San Cristobal of A.H."?

I can tell most people who mention George Steiner on 4chan are pseuds who have never read him because generally I see him brought up only in the context of claiming he's based for criticizing Jews. All of his criticisms of Jews are based on them buying into Enlightenment Western Philosophies like Nationalism, Ethnonationalism, and Identity Politics. Steiner makes it clear that he views Nazism to be the ultimate failure of the Enlightenment, and his critiques are largely based around how the world continued to go back to business as usual when he sees that the ideological underpinnings of the west have failed.

I liked The Portage a lot, and its deliberate that A.H. is never named. The two parts that stuck with me most were A.H.'s ramble and the intercom transmissions to the soldiers-- Steiner knew his Jewish Linguistic Metaphysics.
His writing is insanely dense to the point is clouds his ideas, but other recommended reading from him
-In Bluebeard's Castle
-Nostalgia for the Absolute (should be read by anyone who believes in Nationalism)
-The Poetry of Thought

>>15634615
Aryeh Kaplan, but Kabbalah learned outside the context of Jewish theology will be misunderstood and misrepresented. It's cool stuff but takes time and prior knowledge

>>15634363
A good religion can provide for secular members of its society as well as the religious. Kiruv seeks to make people religious, good Jewish education educates about Judaism. I hope some of the stuff I named here can guide you in the right direction

>>15634952
I haven't and he seems like brainlet tier anti-semitism. He's written a lot of books about us, rent free in his head considering its all made up
>jewish identity today is fundamentally dependent on the Torah and is the mosaic and abrahamic convenants are inseparable to jews today
Yes, and? If you're gonna criticize Judaism at least try using the blended slop inside your skull that was once your brain

>>15634974
>Opinion on Essenes, Nazarenes, and Ebionites? Do you think these "heresies" are closer to what Jesus REALLY preached?

I really like the Essenes, the Nazarenes are essentially Jewish monks, not familiar with the last one. As a teacher, I really like Jesus. Those ideologies weren't heresies, they were different ideologies, and Jesus pulled a lot from them, especially the essenes. The fiction I'm writing now has modern Essene Revivalism in it, I can post more if there's interest.

>>15635425
The best holocaust jokes I've ever heard were made on Holocaust Remembrance Day by my israeli coworkers. Sphardim and Mizrachim have no emotional connection to the holocaust but they don't deny it, so the jokes are very good

>>15634961
Honestly haven't read him, what do you recommend?

>>15635526
I did, went to one in the mountains near Afula if that means anything to you.

>>15636545
Bruh, why do you think psychoanalysis is evil? I'm curious.

>>15630625
>jew
>hates christians

nothing unusual here, we are on to you.

Far and away the most interesting thread on /lit/ in a long time. Thanks for posting, OP. I really appreciate your honesty and openness in this thread. As a sand nigger with a deep respect for the Jewish tradition(s) NS disgusted by both anti-semitism and Zionism of all stripes, I find that a thread like this shows that people of a certain level of inquisitiveness and literacy, no matter their background, can speak without any pathetic enmity between them. It almost prefigures a kind of utopia. Anyway, I hope Iranians and Jews can regain the closeness sketched out in Isaiah's prophecies and in the actuality of Cyrus' reign. God willing.

Far and away the most interesting thread on /lit/ in a long time. Thanks for posting, OP. I really appreciate your honesty and openness with everyone's questions. As a "sand nigger" with a profound respect for Jewish tradition(s) and disgusted by both anti-semitism and Zionism of all stripes, I find that that threads like this demonstrate that people of a certain level of inquisitiveness and literacy, no matter their background, can speak without any pathetic enmity between them. It almost prefigures a kind of utopia. Anyway, in that vein, I hope Iranians and Jews can regain the conviviality and friendship sketched out in Isaiah's prophecies and in the actuality of Cyrus' reign. God willing.

>>15636545
Been thinking about going into jeshiva. Not sure it´s for good reasons though.
Whats your thoughts on Jubilees?

It can be difficult when reading what some of the most important rabbis and Jewish religious leaders (Abraham Kook, Chaim Vital, Menachem Schneerson, Maimonides, Shneur Zalman, Ovadia Yosef etc. (and not from retarded /pol/-charts either)) have said about non-Jews, how their souls are inferior etc., to not foster a certain degree of anti-Semitism. Is it all taken out of context or what kind of explanation (other than that they, in fact, do believe they're superior) can there be? Not baiting, genuinely interested.

What are reasons to be Jewish? Can one convert to Judaism? Do you just believe because it’s your heritage?

>>15630625
OP I hope you are still here.
Can you explain that stuff in the Mishnah that forbids moving an object from a private space to a public space during the sabbath?
The way I read it, it would make taking anything out of your home on sabbath forbidden. But that does not make any sense to me.

>>15636545
Ah, the classic jew. No arguments, only insults. Well, thanks for confirming our biases!

>>15635602
>>15636565
>Hurr durr everyone wants to fuck their mom because a 5 year old had a dream where he sat on a giraffe and ate a ball of paper

Therapy and psychoanalysis can be really good, and if it works for you then it works. But the widespread proliferation of therapy means a lot of therapists are fucking idiots, and a bad therapist can do much more damage than no therapy at all. I'm not well read enough on the matter to address it in any scope further than that but personally it kinda seems like he took what is at the core a good idea (parents and how you are raised affects the person you grow up to be) and with a ton of cocaine took it to a different planet.

>>15635764
Pretty sure real Karaites don't exist anymore, and a conversion to them wouldn't be legitimate. Conservative or Modern Orthodox will probably be your best bet.

>>15635819
retard example 1

>>15635823
1. No, there are many more christians who are far more greedy and far more destructive. There are greedy and destructive Jews (neocons), but it is easier to blame the Jews and pretend you have no part in it than blame it on your own culture and reflect on what cultural values might have allowed something like the Iraq War to happen.
2. Very. I'm post-zionist, which means I believe Zionism is a dead ideology because the state has been established and isn't going anywhere. We need to address the problems facing us in a realistic way. Zionism is a spectrum but support for the existence of Israel among Jews is above 90%.
3. The wealthiest people I know is a family on the Forbes 500 list, I know the guy who wrote that shitty dreamworks movie Over The Hedge, and my dad was in the same fraternity as Jerry Seinfeld though they haven't talked since the 80s. Sarah Silverman's sister and I have met a few times. Rich and influential jews keep to themselves and don't help poor jews, just as rich and influential goyim don't help poor goyim. Class transcends religion
4. US is on the brink of collapse and it is fucking terrifying. Democracy is failing for all the reasons outlined by Plato, and I don't know why MAGA people thought that it is possible to remain the top country in the world while being isolationist. I, for one, do not welcome our new Chinese overlords, though they like us.

Yo OP, I once read somewhere that Judaism "worships the word". Care to elaborate on what that entails?

>>15636898
If not democracy than what? Real question, I wouldn’t think communism falls in line with religion because of the idea of dissolving any hierarchy, and monarchy hardly seems a good solution because of the problems with unchecked power especially with the modern day ways somebody can destroy a country

>>15636898
How do jewish theologians plan to integrate the holocaust into their religious history? The holocaust was a pretty severe bout of expulsion and destruction of jews, but in the end they were given back Israel. Seems like a story on a similar scale to other biblical stories.

>>15636416
>Brainlet questions here
Hillel says that there is no such thing as a bad question, and that nobody should ever be ridiculed for asking about what they do not know. 4chan is filled with pseuds who need to make you feel bad to make themselves feel smart, I'm happy to answer any questions.
1. We dpn't know, but prevailing theory is the further from revelation at Sinai we are, the further from direct godly interaction we are.
2. I met someone who was raised christian but had the same question after they realized the core of christianity, Judaism, doesn't validate christianity. The talmud says goyim who believe in our god should live by the Noahide laws and literally just vibe the rest of the time-- learn philosophy, math, whatever you want, Judaism included, though you have no obligation to learn more about it. If you want to, it's open to you learning without converting (though you can convert).
3. Destroying the Dome of the Rock would start World War 3, and the Third Temple is supposed to come with the Messiah. We are not permitted to rebuild it until he comes, nor even to set foot on the temple mount.

>>15636740
I hear where you're coming from. It should be said first that most Jews couldn't care less about what those rabbis say about anything and aren't Jewish supremacists. In my life, yes, I have met Jews who talk about gentile souls being inferior, and they get it from sources like that and their communities. However, the only ones who say it are generally Black Hat Orthodox who talk to as many non-jews as you do goyim. It'd be like justifying hatred of white people because /pol/ is filled with nazis and white supremacists. I don't believe it, all mainstream sects of Judaism don't believe it, and those who do are as insufferable as all other kinds of racial supremacists. Of the rabbis you mentioned, I can only speak to Kook and Maimonides, and with both of them, the idea of gentile souls being lower than Jewish souls is held in conjunction with teachings about how having a "lower soul" or "higher soul" means pretty much nothing, since we're all dirty humans with both being and form. That's not even getting into what the Jewish concept of what a soul is, which heavily changes the meaning of "higher or lower soul".
I mentioned it earlier, but an often repeated talmudic teaching about the virtue of goyim is that
1. A gentile who learns torah is as holy as the high priest on yom kippur
2. All gentiles who are good decent people have a place in the world to come.

>>15636636
shukran habibi, we have much more in common than our leaders want us to believe. Cyrus is the most based leader in history and is still unmatched. It's nice to see such interest in Judaism when the status quo discourse about it is so hateful
>>15636680
I'm more familiar with the Jubilee year in agriculture than the book of Jubilees, which isn't canon for us. Go for it, do your best

>>15636898
Do Jews really think that other tribes don't have legitimate reasons to persecute/expel/hate them?

>>15637010
Right, appreciate the answer. I might have to look further into the Jewish idea of the soul. I recently finished Kaplan's Introduction to Kabbalah, Meditation and Prophecy and found it very enlightening and will look at some of your other suggestions in this thread.

>>15636898
In response:
1) I'll accept this.
2) Do you think Zionism, after the state has already been established, is conductive to more extremist views like Jewish superiority, and how many Jews would you say support things like Jewish superiorty?
3) Are you that wealthy yourself? How much money do you/your family make yearly?
4) You do know that Jews like George Soros, who's organizations have been banned in multiple countries (particularly Russia), are causing this collapse, correct? While you are of course against antisemetism, I don't see how you can deny that your people are the ones who brought the ideas which are leading to the collapse of this nation, namely: pornography, sexual "revolution," abortion, all sort of demoralization.

Also, do you believe in/have you observed nepotism occurring among Jews in places like academia, business and politics?
>I don't know why MAGA people thought that it is possible to remain the top country in the world while being isolationist
First of all, I'm not MAGA. Also, there's a difference between nationalism/identitarianism and isolationism. Nobody wants to pull out of the global trade or anything of that sort, they simply want to stop mass immigration and bring business back to America (as in, Nike needs to stop using labor in x country and just bring their work here, not stopping international trade). The current climate of anti-democracy is a product not solely of Trump, but primarily the continued demoralization of the American people, race baiting, misrepresented facts in mainstream media, social media, etc.

>>15636768

I think >>15632798 answers most of it. You can convert, but it is a process that takes years. Think of it as moving to the US- if you're born there, you can be as knowledgeable and ignorant of your culture as you want and you're still american. To become a citizen requires you to learn US History and Civics on a level most US citizens don't know. That's conversion to Judaism.

>>15636781
Hi bubbeleh, I'm still here.

Yes, it's one of my favorite topics because of how interesting it is.
The tractate of the Talmud where this is discussed is Eruvin, and it is one of the hardest tractates.

I'll give an explanation since you asked, but this will also be a simple first talmud study if anyone is interested
>in b4 'slimy legalistic jews are so jewish and legalistic and break laws', I'm sorry you got filtered. If you don't get it that's fine, but reacting in anger is just personal immaturity.

There are two classes of Laws in the Talmud- M'Sinai, from Sinai, and DeRabbanan, from the rabbis. The former class is totally indisputable and is used as the basis for many arguments and traditions of the latter.
Something M'Sinai would be "Observe the Sabbath Day and keep it holy", from the Ten Commandments. What we do is we ask "what does it mean to "observe" the sabbath and to "keep it holy"? What actions does that entail? Moreso, the Ten Commandments are read twice, once in Exodus and once in Deuteromy. and the first time it says to "Observe" (Shamor) the Sabbath, and the second time it says to "Remember" (Zachor) the sabbath day. What does it mean to remember, and since both are said, what does each one mean? How do we apply that to our lives?

Halacha De'Rabbanan, from the rabbis, serves to try and fill in that blank.

>The way I read it, it would make taking anything out of your home on sabbath forbidden. But that does not make any sense to me.

That is nearly exactly what the Rabbis thought. The conclusion reached was that it is indisputable that you cannot carry things around in a public space on shabbat. The Tractate Eruvin serves to create the Halachic Construct of the Eruv, a string surrounding a neighborhood, town, or city that transforms it from a public space to a private space. It's a lot of needling logic, but that's the point. It's a complete flex in using logical systems to determine legal frameworks and answer hard questions in the process.

In practice, it ends up like this.
If I'm in Buttfuck Montana, I cannot carry a bag with me on shabbat, and I cannot go more than a 1000 step vicinity from my door because everything outside of my house is public domain.
However, if I'm in Jerusalem, I can walk within the boundaries of the eruv as much as I want with however many bags I want-- though using the eruv as an excuse for labor is strictly forbidden.

>>15630625
Are there fringe Jews who obsess about how the Vatican controls the world through Christianity or anything like that?

If so any books by any of these people?
I would love to read a Jewish version of pic related.
I find this stuff extremely funny.

>>15636941
People of the book. Not literal worship of the word, though words are crucial in kabbalah and jewish metaphysics (Aryeh Kaplan's Jewish Meditation). Our books matter a lot to us, even to the people who don't read them. Do americans really care about Moby Dick, even if they haven't read it?

>>15636987
The greatest crime of western education is that it doesnt teach people that they can just create new ideas. our world is very different from the past, and we cannot rely on the systems of the past to supply for the needs of a new world. Marxism is retarded because it only talks about needing a revolution but says nothing about actually how to govern after the revolution. Democracy, capitalism, and mass technology are collapsing in on each other, and we need to work towards adapting ideologies of the past to a new future. I don't have a system better than democracy, but at the very least, nobody can deny that the Democratic Republic two party system in the US doesn't work anymore. The two party system controls politics on every level, and when it becomes clear to america that system has to change, new ideas will come.

>>15637003
That's what we're asking ourselves now. The destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 was the consequence of a long buildup of regional politics and history, but the talmud 700 years later tells that gossip and baseless hatred made god allow the romans to destroy Jerusalem (its a corny allegory deliberately, but still). So we're concerned in a few hundred years (only a few left until the year 6000) how the holocaust will be remembered, and whether it will be more theological, cultural, or historical.

>>15637009
>>15637094
2. Zionism in its core form is applying European Nationalism to ethnic minorities. If the Germans have the right to self determination, and the Russians do, and the Austrians do, according to Herzl, so do the Jews. In early zionism, this was extended to argue all people have the right to self determination, regardless of their status, meaning Native Americans have a right to self-governance, the Kurds do, Black Americans do, any self identifying group does, but it also argued for secular democracy. If this sounds nazi-ish it was written in 1897, and as I said earlier, it is just European Nationalism, which nazism and modern democracies buy into. George Steiner talked about this, >>15636545 for more. It's a complicated issue.

3. i didn't think people could be brainwashed into anti-semitism this heavily, but you really think my dad was like Adam Sandler in Uncut Gems. We're middle class, along with most other Jews I know. We never made more than 100k a year growing up and the financial crash of 2008 fucked us. Normal person shit. There are a nice amount who have parents who are doctors or lawyers, but the rest of us are normal people. I work at a used book store. There is no global conspiracy. Its crazy to me that this is really how you see it, because we're just people.

>>15637094
>You do know that Jews like George Soros, who's organizations have been banned in multiple countries (particularly Russia), are causing this collapse, correct? While you are of course against antisemetism, I don't see how you can deny that your people are the ones who brought the ideas which are leading to the collapse of this nation, namely: pornography, sexual "revolution," abortion, all sort of demoralization.
read >>15633002

I never said you were MAGA, but MAGA rules the country in a much more real way than the Jews do. Global Jewish Conspiracy is a cope for living in a shitty world while still benefiting in some way off the systems that actively fuck you. Reaaaaallly take a good look at yourself in the mirror. Keep eye contact for a while.

And what do you want me to do about it? I can do as much about soros as you can do about MAGA, but only the latter is actively destroying american democracy.

>>15637155
>Are there fringe Jews who obsess about how the Vatican controls the world through Christianity or anything like that?
>If so any books by any of these people?
>I would love to read a Jewish version of pic related.
>I find this stuff extremely funny.
My diary desu

>>15637289
>read >>15633002
You know that pornography addiction can be directly contributed to Jews though, right? It's not some complex capitalistic system that was developed over the century by many different people, the original pornographers were Jews, and the people who control the porn industry now are Jews (Lansky controls blacked, along with Tassillo controlling Mindgeek, the umbrella corporation for many other massive porn websites). There's a reason Weimar Berlin post WWI was considered one of the most degenerate places on Earth, while also being primarily controlled by Jews. Concerning the second time you reference back to this also, again, George Soros literally bought Hillary Clinton out a decade ago. He is responsible for the crash of Britain's financial system dubbed Black Wednesday. He is also a felon, and for a long time had complete control of the 7th level of the State Department. Are you going to blame Black Wednesday on "the proliferation of mass capitalism," despite Soros (an individual) literally being name dropped in every source on the topic for his mass shorting of the pound?

>Zionism in its core form is applying European Nationalism to ethnic minorities.
What about the Frankfurt school?
>We're middle class, along with most other Jews I know.
Middle class goys don't know people on the Forbe's 500 list, Silverman's family, or Seinfeld (both of whom are Jews, interestingly enough). I know a white guy very personally online who's family is rich, his father is the head of a branch of a fairly large company and they make millions. He doesn't know any famous/'influential' people, neither does his father. The only rich people they seem to know are people around that same pay bracket.

>MAGA rules the country in a much more real way than the Jews do.
Do you genuinely believe this? The overtone window has done nothing but shift massively to the left over the past years. Post-birth abortions are being talked about seriously, along with the abolishment of the second amendment and police, while innocent people are literally fired from their jobs for something as small as their wife making a comment on Twitter which can be perceived as being right winged.

>I can do as much about soros as you can do about MAGA, but only the latter is actively destroying american democracy.
Again, refer to my first statement. Soros, regardless of his ethnicity, is active in the destruction of countries and his organizations have been banned from multiple prolific states for this reason. Why do you deny any possibility of him playing a part in this?

>>15637403
>>15637289
Also, I would note that when I made the reply under "MAGA rules the country in a much more real way than the Jews do," I (possibly incorrectly) assumed you were referring to the right wing when you said MAGA. MAGA in and of itself is a Jewish institution; Trump's Jewish niece Kushner is in part ownership of pic related with George Soros, and MAGA sends millions of dollars, along with more recently urgently needed face masks, to Israel a year at the expense of the American people. The police here have been trained by JIDF forces in crowd control, my own popop who's completely on board with leftism and the abolishment of police told me himself, this is easily searchable information.

>>15631940
Pro-life is the american framing of the argument. There are just war theories in all major western religions.

>>15637403
Honestly, if you just follow the Epstein thread back to Roy Cohn, and keep going, and notice that everyone of importance is Jewish acting in Jewish interests, it becomes really fucking hard to not look like a Schizo retard when you say that "Jews have no power in the US".

I guess that's what years of inbreeding does to you, though.

What do you think about transexuals

>>15637403
>>15637427
>>15637449
>>15637487
Not OP but you’re ruining a good thread by being schizo retard

Why do you people still care about what Maimonides says?

>>15637610
I'm not those last two people you replied to, only >>15637403
and
>>15637427
How was anything I said schizophrenic? If you can prove me wrong or find some fallacy in my reasoning then please tell me.

>>15637610
>you're CRAZY for noticing these things! stop noticing!
Narcissism is the most Jewish of all mental illnesses, I applaud your cultural sensitivity to OP and his people's plight.

>>15637098
Thank you, that is a fantastic explanation.

>It's a lot of needling logic, but that's the point. It's a complete flex in using logical systems to determine legal frameworks and answer hard questions in the process.
Stuff like this is what got me hooked on the Talmud.

The level of detail everything has, from tiny laws about who owns fruit fallen from a tree to the exact size and direction synagogue doors should face is impressive, but the consistent logic behind it all is unbelievable at times. Nothing comes close except maybe the Greeks in a different way.

Follow up questions:

1. I tried reading the Zohar but it really did not click with me the same way the Talmud did. I got the feeling I was really missing a lot and gave up on it. Should I give it another go or will non-Jews not really get much out of it?

2. I've never really had the chance to speak with anybody about the Talmud until now. Do Jewish (religion) book clubs exist or any places to talk about this kind of stuff? The only Jewish book clubs by me are full of old Jewish ladies reading sad romance novels.
I thought about going to a synagogue and asking to talk torah with the rabbi but I was afraid that I would come off like pic related.

3. How well received are computers and the internet among the conservative and orthodox Jews and how are they managing to integrate technology into the religion if at all?

>>15636388
Thanks for answering my brainlet questions with patience and only a little snark. (I'm 15634042 btw). Kinda hard to not jump to emotive brainlet conclusions at times like in my first question when we all live in nightmare hell information overload times, that shit makes people gullible, but I'll keep your answer in mind t. amerimutt

Bonus question: do you have a favorite publisher for classic lit (ie Oxford, Penguin, etc)?

>>15637487
It's entirely possible to believe based on evidence that there is a "Jewish conspiracy" (let's be real, in the Epstein case an Israeli conspiracy) without coming to the retarded conclusion that every single person who attends a synagogue gets regular updates from Zion Central.

>>15636451
Otto Weininger was a self-hating effeminate homosexual, never forget that.

>>15636579
>nothing unusual here, we are on to you.
You mean you are able to read what he's writing poenly itt? Impressive.

How do you view / define God? Is God something that even can be defined rationally (I'm looking at you Western Christians) or is God something beyond reason, to not be poked and prodded and defined (here I'm looking at you Eastern Orthodox Christians, and maybe Muslims in general? Sufis surely).

>>15637651
Thank you :)

The Zohar didn’t click with me either. I mentioned earlier in this thread the traditional Jewish stance on Kabbalah, and how it’s very esoteric because those who teach it understand how much prior knowledge is needed to truly understand Kabbalah- see the Talmudic story of the Pardes for a description and explanation of why a grounding of prior knowledge is needed. Don’t worry about the Zohar, I don’t think I ever will. Besides, tradition holds you need a knowledgeable teacher to teach it to you personally, and learning alone is discouraged. Zohar really isn’t a big deal at all.

Ive heard there are a few good Daf Yomi (a page of talmud a day) podcasts and daf yomi is basically a giant book club on a 7 year cycle, but I haven’t listened to any of them- you could look into that. Considering where it seems you’re at, try focusing on the Mishnah for a bit just to get a broader idea of how the legal framework of the the talmud builds off the logical and legal framework the Mishnah.

Received like the rest of American society received it. Smartphones and computers are nearly universal, it’s really only the fringe.

With corona, some places are doing prayers over zoom to make a minyan, but integration of technology into religion hasn’t really happened. Conservative Judaism ruled people can drive to synagogue on Shabbat by a slim majority but that’s really all I can think of.

>>15637679
After reading kikes run the world 2000 times a day, it gets inside your head whether you want it to or not. Combined with what I describe in >>15633002 gives us the posts above you. Their “logic” is that someone with a Jewish father making primitive movies of two people fucking in 1923 directly causes them to spend 4 hours a day on pornhub. Do you see how ridiculous it is?

>>15637403>>15637427
>>15637449
>>15637487
>>15637628
>>15637650
pic related

What do you think of the fact that Reformed, Conservative and secular Jews aare going extinct while ultra-Orthodox Jews are breeding like rabbits (and constitute 1/3 of Israelis under 5)

>>15637610
I'm the guy who made the comment about just war, I don't see what's schizo about it. It's very well known that there are theological arguments to just war and its limits in both Christian and Islamic theology, and it makes sense.

>>15637679
Also in my experience
Penguin
>Cheaper
>better format
>nice yellowing and old book smell when they age
>poor binding, pages and covers tear and fall out after a few decades
>page feels nice on hand

Oxford
>I like the format less
>I like their translations more
>I like the cover aesthetics less
>books hold together for decades and don’t fall apart

Bloomsbury
>terrible
>is to publishing what >>15637427 is to the human race
>probably gay

That’s just in my experience working at a used book store.

>>15637595
I think they’re hot when they’re hot and ugly when they’re ugly

>>15637622
Because we value our history and culture and honor our greatest intellectuals

>>15637830
>>15637866
>pic related
>you're gay
Good arguments. Nice to know you're just like every other Jew, and won't actually bother to defend your beliefs when any critique above the complexity of "Jews are bad because pol said so" is raised.

>>15637869
It's pretty funny to see this kind of answer when OP has made several superlong posts with detailed arguments.

>>15637869
You haven’t attacked my beliefs, you’re asking me to answer for stuff that I have no part of and also doesn’t exist. My beliefs and this thread have nothing to do with Soros or Kushner, but you’re so upset by your life that you need to blindfold yourself and blame it on the Jews rather than see the real problems in your society and how your society has created them.

We were all having a nice conversation about something people are interested in and don’t know a lot about but nobody can mention Jews without your autistic screeching.

You think you’re attacking my beliefs and totally fucking owning the Jews when you’re shitting in your hand, eating it, and then smearing “the Jews did this” on your walls. It’s embarrassing and shows what an emotionally and intellectually deficient individual you are.

>>15631299
Which is what he did in the second. Go look up a word by word translation and comparison and see his claims of mistranslation are not as cut and dry as he makes them appear.

Does Judaism have a "theology of the body" like Catholicism? I am an agnostic homosexual, but I find Catholicism's reasons for disapproving of it relatively humane and comprehensible (even if I disagree). From what angle does Judaism approach sexual morality? What kind of attitude does it have toward homosexuals -- especially gentile ones?

>>15637890
Are you referring to arguments earlier in the thread? If so, please link them. If you're referring to his replies to me, though, then measuring by "length" and "detail", which you mention his arguments have quite a bit of, my responses were multiple times the length of his and were a fair bit more detailed, I'd say at least. If someone is arguing with you in good faith, they have the choice to either disagree and debate your points, capitulate to your reasoning, or suspend judgement due to a seeming lack of evidence. Posting a meme picture isn't a proper response.
>>15637911
>You haven’t attacked my beliefs
If your beliefs are that of semetism and 'anti-antisemetism,' (in the sense of being both Jewish and against antisemetism), then I think I've made it quite clear I have.
>you’re so upset by your life that you need to blindfold yourself and blame it on the Jews rather than see the real problems in your society and how your society has created them.
American society was quite okay for a long time. It was only Jewish policies, implemented by Jews, which ruined it. My life is just fine right now, why are you resulting to ad hominem? I never mentioned you personally in this argument, at least from what I recall, so why are you mentioning me personally?
>We were all having a nice conversation about something people are interested in
I am interested in Judaism.
>It’s embarrassing and shows what an emotionally and intellectually deficient individual you are.
I'm not in the business of dick measuring. Why don't you refute my last points? Why is it that, a white man (and I use the term man very particularly here) will come to the defense of his people when someone attacks them, a black man will come to the defense of his people when they're attacked, an Asian will come to the defense of his people, etc., but a Jew always avoids the questions and simply results to low blows and personal insults?

>>15630625
Thoughts on Beta Israel?

What direction do you see Israel moving in politically?

What happened with the big orthodox protest over kids being pulled out of Yeshiva and drafted?

Thoughts on those sabbath buttons that may or may not turn on the lights?

>>15637971
See the whole paragaraph here >>15637289
>The greatest crime of...
also (same post)
>2. Zionism in its core form...
and even
> We're middle class...
All adressing the issues of modern degeneration, Zionism and well-connectedness.
See also this entire post which is a detailed argument about Jewish law >>15637098 or that post here >>15636898 starting with
>1. No, there are many...
which is all about Jewish greed, zionism, well-connectedness and US politics.

All arguments, you may not agree with them but they are arguments. OP didn't answer to you specifically in detail because your claim were ridiculous or unnecessarily accusatory. I don't agree with him on everything but clearly you have a chip on your shoulder and are just trying to have OP validate your grievance. So I understand why he thought he shouldn't waste time with you, but he has otherwise answered similar and better worded questions itt.

Do all Jews carry a fake bag of gold around there necks to trick people trying to steal the real bag of gold all jews carry around there necks?

>>15638067
I don't know if you've actually read any of the threads, but the first post you linked (the last section of said post, specifically) was a reply to me. I responded here >>15637403
and here >>15637427
The last post you linked of his was also a response to me, which I again, have responded to. I'm not sure if you're new to 4chan, but you should get used to reading post replies before making comments on conversations.
>OP didn't answer to you specifically in detail because your claim were ridiculous or unnecessarily accusatory.
Most of my claims were fairly self contained and much less "schizophrenic retardation" than the average /pol/ post. I didn't start being accusatory until he blatantly ignored my arguments regarding the subject matter and instead opted to post a reaction image and call me stupid and gay.
>you have a chip on your shoulder
I don't see how you've come to that conclusion.
>and are just trying to have OP validate your grievance
I wanted to know how he would respond to certain contemporary matters of which are attributed quite a bit to Jewish influence in places like /pol/. I did not become accusatory or make it personal until he did.

>>15638141
>I don't know if you've actually read any of the threads
I've read the whole thread.
>but the first post you linked (the last section of said post, specifically) was a reply to me.
Then I don't see what room you have for complaining that OP doesn't have any arguments and only ad hominem. Sure OP called you names, which I don't approve, but it's unfair to say he has done nothing but that.

>I didn't start being accusatory until he blatantly ignored my arguments
You shouldn't have started being accusatory no matter the reason, just like OP shouldn't have called you name no matter the reason.

>I don't see how you've come to that conclusion.
Precisely from your accusatory which was unwarranted. If it was merely anger or exasperation, then I have misread your intentions, but that was also probably the case of OP.

> I did not become accusatory or make it personal until he did.
Fair enough, although again I don't think it helps in any way. However I don't really see why you had so much room to be disappointed by his first answers (the last are a different story). You may not be convinced that MAGA is a bigger threat to the US than Jewish influence (I would agree that's a stretch), but you can understand why somebody would think this. On the other hand it's understandable that someone would find dubious the claim that, for instance, Jews are responsible for pornography (Jews are responsible for neither lewd content nor for modern mass media, even if they have participed in both, so why would they be the sole responsible for pornography which is a natural combination of the two? It make as much sense to blame Jews for advertising and propaganda -although many Jews were influential in it, you could say the same for, e.g. Nazis).

Please respond >>15637845

>>15630774
Lots of the dead sea scrolls are mystical exegesis on the Hebrew bible which they say is secretly about their context in the 2nd temple era and the coming apocalypse. The practice is called Pesher. Look up dead sea scrolls pesher for more info

>>15638128
The real trick is our gold isn't even hidden in bags.

What’s your favorite book of the Old Testament?

Do you accept you're a Germanic-Slavic cumskin from Europe LARPing as a brown Jew/Judean/Israelite/Hebrew/Semite/Levantine from the Middle East?

>>15638166
>Then I don't see what room you have for complaining that OP doesn't have any arguments and only ad hominem.
The problem isn't that he hasn't provided any arguments at all, I don't deny that he responded to me nicely after the first post. The problem is that after I wrote out a complete response addressing all of his points, he simply ignored it in favor of posting a meme picture.
>Precisely from your accusatory which was unwarranted. If it was merely anger or exasperation, then I have misread your intentions, but that was also probably the case of OP.
This is a fair point, but I never meant to be accusatory during the original dialogue.
>However I don't really see why you had so much room to be disappointed by his first answers
I was fine with his first answer, I responded with "I'll accept this," although I understand how that may seem snobby. The second question was simply concerning the nature of Zionism, and he replied with the idea that Zionism is simply nationalism just like European nationalism, to which I responded by citing the Frankfurt school, something known to be more than just nationalist. The third question I responded like I did because it seems as if he has an idea that it's normal for middle class people to meet with people from Silverman's family, forbes 500 lists, etc. and doesn't seem to understand how this could indicate Jewish nepotism of some kind. Regarding the Jewish role in pornography, along with things like mass immigration, this was something that, while of course naturally occurring in a capitalist society, was accelerated primarily by Jews and their role in it. We can simply observe the leaders of the major porn organizations, such as MindGeek and Blacked. Both are owned by Jews, with blacked (from what I've heard, don't quote me) even losing money on many of their productions but still producing. This is right alongside the fact that the biggest child pornography/prostitution ring we've found was run by Epstein, a Jew. It's very hard for me to be convinced that there isn't at least some correlation between Judaism and pornography/sexual "revolution."

>>15632436
The masoeretic lines up word for word with the dead sea scrolls from 200 bc. Try again christoid

can someone give me a rundown on the Jewish argument against Jesus as the messiah? I'm not a Christian anymore but was raised as one and only heard their side of the story but I'd be curious about how much of a stretch it really is since people are talking about it.

>>15638317
>I responded with "I'll accept this,"
This was fine, it was what lead me to think you were two different persons, since the tone and nature of the questions changed so much. I'm a bit surprised you wrote such different posts.

>to which I responded by citing the Frankfurt school
Not sure Zionism has much to do with the Frankfurt school. OP's right that originally zionism is 19th century European nationalism applied to Jews. It might be this (and a few others things) that ticked him off. The Frankfurt school is a dead-end rationalist criticism of Enlightenment, it's a pretty snooty and barely relevant school of thought. Bringing it up in this context is usually a /pol/ red flag, hence OP's overreaction.

>it's normal for middle class people to meet with people from Silverman's family
Heh, personally I figured he just lives in a wealthy area or something. Fun thing, I'm also middle class Jewish, the richest people I know are Catholics and the most well-connected show-businesswise are North African and Senegalese. They also aren't that rich. From what I gather you need to go to private elite school to meet the billionaire types.

>this was something that, while of course naturally occurring in a capitalist society, was accelerated primarily by Jews and their role in it.
Not sure about the 'primarily', I feel like for most of their stay in the US the Jews have played a similar role as the Irish and Italians, but I'm not American, so I might have the wrong idea.
But even granting it, it seems you agree with OP on the fundamentals - that those things are first and foremost natural results of capitalsm.

>the leaders of the major porn organizations
This I would agree if porn wasn't so ubiquitous and such a natural consequence of the functioning of Western societies. If there were no Jews, do you expect porn would not be spread similarly? I don't feel like Wasps for instance have been any slacker in promoting degeneracy for profit, despite their sometimes puritanical culture. See how prostitution is rampant and institutional in some parts of the redneck South.

>This is right alongside the fact that the biggest child pornography/prostitution ring we've found was run by Epstein
Afaik there was no child pornography in Epstein's case. Huge internet pedo ring have been caught, but Epstein wasn't one of them. Guy was a major sleazeball but I'm not sure he can really compete with Eastern European sex slave trade for instance. He's mostly high-profile because of his connections. Completely deserved his fate, don't get me wrong.

>at least some correlation between Judaism and pornography/sexual "revolution."
Correlation with upper class assimilated Jews you mean. Which would be true but not sure it means much, correlation is a loose relation. I'd agree with you more readily if all those things weren't pushed just as often by Europeans and American liberal goyim.
Sexual revolution seems to be directly antagonistic with traditional judaism.

>>15638317
nta but why do you believe something as complex as the change of the very fabric of a culture can be attributed to something as human as a select group of a select group?
>but the jews run the porn companies!
doesn't cut it. the far more logical explanation to choose here is that jews are simply playing as good capitalists, opportunistic enough and smart enough to sense the market changes and growing possibilities to make a profit. fundamentally you're forgetting that, before they can be schemes, the urge to masturbate or the urge to leave home for a better life are constant and fundamental human impulses, which are far more easily seen to be exacerbated by more profound historical events like the collapse of religious inhibitions on sexual morality or the lingering consequences of European colonialism. here in the main the crime you could accuse jewish people for is nothing more than intelligent exploitation, which also happens to be the rule in our globalist neoliberal societies.
i just do not understand your disconnect. if mass immigration is naturally occuring in a capitalist society and jews accelerate it, how does that mean anything other than that jews are acting as good capitalists? efficient agents of a rotten system, efficient where others would be equally ruthlessly if only they were as successful

>>15638446
>Not sure Zionism has much to do with the Frankfurt school.
I'm not very well read on the Frankfurt school, but from what I know it was a school for Jews which promoted ideas of subversion of the West, which may be tied into the criticism of the Enlightenment (which included themes such as Romanticism, a Western ideal).
>Fun thing, I'm also middle class Jewish, the richest people I know are Catholics and the most well-connected show-businesswise are North African and Senegalese.
Where do you live country wise? There may be a difference between Israelites and others in terms of who they know, considering Israel would assumedly have a much higher consistency of influential Jews.
>From what I gather you need to go to private elite school to meet the billionaire types.
Jews are regularly accepted into high level/Ivy league schools based on their race, compared to Asians and whites.
> I feel like for most of their stay in the US the Jews have played a similar role as the Irish and Italians, but I'm not American, so I might have the wrong idea.
Jews definitely didn't have it like the Italians, and especially not the Irish considering things like indentured slavery. Jews were influential in America from the start, this is why you see people citing things like the Jewish run slave trade and the disproportionate amount of Jewish slave holders compared to populations.
>If there were no Jews, do you expect porn would not be spread similarly?
I would expect porn to have developed more organically, if that makes sense. America was originally a puritan, Christian country, and so ideals like porn would have been approached very slowly and with caution. In the past 5 years though, we've seen it blow up with websites like blacked, being spread constantly, accepted in the mainstream, discussed openly, etc. While this may be simply a consequence of the internet, I still think that Jews have a part in accelerating its spread on the internet. Most porn for a long time online was contained to shitty small websites like Motherless, but in less than ~10 years, pornhub and its related sights under the Mindgeek umbrella have grown beyond control, with all sorts of depraved videos being advertised openly. Blacked is directly promoting the normalization of interracial sex. I don't think these sorts of things would have happened, especially this early in the game, if Jews had not been a part of it.
>See how prostitution is rampant and institutional in some parts of the redneck South.
I'm not sure I've ever heard of this.
>Afaik there was no child pornography in Epstein's case.
Perhaps not internet child pornography, but the guy had an island named "Lolita Island", a plane named "Lolita plane", was involved with the Clintons and many other high profile people, owned some REALLY weird paintings, and conveniently "nothing of importance" was found by the FBI upon inspection. Don't you think that's fishy? cont in a sec.

Is anyone taking screenshots of this? I find this thread quite interesting.
Thanks OP.

>>15636898
Yeah you're not well read at all of psychoanalysis. Kind of a brainlet take. Give Freud a read, and you'll see why he is wrong and right. No one works completely according to Freud these days.

>>15638446
>Correlation with upper class assimilated Jews you mean. Which would be true but not sure it means much, correlation is a loose relation.
I agree, it is loose. The reason I point it out though is because it bares resemblance to things like the slave trade and ancient Judaic practices in terms of its Jewish influence and degeneracy (i.e blood libels, Sodom and Gomorrah).
>>15638451
>nta but why do you believe something as complex as the change of the very fabric of a culture can be attributed to something as human as a select group of a select group?
Because this particular group can be attributed to generally being the leaders of the organizations which push these things, along with historically being usurers, globalists, and parasites (in the sense of, for example, the money Israel has had the US send to them over the years to fund their wars with Palestine).
>the far more logical explanation to choose here is that jews are simply playing as good capitalists
Even if we were to assume Jews were more intelligent on average than whites (which they aren't, and the limited tests which show this are extremely biased in their samples), then why are Asians not dominating American domestic capitalism? The only explanation would be something along the lines of nepotism/particular lack of honesty/etc. being prevalent among Jews.
>the crime you could accuse jewish people for is nothing more than intelligent exploitation, which also happens to be the rule in our globalist neoliberal societies.
I would say that this "globalist neoliberal society" was created by the Jews. America only became a globalist country in the early 1900's, when FDR was in office. Neoliberalism is an ideology funded by people like Soros to set America onto a path of self destruction.
>. if mass immigration is naturally occuring in a capitalist society and jews accelerate it, how does that mean anything other than that jews are acting as good capitalists?
I don't believe I ever claimed mass immigration is naturally occurring in a capitalist society, I said that Jews pushed mass immigration. Particularly, the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, created by a Jew.
>efficient where others would be equally ruthlessly if only they were as successful
Are you forgetting that the white men who built this country from the ground up, some of the most intelligent and successful political thinkers in history, attempted only to build a country for the people by the people, instead of setting in regulations that could be easily manipulated by them later? The idea of sacrificing others for yourself is not white, it is Jewish.

>>15630625

Interesting thread.
Dear OP, that's a bitter way to part from your community and I wish you all the best.
I have a few questions:
Do you like 4chan and why do you come here?
What do you think of Franz Rosenzweig or is he unknown outside of Germany?
It seems that you are living in the US, but your Torah school was in Israel. Where are you going to live in the future?

>>15638590
>Jews are regularly accepted into high level/Ivy league schools based on their race, compared to Asians and whites.
Jews may be overrepresented in elite colleges but then there are lots of great jewish scientists. I mean look at the Manhattan project.
Nonetheless how does one get admitted to these schools? My impression is that you need excellent grades. Or a lot of money to bribe people, just like in the current Georgetown case.

>>15638742

I've known people who went to Ivy League schools. Most of it comes from what high school you went to. Obviously you also need to good grades and extra-curriculars, but unless you're a scholarship/diversity admission, you need to come from a prestigious private school to even be considered.

>>15631469
>Decadence is a virus of the capitalist west and we are infected


I agree but...

>The 3rd richest family I know had cirque de soleil at their daughter's bat mitzvah.

Sounds like a pretty good way of blowing a large amount of money. You're funding talented performers... The creation of art and beauty is good, and if you channel modern excess into that outcome then that's positive. Far better than how some people like to blow it (I've heard of jewelry made of human flesh, for example.)

taubes or scholem?

>>15636898
https://www.karaites.org/

>>15630625
I like your people and have some Jewish friends.
However, online, I often came across a lot of circular reasoning/logical fallacies that were specifically made to drag the argument to exhaustion and confusion so that it felt not worth pursuing anymore (and the outsiders reading it were befuddled).

Is this a common thing in Judaism? Is there a name for it? I've heard "pilpul" but it doesn't seem to be the same thing.

>>15630625
Is...is this what a good jew looks like?

>>15631102
>We are genetically smarter because for a good millenia every smart boy in Europe was whisked up by the Catholic Church to be sodomized and then made celibate as a priest,
Explain Hasidic sodomy then

>>15630625
Why do I get turned on by femboys if I'm not gay and want a family?

>>15638621
There are archives, anon.

>>15632663
>its in the ten commandments
This just says you're not allowed to have gods before this guy, but you can have as many as you want after him, my "fellow monotheists" ;)

>>15638674
i'm sorry but you're just begging the question. why do you think that leaders, organizations have an overwhelming influential force on our world? you're working backwards, taking every aspect of our society which you, rightly or wrongly, abhor and locating the jewish elements that exist in it, to the extent where none other actors (and more importantly, forces) seem relevant. jews will always seem evil if you define them as "evil". why is there no similar logic exercised over jewish influence on science and the wickedness of the theory of relativity?

based

>>15637010
>We are not permitted to rebuild it until he comes

Didn't the haredis freak out about the creation of the state of Israel for similar reasons?

>>15631102
>Jews were traumatized by the holocaust, and what I know to be intergenerational trauma
So everyone whose grandparents were holocausted not by the Nazis but by a different government (mostly communists such as the Soviets or the Pol Pot, but also the Armenian genocide and probably others), have intergenerational trauma? Or is claiming to be a victim reserved solely for Jews?

>>15630625
How would you write a good Godzilla movie? What would you make it about?

One of the most enjoyable threads in a long time, thanks jewanon

Is the khazar milker meme true?

>>15638368
Cured my anxiety! Thnx!

>>15637830
>Daf Yomi
This is wonderful. :D
Thanks

>>15630625
>Yeshiva
did you catch corona

Phenomenal thread, thanks OP! I'm studying law and Christian theology so this is super interesting to me.

My question: It is my understanding that David and his team were allowed to break the law and eat the Holy Breads in the Temple to save themselves from starvation, because preservation of life overwrites all other norms. Why then it wasn't allowed for any random homeless person to do so?

I don't pay very much attention to religious fundamentalists. Is that a mistake?

>>15638451
>it's okay to run porn companies because you're really good and make alota muney at it!

>>15637403
Well said anon. Was getting tired of everyone praising this Jew for elaborating on his religion with details that anyone who has spent a sizable amount of time on this Taiwanese underwater basket-weaving imageboard already knows. The /pol/ memes literally make themselves. I thought OP was one of the good Jews that hate themselves and their blood since he was ostracized by his family, but he was actually ostracized for being TOO Jewish. Just another oy vey dime a dozen kvetcher. While I do find the Jewish character profoundly interesting, unless he prefaces whatever he says with the statement that everything he says is either a lie or a half-truth, unwittingly put or not, then you listen to him at your own peril. A lot of the boot-lickers in this thread need to remember that.

>>15638368
Not at all, there's some agreement - but it also confirmed LXX readings.

>>15637403
Good post, anon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdiVHtW1axs

>>15642012
Forgot the second link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYPAvT-3Fvs

>>15631707
How does dying at 48 make you a tzadik? Did a famous mekubal die at that age too? Because numerologically, I don't think it's very significant.

>>15637403
Yes anon, I'm sure porn exist only because of the jews, it's not like it exists in several different culture without any jews

>>15642214
Disingenuous pilpul. Doesn't address what he said.

>>15632798
Yep, every Jew.

>>15642214
Typical. When someone points a finger at Jews they claim it's just bad apples. Same when you point out the violence of blacks. It's just individuals they say. Always ignoring in the end that Jews are present as the vast majority.
But whites are treated as a group that must pay for their history of "oppression". Typical dishonest argument.

>>15639339
You want to approach power in a relative way that ends up neutering a real revolution from the start. Jewish power is obviously vast as is shown easily in America's mysterious tirades in the middle east and by the blatantly obvious overly numbered seats of power held by such a small foreign minority.
It's all VERY simple.
The contradition is very easy to show by simply replacing "Jew" with "Chinese".
Pic related is the Jewish scheme of revolutionary jargon duping the lowest elements of society. They are the high element. No revolution comes solely from the low. None.

>>15638368
That's straight-up false.

>>15639184
You are secretly gay.

>>15630977
Total nonsense.

>>15631102
>(valid and correct) arguments can be triggering, even if its already accepted we don't believe.
Maybe it's because the last 2000 years of Jewish history is just a MASSIVE cope for spending millennia waiting for the Messiah and blowing your chance.

>>15643054
Delusional, the KJV was translated by the eternal Anglo.

>>15643112
Every major version, Jewish or Christian, translates the passage the exact same way.

sorry, just woke up.
>>15638742
>Jews may be overrepresented in elite colleges but then there are lots of great jewish scientists. I mean look at the Manhattan project.
I would disagree. The majority of science, mathematics, and philosophy has been powered forward by whites and middle easterners. This includes the creation of algebra, Calculus, Combinatorial analysis, geometry, analytical geometry, etc. Jewish influence in science, from my knowledge, was only very recent with, like you said, relativity and the Manhattan project (it is funny, though, that the major success of the Jewish people in science was a weapon of mass destruction).
>Nonetheless how does one get admitted to these schools?
From the people I've talked to, excellent grades are a part and pretty standard, but they also generally need to be paired with some other exceptional talent. The people that get in based purely on knowledge/skill in a field, like math for example, without some other exceptional talent, generally are the cream of the crop of said field and at a much higher level than most. These types of people I believe are the first to be considered, and then after that it's mostly a matter of money, donations and nepotism.
>why do you think that leaders, organizations have an overwhelming influential force on our world?
I'm pretty sure this isn't an uncommon idea at all. It's pretty obvious to anyone you could ask that America (and as follows, all American influence overseas due to the "Americanization" of the world) is run solely by companies and the rich, and these people can get pretty much what they want done politically. This is not only due to their political influence, but also their media presence, as the majority of media seen by the laymen is provided by just a few massive companies like Google.
>to the extent where none other actors (and more importantly, forces) seem relevant. jews will always seem evil if you define them as "evil".
I agree, it's not the strongest logic. The reason I still believe it, however, is their historical background and current events. Starting with today, the dancing Israelis at 9/11, the USS Liberty, their choice not to join a coalition of world powers in the banning of chemical weapons, war crimes committed against Pakistan, the money they take from the US, and their influence over the media (more particularly, their influence over obviously subversive elements of media). reply is running long, can't fit everything.
>why is there no similar logic exercised over jewish influence on science and the wickedness of the theory of relativity?
Because there are always those who rise above their racial boundaries to be overwhelmingly good in some area. Kubrick, for example, was a pretty big antisemite/self hating Jew and made some of the most well acclaimed movies in history. There will always be blacks that are able to get into med school, Jews that aren't surreptitious, etc. but these are outliers and shouldn't be considered.

>>15641411
Based and gefiltepilled
Really, try living around these people they're monsters

>>15643492
Funny how they stopped replying. They first insulted you trying to discredit your opinions by belittling you, then they started criticising the way you presented your opinions and finally kinda started arguing that most of the facts you presented were just weid coincidences. I swear to god you can't make this shit up. Tho in their defence I'll say that probably most jews aren't aware of soros and the overwhelming amount of jewish influence in progressive movements, so when directly confronted about it they're victim complex causes them to go into full defensive mode calling you names and generally trying to discard your claims as simple paranoid schizoposting. I don't believe jews are evil people, or that they hate white christians to the point of trying to destroy the west. Their involvement in progressive and pro immigration movements is probably a self defense mechanism. They understandably feel their community can only be safe in a multicultural/multiethnic society, yet the discrimination towards their community stems from on the fact that they refuse to integrate fully in their host nation's cultural and religious landscape so it's like a dog chasing its tail. For soros I doubt that his jewishness plays a role in his plans. But ultimately the damage that neoliberal progressive globalism is doing to our nations is ever more apparent and the jewish involvement in spreading and supporting such ideologies is too apparent to be discarded as a coincidence, so whatever the reason they join and often lead such movements is (be it pure evilness or simple self defense istinct) we must acknowledge the threat they pose to our society or, since I don't think it's going to be "our" society for much longer, the society we'd like to live in.

>>15644837
>They first insulted you trying to discredit your opinions by belittling you
To be fair this was only the original Jew I was arguing, OP. The other people who responded were more cordial.
>then they started criticising the way you presented your opinions and finally kinda started arguing that most of the facts you presented were just weid coincidences.
I agree that criticizing my presentation of opinions is weird considering the particular oddly esoteric Vietnamese knitting forum we're on, but the guy who replied didn't use it to completely ignore the rest of my arguments at least.
>finally kinda started arguing that most of the facts you presented were just weid coincidences.
This is very difficult to amend honestly. The majority of the subversive elements in our societies are either Jews or Jewish organizations, but of course correlation isn't causation. What other explanation could their be though, than nepotism at the least, for their constant occurrence in some of the highest echelons of our societies? Even if we were to accept the falsified claims of their IQ's being a standard deviation higher, why aren't Asians also at similar levels in America? Why are Jews so massively over represented? Like the video the other anon posted here >>15642012 , although I'm not a fan of all of the things stated in it, the Jews have both an ethnostate and a diaspora. These 'diasporic' elements are no doubt going to be loyal to Israel and other Jews, considering they still have their citizenship and allegiance to Israel.
I agree that the layman Jew won't have connections to particularly powerful Jews, but Jews are extremely close nit in the class bracket and community around them, which of course will always result in either identitarianism and hatred/exclusion of others, along with increased opportunity and, as stated, nepotism.
>whatever the reason they join and often lead such movements is (be it pure evilness or simple self defense istinct) we must acknowledge the threat they pose to our society or, since I don't think it's going to be "our" society for much longer, the society we'd like to live in.
It's a difficult thing to consider. While I'd say that the upper echelons of Jewry are almost definitely anti-white, or conspiratorial in their pushing of certain agendas, I agree that the common or even middle to upper class Jew knows nothing about it and really only supports these ideologies out of genetic disposition and historical antisemitism. How, though, can you tell me not to defend my homeland and my peoples' homelands from those who are trying to destroy it, whether or not they are conscious of this destruction? I never wanted to be put in this position where I'm genuinely considering such things as the ethno-nationalism/genocide/expulsion of entire groups based on their race, but what other way is there to cure this problem? How can we ensure that it doesn't happen to future generations?

>>15630625
How does it feel that the descendants of Kourosh are starting to regret his decision of freeing your vile peoples?

>>15638590
>but from what I know it was a school for Jews which promoted ideas of subversion of the West
That's the /pol/ take. Frankfurt schools types are admirer of Western culture (especially classical music and philosophy), they were themselves brought up in it. Their issue is that they see WW2 (including the Holocaust) as a necessary consequences of the values of the Enlightenment, while at the same time still being rationalist inheritors of the Enlightenment. So they are in the very uncomfortable position of trying to rationally explain the inherent flaws of rationality (flaws, and not merely limitations, so it's a more painful undertaking than Kant's). This leas to negative dialectics, an interesting but ultimately sterile school of analysis.
You could sum it up by saying that they are stuck dealing with not only the death, but the suicide of the world they knew. Hence Adorno's dislike of popular culture, cinema and jazz. Nobody resents the contemporary world more than a Frankfurter.
Note also that Romanticism was explicitly a reaction against Enlightenment (at least its focus on rationality).

how is christianity logically inconsistent ? Isn't it all about logos whereas judiasm is the rejection of logos?

what do you think about e michael jones OP?

>>15630953
it doesn't really matter. he pointed out the KJV which does have the most cultural relevance, but is known to be pretty loose with translations. many other translations are available with loads of academic scholarship behind them. NRSV being the main one, and should be perfectly suitable for understanding the text.

I do acknowledge that a lot can be lost in translation, but a good bible with footnotes and appendicies will be more than adaquate to make up for it. OP meming about translations makes me question his authenticity more than anything else.

>>15645322
Like I said, I'll admit the Frankfurt school is a bit out of my depth. I'm reading on Wikipedia, though, that they were responsible for change to a more democratic society in Germany post-WWII, is this true? Also, do you have anywhere I could read more about them?

>>15638590
>Where do you live country wise?
France, which explains the Catholic part.
>Israel
Yeah if you live in Israel it makes sense that most important people you know about would be Jews.
>Jews are regularly accepted into high level/Ivy league schools based on their race
Maybe in the US (but it seems it is mostly the high class ones that get accepted, as with whites). In France you have to go through anonymous national contests. Higher class people still succeed disproportionately of course.

> considering things like indentured slavery.
Really? I always felt at least starting in the early 20th century those three demographics were very close. Maybe it was different pre-1900.

>Jewish slave holders compared to populations.
Ah, I see, I've heard about that though never seen data on it. How overrepresented were they, taking into account their overrepresentation among traders?

>I would expect porn to have developed more organically
That makes sense in theory (I see what the distinction means) but I can't figure what more "organical" porn would have looked like.

>America was originally a puritan, Christian country
To some extent, although I encourage you to read The Seed of Albion to learn about the different English-born people who made up the first American communities. There were four major waves: Puritains, Quakers, Cavaliers and Borderers, only the first two were sexually repressed. The Cavaliers for instance were notably promiscuous and adulterous. You can almost map the differences by looking at teen pregnancies rates by state to this day.

>And so ideals like porn would have been approached very slowly
In light of the capitalistic nature of American society that seems hard to believe. In the 18th century probably, in the 20th not nearly so much.

>blacked
This is more of a tangent, but I've always felt blacked was more a reflection of American obsession with race. I legit didn't understand the appeal of interracial porn until someone pointed that out to me (and I understand other sick fetishes like incest, although I don't share them). There's a legacy of racism and slavery in France too but the black-white stratification is nowhere near as ancient and essential to our culture. So blacked is really an essentially American thing imo.

>but in less than ~10 years, pornhub and its related sights under the Mindgeek umbrella have grown beyond control
How much of that do you think is simply a consequence of the explosion of internet consumer use?
> Don't you think that's fishy?
Yes the Epstein case is shady as hell, but he's still one big fish in an ocean of corruption. Again, compare with Eastern European slave sex trade.

It seems we agree that capitalism is the main cause of porn and degeneracy, and that a certain class of Jews had a part in it, and we disagree on whether the Jewish contribution was essential to it. I doubt we'll ever get to a definitive consensus on this point, but thanks for your thoughtful response.

OP what are your thoughts on circumcision?
Can ypu elaborate on the Jewish conception of God? Why stick to the religion as a secular jew? Are you an atheist?
What is your opinion on instrumentalizing the holocaust? I'm thinking of Norm Finkelstein and issues of the Israeli state. Are these issues?

>>15639139
>However, online, I often came across a lot of circular reasoning/logical fallacies that were specifically made to drag the argument to exhaustion and confusion
Isn't that typical for 4chan argumentation? Not OP btw.

>>15639962
A lot of orthodox Jews in Europe were fairly antizionist at the beginning, and for similar reasons. A state given by England for political purposes didn't seem to fit the prophecies very well.

>>15640253
>So everyone have intergenerational trauma?
Pretty much, if not everyone then a good proportion of them. That's especially the case for the victims of sustained hunger, so holodomor survivors (if there are any) would especially be concerned.

>>15645436
>Yeah if you live in Israel it makes sense that most important people you know about would be Jews.
The most important people you would know personally would be Jews most likely, yes, but even in a white ethnostate it's unlikely that I would personally know someone like Bill Gates or even George Carlin. Regardless, such things breed nepotism and, with the fact that Jews who aren't in Israel still have allegiance to Israel, subversive/disloyal elements.
>Really? I always felt at least starting in the early 20th century those three demographics were very close. Maybe it was different pre-1900.
I really doubt it. Jews, especially in the south, were generally part of the richer communities. Again, this is why you see people talk about the slave trade being run by Jews, and Jews being over represented as slavers for their population. It's very likely that protestant Saxons in America up until 1900 would have sided moreso with Jews than with Catholics like the Irish, also.
>Ah, I see, I've heard about that though never seen data on it. How overrepresented were they, taking into account their overrepresentation among traders?
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/244865233/
https://rense.com/general69/invo.htm
That first thread cites a lot of good sources (including many literally Jewish run websites and sources) on Jewish involvement in the American slave trade, and talks about the actual numbers. Only the OP and the initial post are what I'm citing though, ignore all other bullshit in the thread unless you want to read through it, but keep in mind that's not what my intention is. I also found that second source just now and, while a bit less trustworthy as I've never seen that site, seems to be written by a Rabbi and has cited information.
>That makes sense in theory (I see what the distinction means) but I can't figure what more "organical" porn would have looked like.
'Organic' porn growth in that it wouldn't have grown to the sick places it's now at. While there are always going to be those dark corners of the internet obsessed with fucked up fetishes, incest, outright racist interracial porn like blacked, piss fetishes, etc. wouldn't be as "everyday," common and openly talked about or pushed as they are now. I'll read the bok you recommended eventually, although I have a very large backlog. Thanks for the recommendation though.
>In light of the capitalistic nature of American society that seems hard to believe. In the 18th century probably, in the 20th not nearly so much.
I believe that, without Jewish interference (whether or not it is intentionally evil or simply a result of their nature/self defense mechanisms), we wouldn't have ultra-hedonistic culture we have now, at least not nearly to this extent, and so mainstream porn would have been less accepted.
will cont. in a moment. Also, I didn't realize the amount of spelling mistakes I made in the last post (mostly homonyms at least), I was pretty tired and still am

>>15645285
>I never wanted to be put in this position where I'm genuinely considering such things as the ethno-nationalism/genocide/expulsion of entire groups based on their race, but what other way is there to cure this problem? How can we ensure that it doesn't happen to future generations?
I don't see a solution other than a collapse followed by a complete ideological reset in the west. The reality is that ethnostates, genocides and expulsions are unthinkable in the current neoliberal west. Look around you everything you learn in school or through the media is made to prevent another holocaust or prevent discrimination of any sort, you can't escape this. You need to completely reshape our society in a way that can only happen once liberalism proves to be a failure and fucks off for good. Saying that todays decadence is the jews fault or saying that is capitalism's fault is equally incorrect, liberalism with its obsession with liberty fraternity and especially the toxic concept of equality will inevitably lead to the type of society we live in today. But if liberalism will ever be overcome by humanity we must not forget certain ethnic group's responsibilities when we build a new world.

>>15631102
>do not punish the son for the sins of the father
You are punished tho. Adam's sin didnt only affect him but affected you as well. You are here because of the consequences of Adam's decisions.

>>15642967
>>15644837
I keep warning a bad storm is coming. Jews say, "Quit talking about the storm. And it's only a few bad apples doing the rain dance. Look other people are dancing too." Fine, but the other people don't have 2000 years of bad history with the gentiles and it isn't the elites with their private security and New Zealand boltholes that are going to suffer from this. Only talked to one other Jew that wouldn't just deflect.

>>15638674
>blood libels, Sodom and Gomorrah
Sodom and Gomorrah is a mythical story in the Bible, not a practice. Blood libel is precisely that, libel. Iirc the best you can get for confirmation of blood libel is an article by an Israeli scientist about how a few extremist ashkenazim kabbalist used dried blood in some rituals. But it didn't involve murder and they were a minority of heretics.

>why are Asians not dominating American domestic capitalism
Most of their brighest minds are in Asia, and they are on the path to dominating workd capitalism. Almost half of Jews live in the US, most of the other half is in Israel and they tend to be less bright (and less well-educated) than US Jews. Jews aren't dominating American capitalist either, they're just a prevalent part of it. Fire the Jews executives and see how little business practices in Apple and co change.

>I would say that this "globalist neoliberal society" was created by the Jews.
It's very patently a product of the Enlightenment and industrial capitalism. Both things that are more Anglo and French (and to some extent German) than Jewish. Most people don't like to hear it but the modern world owes about as much to Nazis as it does to Jews.

>The idea of sacrificing others for yourself is not white
It's not an idea, it's a behavior. And a pretty common one, just look at the estimated proportion of psychopaths and sociopaths in the general population (some put it at about 10%).

>>15643492
> The majority of science, mathematics, and philosophy has been powered forward by whites and middle easterners.
You're not in disagreement with >>15638742 here. Being overrepresented =! having done the majority of the work. And it's a fact that Jews are overrepresented in Nobel prizes for instance.

>Jewish influence in science, from my knowledge, was only very recent with
It goes back to at least the 19th century, which is also when the groundwork of a good deal of modern science was being built. Don't forget that 20th century Jewish influence was first concentrated in Germany, which was then the hotspot for innovative science. The spike in Jewish influence in modern science is actually a spike in German influence. Which both relativizes the exceptionality of the Jewish contribution and makes it more natural than it appears at first glance.

>>15645285
>What other explanation could their be though, than nepotism at the least, for their constant occurrence in some of the highest echelons of our societies?
Speaking at a statistician, I'd say look at things like education and income, focus on studies, etc. (basically the socially determined factor of social success). You'd see that Jews have higher averages than most people in those areas, same with Asians. There is also communautarism, same with Asians (and any immigrant demographic really). Difference is Asians have been in US soil for a relatively short time and not at first in comparable numbers. Jews came to the US the same way whites did, and shared similar cultural elements (language, general culture, etc.). That's also why there are more Jewish scientists than Asian scientists in Western Academia (though that is changing). Those Jews belong to families that have been in Europe for a long time, Asians are relative newcomers. Add that a good deal of Jews were in Europe or in the US, while 90% of Asians are in Asia, and it starts to become more natural.

So TL;DR: look at history and then at basic prosperity determinators (which are a consequence of that history, see the European middle age), it should tell you a big part of the story. Not all of it, and I don't discount nepotism, but nepotism clearly isn't the only explanation.

>>15645417
>I'm reading on Wikipedia, though, that they were responsible for change to a more democratic society in Germany post-WWII, is this true?
Possible, but that seems like a overstatement of their influence. It seems to me their main role was a sort of cultural and moral arbitor in Germany for a particular class of educated people, although they also had contestation in that respect. German guilt for the Holocaust is absolutely a thing, but being defeated and cut in two after WWII seems like a more powerful cause of it than a handful of belated Hegelians.

Note that I haven't read from those guys, but I've read a critique of them from one of their successors (Habermas). Sloterdjik also seems to think they are growing irrelevant in Germany now.

>Also, do you have anywhere I could read more about them?
If you're not scared of big philosophical tomes, try Dialectics of Enlightenment, that's their main work.

>>15645436
>>15645628
>How much of that do you think is simply a consequence of the explosion of internet consumer use?
Of course porn would have blown up regardless of Jewish influence, I'm not denying that, and it is a factor. The problem is that I think this 'explosion' is being accelerated by Jewish influence, and past a point that it would have been taken originally regardless.
>Again, compare with Eastern European slave sex trade.
Do you have any information on this? I don't know much about it outside of shit like 'Taken'.

Regarding your conclusion, I agree, but I think the primary disagreement is whether or not porn/degeneracy is being weaponized by said Jews against those of European descent, and to what extent that would be.
>>15645722
>Being overrepresented =! having done the majority of the work. And it's a fact that Jews are overrepresented in Nobel prizes for instance.
Nobels prizes are a dick size contest, don't include mathematics, and don't disclude non-STEM areas. The geneticist who discovered the double helix DNA structure, for example, was stripped of his prize after saying that DNA accounted for the differences between white and black behaviors.
Also, I'm arguing that even when fixed for their population, Jews have accounted for almost none of the (mathematical especially) scientific improvements throughout history, and this could easily be accounted for due to their lack of settled civilization. In fact, I can't think of any massive improvement to math that was done by the Jews, almost everything has been pushed forward by Europeans (like I said - combinatorics, Calculus both by Newton and Liebnez, analytical geometry, Euclidean geometry, Archimede's innovations, statistics/probability, game theory, Fermat's theorems, and more). Keep in mind I'm primarily referring to large innovations in the field, which would include relativity and the Manhattan project outside of mathematics, but I doubt Jews have had much of a part even in smaller areas of math or subsects of what I've mentioned above.
>It goes back to at least the 19th century, which is also when the groundwork of a good deal of modern science was being built.
There is no time where the "groundwork of a good deal of modern science" was built. The governing theories of planetary motion didn't just pop up out of nowhere, these were conversations that were going on for centuries, millennia even.
>Don't forget that 20th century Jewish influence was first concentrated in Germany, which was then the hotspot for innovative science.
What innovative sciences are you speaking of? I know National Socialist Germany was greatly ahead of its time concerning intercontinental missiles and space travel, but of course I doubt there was much Jewish influence in that. The Manhattan project wasn't German either, it was Jewish/American (as in, it wasn't funded by Germany).

>>15645628
>it's unlikely that I would personally know someone like Bill Gates or even George Carlin
Sure (although those two don't strike me as the kind of figures a white ethnostate would produce).

>Regardless, such things breed nepotism
It's difficult to talk about nepotism when 70% of your population is from the same people. Nepotism is a problem more outside of Israel imo, and probably it's nowhere as big as it is in the US.

>Jews, especially in the south, were generally part of the richer communities.
Didn't know there were that many Jews in the South, I believe they were mostly concentrated on the East Coast (also I thought most Jews in the US descended from 20 th century immigrants). Will look into that slave trade thing.

> It's very likely that protestant Saxons in America up until 1900 would have sided moreso with Jews than with Catholics like the Irish
That's an interesting question, I wonder if there are example of controversies from that time. I always felt the Italian, Irish and Jewish immigrants in the US 20th century were pretty close, they even formed Mafias together.

>https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/244865233/
>https://rense.com/general69/invo.htm
Thanks for the source, will read them at some point (though not know, I've already spent too much time on 4chan today).

>'Organic' porn growth in that it wouldn't have grown to the sick places it's now at.
Aren't those places more talked about than frequented? I feel like a lot of our exposure to porn is due to the internet allowing people to hear about what people in other continent are fapping to, and to billions of people browsing the internet everyday. It's also the same issue with political ideologies, you see all kind of niche stuff becoming mainstream for a week and then dying out.

> Also, I didn't realize the amount of spelling mistakes
Don't sweat it, as long as you make sense.

>>15644837
>hey first insulted you trying to discredit your opinions by belittling you, then they started criticising the way you presented your opinions and finally kinda started arguing that most of the facts you presented were just weid coincidences.
You'd expect people impervious to arguments to do the opposite, get more in denial and accusation as time goes on. If anything that is a rather good sign.

>>15630625
You have all your logic yet you and your people still suffer, why?

>>15645760
>Difference is Asians have been in US soil for a relatively short time and not at first in comparable numbers. Jews came to the US the same way whites did, and shared similar cultural elements (language, general culture, etc.).
If we take the original cultural similarities of white Christians and Jews in, and disregard the false claims of Jews having a higher SD of IQ than whites, why is it then that they made up a disproportionate (to their population) amount of slave holders and traders?
The rest of the argument is good, and I can accept that they probably do score higher on things like the SATs and such, considering they're unfortunately more traditional/orthodox than the average white today. Even so, though, I find it hard to believe that income and highschool education would account for such massive gaps between Jewish and Asian Ivy league students, but even if it were that income alone could account for this, why is it then that white's don't make up such a large amount also, considering the population of whites and the amount of rich whites there are?
>>15645774
I'll check out the book then, thanks.
>>15645809
>It's difficult to talk about nepotism when 70% of your population is from the same people.
My people are slowly being replaced in their homelands through the creation of welfare states, mass immigration, and abortion/contraceptives/the encouragement of being anti-family for whites. Many whites are self-hating, and it's rare that I come across a racist white person. Whites, due to their large populations I would say, generally aren't nepotistic, as it seems they feel less of a responsibility to their own people (which is what, I would also say, accounts for the lack of nepotism actually in Israel). The diaspora, though, still remains nepotistic to themselves and their home country, and their home country to them.
>I believe they were mostly concentrated on the East Coast
This is true, but the south makes up half of the east coast (Georgia, South/North Carolina, Virginia, etc.). You're thinking of the south as in Texas and the more Mexican border states. Also, I'll have to talk to a friend of mine a bit more about this, he's from Carolina and I remember him saying something a bit more in depth about how the Jews moved throughout the South/Northeast, but I can't remember exactly.

Post is getting long, will cont. in a second.

>>15630625
Do you think the Jewish race could survive without the Jewish religion? I have been curious about this for some time.

>>15645809
>>15645904
>I wonder if there are example of controversies from that time.
Jews never actually "immigrated" to America in large amounts from what I know, other than post WWII and during the original founding. Of course we're more interested in the original founding, but considering their activity in the slave trade and the fact that they were on equal terms citizenship wise with the original Saxons, I wouldn't think it's far off the mark to say they were close. Obviously concerning the divide between the Catholics (Irish and Italians) and Protestants (Saxons), you can look at literally their entire history - The Troubles, Easter Rising, Irish Rebellion of 1798, indentured slavery of the Irish and their second class citizenship, etc. It would only make sense for Jews to side with the protestants here rather than the Italians and especially the Irish.
>I always felt the Italian, Irish and Jewish immigrants in the US 20th century were pretty close, they even formed Mafias together.
I don't know how much I believe this. Italian mafias were generally very close nit, I've never seen it but I know The Irishman accounts the story of an Irish leader of an Italian mafia who basically built their gang up, then was killed for not being Italian. While I don't doubt that the Irish and the Italians were close (I know many Irish-Italians, and I have many Italians friends and extended family members myself as an Irishman), I really doubt that there was much mixing of communities or gangs going on between both themselves and the Jews.
>Aren't those places more talked about than frequented?
Go on the front page of somewhere like Pornhub sometime, and you'll see that the entire recommended sections are filled with incest at the very least. The really bad stuff is much more contained I agree, but the fact that things like incest are openly advertised on mainstream porn sites, the "bbc" meme being spread all over and normalized, weird fetishes being completely fine to talk about in real life, etc. should show how far we've really fallen in terms of widespread degeneracy.

>>15645803
>Do you have any information on this?
My readings on Eastern European mafia are a bit outdated (and sadly the role of mafia in prostitution is a global phenomenon curently).
The fastest overview I could find without digging too much is a bit superficial, but gives an idea:
>http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-organized-crime-continues-to-dominate-the-prostitution-busine

(surprisingly enough even Amsterdam has a lot of criminal prostitution despite legalization)
I think the book Gomorra (about the Camorra, the Neapolitan mafia) also touches upon their prostitution network. This is very much a universal thing.

> I think the primary disagreement is whether or not porn/degeneracy is being weaponized by said Jews against those of European descent
I see, I doubt it is weaponized, simply because the people who run this benefit massively from the current state of affairs. Too much social unrests hurts progit margins. The picture is different if you look at political lobbies, but I don't know how those circles operate.

>Nobels prizes are a dick size contest, don't include mathematics, and don't disclude non-STEM areas.
To some extent, but the contributions in hard sciences are generally legit. In mathematics there is also a Jewish overrepresentation (see the Fields medal or the Wolff prize, who tend to be correlated anyway). Non-STEM areas is something else, but there are a lot of Jews in music and in philosophy (in the latter case going back to late antiquity at least). As in STEM, they're a minority but a non-negligible one. I don't buy the myth of Jewish intellectual exceptionalism mind you, but however you explain it it's true that there are a lot of Jews in intellectual fields. In my opinion they should be taken as just people working within the larger Western tradition, because that's functionally what they are (at least in those fields).

>Jews have accounted for almost none of the (mathematical especially) scientific improvements throughout history
Look into the 20th century heck just look in the Bourbaki school alone, between Weil, Cartan (both of them), Hadamard and Grotehdieck you have already enough to say the contribution to mathematics isn't negligible. Then you have older guys like Jacobi, various American and English one (Atiyah alone is huge), and many Eastern European Jews. Although again I think it's nonsensical to separate them from the larger mathematical tradition in which they were working. Jacobi is a friend and colleague of Gauss, Grothendieck is a student of Schwarz and Dieudonné, etc.

>There is no time where the "groundwork of a good deal of modern science" was built.
There is, some eras are more foundational than others. I'm close to post limit, but look into the 16th century for calculsu, 19th century for logic and group theory and the 20th century for quantum physics and relativity...
> conversations that were going on for centuries
True, but there are turning point as said above.

>>15632237

>Im totally not a jew guisssseeee, im just super interested
>WTF did you just say about the pharisees you little shit?!

5-5-5 come on now Rabbi

>An empire of their own: how jews invented hollywood

Excellent book (jewish author) on jewish domination of the entertainment industry and selective racism and discrimination against non-jews in the business.

>>15645803
>What innovative sciences are you speaking of?
German and Austrian early 20th century science is huge. Discovery of fission, relativity, photoelectric effect, quantum physics, the concept of spacetime, a shitton of chemistry including a fertilizer-producing process that might have avoided a malthusian collapse and that is used to this day. Relativity and quantium physics alone are among the top 3 or 4 most transformative theories in the history of physics, and most of its credit is shared among various German and Austrian.

Most of the strides that lead to the atomic bomb were lead by Germans, even the Manhanttan project was headed by the son of a German immigrant and had a lot of German scientists in it. Scientific work was distributed all over Europe but Germany had the lion share of it starting in the late 19th century.

>I know National Socialist Germany was greatly ahead of its time
In engineering yes, in fundamental science they mostly benefited from earlier work. Most of the great German scientist of the time started working before the election of Hitler. The best physicist under Hitler was Heisenberg, he was alredy well-known long before the nazi got to power.

> I doubt there was much Jewish influence in that
They rather shot themselves in the foot with their idea of "Jewish science" as opposed to "German science". That's a fundamental misreading, the science made by German Jews *is* German science (btw the first relativistic equations in the history of physics are Maxwell's laws of electromagnetism, but in fairness nobody had realized that in Maxwell's time). It also caused not only Jewish scientists, but many of their spouses, colleagues and friends who were also scientists to leave Germany. To a large extent US science post-WW2 is a direct outgrowth of displaced European scientists, many of whom were German. Without WW2, who knows, Germany might have become a scientific superpower the way the US is now.

Anyway if there are two things to take from my post, it is:
>German and Austrian early 20th century science is huge.
>the science made by German Jews *is* German science (same with French Jews and French science, etc.)

>>15645940
>I see, I doubt it is weaponized, simply because the people who run this benefit massively from the current state of affairs.
I would disagree, but I doubt we're going to come to an agreement regarding this, considering my disagreement comes from the idea that Jewish members of the upper echelon conspire with each other.
>In my opinion they should be taken as just people working within the larger Western tradition, because that's functionally what they are (at least in those fields).
I agree, there are quite a few Jews in intellectual fields. Again, though, I place more weight on massive/foundational innovations than I do on things like proving esoteric theorems, which have very little if at all Jewish (or Asian) representation. Again though, I don't believe all Jews are in on some deliberate conspiracy. The majority of them are fairly normal outside of natural nepotism from, like the other anon put it, self-defense tactics. These Jewish mathematicians/scientists were ignorant in regards to such things.
>>15645940
>There is, some eras are more foundational than others.
I disagree, and even so I would say the 17th century was much, much more foundational than recent ones (Fermat, Leibniz, Newton, Descarte, Pascal). In fact, I don't see how anyone would really consider the 16th/18th/19th century more impactful. I can't say much regarding the 20th century, as I know a lot more about math than I do science.
>>15646004
I'm having a very difficult time replying to so many people and am kind of losing track of each of these conversations. Like I say in the above response, I don't know very much at all in terms of scientific discovery. I will say, though, that when I talk about French/British/German mathematics, all of these people were also of that ethnicity, and I generally refer to a discovery's discoverer as their ethnicity also, i.e Einstein was a Jew and so I attribute the theory of relativity to Jews, not Germans (or more specifically, German-Jews).

>>15645904
>I find it hard to believe that income and highschool education would account for such massive gaps between Jewish and Asian Ivy league students
Diversity quotas and the like massively fuck up the stats, I agree they are a problem. We should look at stats from a time before diversity quotas but several decades after the bulk of Asian immigration.
Also it's not income and highschool only, I can't stress enough the fact that most Jewish immigrants in the US were largely culturally German. That gives them a headstart in terms and language and culture compared to Asians.
You could sum it up by saying that Jews are like white Asians, so in a white country it's normal they succeed even more than Asians.

> why is it then that white's don't make up such a large amount also, considering the population of whites and the amount of rich whites there are?
There are more poor whites. If you want to really compare you should adjust for not only income but social class. A descendant from a Mayflower family isn't comparable to a random Irishman.

>Whites, due to their large populations I would say, generally aren't nepotistic
Yes, white identity is more diluted because white are a majority and made up of many rather distinct people (English, Germans, Irish, Italians...). Things are different for, eg, rich whites in South Africa.

>This is true, but the south makes up half of the east coast
True, I was thinking in demographic more than geographic terms. Basically, using the terminology from Seeds of Albion, I see the Jews as being more integrated within Puritains and Quakers than Borderers and Cavaliers.
>the fact that they were on equal terms citizenship wise with the original Saxons
Is that true? That seems very surprising, although I suppose the Quakers wouldn't have minded.

>It would only make sense for Jews to side with the protestants here rather than the Italians and especially the Irish.
Yes it makes sense, and you're right about the troubles. However the protestant in the US fled mostly protestants countries iirc. So I'm not sure how much animosity they would have towards Catholics. Nonetheless you make a fair point.

>I really doubt that there was much mixing of communities or gangs going on between both themselves and the Jews.
Mixing as in marrying perhaps not so much, but "business" partnership, extremely. I remember reading a book about Murder Inc. called Jewish connection. You can look up both the book and Murder Inc. (a kind of professional assassin syndicate). Their history speaks volumes about the link between Jewish and Italian mafias, they were distinct entities but close and often working together -and often rivaling (kinda like the different families within Italian mafia itself). I believe there are high-ranking Jewish advisers in the New York mafia to this day.

>Go on the front page of somewhere like Pornhub sometime, and you'll see that the entire recommended sections are filled with incest
I can agree with that.

>>15645955
The guy you're quoting is OP.

>>15646044
>Again, though, I place more weight on massive/foundational innovations than I do on things like proving esoteric theorems
Depends where you draw the line, proving esoteric theorems is pretty central in math. Grothendieck for instance was all about fondations, he might be the most fondation-obsessed mathematician in history.

> The majority of them are fairly normal outside of natural nepotism from, like the other anon put it, self-defense tactics.
I suppose that's a reasonable way of putting it. The jewish part of my family is pretty much made up of Arabs boomers, so that's how I tend to picture the average Jews. I agree that some Jewish elites in America are doing shady stuff, although I'd expect other elites to be joining them in that.

>I disagree, and even so I would say the 17th century was much, much more foundational than recent ones (Fermat, Leibniz, Newton, Descarte, Pascal).
This is a bit of a contradicted statement. Certainly the 17th century is extremely important, and the guys you mentioned are among the most important. However it's undeniable that, for instance, logic made huge leaps in the 19th and 20th century that have little equivalent in the three centuries prior. You could make a similar argument for group theory starting with Galois, let's not forget Fourier and the wealth of Gauss, Weierstrass and Riemann's work.

>the 16th
That was my mistake, I meant the 17th
>19th century
That's when math as we understanding took form. Before that the way of writing and proving things was rather different (and writing and proofs are central to math). Most of Euler's proof wouldn't be tolerated in an undergrad homework nowadays, while most big proofs from the 19th century would more or less fit the bill.

>discovery's discoverer as their ethnicity also, i.e Einstein was a Jew and so I attribute the theory of relativity to Jews, not Germans (or more specifically, German-Jews).
That's were we disagree, a discovery isn't made in isolation by thinkers uniquely expressing their ethnicity. The entire work of Einstein's is also a consequent of previous works. As I said, relativity is there in Maxwell's equation, Poincaré was the first to get the equation of relativity right, most of Einstein's disciple and student of relativity were not Jewish (many were not German either). Einstein's works were written in German and English, within the context of German and American science, and intended to German (and more largely European and American) scientists. It take a complete rewriting of the tradition to ignore that fact.
So you can attribute relativity to Jews if you want, it's still a part of German and more largely Western science. Take away the parts made by non-Jews and very little remain. Ignore the contribution of Jews and the discovery potentially doesn't happen.
Hence my conclusion: science made by Jews in an European context, for European purposes, and in European language, is still European science.

>>15646209
*as we understand it now

>>15630625
what do you think about elliot wolfson's scholarship? I'm also curious if you are familiar with British kabbalah (Henry Moore, Anne Conway) from the 16th century or the Christian kabbalah of Rosenroth and Helmont and what your opinion of it is.